Native Warm Season Grass

[dbltree]

Native Warm Season Grass plantings are beautiful and provide great nesting and bedding areas and a diverse environment for all types of wildlife.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/7713rd_year_NWSG_Mix.jpg

There are several options for establishing NWSG stands but the method I prefer and by which I have established all my own stands, is dormant/frost seeding in Feb./March. You can easily establish small areas of NWSG with nothing more then a hand seeder, backpack sprayer and burning.

I start the year before by first mowing or haying the area in late summer and then killing the sod with roundup in late September.

A no-till drill is an excellent and accurate method of planting into killed sod even on frozen ground in late winter. The seed need only make soil contact so covering it isn't necessary.

All of mine however has been planted by hand with a broadcast hand seeder. The seed is fluffy and difficult to get thru most hand seeders or drills. Reading thru this thread you will see that there are seeders designed specifically for fluffy seed.

My first stands took 3 years to establish during which time I mowed once a year about 8-12" high to prevent harming the new NWSG seedlings but keeping heavy weed competition from suffocating the seedlings.

Eventually I used Plateau herbicide (now Journey) for much quicker establishment. After that burning every 3-5 years keeps the stands from being overrun by invasive's.

This thread covers all types of information on establishing NWSG and includes many great links:

NWSG Establishment (http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publications/pbfiles/PB1752_C5.pdf)

Native Warm Season Grasses in the mid-south (http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publications/pbfiles/PB1746.pdf)

Identify NWSG (http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publications/pbfiles/PB1752_cover-intro.pdf)

Establishing Native Warm-Season Grasses in Missouri (http://www.mdc.mo.gov/landown/grass/w_season/warmgras/)

NWSG in Ohio (http://ohioline.osu.edu/agf-fact/0022.html)

Prairie Grassland Habitat Management (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/portals/9/PDF/pub387.pdf)

Warm Season Grass Management in Indiana (http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/hunt/warmgrass.pdf)

NWSG in Kentucky (http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/agr/agr145/agr145.pdf)

Dormant seeding wildflowers (http://www.filebox.vt.edu/users/jodaniel/Dormant.html)

Compare NWSG with Cool Season Grasses (http://www.greenwichtownship.com/OpenSpace/WarmGrass_leaflet_Maryland.pdf)

Native Grass Community (http://www.esd.ornl.gov/facilities/nerp/ORR_native_grass_management_plan.pdf)

NRCS / NWSG and Wildlife (http://policy.nrcs.usda.gov/media/pdf/tn_b_39_a.pdf)

Riparian Buffers (http://www.buffer.forestry.iastate.edu/Assets/FAQ.pdf)

NWSG and Quail (http://www.qu.org/content/news/mdc/article.cfm?id=149)

Effects of seeding date and native cover crops on prairie establishment (http://www.iowalivingroadway.com/pdfs/07wilsey.PDF)

Home Grown Prairies (http://www.texasprairie.org/Resources/HomeGrownPrairies.shtml)

NWSG Links (http://www.wildlifemanagement.info/native_grass_mgt.htm)

NRCS Plant Trials (http://www.plant-materials.nrcs.usda.gov/ndpmc/pubs/ndpmcbk10GNP-WS.pdf)

NWSG Seed Sources

John Osenbaugh, Lucas IA, has Journey tolerant NWSG Mixes. John had a hard time convincing me that winter/frost seeding was the best and most natural way to plant...but he was absolutely right!

Osenbaugh Grass & Wildflower Seeds (http://www.tuttglobal.com/us/osenbaugh/des-moines.htm)

Osenbaugh’s Prairie Seed Farms (http://www.prairieseedfarms.com/)

Welter seed (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=18&org=0)

Roundstone Prairie Seed (http://www.roundstoneseed.com/)

Seeding Rates (http://www.ernstseed.com/switchgrass_planting_quide_seed_rates.htm)

TECHNICAL GUIDE- Sharp Bros Seed (http://www.sharpseed.com/pdf/ESTABLISHING%20NATIVE%20GRASSES.pdf)

Ion Exchange - Native Seed & Plant Nursery (http://www.ionxchange.com/)

Higgins Outdoors (http://www.higginsoutdoors.com/outdoors/habitat-improvements.htm) (seed and planting)

PF Quick Guide:

Pheasants Forever Grasslands (http://www.orgs.muohio.edu/pheasantsforever/programs/documents/Quickguidegrasslandestabl.pdf)

Herbicides:

Journey herbicide label (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld6H1010.pdf) (Plateau and Glyphosate combo)

Plateau herbicide Label (http://www.nebraskapf.com/PDFs/Plateau%20Label-2002.pdf)

Paramount Label (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld28H003.pdf)

Paramount Source (http://naturchemstore.net/detail.cfm?ID=99&Desc=Panoramic)

Outrider herbicide Label (http://www.biotechgoodtogrow.com/monsanto/ag_products/pdf/labels_msds/outrider_label.pdf)

Native Warm Season Grass and forb establishment using imazapic and 2,4-D (http://www.wildlifemanagement.info/files/nwsg_15.pdf)

USING HERBICIDES TO ESTABLISH NATIVE PRAIRIE GRASSES AND FORBS (http://www.soils.wisc.edu/extension/FAPM/proceedings/4C.harvey.pdf)

Study comparing the use of glyphosate to imazapic for killing fescue and establishing NWSG and also shows NWSG no-tilled into killed sod: NWSG for erosion control (http://www.forester.net/ec_0011_native.html)

NRCS/NWSG Work Sheet (http://www.plant-materials.nrcs.usda.gov/pubs/mipmctn5652.pdf)

Effects of Fire on Upland Grasses and Forbs (http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/habitat/fire/grasforb.htm)

Prescribed Burning:A Critical Habitat Restoration Tool (http://www.grinnell.edu/academic/biology/cera/vvinfo/includes/Burn-Talk.pdf)

PRESCRIBED BURNING (http://www.dnr.state.mi.us/publications/pdfs/huntingwildlifehabitat/landowners_guide/habitat_mgmt/grassland/Prescribed_Burning.htm)


Quote:

Growing Prairies Successfully


I. Two important things to remember.

A. Place seed so it can imbibe moisture from the capillary action of water in firm soil.

B. Plants receive all their energy from the sun so competing canopy must be controlled.

II. Prairie seedlings can not tolerate competition.

A. Regarding the growing season prior to year of prairie seeding.

1. Do not produce any weed seeds on growing area that could sprout and compete against the prairie seedlings.

a. Frequent light tillage will do this if the site is non erosive. Mowing will not do it because plants will head out shorter each time after a mowing and can make viable seed shorter than a field mower can mow. A lawn or turf type mower may be an exception but not practical for a large area.

b. Chemicals such as 2-4D for broadleaves and Roundup for the grassy weeds will kill annuals and thus stop weed seed production.
2. Kill perennial vegetation.

a. With chemicals, the most complete and cheapest kill is when plants are sending carbohydrates down (after heading) to the roots refueling them for the next growing season.

b. Cool season grasses--apply Roundup from September 15th thru October 15th.

c. Scout and inventory all target weeds and tell your herbicide salesperson what you are trying to kill.

d. Broadleaf weeds--apply 2-4D or Banvel to late bud to early bloom stage. Do not plant for 10 days.

e. Most grasses and some broadleaf perennials can be killed in the spring of the seeding year with heavier application rates and of course, more cost per acre, but the kill will be more complete.

f. For the best kill, apply chemical, wait ten or more days and then do heavy tillage.

B. Regarding first growing season (seedling year) of prairies.

1. Use repeated pre-planting light tillage to encourage weed sprouting and weed seedling destruction until you eventually deplete the weed seed bank to a tolerable level prior to planting. Used mostly by those who do not like chemicals or are planting in a field with high weed pressure. A June 10th planting works good except some forbs and switchgrass benefit from early spring planting. When last tillage is done at night, the weed seeds don’t sprout very well.

2. Use pre-emergence or early post emergence chemicals.

a. Switchgrass or Big Bluestem—Use Dual (l quart/acre) pre-emergence to stop germination of grassy weeds. Atrazine, princep or Simazine @ 1 quart/acre will stop germination of broadleaf weeds. One quart of Bicep is best to stop both broadleaf and grass weeds. Pre-emergence works best when applied early enough to get activated by 1” of rain before the soil temperature warms enough to sprout weed seeds.

b. Bluestem, Indiangrass, Gramas and some forbs—use four ounces Plateau pre-emergence or early post emergence to prevent broadleaf and grass weeds from sprouting. Poor results on Pigweed family. Four ounces of Pursuit works equally well but not labeled.

c. Pure grass prairies—2-4D is good to kill broadleaf weeds but is not labeled for any grasses with 4 leaves or less, so use minimum rate to minimize damage to grass seedlings. Use Buctril for very small weeds, it’s easier on the grasses.

3. Mowing or grazing as often as needed to ensure the prairie seedlings get direct sunlight. Cutting off the top of prairie seedlings is okay. Do not leave a heavy windrow that could smother seedlings. Mowing six times is best the first year.

4. Delayed planting because of pre-plant tillage, use of herbicides, mowing, or grazing will stress your prairie seedlings. It is our contention that weed competition will stress them even more, so then it is best to take one of the above actions.

C. Prairie seeds need to be firmly embedded into moist soil to sprout.

Embedded depth in this case is 4 times the length or 8 times the diameter of the seed. Most tiny forb seeds need light to germinate.

1. Drill seed the last 30 days before the ground freezes for the winter.

a. Southern Iowa—this is from November 10th thru December 10th.
b. One-fourth planted this way now.

c. Do not need a perfect seedbed for this method.

2. Broadcast (not mechanically incorporated) seed on bare ground or non-crusted snow from The Freeze up to February 28th.

a. The best way to get quick thick stand of switchgrass.

b. Very popular for planting Prairie Mixes.

c. Handy way to plant steep banks or seepy wet bottom ground.

d. Fast way using airplane, 4-wheeler or pickup.

e. Heaving action of the ground and settling of the seeds gets the bottom half of the seed embedded into the soil.

f. Natural Resource Conservation Services (NRCS) requires 50% extra seed when non-mechanically incorporating.

3. Plant into firm moist soil when ground becomes workable in spring.
a. No till with a modern drill
i. Switchgrass seed uses same seed box as clover or alfalfa.
ii. Other prairie grass seeds and forbs with umbrellas require a fluffy box on the drill or a lot of flow able material mixed with it, will carry it through a grain seed broadcaster (not small seed broadcaster). Sand, silica clay, fertilizer or small grain will work for this.
iii. Coulters usually not needed.

A. Coulters help heavy field trash flow through the drill better.
B. Coulters help open up sod so seed is planted in soil and not left
hanging in the leaves and residue.
iv. Burning off residue greatly improves seed placement to get much better seed to soil contact.
b. Drilling or broadcasting into tilled soil.
i. Old rule of thumb…” that a seed bed should be firm enough that a foot print is no deeper than the thickness of a leather shoe sole” still is in effect. This firm seedbed will not have a lot of excess air to dry the seed out plus it will have a lot of capillary pores feeding moisture continuously up to the seed.

ii. If broadcasting (including older drills that used no drop tubes) onto a firm seedbed roll seed into the soil with a field roller or tractor tires, pickup tires etc. Do not harrow in seed because it gets the seed too deep. Packing does a better job of embedding the seed tightly. Use catch pans to monitor evenness of spread pattern and to evaluate seeding rate. Forty seeds per square foot is good for most small seeds.
iii. If drilling with a drill equipped with press wheels, be extremely careful so you do not bury the seed too deep. Drill on a firm seedbed.

iv. Switchgrass seed planted after April 15th benefits from being aged or wet stratified to lesson the dormancy so it will sprout better.

4. Identify new seedlings.

a. Pull plants and identify seed shell that seedling is growing from.

b. Prairie grasses have thinner leaves than the grass weeds.

c. Prairie grasses have deeper roots.

d. Switchgrass has peach fuzz hair on top of the leaf next to the stem.

e. Indiangrass has a tongue protruding up when leaf is pulled away from stem.

f. Bluestems are very hairy all over.
5. Second growing season.

a. Do not burn unless you thoroughly examine the stand to make sure no roots are exposed from the heaving of prairie plant under 6” tall.

b. If you want your prairie grass full size and weed free the second year, apply the herbicides mentioned earlier and fifty pounds actual nitrogen (pure grass prairies only) anyway you want and watch it grow.

c. Without herbicides it may require one early mowing to hold weeds back.

6. Third growing season and thereafter.

a. Apply fifty pounds actual nitrogen per year (pure grass prairies only).

b. Burning is optional.
i. It can stimulate the plants some.
ii. Keeps out intruding woody species and cool season grasses.
iii. Holds down thatch buildup so the mice population won’t get high and encourage fox and coyote predators.
iv. To maintain a insect population so chicks have something to eat, burn only 1/3 of each prairie field each year.
D. Enjoy the beauty, abundant wildlife and the peace of mind from knowing your soil and water are being protected by the prairie.

Osenbaugh’s Prairie Seed Farms (http://www.prairieseedfarms.com/)

[dbltree]

I thought I would post some pictures of using Plateau (Journey) on my own NWSG plantings. I did some waterways in this case that had been left in brome. The elevator sprayed originally and skipped the waterways.
The first two are early summer, seed was frost seeded on killed sod, using a hand seeder in Feb., no mowing was done.
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/771Plateau_Treated_NWSG_1.JPG


You can see the clumps of WSG grass, wild flowers and yes...a few weeds, but also bare ground!

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/771Plateau_Treated_NWSG.JPG

and the results the same year later in the fall..

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/771End_of_summer_WSG_1st_yr_using_Plateau.JPG

[iowaqdm]

I am planning on putting in 40 acres of NWSG that are a "Journey Ready Mix" this Spring. The mix has Big Bluestem, Indiangrass, Little Bluestem, Sideoats Grama, Western Wheatgrass and several forbs. The mix doesn't have any Switchgrass in it. I have been told that switchgrass wont tolerate the Journey Spray. Is this true? What types of grasses are planted in your pictures dbltree? How tall did your grasses get that first year?

[dbltree]

I am planning on putting in 40 acres of NWSG that are a "Journey Ready Mix" this Spring. The mix has Big Bluestem, Indiangrass, Little Bluestem, Sideoats Grama, Western Wheatgrass and several forbs. The mix doesn't have any Switchgrass in it. I have been told that switchgrass wont tolerate the Journey Spray. Is this true? What types of grasses are planted in your pictures dbltree? How tall did your grasses get that first year?



Switchgrass seedlings can be damamged or set back some from Journey depending on rates. I used 12 oz's of Plateau (32 oz's Journey) and I did have a few switch seedling's come up in the mix. At 12 oz's Journey, switch will survive, but you may not have good weed control.

The best bet is to frost seed some switch the following winter, if you want to add it to your mix.

I have sprayed Plateau full strength on exisiting switchgrass stands to release it (becoming over grown with goldenrod) and I found it is nearly impossible to kill exisiting switchgrass! The stands came back strong!

Remember Journey contains Roundup so it must be applied before or at planting. (Plateau does not contain roundup)

My mix contained most of the items you mentioned and as you can see by the bottom picture, it made full height and went to seed the first year. The first WSG mix I planted took 3 years and repeated mowings!!

If you have heavy ground you will want to apply Journey at the highest rates for it to be effective.

Personally I will always prefer switchgrass for wildlife cover, so you may consider seeding Cav-n-rock switchgrass next winter.

[iowaqdm]

Thanks dbltree. I appreciate your response. I was thinking about exactly what you suggested concerning adding switchgrass after establishing the Journey ready mix. Would you suggest .5 pounds per acre for frost seeding? That seems to be the seeding rate in many of the tall warm season mixes. Or would you seed a little heavier (.75 - 1 pound) due to the fact that you are frost seeding and may not get a high germination rate. What is your experience with frost seeding NWSG and germination rates? A couple other questions. Is Cave-in-Rock switchgrass the type that reaches 5-6 foot tall? When you say your grass reached full height the first year was that 5-6 foot tall. You also said that Journey must be sprayed before or at time of planting due to having round-up in it. Wouldn't you want to spray postemergence due to the mix being "Journey Ready"? I am planning on having my seed drilled with a Truax native grass drill in stubble to help decrease erosion and weed competion associated with tilling the seed bed. The ground is mostly HEL and has been row cropped using no-till equipment. Any suggestions for my plan? How many times did you spray your stand the first year and when did you spray? Would you use Journey or the Plateau?

[dbltree]

Thanks dbltree. I appreciate your response. I was thinking about exactly what you suggested concerning adding switchgrass after establishing the Journey ready mix. Would you suggest .5 pounds per acre for frost seeding? That seems to be the seeding rate in many of the tall warm season mixes. Or would you seed a little heavier (.75 - 1 pound) due to the fact that you are frost seeding and may not get a high germination rate. What is your experience with frost seeding NWSG and germination rates? A couple other questions. Is Cave-in-Rock switchgrass the type that reaches 5-6 foot tall? When you say your grass reached full height the first year was that 5-6 foot tall. You also said that Journey must be sprayed before or at time of planting due to having round-up in it. Wouldn't you want to spray postemergence due to the mix being "Journey Ready"? I am planning on having my seed drilled with a Truax native grass drill in stubble to help decrease erosion and weed competion associated with tilling the seed bed. The ground is mostly HEL and has been row cropped using no-till equipment. Any suggestions for my plan? How many times did you spray your stand the first year and when did you spray? Would you use Journey or the Plateau?



the seeding rate on switch would depend on how much you value switch over the other grasses. Switch will stay standing even after heavy snows...to me it is the ultimate and it will quite often dominate after enough years. Big bluestem stands pretty well until it snows then I'm not that impressed. Most seed mixes don't have much switch simply because they know it will eventually take over at higher rates. If you want a home for big bucks...plant thick!

Frost seeding is the natural way prairie grass regenerates in the wild...it did so for thousands of years with only a little help form Native Americans burning it off so they could catch up with the buffalo!

The truax drill is excellent and should do the trick! You have the option next winter of using the drill for the switch or just broadcasting it.

Anymore I just broadcast cause I hate paying the $50.00 hookup fee and general pain in the butt going to get it, etc....but 40 acres is a lot...so the drill is well worth it! I have used the drill on frozen ground in midwinter also...all you want is soil/seed contact...no need to "cover" it.

My WSG mix was easily head high by fall the first year, switchgrass will grow that fast if you use Atrazine, but that means it must be planted seperate from other grasses and wildflowers. (I've found the wildflowers to be an expensive waste...the grasses dominate after just a few years...)
CAUTION - Journey Ready means only that the mix is tolerant to the residual effects of the herbicide!! DO NOT spray it on emerged plants unless you want to kill them!!!

I'd say your plan sounds like a winner!

[bjkpharmd]

Iowaqdm- I would avoid the switch completely especially the Cave variety unless that is what you want. It will out-compete the forbs and quite a few other grass species. So why spend the money on a nice mix? Plant a switch stand for cover in another spot or a bedding area near the diversified stand.

[iowaqdm]

Thanks for all the advice dbltree. What rate would you recommend for Journey when spraying (32oz per acre) and how many days before planting should I have the ground sprayed? My guess would be 14 days?

[dbltree]

Thanks for all the advice dbltree. What rate would you recommend for Journey when spraying (32oz per acre) and how many days before planting should I have the ground sprayed? My guess would be 14 days?



If your ground is heavy clay or clay loam I would use the higher rate of at least 32 ounces to get enough resisdual control. You can spray it on even a few days after you plant...just as long as it hasn't started to germinate. The prarie grasses are just what they say...WARM SEASON...so they don't germinate quickly in the spring like clover or cool season grasses. I would no-till the seed in as early as possible...like anytime now. Then spray at first sign of any green up. Weeds and grasses will start to green up first....long before the WSG mix. The Journey herbicide has Roundup in it, so this will kill any early flush of weeds growth, then the active ingredient Imapazic will provide season long weed control.

Pharmer is right...you may not want to seed Switchgrass on all of your area...again it depends on what you want from your cover. Some areas with out switch will make better and more diversified nesting cover for upland birds. Both quail and pheasants often prefer a little more "clumpy" semi open areas where broods can feed. Clover and alfalfa are excellent planted next to your WSG mix as the broods will feed on the insects drawn to the flowering legumes, which are short enough for hens to see over, but provide cover for broods.

In the end, despite anything else that you hear...if you want the BEST cover on your HEL for deer...plant switchgrass. That's something each landowner must decide for themselves though.

[iowaqdm]

Thanks again dbltree. I got more information from you in just a couple posts than I got from talking to the NRCS, a DNR Private Land Biologist and a PF habitat coordinator. I appreciate all your input. On the Switchgrass, I have about 40 acres of CRP that is in Brome grass that I am planning on converting in '07 to NWSG. If this Journey Mix works like you guys say than I will plant it on that 40 acres as well. I will then frost seed Switchgrass in about 20-25 acres of it that lays between two brushy draws that are a mix of oaks and ceders. The deer already like to bed in these two draws so with switchgrass between them it should make a monster buck safe haven. Can't wait! Thanks again.

[dbltree]

Pharmer sent me the ISU Test results from the prairie establishment demo plots and then I asked Greg Brenneman - ISU Extension Ag Engineering Spec. to send me any other information from his research. It's been awhile but he finally emailed them to me. Very good supportive information on establishing prarie grasses and using herbicides. Specific #'s of seed to use in NWSG mixes and general information on both Switchgrass and NWSG mixes.
If anybody would like this information...PM me with your email and I will forward it on to you. There are three different papers which you can save to your puter or print out for great reference.

Some pictures to compare mature stands of NWSG mix and pure Switchgrass

NWSG MIX

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/771Mature_NWSG.JPG


NWSG mix - you can see the two dominant species are Indiangrass and Big Bluestem. No evidence of wildflowers and short species such as little bluestem.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/771NWSG_Mix.jpg

Mature Switchgrass stand - in summer all types of prairie grass are quite thick. If upland birds are a priority then some stands of short species or alfalfa would be better for brood rearing.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/771Mature_Switchgrass.JPG

[dbltree]

I seeded 2 acres of NWSG mix with a Truax Seed Slinger today: Truax Slinger (http://www.truaxcomp.com/seed-slinger.html)

http://www.truaxcomp.com/images/slinger-tall.jpg

I used the hand held version, which full of seed was pretty darn heavy when full of seed. The seeder worked flawlessly as far as handling the fluffy seed, however it only threw the seed maybe 8 ft at most. The seed is "fluffy" of course and won't throw very far, but I found it difficult to crank the handle fast enough to throw the seed far enough. I expect that the ATV mounted version would be better. The Slinger certainly worked much better then trying to stuff it thru a regular hand seeder!

The Slinger also has a seperate compartment for small seeds like clover or switchgrass.
Of course if you can borrow one of these it makes the job a whole lot easier!!
RANGELAND Drill ROUGH RIDER - MODEL: RR-1210 (http://www.truaxcomp.com/rangeland.html)

http://www.truaxcomp.com/images/rangeland-top.jpg

[dbltree]

I just sprayed the area that I frost seeded with Plateau. It would have been better to do it earlier but you can see in this pic that everything is starting to die. To much foliage to see if any of the new NWSG seedlings are coming up yet....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Goldenrodjustsprayed.jpg

[dbltree]

I know many of you have NWSG plantings which by now have you searching for new seedlings. They are nearly impossible to find if herbicide hasn't been used and even then it's pretty tough.

Here's a pic of mature Big Bluestem in late spring:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BBluesteminspring.jpg

This is a new Big Bluestem seedling in the area shown in the previous post. Frost seeded by with a hand spreader in very late winter, then sprayed with Plateau (now Journey)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BigBluewithplateauherbicide.jpg

Note the difference in vegetation after the Plateau started working!
Here's is a more likely look at a seedling, no idea which type it is...but it is a NWSG seedling because everything else is stone cold dead! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/PlateautreatedNWSGSeedling.jpg

NWSG can be established without herbicide of course, but don't have a hairy if you can't find any plants this summer /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

[TimberPig]

The CP25 I planted this spring is doing pretty well, as are the weeds growing along with it. I just finished my 2nd mowing last week, and the 3rd mowing wont be far behind after this weeks 2" rainfall. I havent a clue which NWSG is up so far, but I'm guessing weeds and foxtail dont grow in rows!
So far the grass is 8"-12" tall, and a few wildflowers are blooming to boot.
That herbicide would sure be a nice option.

[dbltree]

The CP25 I planted this spring is doing pretty well, as are the weeds growing along with it. I just finished my 2nd mowing last week, and the 3rd mowing wont be far behind after this weeks 2" rainfall. I havent a clue which NWSG is up so far, but I'm guessing weeds and foxtail dont grow in rows!

So far the grass is 8"-12" tall, and a few wildflowers are blooming to boot.
That herbicide would sure be a nice option.





Sounds like it's doing great TP!

[dbltree]

A few notes on NWSG from the CRP field day... (this post is full of pics so if you have dial up your going to hate me /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

First they wanted to make sure everyone understood not to get frustrated the first year thinking your planting was a failure (been there done that /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif)

The sample plots showed how much faster you can have a stand by using herbicide, but that even without it they still had decent stands 3 years later.

The varety plots really hit home and several types really stood out as agressive and long lived, so I'll share a few pics of what I found.

This planting was frost seeded on 3/13/03, Plateau on right, untreated on left.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Plateaurightuntreatedleft.jpg

Frost seeded NWSG on 02/27/04, mowed twice in 04 no herbicide. Mostly Canada Wild Rye and forbs this year but tall grasses are in there if you walk thru it.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FrostseededNWSG04.jpg

Frost seeded 03/03/02 and treated with Plateau at 4 oz's, the untreated looked thinner but there none the less

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FrostseededNWSG2002plateau.jpg

Aldous Little Bluestem was spreading into many surrounding plots. Great stuff for pheasant nesting habitat. I would ask for it in your NWSG mix if possible! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/LittleblestemAldous.jpg

Another good little blue but not quite as agressive and switchgrass was invading this plot.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/LittleBluestemCamper.jpg

The following Big Bluestem varieties were doing well and very tall!


http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ChampBigBluestem.jpg

Roundtree BB not quite as tall..

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RoundtreeBigBluestem.jpg

Niagra BB...good stuff! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NiagraBigBluestem.jpg


Kaw BB was much shorter and thin...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/KawBigBluestem.jpg

Pawnee BB

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/PawneeBigBluestem.jpg

Roundtree BB

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RoundtreeBigBluestem-1.jpg


Rumsey Indiangrass:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RumseyIndianGrass.jpg

Tomahawk Indiangrass:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TomahawkIndiangrass.jpg

Side Oats Grama was very thin, very short grass that prefers very dry sites, more common west of here. Most of the plots were overtaken by other species as in this case where what you see is mostly Little Bluestem.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SideOatsGrama.jpg

The ISU research farm is located south and east of Crawfordsville (east of 218 on G-62, then north to the farm) You can stop by and see these plots anytime /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[dbltree]

Here's some pics of first year Indiangrass that I used Plateau on. It was broadcast on mowed ground in very early spring. No tillage involved but I used 12 oz of plateau and one quart of Roundup (Journey is that combination now)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/IndiangrassinSept.jpg

One thing that's kind of interesting is that one patch got so thick and heavy that it has already went flat...hard to expect much of it for winter cover if it can't make it thru the summer standing up.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Indiangrassdown.jpg

I have noticed that Indiangrass seems to be spreading in one field (wind carried seed) but in another "wild big bluestem" is spreading. I'm not sure where it came from except it has spread from across the road, into the ditch and into my field...which is ok with me. This native BB does go very flat in the winter while some that I have planted stands up much better.

Choosing species for standability and dominance would be worth while

[dbltree]

Yesterday I charperoned a bunch of teens on an all day tour of The Neil Smith Wildlife Refuge near Prairie City. Neal Smith National Wildlife Refuge (http://www.tallgrass.org/)

Many of you have already visited the refuge but those who have not, I highly reccommend stopping by.

If you have even the slightest interest in establishing NWSG and forbs this is an excellent place to see every type of prairie plant imaginable...most with out leaving the sidewalk (in fact...leaving the walkway will get you in trouble)

Inside they have a 3 screen theater and a history exhibit of all things prairie.

One of the first displays you will see, is a cutaway of prairie plants and soil with the very thing I keep telling those in the process of starting NWSG.

"Prairie plants grow down not up the first year. It also shows the tremendous depths that prairie plant roots can grow too, giving them the ability to hold and improve soil as well as survive droughts.

It underscores the fact that most new NWSG plantings will show little if any growth for several years.

I often wondered why Canada Wild Rye is included in NWSG mixes as it disappears after a year or two. I asked the Ranger about it and he called it a declining perennial and it acts much the same as rye would as a nurse crop for clover. It comes on strong to hold back weeds until the NWSG seedlings begin to grow up.

I would urge anyone who hasn't been there to visit...as a reminder that 85% of Iowa was once covered with prairie and to see a little bit of history being restored.

A large portion of the 5000 acre refuge is open to pheasant and deer hunting BTW http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[bjkpharmd]

Sounds like a great field trip. We have about a 9 acre remnant that has responded beautifully to some fire over the last 5 years. I've been collecting seed and "encouraging" the natives. Some of the poor soil areas are really taking off where the old brome was struggling.
This is one of the "encouraged areas"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/ic-epi/2005_10080012.jpg

[dbltree]

The ranger said they burn at least every other year. I think that is the ticket to NWSG for sure. I've never seen NWSG fail from "too much" burning. I would think in your case, late burning would help set back cool seasons and keep the WSG coming on strong.

I'm not really sure when the proper time to collect seed is...I suppose right about in the middle of hunting season

I've got some nice Little bluestem just starting to go to seed...how the heck does one collect that fuzzy stuff??

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/LittleBluestem.jpg

I really like Little Bluestem for pheasant nesting cover, note the red/blue hues that LB that change the plants apppearance especially after frosts.


http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/LittleBluestem1.jpg


How long would it take to collect enough seed to plant an acre??

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/LittleBlustem2.jpg

Here's a link to more good pics of Little Bluestem and the fluffy little "spikelets": Little Bluestem (http://www.lib.ksu.edu/wildflower/littlebluestem.html)

Here are some more pics of Little Bluestem (Schizachyrium scoparium) and supporting information:





The dominant forage of the True Prairie and considered one of the "big four" grasses. The leaves often have a blue-green appearance and the stems are flattened, especially near the base of the plant.

It has a single inflorescence which emerges from a slightly inflated leaf. It provides screening and nesting cover for some wildlife species and good forage for cattle.





Little Bluestem is often confused with Broomsedge Bluestem (Andropogon virginicus):






Typically occurs on infertile, moist soils and is a common grass of go-back lands. Similar to Little bluestem but with a split inflorescence and a more straw-colored appearance when dormant.

It provides screening and nesting cover for some wildlife species. It is a poor to fair forage for cattle.






Look for the difference between the two in this way:





It is easily mistaken for common broomsedge (Andropogon virginicus) except little bluestem has very flat bluish basal shoots.

Broomsedge has a straight awn and has two or more stalked seed clusters per branch. Little bluestem has a twisted, bent awn and a single cluster of seeds per branch.






LB Awns




Broomsedge awns

http://plants.usda.gov/gallery/large/anvi2_009_lvp.jpg

Broomsedge is rare in Iowa: broomsedge bluestem in Iowa (http://www.eeob.iastate.edu/research/iowagrasses/speciespages/AndroVirgi/AndroVirgi.html)



Although broomsedge is a close relative of big bluestem (Andropogon gerardii), it is not a Midwestern prairie grass and is not common in Iowa. In fact, its occurrence in Iowa is documented by one specimen from Wapello county, collected in 1941 by Dr. Ada Hayden, the former curator of ISU’s herbarium and the first woman to earn a doctorate from Iowa State.

Dr. Tom Rosberg (Drake University) also reports occurrences of this species in Appanoose and Ringgold Counties. Broomsedge is a common weedy plant in the eastern and southern U.S., where it occurs in abandoned fields, hillsides and thin woods. It is frequently found in disturbed areas, and is considered an indicator of poor soil.





This link contains more great pics of both of these plants as well as other NWSG's

NWSG Identification and description (http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publications/pbfiles/PB1752_C1.pdf)

http://extension.missouri.edu/explore/images/mp0903broomsedge03.jpg

Good soil fertlity can make broomsedge "go away"...



This native warm-season grass is often confused with little bluestem.

Compared with little bluestem, broomsedge stems are the more flattened and more densely leafed.

Also, broomsedge in the fall/winter is typically yellowish tan, while little bluestem has a bronzy color. It is usually no more than 2 feet tall at maturity. Seeds are light and fluffy. Dense stands are often indicative of acid soils, phosphorus deficiency or overgrazing.

Lime and fertilizer application may cause broomsedge to decline or disappear.








This is perhaps a better picture of broomsedge bluestem in the field:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/0040brsedgehabit.jpg

and a seed pic

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/0040brsedgeseed2.jpg

Little Bluestem



Little bluestem is found throughout the Midwest on moderately dry (mesic) to dry soils.

This native grass occurs in clumps with fine leaves less than 1/4 inch wide. Seed stalks are commonly 2 to 3 feet tall, but may reach 4 feet on better soils.

Stems are hairy and flattened near the base. Seeds are light and fluffy, giving the plant a feathery appearance.

Little bluestem has a striking appearance after frost, when it attains a coppery hue.

This grass is commonly confused with broomsedge.







Little Bluestem is a clump grass

http://extension.missouri.edu/explore/images/mp0903littlebluestem02.jpg

Which really shows up after burning

http://extension.missouri.edu/explore/images/mp0903littlebluestem03.jpg



Little bluestem seeds are light and fluffy, covered in fine hairs



http://extension.missouri.edu/explore/images/mp0903littlebluestem04.jpg

[dbltree]

Here's a few fall pics of my 10 year old stand of NWSG. It is very beautiful grass and really neat cover.

This is Indiangrass and Big Bluestem which is over my head!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/IndiannBigBluestem.jpg

This particuler stand has bever been burned (although I hope to next year) and it is very very thick!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Indiangrass.jpg

I established that stand the hard way, since I had never heard of Plateau at that time but three years later it was an amazing transformation from the "dead sea" of brome that was there

[dbltree]

I haven't checked to see if the prices listed are current but if they are it seems that prairie grass seed is very reasonable right now /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Osenbaugh's Prairie Seed Farm (http://www.prairieseedfarms.com/)

I had heard seed was going up so I'll try to find out for sure...

Here's some more fall pics of Little Bluestem...you can notice it along road ways by the "fluffy white seed"...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/LittleBluestemseed.jpg

Little Bluestem prfers drier soils
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/LittleBluestemplants.jpg

This patch happens to be on some good moist low ground though...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/LittleBluestemPlanting.jpg

Like switchgrass it stands pretty well thru winter weather but isn't as tall or thick which is why quail prefer it.

Keep in mind that broomsedge bluestem prefers very poor soils and will most like appear in areas that are acidic and lacking in phosphorus.

[locust]

great pics all. Pharmer, thats about the nicest natural picture I've seen...really nice. I had natives planted this June. Many weeds, but there appears to be big blue identifiable...a bit thin, but I'm hoping it will thicken up in coming years. I have 2 questions, first, would it be too soon to burn next year? I have read that a first year burn is hard on the flowers and my DNR rep said wait until 2008 but I'd like to know your opinion. Second, I have areas of thistle(various kinds) spreading out. I tried to spot spray this summer, but anything I can do to knock these back a bit? they seem to be concentrated in a few areas. Dig them out? They seemed to grab hold in some areas that didn't have much native growth.

[dbltree]

I had natives planted this June. Many weeds, but there appears to be big blue identifiable...a bit thin, but I'm hoping it will thicken up in coming years. I have 2 questions, first, would it be too soon to burn next year?

It is generally better to wait several years before burning after establishing a new NWSG seeding.


If you want to invigorate a grass with a prescribed burn, the best time to burn is when that grass has 3 to 4 inches of new growth ... depending on the species. If you want to severely set back a grass, burn it just before it starts to develop seedheads.

In Iowa ...

Feb-March- early April burns are great for early forbs and cool season grasses and promoting new growth of shrubs in a timber stand.

May-June burns will invigorate a stand of warm season native grass but sets back cool season grasses and woody species and it can kill understory brush in a timber burn.

July-Sept burns can set back warm season native grasses if they are too thick and release forbs.






Here's a great link sent to me by Ibohunt65 : Long term results of different burn timing (http://spuds.agron.ksu.edu/J26.pdf)
They've been burning since 1928!!

Clip the thistles before they go to seed and spot spray. I always have them also and they can be tough to get rid of

This is a pic of some first year NWSG and switchgrass that I used Plateau herbicide on. Plateau is hard on switchgrass unless it's a mature stand.

The plants grow down not up the first year so there wouldn't be a whole lot to burn the first year.

Note the Big Bluestem in the background is much taller since it is resistant to Plateau.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FirstyearPlateau.jpg

This is switch in the foreground and NWSG in the background...you can barely see my son walking thru that stuff...and he's nearly 6'!!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSGMix-1.jpg

Closeup of NWSG mix...mostly Indiangrass in this pic.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG1-1.jpg

This is Little Bluestem in the foreground and switchgrass in the background:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/LBSnSwitchgrass.jpg

This is Big Bluestem...already "leaning"

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BigBluestem.jpg

I think I have some of Bonker's RR thistles

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DecNWSG.jpg

Once stands are established or if you have native stands that need to be released I think late spring burning is the best bet.

Burning sets back the cool season grasses and encourages the warm seasons. The NWSG seed is there...just give it a chance!

[dbltree]

Right now is a perfect time to get your NWSG mix planted /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Except for the wildflowers Big Bluestem and Indiangrass germinate much easier then switchgrass so you can plant all the way to the first of June.

Germination will be better for much of the mix though if seeded during the "wet/chill" period of late winter/early spring.

Right now you can broadcast or no-till drill on killed, mowed or burned sod and spray with Journey or Plateau as soon as grass greens up in early April.

Here's a pic of mostly Big Bluestem still standing after plenty of winter weather although most of the Indiangrass has went down.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BigBluesteminMarch.jpg

Not as thick as switchgrass but compared to brome...well there is no comparison. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

Brome:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Brome.jpg

Where would you want to bed if you were a deer or nest if a pheasant???

[turtlshell]

Nice pictures. Do you think it's possible that grasses that have "laid-down" happened because of competition? When you seed and then spray the green, you kill most of the competition which would allow for better root growth, right? Maybe it was planted too heavily too..??

Seems as though the prairie reconstructions I've been apart of, most were unwilling to spray after planting...they just couldn't convince the farmers that germination of native grasses and forbes is 10-21 days...and the farmers thought the green 4-6 days after planting was the GOOD stuff, when really it was the competition. The areas that were able to be sprayed after planting turned out to be a lot better plots two years after planting than those that weren't sprayed.

I offered up the idea spraying plantings when I worked for the Missouri Department of Conservation in St. Louis and they looked at me like I was on crack. I figured them of all people would enjoy the idea of that since the had me spraying (this or that) almost the whole time I was there. OH WELL, I'm glad to be back in Iowa, Missourian I am NOT!!!

[dbltree]

Do you think it's possible that grasses that have "laid-down" happened because of competition?

Maybe it was planted too heavily too..??







Standability is something that is a trait inherit to certain species or varieties among a species of grass.


I've seen one variety of corn go flat as a pancake while another with stood the wind in the same field.

Among species:

I have never seen any variety of switchgrass on any type of soil go flat.

It will bend under heavy snows but will return after the snow melts.

I have a wild native Big Bluestem (wind blown seed) that goes flat if you breathe on it while other varieties purchased from Osenbaugh Seeds stand nearly as well as the switchgrass.

Indiangrass seems to go down fairly easily sometimes before winter even and I have planted several varieties.

The NWSG mix provides a good diversified nesting mix as well as deer bedding area but sometimes not the best winter cover






Seems as though the prairie reconstructions I've been apart of, most were unwilling to spray after planting...they just couldn't convince the farmers that germination of native grasses and forbes is 10-21 days...and the farmers thought the green 4-6 days after planting was the GOOD stuff, when really it was the competition. The areas that were able to be sprayed after planting turned out to be a lot better plots two years after planting than those that weren't sprayed.







Spraying NWSG is like using herbicide on tree plantings...

Mowing will do the trick but growth will be slower and in the case of NWSG it often takes 3 years to get a good stand.

Herbicide is expensive so many choose to take the long route which is certainly understandable.

I just don't want to wait that long /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[locust]

is Journey/Plateau something a non-license can get a hold of? is it available at Farm and Fleets/TSC's? I haven't run acrossed it under that name. I'm thinking I should spray my areas in April and was wondering if I could get my hands on it.

[dbltree]

is Journey/Plateau something a non-license can get a hold of? is it available at Farm and Fleets/TSC's? I haven't run acrossed it under that name. I'm thinking I should spray my areas in April and was wondering if I could get my hands on it.



Journey can be ordered thru Townsend Chemical but remember it contains Roundup and must be sprayed on in very early spring before the WSG emerges.



Journey can be ordered through us. Cost per gallon is $130.00. Smallest container is
2 1/2 gallons. If order is 5 gallons or more, there is no freight cost. One
2 1/2 gallon container freight cost is $7.00. This is a stock item for us.
We do accept Master Card & VISA. You call and order 800-616-4221 or via
email.

Thanks for the inquiry.
Norman S Gantt
Gen / Ops Manager






Plateau is only available thru some Pheasants Forever chapters. Best bet is to contact your state/area PF biologist.

Plateau can be sprayed on at anytime.

[dbltree]

You can seed the "Fluffy" NWSG by hand but no matter if you do it by hand or with a drill you must use a seeder adapted for this type of seed.

Otherwise it will be a long frustrating day in the field /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

There are Truax (http://www.truaxcomp.com/) and Great Plains drills (http://www.greatplainsmfg.com/products/compact/compact.html) adapted for NWSG seed and many county conservation offices have them to rent for a few bucks an acre.

For only an acre or two...I use one of these Truax hand seeders built to handle fluffy seeds.

It is heavy and cumbersome but the only handseeder I'm aware of that will work.

It was an auger inside to pull the seed toward fingers that pull the seed downward:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TruaxFluffyseeder.jpg

It also has a front compartment to hold small seeds:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TruaxFluffyseeder1.jpg

Full of seed it's hard on the shoulders and the fluffy seed doesn't spread very far, so you may need some Advil at the end of the day! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSGSeedmix.jpg

Close up of the mix of Big Bluestem, Indiangrass and Little Bluestem seed:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSGSeed.jpg

Closeup of the wildflower and switchgrass seed in the mix.

Both these type of seeds are very dormant and need the wet/chill of late winter to stratify them so they will germinate.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Wildflowerandswitchgrassseed.jpg

I planted on sod that I killed last year with roundup and Plateau (Journey is a readily available combo of the two)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Plateautreated-1.jpg

NWSG mixes often may do better on poor soils, although certain species may dominate.

In this case switchgrass would have been better then this Indiangrass which went flat as a pancake on this rich moist soil.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/IniangrassinMarch.jpg

Seed prices have skyrocketed in part (so I'm told) because many NWSG seed producers are planning on plowing under thier native's to plant corn.

I'm not sure if this is fact or a "percieved possibilty" but there very well may be truth to it.

There has been no huge new CRP signup so there is no obvious reason for the price hike (kinda reminds of the situation with oil companies :/)

You can plant NWSG mix later in the spring and of course expensive residual herbicides may be left out.

You must kill the current vegetation with roundup which could even be done shortly after seeding (although the previous fall is best to allow vegeatation to die down)

Plan on clipping your new NWSG 8-10" high as weeds reach beyond that.

Without herbicide it wil take approximately 3 years to achieve a good healthy mature stand of NWSG but eventually you'll have a very diverse and beautiful stand of wildlife habitat! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[dbltree]

Tramping thru my prairie grass yesterday I took these pics of some Big Bluestem that went flat over the winter:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BigBluestemDown.jpg

You can see the Little Bluestem in the lower left corner...that stuff is like Switchgrass, almost never goes down:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BigBluestemFlat.jpg

This Native mix is in another field and it has stood better although protected by woods and a hillside.

A rooster pheasant scooted out from under some of it but if I got him in the pic...I can't make him out.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSGMix-2.jpg

Birds sure rely on the tallgrass even into late spring until crops and other cover starts to grow. http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif

[dbltree]

Here are some pics of my Native Grasses last week just to give those with new seedings an idea when they start to grow...not yet!
Big Bluestem on April 19th:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/04-17BigBluestem.jpg

Little Bluestem:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/04-17LittleBluestem.jpg

Switchgrass:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/04-17Switchgrass.jpg

This is an area at the edge of my prairie along a lane...so you can see that cool seasons are the only thing green at this point:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Aprilsodcomparison.jpg

I'll be burning these fields soon and it's easy to see why timing is important.

Had I burned a month ago...the cool seasons would have had a month and more to gain ground.

By waiting...fire will set back the cool seasons and when the NWSG starts to grow it will be able to compete and even dominate.

[dbltree]

I posted pictures of my burn in the switchgrass thread (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=QDM&Number=128006&page=0&v iew=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=4) but here's a pic of Big Bluestem about 10 days after the burn:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BigBluestemafterburn.jpg

The WSG greens up way faster when the ground is blackend and the "stubble" removed.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Prairieregrowth.jpg

I'll add some more pics soon but with all this rain I would need a "swamp buggy" to get near the place! http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[dbltree]

After burning the NWSG this past spring...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchfire2.jpg

it looks like this in August...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000207.jpg

Fire sure helps rejuvenate the tall grasses! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[dbltree]

Few September pics of my NWSG stands after being burned this past spring.

Indiangrass/Bigbluestem mix:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/IndiangrassnBigBluestem.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SeptNWSG1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SeptNWSG2.jpg

This along a mowed lane which gives a better idea how tall the native grass can get.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG3.jpg

Hard to show the "clumpy" nature of natives in this pic but it enables birds and other wildlife to travel in this "jungle" versus brome or fescue which is a solid mass and becomes a "desert waste land" for wildlife.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSGClumps.jpg

As a side note...the areas that I tilled up for a fire break exploded into a beautiful stand of...

ragweed! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RagweedBurnlane.jpg

If you want to enhance your NWSG stand for quail and pheasants...it's very easy! Just hit some areas with a disc or tiller and leave it alone!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RagweedPatch.jpg

I jumped several pheasants out of these ragweed strips so don't be afraid to think out side the box so to speak and have some "weedy areas" on your farm /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

If you have any pics to share of your own NWSG plantings...especially if they are new and "a work in progress"...please share them with us in this thread. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

Winter is a great time to tramp thru some Native Grass stands in the area and see how they are holding up under the weather, especially in a fairly hard winter such as we have been having.

I prefer pure stands of Cave In Rock switchgrass for best winter cover and mixed NWSG stands for diverse summer nesting and feeding areas and winter is a great time to learn why...

These are a series of pics taken in February 2008 of my own mixed NWSG stands to give you some idea how they are holding up after heavy winter ice and snow.

Really they have done pretty well but many areas still end up pretty flat.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG7.jpg

Other areas have fared better:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG6.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG8.jpg

You can see how snow tends to push the Big Bluestem and Indiangrass flat in sometimes large areas.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG9.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG4.jpg

This area looks amazing well! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG5.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG3-1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG4.jpg

This is some Little Bluestem growing on some poor soil in a thin area. Ilike LB but it doesn't compete very well with the Tallgrass.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/LittleBluestem-1.jpg

Interesting that after burning my Indiangrass has out competed the Big Bluestem in many areas?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Indiangrass2.jpg

Doesn't stand up well either though...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Indiangrass4.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Indiangrass3.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Indiangrass-1.jpg

I'll post some winter Switchgrass (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=125746&fpart=1) pics tomorrow for comparison. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[LoessHillsArcher]

Here is a chunk of brome we are hoping to burn this early May, it has some little blue stem and big blue stem coming through but there is much more laying they waiting to sprout. We thought about planting trees on the hillside but this is a large hot, dry south facing hillside, we were strongly encouraged to put in NWSG. Should be interesting seeing how it looks on a slightly steeper slope than flat ground, I hope it comes in full and thick.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/101_0302.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/107_0155.jpg

In this last picture you can sort of see some red tint that is the NWSG poking through

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/101_0278.jpg

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a chunk of brome we are hoping to burn this early May, it has some little blue stem and big blue stem coming through but there is much more laying they waiting to sprout. </div></div>

Remember to burn late if your going to use burning alone to encourage the native grasses. If you plan to kill the brome with roundup then you'll need to burn very early and spray the brome at first green up.

Keep us posted on your project! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[fullrut2]

once my grass matured it turned the corner on my farm.Almost no people in maryland have this type grass.
doug

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c158/fullrut2/killplot.jpg

[LoessHillsArcher]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbltree</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a chunk of brome we are hoping to burn this early May, it has some little blue stem and big blue stem coming through but there is much more laying they waiting to sprout. </div></div>

Remember to burn late if your going to use burning alone to encourage the native grasses. If you plan to kill the brome with roundup then you'll need to burn very early and spray the brome at first green up.

Keep us posted on your project! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>

Tthe first or second week in May should be correct timing, right?

I never thought about burning early and then RUp on the new brome growth, probably too big of an area and going to be real hard to get anything with a boom sprayer on those hills, we'll consider it though!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The first or second week in May should be correct timing, right? </div></div>

Yes, perfect timing to burn and set back cool season grasses ad encourage native warm season grasses. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif


For those considering a stand of native warm season grass I just want to remind you that planning is a key to a successful planting.

Look wayyy ahead not just next week! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Planting soybeans the year before is a great way to prepare a ideal seedbed for either broadcasting or no-till drilling of prairiegrass seed. It creates an ideal soil surface for frost seeding your native grass or clover.


http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000837.jpg

Soybeans can be no-tilled into sod and then using roundup for herbicide you can kill sod with several sprayings.

This field was in hay just before they no-tilled the beans but now it's March and it would be perfect for planting NWSG.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000837.jpg

Fluffy seed will make great soil/seed contact if you need to broadcast it if was in beans the previous year.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSGseed-1.jpg

Planning ahead...food for thought... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[LoessHillsArcher]

Well we aren't planting NWSG but we had about 27 acres that was majority brome with some little and big blue stem and indian grass in it. We just did a burn on April 19th hoping it would set back the brome and help the NWSG out. It won't be a stand like you planted but the burn area is real easy and maybe after a few years of burning we hope to have a good stand of NWSGs. Time will tell but here are some pictures.

Before http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/100_0608.jpg
After..I wish I had a time stamp on the pictures because it was about 20 minutes between these two pictures! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/100_0629-1.jpg
Before
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/101_0302-2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/100_0622-1.jpg
Man you can learn alot about how the wind works with swirls and thermals, was a fun afternoon!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/100_0621.jpg

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Man you can learn alot about how the wind works with swirls and thermals, was a fun afternoon! </div></div>

Yes you do! Looks like you did fine though...keep us posted on how the burns work. The only thing I would say is try burning later, like early to mid may in the future to set back cool season grasses and encourage the NWSG.

Great pics...thanks for sharing! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[LoessHillsArcher]

Ya, this was the only weekend that really worked for us and any later we would have a crop in the ground and couldn't get 4wheelers back there with water on them. In hind-sight we could have probably got it done later but for our first burn we've got this one down to where we can do it in a couple hours with the right conditions and little equipment, future burns will be later!

[dbltree]

Some pics of my established NWSG on June 1st...

Some green growth starting at the bases of the clumps

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG6-1.jpg

Interesting to see the difference where I ran a mower thru this stand last year. The clumps seem to be greening up quicker and some wildflowers appeared while none are in the standing NWSG.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSGClumps-1.jpg

Indiangrass growth on June 1

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/IndianGrass06-01.jpg

Big Bluestem 06-01-08

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BigBluestem6-1.jpg

Cave In Rock switchgrass June 1st

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/CIR06-01.jpg

Birdsfoot trefoil is always laying there ready to go if it has a chance.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Birdsfoottrefoil6-1.jpg

Daisys seem to be the only "wildflowers" that ever come back after burning or mowing. It takes some intensive management to maintain a stand of diverse forbs.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DaisysinNWSG.jpg

I prefer to manage for the tallgrasses as a place for winter bedding and upland bird winter cover by burning late to suppress forbs and coolseason competition and keep my tallgrass thick and dominate.

Goldenrod is a real problem in my prairegrass stands...easily killed with 2-4d or set back by late spring burning, but it is a constant battle to keep it from taking over. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Goldenrod6-1.jpg

If you burned this spring your native grasses should be starting to put on some growth! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Prairiegrass information compliments of Osenbaugh Prairiegrass Farms
Cave In Rock Switchgrass (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=275930#Post275930)

Switchgrass Varieties (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=275931#Post275931)

Killing Brome and Fescue (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=275932#Post275932)

Growing Prairies Successfully (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=275934#Post275934)

[Sligh1]

dbltree, QUESTION- of the land I showed you I planted about 6-7 acres to Indian Grass and Big Blue Stem mixed together and that's it (no switch). I did 25 acres straight CIR too in other areas.

I know CIR has a hard time germinating, will it be the same with above mix OR should I see the Indian and Big Blue germinating soon here?

Should the maintanence and care be the same with CIR as the areas I planted to Big Blue and Indian?

Think it was a fair idea to diversify with the other seed choices? I also have 6 acres of CP-25. So, I have 25 acres of CIR at 8-10 lbs acre, 6-7 acres BB Stem/Indian and 6 acres CP-25. I will have option to do additional stuff later as well which I'll seek advice. THANKS!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sligh1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dbltree, QUESTION- of the land I showed you I planted about 6-7 acres to Indian Grass and Big Blue Stem mixed together and that's it (no switch). I did 25 acres straight CIR too in other areas.

I know CIR has a hard time germinating, will it be the same with above mix OR should I see the Indian and Big Blue germinating soon here?

Should the maintanence and care be the same with CIR as the areas I planted to Big Blue and Indian?

Think it was a fair idea to diversify with the other seed choices? I also have 6 acres of CP-25. So, I have 25 acres of CIR at 8-10 lbs acre, 6-7 acres BB Stem/Indian and 6 acres CP-25. I will have option to do additional stuff later as well which I'll seek advice. THANKS! </div></div>

You absolutely did the right thing by diversifing your plantings!

The "fluffy" seeds prairiegrasses like Big Bluestem and Inidangrass germinate eaiser then switchgrass so they should germinate anytime this month.

Management is very much the same, just different options. Atrazine can used to control weeds in new switchgrass and Big Bluestem seedings but not in Indiangrass. Plateau can be used to establish Big Blue, Indangrass and other native grasses but NOT switchgrass.

Clipping to control weeds the first few years is the same (mow 8-12" high)burn late spring to encourage tallgrass, burn early to encourage forbs. Most whitetailers will want to encourage tallgrass with late burnings.

This makes NWSG plantings that include wildflowers a little more difficult to manage or a bit of a waste of money for the forb seed.

Prairies are beautiful and like tree plantings can be an awesome addition to your wildlife habitat projects. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[Sligh1]

dbltree, QUESTION for ya, I haven't been down to the land for a while. Not sure if the area down there flooded? If it did, will that hurt the new seeding, some is CIR, some is Indian and BB Stem. Would it wash away new seeds OR would it kill seeds that had germinated?!?!?!
THANKS A TON!

[fullrut2]

dbltree,
what difference do you see with your crp?

between the mowed and the unmowed?

my mowed seems to come back better.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fullrut2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dbltree,
what difference do you see with your crp?

between the mowed and the unmowed?

my mowed seems to come back better. </div></div>

I almost never mow mine simply because it defeats the purpose of having the tall cover thru the fall and winter. But I suspect that clipping it late in the summer just removes some of the "stems" and allows it to warm and green up faster in the spring.

Burning does the same thing but allows the cover to be there thru the winter.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure if the area down there flooded? If it did, will that hurt the new seeding, some is CIR, some is Indian and BB Stem. Would it wash away new seeds OR would it kill seeds that had germinated?!?!?!
</div></div>

We do have some very serious flooding going on down here but if it will just STOP...then things can dry out and your seeding will be fine.

If the ground stays flooded for an extended period of time then new seedlings could be in trouble. Mature plants can take it for a little longer.

We've been pounded with rain here for days now and the flash flooding is dangerous so just wait until things calm down before even checking on it.

[kleppert]

dbltree, thanks for all your information on this post, I have benefitted from it. I have a maintainance question for you.

Last year I established 1A of Grass (big, little bluestem, switchgrass). I mowed an old field, sprayed roundup, rototilled, waited and sprayed roundup again then broadcast seed. Germination seemed OK last year and now this year I have a knee high field that is mixed with NWG and weeds. I'm concerned that the weeds may out compete the NWG. My question is should I mow this field or just let everything grow up and burn next spring or what would you suggest I do. Also, my brushhog at its highest setting is about 6" tall, is this too short to mow?

Thanks, TS

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a knee high field that is mixed with NWG and weeds. I'm concerned that the weeds may out compete the NWG. My question is should I mow this field or just let everything grow up and burn next spring or what would you suggest I do. Also, my brushhog at its highest setting is about 6" tall, is this too short to mow?
</div></div>

If most of the grasses seem to be above the weeds or at least even with them, then waiting and burning late next spring might be best.

If weeds are growing way above the NWSG then mowing might be needed but 6 " is pretty low. 12" would be better to help keep from smothering and injuring the plant crowns.

I lift my brushhog right off the ground so that the back wheel isn't even touching by lifting the 3 pt. hitch. If you have a pull type then that might not be possible.

If the weeds are already bad and you feel mowing is needed at 6" high, I wouldn't wait much longer or you will smother to many plants. Look closely though...if sunlight is getting to the NWSG plants then mowing might not be needed.

Feel free to post a pic or email some to me if your unsure. It's always hard to judge without seeing exactly what is going on. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[JEG]

I would mow, just try to keep the weeds from heading out. Maybe stop the mowing in july to let the grass grow then you should have some fuel for a burn next spring.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What would you recommend for NWSG seeded last month that is already greening up with grass and a few weeds?
NRCS recommended (and would only pay for) 2 spring RU sprayings. I paid for 4oz per acre of Plateau out of my own pocket. Unfortunately, the plateau ran out leaving 12 acres with RU only. The plateau acres are still mostly brown while the RU only acres are greening back up.
</div></div>

It's hard to beat Plateau or Journey for residual weed control in NWSG but only Plateau can be applied post-emergence.

If you don't have any forbs (wildflowers etc.) mixed in then you can use 2-4D for broadleaf weeds after the grasses have reached the 3-4 leaf stage, but 2-4D will kill your forbs if they are in the mix.

The only options that are really viable now is clipping weeds at 8-12" high as needed. There are so many different types of grasses in a NWSG that finding a herbicide that won't kill one or the other is nearly impossible.

Clip this summer and then you can spray in early spring with Roundup if need be before the NWSG greens up or use Journey (Plateau and roundup)before greenup for both residual and contact control. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[LoessHillsArcher]

If you flip back a couple pages in this thread you'll see some before/after pictures of a burn of brome grass we did this past spring. We thought we might be a few weeks early but were happy to complete our first burn safely. Here is some updated pictures...we are more than pleased with the results and would reccomend burning as a powerful management tool! You wouldn't believe the change in plant diversity..going from majority brome to weeds, legumes, alfalfa, more NWSF, and some stunted brome! This particular area takes about 1 hour to burn with 3 guys able to contain it. Something we plan on doing each spring!

One question, some areas the brome really really was set back. You can see bare dirt and we were thinking frost seeding Swtich or another NWSG in there would help the wildlife out? My question is would it work to frost seed the area in Feb./Mar. and then burn again early May? Would the burn harm the seed?

out with the cedars, in with the big blue stem I believe
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/100_0890.jpg
another area that showed great turn around
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/100_0891.jpg
you can really see the clumps of Natives on this hill side
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/100_0884.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/100_0889.jpg

Lastly, we swear it was alfalfa that was thriving in spots? I know this is over grown pasture that hasn't been in use for about 10 years, is this likely? It looks like amazing nesting/rearing cover for quail, pheasant, and turkey...nice open dirt floor for easy travel and a zillion bugs!

[huntyak]

So the farmer I just signed on with to farm my 6 acres of alfalfa mistakenly took a swath through my first year switch /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif I had called him the night before and asked him to stay away but he must have forgotten. In any case, I had mowed 3 weeks ago to about 12" but now I have two swaths through the 5 acre field that you could play golf on! I knew this year would be more a "germination" year but I hop the seedling weren't affected. He had baled my 6 acre clover patch and is planting alfalfa but should I be concerned or as he said, "its a grass and will be fine".

[Keef]

Where is the best place to buy NWSG? It's pretty expensive if I recall correctly.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> we swear it was alfalfa that was thriving in spots?</div></div>

I'd say it is birdsfoot trefoil...when I killed my brome the birdsfoot exploded! The NWSG soon out comepteted it but the seed is still laying there...waiting.....

Your NWSG renovation looks awesome!!! Thanks for sharing the pics! Normally they don't recommend burning in the seeding year but heck...I would try it in some of those bare areas and see what happens! Maybe mark some areas so you know for sure...if the spots are bare the fire will burn around them anyway.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keef</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where is the best place to buy NWSG? It's pretty expensive if I recall correctly. </div></div>

Check with Osenbaughs over by Lucas Iowa

Osenbaugh’s Prairie Seed Farms (http://www.prairieseedfarms.com/)

Took a few pics of my NWSG today August 18th

This is Indiangrass in the foreground and Big Bluestem towering above switchgrass in the back ground.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Indiangrass-2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Indiangrass2-1.jpg

Indiangrass in the foreground switchgrass on hill

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Indiangrass4-1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Indiangrass5.jpg

This is the base (clump) of Indiangrass

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/IndiangrassClump-1.jpg

Switchgrass

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchnIndian.jpg

Base of switchgrass...not so much of a "clump" as Big Blue and Indiangrass

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrassbase.jpg

[Sligh1]

Specific QUESTION/SCENARIO….

I drilled in Indian Grass and BB Stem into some sparse CIR. Before I did this I sprayed with round-up and 2,4-d.
Now, there is all 3 grasses. A ton of SHORT foxtail (because of the round-up in spring obviously), it’s short because I mowed everything about 5 weeks ago. Sunlight to all the grasses seems to be fine.

My question is, what should I do next spring/summer??? (I can’t hit with Atrazine because of Indian Grass).

A few options could be: Round-up and 2,4-d before NWSG’s start growing. And/or I could mow again (like to avoid that if possible). LASTLY, I have another patch SIMILAR that did great the 2nd year (next spring will be 2nd growing season on this of course) by doing NOTHING. In this last scenario- I would simply be hoping that the grasses this year got their root structures going well and next year would out-compete anything else. NOT SURE THOUGH, what would you do??!???? THANKS!!!!!!!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> (I can’t hit with Atrazine because of Indian Grass). </div></div>

Au contraire my friend... atrazine is only detrimental to Indiangrass in the seeding year. In otherwords once the Indiangrass has germinated and growing then it's no longer a problem.

In the same manner Plateau (Journey) will keep switchgrass from emerging it's seeding year it's not as harmful once established.

So the second year you have more options which can be real helpful. You can use atrazine on the NWSG mix you have planted without a problem.

If you had a NWSG mix with lots of forbs (wildflowers) then Plateau would be a better option and 2-4D would be out of the question. Managing for tallgrasses alone is much easier!

I also would avoid mowing...if you have any broadleaf problems, then kill them with 2-4D later in the summer. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Sligh1]

Great thing to know Dbltree!!! I did not know that. Ok, since all 3 will be safe with Atrazine, would you PLAN on spraying the atrazine if you were me based on the scenario, timing and condition of my planting this last spring?

I know for sure I am going to spray the CIR only areas with round-up and Atrazine, part of reason is because I seeded some CIR this spring and I am sure some won't germinate til spring '09, SO- those areas are going to get BLASTED with 4 lbs/acre of atrazine + round-up. BUT- I know the Indian and BB stem did in fact germinate this spring. They could possibly do very well without spraying since they have DECENT sunlight RIGHT NOW even with the thick but shorter foxtail (about 18-24" tall BUT it does have seeds on it). What do you think? Spray the Indian, BB and CIR mix with Atrazine/Round-up next spring or NO?

Awesome resource here and appreciate everything!!!! (so will the deer and critters!!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif )

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you think? Spray the Indian, BB and CIR mix with Atrazine/Round-up next spring or NO?
</div></div>

Spraying might allow the NWSG to thicken and flourish faster so it would help but not an absolute must either.

No mowing should be needed that way either...

I took this pic standing in a mix of CIR and Big Bluestem, standing out in looking at my truck perhaps 20 yards away...gives you an idea what a big ole buck feels like hiding in that stuff... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/CIRnBB.jpg

Some end of August Indiangrass...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/8-26Indiangrass.jpg

and a shot standing in the NWSG, holding that camera at eye level...even if a deer is running thru this stuff...he's safe from unless someone is lobbing hand grenades!!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/8-26Prairie.jpg

Prairies are well worth the time and effort it takes to establish them no matter if it's a 1/4 acre in the back yard or a whole farm.

Awesome stuff! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Sligh1]

A friend of mine just back from the Lansing IOWA area. Was at a DNR site. The DNR there SAID "when we plant native grasses- we PREPARE the area by planting Round-Up Ready Beans for THREE YEARS!!!!" They claimed they did that to really FRY the area or something and get the area ready to seed. Is this not necessary? Overkill? Something anyone here should consider?

*I just "Fried" Brome grass with round-up with ONE SPRAYING after mowing- very little Prep compared with 3 years of Nuclear attacks on ground. Big difference, hoping I am ok BUT wanting to learn at the same time!!!????!!!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The DNR there SAID "when we plant native grasses- we PREPARE the area by planting Round-Up Ready Beans for THREE YEARS!!!!" They claimed they did that to really FRY the area or something and get the area ready to seed. Is this not necessary? Overkill? Something anyone here should consider?
</div></div>

I have mentioned many times in this thread and the switchgrass thread that planting RR soybeans ahead of native grasses is an excellent way of preparing the site.

Three years however is a little over kill IMO....you can plant them for 30 years and nuke the livin' daylights out of it and still...weeds will be back!

KILL KILL KILL the brome this fall...kill it twice if you have to and kill it again in the spring if need be...and you'll still have weeds...just not brome.

What your doing is fine Skip...just "don't spare the horses" as they say...nuke it hard! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

There is a good article posted in Prairie Source (http://www.prairiesource.com/newsletters/95_sum01.htm) about the merits of burning NWSG.

For anyone who is managing a stand of NWSG or interested in starting one, I would suggest reading the article in full.

Studies such as this one might be a little "blah blah" but if your interested in using NWSG stands to hold big whitetails then managing it correctly is important.

Just a few key points from the article...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">D.A. Dokken in Proceedings of the Fifth Midwest Prairie Conference reported: on deep soil, stem density of big bluestem was significantly reduced in one year without burning, and for indiangrass and sideoats grama in 3 years. Kentucky bluegrass, in contrast increased in stem density with time after burning. </div></div>

Now that point should make you instantly aware of the need for timely burns!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gibson reported that both the percentage of and cover of C4 species (native warm season grasses) and all grasses decrease as the prairie remains unburnt. An interesting study by Gilliam looked at the interception of precipitation by grass canopies. The mean interception for the study period was 38 and 19% for the unburned and burned prairie, respectively, indicating that throughfall volume in burned prairie was approximately 1.3 times that of unburned prairie on a annual basis. Thus, water availability for plant uptake may be initially higher in burned prairie, especially early in the growing season. Briggs in 1992 found that without burning and with adequate moisture levels, the number of trees increased over a five year period by over 60%, while in an area burned annually the number of trees decreased.

</div></div>

So the prairie can soak up more soil moisture and invasive trees are held to a minimum by burning.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Knapp, now studying the effects of detritus accumulation on productivity, reported a strong negative impact of plant litter production on subsequent ecosystem function. These deleterious effects on plant litter include: a reduction in available light energy to the system; an alteration of the microclimate and physiology of emerging shoots such that carbon dioxide uptake is reduced; a conversion of immediately usable inorganic nitrogen in rainwater to less readily available organic nitrogen in microbial biomass; an inhibition of nitrogen fixation by free living microbes and blue-green algae as a result of phosphorus and/or light limitation; and a reduction in soil temperatures, which diminishes root productivity, invertebrate activities, and probably microbial activities as well. Fire and grazing therefore become necessary, integral ecosystem processes that maintain productivity of tallgrass prairie by the removal of standing and fallen litter.
</div></div>

That's a mouth full but it helps us understand how intricately delicate the NWSG ecosystem is and how reliant it is upon burning.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Upland and lowland prairie communities burned in spring at intervals from 1 to 11 years were constantly dominated by big bluestem. With increasing intervals between fires other dominant warm season grasses, little bluestem and indiangrass, had decreased cover, whereas forbs and woody species had increased cover. Aboveground biomass was higher on an annual burned versus unburned lowland prairie, due to stimulated grass production. Sites unburned for 10 or more years were converting to woodlands.
</div></div>

Don't burn and the prairie just...fades away......

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What effect does not burning have on native grasses? In the absence of any management at all, during the first 3 to 4 years it will provide some good wildlife habitat.

From the 4th year on it will be too thick for most wildlife and over time, probably 10 years or less, the native grasses will be overrun with cool season grasses and trees.

Grazing and/or haying can negate or delay some of the effects mentioned, but not all. The physiological processes which depend upon burning cannot be replaced by any management means.
</div></div>

If the you are unable to burn the article notes some things that can be helpful to keep your prairie viable longer although it will be difficult to maintain it long term.

Just another point made to allow for burn lanes when planning and planting your new prarie.

I just love my prairie this time of year!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSGmix9-26.jpg

The Indiangrass is especially beautiful right now...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Indiangrass9-26.jpg

It's like a "wall"...a jungle that deer just "fade away" into it and I love watching them pop out of it into the foodplots...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WallofNWSG.jpg

Our forests and prairies are natural habitat that can be managed to the fullest to enhance it for whitetails and other wildlife. All of this with a very minimum of inputs compared to our food plots.

Burning is a very effective and natural tool that increases browse and cover in both timber and fields...learn to use that tool safely to give your land the edge in holding mature whitetails and making your property beautiful as well. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[hillrunner]

I thought Id share a pic of some cave in rock I drilled this march. I drilled it directly into pastured brome and sprayed the brome with Atrazine and Round up in April.
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/switchgrass_002.JPG

[locust]

I don't have pictures to prove it, but I had 16-17 acres put in with cost share 3 years ago that was a CP25 mix. I hope to get pictures this fall to post. I had Rich/Raven from Iowa Habitats plant for me and this was the year I contracted a burn through PF. I got down this weekend and it looked just incredible. Very dominated by big blue, but a pretty time of year. The burn this year really made the fields take off. my question is I have about 5 acres left to "play with". I'd like to put CIR in that field which is currently alfalfa, but is being burned down by a neighbor who no longer will hay. Based on my success in contracting this work(I don't have the equipment) I was thinking getting either PF or Iowa Habitat to drill it in if the job was big enough for them. Although, I think PF would like to put in a mix vs. straight CIR. A thread on the forum suggests folks have great success with frost seeding and spraying with atrazine. I'd like to save the money, but for those of you that maybe have tried both, what would you recommend I do....frost seed or get it drilled if money wasn't a factor? I haven't had good success in test areas frost seeding CP25 mixes so I'm a bit hesitant of doing CIR on my own.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">frost seed or get it drilled if money wasn't a factor? </div></div>

You can still frost seed even with a drill and if you furnish the seed then PF should plant what ever you ask them too.

The natives mixes are great but remember they are considering that your looking for top quality deer bedding...they are looking at it from the merits for upland birds (as they should)

You will find over time that Indiangrass may dominate the Big Bluestem...prairies change over time....

I just run the drill on frozen bare ground in late winter which just allows you to place the seed more accurately.

All of my NWSG was frost seeded and I have never seen it fail unless proper preperation wasn't done first, namely nuking sod the fall before with roundup.

If it's mowed close and killed first then frost seeding is a piece a cake either broadcast or drilled.

Atrazine the following spring just allows for great weed control and quicker growth of your CIR. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[huntyak]

Iowa Habitat Frost Seeded 5 acres of CIR on what was harvested corn this spring. It is a great first year stand but foxtail became a bit of a problem. I mowed once and that pushed it back and the only other set back was the guy I have hay my field cut two big swaths through it (after I told him to watch the switch). In any case, it is coming up pretty well frost seeded!

[locust]

interesting story huntyak - I had the same thing happen to me which is one of the reasons the alfalfa/hay guy that I let on this ground won't be there next year. Thanks for the input, I think I'll just go with straigh drop/frost seeding (if the stock market keeps going down that will be my only option) and sprying with atrazine in the spring and see how it goes. I think I officially have the sickness.

[Sligh1]

I sprayed some Brome grass twice, the last spraying was a few weeks ago. It was FRIED. now, I notice some small green grass that has come up in the last couple weeks- pretty thick in some areas. 2 part question

-With CIR switch ONLY, I should be OK because I'll spray round-up and ATRAZINE so that cool season grass that has sprouted will be fried next season right?

-My bigger concern is if I plant another area of it with CP-25 OR possibly some Indian/BB stem. I can't use Atrazine in this case. What can I do about this new tiny grass that's in there for next spring? (and to be honest I have stored my sprayer for this year already). Anything I can do early next spring? Should I plant LATER so I can hit it with round-up before seeding when stuff greens up in spring?

[dbltree]

It won't matter when you plant the NWSG it still is slow to germinate which gives you several weeks early in April to nuke it again with RUP.

No matter what you do, without residual the "green stuff" is going to aggravate you but it's not the end of the world either.

I haven't put my sprayer away Skip...should I come over about Nov. 1st and hit it again for you? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

[Sligh1]

Sounds good. I think many of the forbs will come up early SO I'll just spray right before I plant or something if I do cp-25

Sorry for additionals....

-Will Atrazine kill foxtail?

-I noticed UNLIKE bb stem that INDIAN GRASS has tons of seeds at the end of that feather like top. It would seem like it would not take long at all to collect a big bag of that seed. Could I go out now and collect that seed and does that sound reasonable compared to how difficult BB Stem is to collect?

THANKS!!!!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sligh1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds good. I think many of the forbs will come up early SO I'll just spray right before I plant or something if I do cp-25

Sorry for additionals....

-Will Atrazine kill foxtail?

-I noticed UNLIKE bb stem that INDIAN GRASS has tons of seeds at the end of that feather like top. It would seem like it would not take long at all to collect a big bag of that seed. Could I go out now and collect that seed and does that sound reasonable compared to how difficult BB Stem is to collect?

THANKS!!!! </div></div>

Atrazine will control foxtail by preventing seed from germinating (if it is applied at heavy enough rates)

Your very right about collecting NWSG seed and many prairies have been established by groups of volunteers gathering seed heads which are later planted.

Even Big Bluestem can be harvested by snipping off the seed heads. I have a some wild (native) BB that has been spreading via wind blown seed from across the road, into the ditch and into my fields.

Pretty amazing since the ditch never gets burned, mowed or sprayed! I have bothe Indiangrass and Big bluestem coming up around the edge of my yard and I have no idea where it came from, just native seed that without pasturing and cropping has a chance to grow.

Again...no mowing, burning or spraying! So no worries if your weed kill isn't perfect...it will grow! Give it a helping hand and it will just grow faster /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Here's some links to groups that have collected NWSG seed and started new prairies (or expanded them) Everyone can start even a small backyard prairie!

Native Grass Seed Collection (http://www.scnps.org/news_pied.html)

Native Grass Community (http://www.esd.ornl.gov/facilities/nerp/ORR_native_grass_management_plan.pdf)

Developing Techniques to Produce Native Warm Grasses (http://www.ipps.org/Papers/EasternNA/tindall.PDF)

Reseeding NWSG (http://www.fws.gov/rainwater/Management/reseeding.htm)

Create Your Own Naturescape (http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/1996/09/40.html)

HARVESTING NATIVE GRASSES AND FORBS (http://www.iowadnr.com/wildlife/files/FMAOct.html)

Tips on Reconstructing a Prairie (http://www.iowadnr.com/wildlife/pdfs/06182007_newsletter.pdf)

Iowa Native Prairie Plants (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/SUL18.pdf)

[Sligh1]

One of the NWSG seed dealers recommended DUAL for my plantings that I drilled in last spring (08) (and they were mowed). I have some ALL CIR plantings. I also have some mixes of BB stem, Indian and CIR all together. Would you ever suggest this? Would you use OVER atrazine in any case OR in conjunction with atrazine?
*I read some on Dual in the Heribicide thread.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sligh1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One of the NWSG seed dealers recommended DUAL for my plantings that I drilled in last spring (08) (and they were mowed). I have some ALL CIR plantings. I also have some mixes of BB stem, Indian and CIR all together. Would you ever suggest this? Would you use OVER atrazine in any case OR in conjunction with atrazine?
*I read some on Dual in the Heribicide thread. </div></div>


Without seed treatment I think the use of Dual Magnum would cause significant injury to NWSG seedlings.

From this link: Great Lakes Plant Solutions (http://www.plant-materials.nrcs.usda.gov/pubs/mipmcnl5653.pdf)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seed treatments for protection of warm season grasses against herbicide injury.

Warm season grasses, such as switchgrass and big bluestem, are affected by grass weed competition during
seeding and early establishment. There are few herbicides available for newly seeded warm season grasses that
will selectively control annual grass weeds.

A chemical seed coating product is available to protect grain sorghum
from injury to several pre-emergence grass herbicides. The Michigan NRCS State Conservationist entered
into a testing agreement with Syngenta Crop Protection Company to evaluate the effectiveness of a
chemical seed coating to protect warm season grasses from pre-emergence grass herbicide injury.
Syngenta Crop Protection Company, the manufacturer of Concep III® seed treatment, applied the seed coating
to switchgrass and big bluestem seed.

The Rose Lake PMC is conducting greenhouse and field experiments to determine the effectiveness of that seed treatment for preventing injury from Dual II Magnum ® and Outlook®
herbicides. </div></div>

Sorghum seed is treated (or can be) so that it is "safened" to use Dual Magum II with it....could be that treatment is/can be/will be available for NWSG seed but I have not heard of it being used.

Dual II Magnum Label (http://www.syngentacropprotection.com/pdf/labels/SCP818AL1M0204n.pdf)

Syngenta Product Info (http://www.syngentacropprotection.com/labels/default.aspx)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For weed control in corn, cotton, peanuts, pod crops, potatoes, safflowers, grain or forage sorghum,and soybeans </div></div>

If your looking for a safe effective residual herbicide for NWSG then I would look at Journey® Herbicide (http://www.vmanswers.com/products.aspx?pid=7) which was how this NWSG was originally started.

Plateau® Herbicide (http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/lolo/projects/big-game-weeds/34-app-o-labels/09-plateau.pdf) is the best (Journey is Plateau only it also contains Roundup)but it is difficult to find unless through Pheasants Forever.

Dual is a pre-emergence herbicide that one sprays on after planting but I'm not sure how it would perform on year old established grasses? Perhaps at that point it would not cause injury but I have not found a label that says so.

I am a Dual Magnum fan and combined with Atrazine they make a very effective corn herbicde combo. Nearly 300 bucks for 2 1/2 gallons so if you deicde to try some I would be willing to split some with you.

Some things one just has to try to find out but I don't want to say...spray the whole place because I just don't know.

I would also add this...Plateau at high rates is very injurious to switchgrass seedlings but I have used it to release established switchgrass with great results (just food for thought... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif )

General info on NWSG (http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publications/pbfiles/PB1752_appendices.pdf)


These are a couple pics of totally wild native Big Bluestem that has started on my place where none existed before...without herbicides I might add... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WildBigBluestem-1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NativeBigBluestem.jpg

[Sligh1]

Some of the CIR seed will be germinating NEXT SPRING. The Indian and BB stem will have their 2nd growing season next spring. SO- I think I'll stick with Round-up and Atrazine from the above thoughts and prior reading I have done on this thread. I'm sure I'll post later on timing and double-check what I am going to spray.

Great thoughts and feedback, AMAZING! Thanks much!!!

[Sligh1]

Here's what Osenbaugh's seed said about me spraying 20 acres of solid CIR and 9 acres of CIR/BB Stem/Indian Grass that will be on it's next growing season. Sound ok and do you agree?

"Skip Our first choice would be Bicep II Magnum at 2.1qts But this is a Dual and Atrazine mix which is restricted but it is the best choice per Acre. Second choice Would be Dual Magnum 2.6 pts per acre"

What timing would you suggest on spraying and would you up quantities at all or change anything considering what's planted???

Thanks!!!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bicep II Magnum at 2.1qts </div></div>

I think I would go with that Skip, not sure about changing the rate because I have not used Dual on native grass.

I have used it on corn and soybeans and it is very effective!

The difference is that you applying it to "stubble" so to speak, lots and lots of trash whereas applying a premergence herbicide directly to tilled soil is very effective.

This the only reason I apply higher rates to an existing stand of native grass, much of the herbicide will not even make soil contact.

It's difficult to say how much is absorbed into the "straw" and then is no longer effective by stopping tiny weed seeds from germinating.

Atrazine is a problem when applied year after year on crop fields where it then runs into our waterways, but applied one time to a field of switchgrass where roots and existing dead sod grass hold water...it's not a problem.

Check the labels for situations where Bicep or Dual is applied in a no-till or burndown situation to get a better idea, but I suspect you could safely up the rates... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Sligh1]

THANKS!!!
Sorry for the additional question I forgot earlier...
I am frost seeding CIR alone into killed (mowed then killed) brome grass.

Would I also use the Bicep II Magnum in this instance OR would you go for the Atrazine (and maybe round-up too) only here?

Timing of the spraying???? THANKS!!!

[Osenbaugh]

skip use 1QT per acre of Bicep By April 1St on your new seeding of CIR

[Sligh1]

Thanks a ton!!!! DONE!

[whitetailnut]

i have a 2 acre plot killed dead and dead over again in aug and sep and will frost seed straight cir in late feb, early march. My question is that dbltree mentioned thatch will absorb some of the atrazine. I have a somewhat heavy layer of that in spots so with my first shot of atrazine should I go more than 4 qts per acre???

[Fishbonker]

Is your plot in Michigan or Iowa? As I understand the Atrazine laws in Iowa 4 quarts to the acre would be against the rules, but it may be OK in Michigan. I can't answer the "will it help" aspect of your question, I'm just trying to keep you outta trouble and Atrazine outta my well water.

The 'Bonker

[dbltree]

I would suggest adding Dual Magnum or using Bicep Magnum as a way to lower atrazine to legal levels and take advantage of Dual's ability to control foxtail.

I think 2 quarts per acre of Atrazine is the legal federal maximum for switchgrass.

Bonker has valid concerns about atrazine as we all do and should so I shouldn't be advocating higher then legal levels.

I know that one time applications applied on sod will never end up in our waterways and establishing stands of prariegrass ensures that herbicides applied year after year on neighboring fields will be absorbed by my switchgrass.

If the switch seeding fails then a means of slowing the runoff fails with it, hence my reasoning... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Follow the legal federal suggested rates for any herbicides to be safe... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[dbltree]

Seems that "hard to get" Plateau herbicde now has a generic alternative!

Panoramic 2SL (http://www.alligarellc.com/_Products/PDFs/Panoramic_2SL_LABEL.pdf) is imazapic just like Plateau and safe for Plateau tolerant native grasses and forbs.

I'm sure it can be ordered thru any ag supply outlet that sells herbicides but I did locate this source as well.

Panoramic 2SL herbicide source (http://www.genericherbicides.com/panoramic2sl.aspx)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PANORAMIC 2SL REGISTERED FOR WEED
CONTROL IN PASTURES

A new herbicide for pasture weed control was registered for
use in Kentucky. Panoramic 2SL contains the active ingredient
imazapic.

Panoramic 2SL can be used in pastures, rangeland,non-crop areas, and establishment of native prairie sites.

The active ingredient, imazapic, is also sold as <u>Plateau.</u>

Wording on the Panoramic 2SL and Plateau label are similar
but read and follow directions on the specific product.

Panoramic 2SL and Plateau are formulated as ammonium salt and contain 2.0 lbs of the free imazapic acid per gallon. </div></div>

All through this thread I have talked about how awesome Plateau is for establishing Native Grasses Mixes but then it was taken off the market except through certain places like through Pheasants Forever.

Imazapic at higher rates will severely injure new switchgrass seedlings, so I like to frost seed switch into a native mix the following winter. Once established I have found imazapic will release switchgrass and it seems impervious to this herbicide.

It's expensive but so is native grass seed and herbicide will allow it to thrive the seeding year! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[12 point]

i was going to frost seed native grass & forbs into some corn that i brushhoged down. will i get good soil to seed contact or am i better off working the ground,and then plant.

[hillrunner]

can you rake and bale the corn 1st? If its a smaller area maybe you could rake it into piles and burn it ?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 12 point</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i was going to frost seed native grass & forbs into some corn that i brushhoged down. will i get good soil to seed contact or am i better off working the ground,and then plant. </div></div>

It will work that way because corn stubble is pretty coarse and winter snow/spring rains will push seed off the stalks and stubble to the soil below.

If you have any that is quite heavy you can burn it as hillrunner noted or have someone with a big roundbaler bale it up for you but...I think I would just seed it as is..... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Osenbaugh]

Give me a few weeks I have applied for my dealer licence Thru the State of iowa for herbicides and could carry Panoramic Ill keep you all posted Thanks

[Sligh1]

Anyone know what a really good price on Bicep II Magnum would be per gallon or 2&1/2 gallon?????
Atrazine???

Where are you all seeing the best prices on stuff like that IF you did find some great prices?

[dbltree]

I posted these pics several years ago and just bringing them back up to show that warm season grasses can be burned or sprayed early in the spring because they are still dormant:



Big Bluestem on April 19th:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/04-17BigBluestem.jpg

Little Bluestem:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/04-17LittleBluestem.jpg

Switchgrass:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/04-17Switchgrass.jpg

This is an area at the edge of my prairie along a lane...so you can see that cool seasons are the only thing green at this point:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Aprilsodcomparison.jpg

Everyone is tempted to burn in March or early April but that defeats the purpose as it encouurages cool seasons to explode long beofore the native grass has woke up from it's winter nap.

Wait until very late April through late May to burn native grass stands because doing so will set back cool season invasive grasses and then allow natives to dominate.

If you are spraying any type of grass herbicide including roundup, check the bases of the clumps carefully for growth before doing so. I prefer no later then late April and usually shoot for mid April to be safe.

Established stands are likely to "wake" up before newly planted or first year seedings but established stands usually can be better managed by timely burning every 3-5 years with a late spring burn...:way:

[tomt]

Planning on planting around 10 acres of the cp-25 mix next spring. The darn NCRS won't let me plant just switchgrass as I would prefer. They were very nice about it, they just have to go by the rules as it is going into CREP.
These fields were chiseled plowed about 10 years ago, enrolled in crp, and no maintenance done what so ever. I recently bought this land which now attaches to my other land. This ground is unbelievably rough !!!!!!!
Any help with my plan would be appreciated,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I'm cutting the brush now with chainsaw and brushog. Plan on spraying with roundup as the grasses green up. Then will dig and disc till level. As wet as it is here, I don't think I'll have enough time to plant soybeans. This is very low and damp ground by the way!
Once level or done, I would plan on spraying with roundup probably 2 more times or so with the last one in fall as any cool season grasses emerge again.
I would probably drill in mid-November or so before the snows come. Would do in March, but time window is so iffy from snowmelt to too wet to get into this area next spring. Would try to spray in spring with roundup again at first green-up (mid- April or so) killing any grasses that survived, well before the planted grasses started.
I'm guessing there is no spring herbicide (i.e. atrazine ) to use as too many grasses and flowers in mix they want me to use ?????????
Would include pics, but can't figure out how to attach.
Thanks for any advice,
Tom

[dbltree]

I doubt if you'll have to spray roundup next spring if you kill it all summer and fall. Panoramic, Plateau or Journey can all be used on native warm season grass mixes but they are very expensive and hard on switchgrass.

Check the herbicide thread for labels and if you decide you want some most ag supply/farm elevators can order it for you.

I prefer to leave the switchgrass out and seed it the following winter if Panoramic or Plateau is used so that it's not harmed by the herbicide.

email me pics if you like dbltree2000@yahoo.com and I'll post them for you.:)

[dbltree]

Here's a link to a smaller size of Panoramic NWSG herbicide (like Plateau), still very expensive but for smaller areas it at least offers an affordable solution. ;)

Panoramic 1 qt (http://www.keystonepestsolutions.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17&products_id=192)

PANORAMIC™ 2SL Label (http://www.alligarellc.com/_Products/PDFs/Panoramic_2SL_LABEL.pdf)

I used 10-12 ounces of Plateau per acre and Panoramic is along the same lines as far as doage.

One quart will only do roughly 3 acres depending on how much one decides to apply which means cost would run nearly $50 an acre.

For most killing the sod the fall before and clipping the weeds 8-12" high the first few years will be more cost effective...:)

[letemgrow]

Good points Paul,

Mid to late April is a great time to burn to stimulate NWSG and set back cool seasons. For the fortunate people that have great forbes in with NWSG I would not recommend burning at that time every year or some of those forbes may be phased out. I would also add some august-september burns to the mix to stimulate the beneficial forbes.

[dkelley]

I have plans to replace 7 acres of brome and weeds with CP-25 along the north edge of my wetlands. The area is typically high and dry but has wanted to stay wet all this Spring. I burned in early April and it was the 2nd week of May before I could get my tractor in to spray with roundup. The rains have not cooperated and the area has been wetter than we would have liked to drill the seed.

With the forecast for more rain this weekend, I am leaning towards planting in the Fall. The plan now is to let whatever wants to grow this summer grow, mow mid-August, roundup early September and drill the CP-25 in November.

Does this sound like the correct thing to do? The other option is to plant beans and drill into the beans so I get something out of the area, but it will most ilkely push my food plot per acre over the CRP limit.

Thoughts?

Thanks

[Sligh1]

I am sure Dbltree will have a response and a far better one BUT if it were ME: if you were going to plant in the fall- I'd wait to put all the stuff in during FEBRUARY. I'd make sure if I had switchgrass in the mix, I got it in when things were thawing and freezing still. I'd kill the heck out of it several times after I mowed it, I'd hit it late summer and again as late in the fall as you can while it's still growing so as few weeds come up as possible (2 times really isn't required BUT I would rather overkill things than have a bunch of re-growth which is all to common. Some extra Round-up spraying isn't that big of expense on 7 acres anyways and will insure excellent kill) .

Kill like a mad-man this fall (RR beans will make that area AWESOME for planting)- get stuff in the ground in February (drill or frost seed) IMO. *If you could do beans there- can't beat that!!!! I'd do that for sure if you can!!

Now, since you are adding FORBS to the mix (cp-25) it will change things, you can't add atrazine to the mix of plans. You'll be mowing next summer, just means it'll take longer. Dbltree will have a far better response too.... :)

[dbltree]

if you were going to plant in the fall- I'd wait to put all the stuff in during FEBRUARY

I have drilled in late November but results were mediocre compared to frost seeding mid winter (late Jan thru early March)

Use the same drill to plant right into frozen killed sod and you'll have better results.

Just don't tell the the NRCS guys because they have rules to follow that don't always line up with the best method. ;)

[dbltree]

I shared in the switchgrass thread that switch is very resistant to Oust XP herbicide and that this herbicide may prove to be an economical and easily obtained option comapred to atrazine.

I do not know at this point how Oust affects Indiangrass but it certainly doesn't phase Big Bluestem...;)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/BBremainsafterOust.jpg

These pics are taken where my tree planting when right thru wild native big bluestem and the Big Blue was untouched!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/BigBlustemintreatedarea.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/BigBluestemafteroust.jpg

I had used one ounce of Oust XP in my 3 gallon backpack sprayer but how much that translates into per acre is very difficult to say because hand spraying is not consitant...hard to control "ground speed" and "RPM's" when your stumbling around in a blackberry patch...:D

This pic was taken June 9th of established Indiangrass just to give an idea of plant growth early on.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Indiangrass6-26-09.jpg

Growth is always faster after a burn when the blackened soils warm quickly and speeds growth of NWSG's

This is an Indiangrass seed head forming on July 7 while another field was no where close to this height. The varieties are different however and after all these years I have no clue what they are.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Indiangrass7-3-09.jpg

Big Blustem seed heads in the same field

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/BigBluestem7-3-09.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/BigBlueseedhead7-3-09.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/BB7-3-09.jpg

I have noticed that more frequent burning is better then less and waiting three years the difference in spring growth is profound.

After burning, NWSG springs to life and dominates but after only three years the soil is again covered with thatch and straw keeping the soil cooler which encourages cool season grasses and weeds to invade. :rolleyes:

[tomt]

Dbltree,

Could you ever explain how to attach pictures on here. Seem to be having trouble figuring it out. Want to show you all some. I have this 3 year old CRP planting crazy with Canada Rye and flowers, but no signs of the switch, bb, indian, or little blue. Will take some pics tonight !!!!!

Thanks

[dbltree]

Dbltree,

Could you ever explain how to attach pictures on here. Seem to be having trouble figuring it out. Want to show you all some. I have this 3 year old CRP planting crazy with Canada Rye and flowers, but no signs of the switch, bb, indian, or little blue. Will take some pics tonight !!!!!

Thanks

I download them to my album on Photobucket (http://photobucket.com/)

then just copy and paste the [img] into your post here

Your more then welcome to email them to me and I will post them for you if your prefer. dbltree2000@yahoo.com

Usually Canada Rye last only a year or so and then fades away as the others take over so something doesn't sound right if the stand is three years old?? :confused:

[letemgrow]

I plan on spraying to kill some fescue in a big bluestem and indian grass patch that I have going into it's 4th year. I wanna get this done in the fall after the NWSG's go dormant so when would be a good time?? I was thinking in October sometime or maybe if there is a November warm up.

[tomt]

Dbltree,

I've read this thread and your switchgrass thread at least three times and have learned tons. I know you say you've never seen a WSG planting fail, but I think I may just have a failure. Will send you some pictures.
Like I mentioned, lot's of Canada Wild Rye and flowers, but none of the switch, big blue, little blue, or indiangrass that was supposed to be in the seed mix. This is the 3rd growing season on about 25 acres.
I did frost seed some switch and big blue into these fields this past March. Who knows, maybe some of that will work it's way in. I do plan on burning next spring. I'm limited on what I can do because of a CRP contract. My NRCS guy is pretty easy going and said we could try a few spots next year after the burn and drill in some, followed up with mowing all year. One lesson learned. Don't get your seed from the local mill !!!! Go with a reputable WSG seed source.
Will be putting in about 12 additional acres in CREP next spring. Aready have started the prep and spraying. Will do myself by your method.

Thanks,

[dbltree]

There is a first time for everything I and perhaps this stand is now the first NWSG stand that actually did not take? I wouldn't call it a total failure because the Canada Wild Rye and wildflower still provide great cover but not the same as the clumpy grasses.

Here are pictures of Tom's stand air seeded in Oct 06

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/CanadaRye4.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/CanadaRye3.jpg

No generally Canada Rye is considered a sort of nurse crop for the other natives and usually fades away after they begin to grow. Obviously the wild rye is still here and the natives are not. :confused:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/CanadaRye2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/CanadaRye1.jpg

Air seeding is a great method of seeding but I will say that I have found fall seedings to be less effective then late winter seedings. I think the seed lays there a little to long and is subject to problems thru a long winter but I'm just guessing.

I have seen several late November seedings do reasonably well but October seems a tad to early especially if there was some abmormally warm fall weather.

Mid March is my favorite time to sow fluffies and it's easy to do with a Truax drill on frozen soil or with the Truax fluffy hand seeder.

Fluffies however are not dormant seed like switchgrass so they could be drilled into that stand after burning in late spring.

Now something I would be inclined to do is pick up some switchgrass seed and frost seed some of it and see how that does.

That is an awesome stand of Canada Wild Rye though Tom! :way:

[tomt]

Thanks Dbltree,

The CREP 12 acres I'm doing next year the NRCS guy want's me to plant around "corn time" so I can spray the fields one more time next spring. They were in grass and brush the last 10 years. Will send you pictures. I plan on "supplementing" that with a frost seeding this next March with CIR switch. And yes, I will probably frost seed a little CIR switch in that Canada Wild Rye field as well.

Tom

[dbltree]

Keep us posted on how this all works out Tom both with the old planting and your upcoming new planting.

NWSG plantings are awesome and normally not that difficult to establish but in any planting there can be a "hitch"and some times "stuff" happens so I'll be curious to see what happens with this in the next few years.

Thanks again for sharing the pics...:)

[dbltree]

Tom sent a few before and after pics of preparing some pretty "wild" land for NWSG...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Field3before.jpg

after

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/field3after.jpg

before

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/field1before.jpg

after using RR soybeans

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/field1after.jpg

Nice work Tom! Preparing is half the battle and should be at the forefront of plans to establish NWSG! :way:

[letemgrow]

Great pics Paul!!

[tomt]

Update on my "Too much Canada Rye patch"

Well, we just got home from a weeks summer vacation and of course one of the first things I had to do was tour and inspect the fields. I was shocked to actually find some Big Bluestem!!!! Not a lot, but a few plants here and there. I'm guessing I found about 30 or so on about that many acres. So the million dollar question, Maybe this planting wasn't a failure?

It will be interesting to see what shows up by the end of August ????

Will keep my fingers crossed!!!!!!!

[dbltree]

Maybe this planting wasn't a failure?


Keep us posted Tom...;)

[dbltree]

I'm going to re-post Phil's posts on Eastern Gamagrass and Prairie Cord Grass here in the NWSG thread so that more pople can be aware of these natives and perhaps draw attention to seed collection of true wild natives.

This is a great NWSG that gets pushed aside and most people do not know anything about the grass. It is a relative of corn with tremendous forage potential for cattle. Some stands can be chest to head high in high quality soils. I am in the process of collecting wild seeds from very vigorous plants in Northern MO to keep the genetic diversity alive. The only commercial sources for Eastern Gama are collections for Oklahoma and Kansas or farther south than that. I have pheasant hunted in gama grass and it makes great habitat for lots of wildlife. It grows in clumps as with other NWGS's and the seeds start to mature in July and are almost as big as corn and just as hard. The grass can be planted with a corn row planter and requires winter to break dormancy or some type of synthetic stratification. Here are some pics of this oft over looked gem. One plant can live up to 70 years.

Look how much better it grows on poor soils than the cool season grasses around it.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Farm%20Trip%2007-05-09/EasternGamaGrass2.jpg

This plant is 2 years old on my farm and already starting to produce seeds.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Farm%20Trip%2007-05-09/EasternGamaGrass1.jpg

Very vigorous gama that was chest high.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Farm%20Trip%2007-05-09/EasternGamaGrass.jpg

Shepherd Farms is a well known seed supplier and source of information about EG which is very much like corn and switchgrass in that it loves nitrogen and the seed needs to be stratified by cold wet chill much as switchgrass does.

Shepherd Farms - Eastern Gamagrass seed source (http://www.shepherdfarms.com/)

Phil also posted this on Prairie Cord Grass:

Here is another great NWSG.
This will stand up all winter long and provides great thermal cover for wildlife. It will grow in wet or dry areas. I have jumped many pheasants and deer out of this cover and wish I had more on my place.
http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Prairie%20Cord%20Grass/PrairieCordGrass1.jpg
Seedhead
http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Prairie%20Cord%20Grass/PrairieCordGrass2.jpg

Phil and I would like to encourage everyone to take a moment to gather wild native seed prairie seeds whenever you can and help spread these beautiful and very beneficial natives plants back to their original habitat.

If you can kill the coolseason sod this fall, even in small areas like a wild portion of a back yard or lot or an odd area on your hunting property or even a spot on hundreds of acres of CRP, it's easy to hand plant natives via frost seeding this winter or early spring.

These pics are from a friends place where I killed the sod and frost seeded a NWSG mix on part of it and CIR on the rest in an inaccessable field that required spraying and seeding by hand.

The second year the landowner was able to get some atrazine on part of it (safe on most NWSG the second year) but other then that it was just killed and seeded. It hasn't been mowed or anything and all of this on very poor pasture land, sorely in need of lime and fertilizer but...it still grew!

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/NWSG/Switch3nBigBlue.jpg

Mostly Big Blue and switchgrass right now

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/NWSG/Nativemix.jpg

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/NWSG/Nativemix3.jpg

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/NWSG/Nativemix2.jpg

So regardless if you sow eastern gamagrass or big bluestem that you picked seed from in a ditch somehwere or buy a bag of seed, with a few bucks worth of roundup and a little sweat equity you can easily start some natives in your area!

[Sligh1]

Has anyone ever taken the time to pick seed from plants on a LARGE SCALE? Let's say you wanted 100 lbs of CIR switchgrass OR 50 lbs of big blue stem or WHATEVER, you think that would just be far too big of a task and hassle?? (let's just CIR switch is $10 a lbs so you'd save $1000 for example IF you could pick it yourself. Indian looks like it might be the easiest while switch seems the most difficult). Just curious if anyone has done this?

[letemgrow]

Switch would be tough to hand pick, but it is worth picking true natives to your particular area...the reason is...would we want to forest the midwest from 3-4 oak trees or use local trees that are made for that area. To me, it's the same principal using the cultivars of NWSG's. If we all planted CIR. then to me that is not much diversity to keep the species healty.

The easiest way to pick the seeds on most NWSG's such as switch, indian or big blue is to run some sort of screen fairly fast over the seed heads and have them fall into a container. Think about how many seeds end up in a radiator or on a hay conditioner when you drive over top the seeds.

I agree Skip that Indian grass is super fast and easy to pick along with big blue, little bluestem and side oats grama. I picked 5 pounds of blazing star last fall and spread that on my wildflower area.

[dbltree]

These are pics of wild big bluestem on the farm where I have never introduced any "fluffies"...;)

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/NWSG/WildBigBluestem.jpg

Lots of people think you have to work up the ground and spend a lot of time and money to establish native grasses but sometimes just fencing the cattle out and letting nature take it's course will do the trick! :way:

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/NWSG/WildBB.jpg

If you can burn fields late in the spring you will also encourage wild natives, especially if burns are done on a regular basis to set back invasive cool seasons.

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/NWSG/BigBluestem.jpg

That last pic shows where I used Oust XP on my oak seedlings but the Big Blustem is unphased and is in fact thriving.

Using glyphosate in early fall after natives have matured but while cool seasons are still green and burning in late spring are good combinations to help restore wild native grass habitat and...there is often cost share available to do restorative burns! :way:

[letemgrow]

Great stuff Paul!!

I recommend that before anyone buys NWSG's, see what you already have in the seed bank by doing a spring/fall burn or gly application and see what comes back. You may be suprised about what is already there.

[tomt]

Will try to post some pictures. I actually am starting to see some Big Blue and Indiangrass in my 3rd year planting. I even found two different shoots of switch.

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/CRP8-13-09006.jpg?t=1250268364

[tomt]

Another picture. Will work on attaching skills.
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/CRP8-13-09007-1.jpg?t=1250268648

[tomt]

I guess my parcel is good proof that it may take 3-4 years for a prairie to get established. Can't wait to burn next spring.

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/CRP8-13-09003.jpg?t=1250268880

Granted I took these pictures in a area that had some "natives", But at least I know they were in the hopper when planted.

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/CRP8-13-09007.jpg?t=1250269114

[Daver]

Great stuff Paul!!

I recommend that before anyone buys NWSG's, see what you already have in the seed bank by doing a spring/fall burn or gly application and see what comes back. You may be suprised about what is already there.

Although I do not have any pictures to post right now, I have been very surprised to see the great diversity of plants that are already in the soil in seed form now on my place.

I have a 5 acre field that was brome CRP for approximately 15-16 years that I first "disturbed" about 4 years ago. I first mowed the brome about 4 years ago, mainly to kill off volunteer cedars and oaks and "others" to comply with the new CRP regulations. I subsequently killed the brome with Roundup and then had winter wheat planted for 2 consecutive years.

For a variety of reasons, I didn't get any wheat planted last summer, so it sat in mostly fallow condition all of last year. I then burned it all off earlier this year and what grew back on its' own looks very much like the pictures in this thread. Although I do not know all of my native plants, I have a great variety of plants present now, a good amount of insects hopping around, EXCELLENT bedding cover and so forth. I did mow a 2 acre section short about 3 weeks ago now and hit it with gly last week to prepare for a rye planting around Labor Day.

I found MANY deer beds in this "new" habitat when I was mowing and when I came back to spray two weeks after mowing the turkeys had obviously been having a field day looking for grasshoppers, etc, in the meantime, judging by all of the feathers in the field.

In short, I think Letemgrow has a good thought...kill the brome and let nature take its' course and whether you end up with a "pure" NWSG stand or not, I am pretty sure you will seriously upgrade your habitat by just getting the brome out of the way and letting things go on their own. I did not seed any NWSG, etc, in this area.

[dbltree]

...kill the brome and let nature take its' course and whether you end up with a "pure" NWSG stand

You will find Dave that if you continue to burn, especially late in the spring that the natives will continue to thicken and return.

You might consider tilling or discing a burn strip around and area to safely contain the fire and keep burning and possibly spraying a little roundup on early in the spring and you'll be surprised what you end up with!

Your also welcome to come over and strip some native seed to toss in there as well...can't get any less expensiove then that!

Another option for your place is to consider a strip around the exterior that you disk every year, burn late and then plant the strip to egyptian wheat for a screen....kill teo birds with one stone!:way:

[Daver]

You will find Dave that if you continue to burn, especially late in the spring that the natives will continue to thicken and return.

You might consider tilling or discing a burn strip around and area to safely contain the fire and keep burning and possibly spraying a little roundup on early in the spring and you'll be surprised what you end up with!

Your also welcome to come over and strip some native seed to toss in there as well...can't get any less expensiove then that!

Another option for your place is to consider a strip around the exterior that you disk every year, burn late and then plant the strip to egyptian wheat for a screen....kill teo birds with one stone!:way:

I don't remember the date when I did burn this field this year it was about as late as I could get a burn going, I really had to baby it and manually spread it too. Things were greening up some and suppressing the fire spreading.

I might take you up on the offer for free seed! I also would like to invite you to stop by my place and take a look at my switchgrass stand and tell me if I should just restart or if I should look forward to next year.

[dbltree]

take a look at my switchgrass stand

Give me a shout next time your coming down and I'll run over Dave...;)

[dbltree]

So what happens if you give native grasses a shot of nitrogen?

Nannyslayer spread urea over some NWSG in some areas to compare and then sent me the following pictures. He used his trail camers so the pics are not the best and it would have been better if he had someone stand in the grass but still you can get the idea. He also mentioned the wind was blowing hard so the grasses are not standing straight up.

In the fist pic the NWSG on the left had little or no N applied while the natives on the right did

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/NWSG/switch1.jpg

This spot had a little N applied and was about eye level

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/NWSG/switch2.jpg

This area had no nitrogen applied at all and was about chest high

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/NWSG/switch3.jpg

This spot had a heavy application of nitrogen and the grasses were easily 10 feet tall! :shock:

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/NWSG/switch4.jpg

Now applying nitrogen is purely optional and this stand is a native mix so the Big Bluestem in the mix is "reaching for the sky" but any native including switchgrass will respond in the same way.

Don't apply N to new stands unless you have also applied a good residual herbicide because the N will also encourage weeds but established stands will respond with awesome growth.

In areas where you may need some additional screening, applying n can certainly increase growth! Remember to apply N in June after grasses have emerged and are growing well and just hours ahead of a minimum of a 1/2" rain or the N can be lost to denitrification... ;)

Thanks a bunch for sending the pics Brian!

[letemgrow]

In short, I think Letemgrow has a good thought...kill the brome and let nature take its' course and whether you end up with a "pure" NWSG stand or not, I am pretty sure you will seriously upgrade your habitat by just getting the brome out of the way and letting things go on their own. I did not seed any NWSG, etc, in this area.


The best stand will not ever be pure NWSG, some forbes provide great browse, cover, bugging habitat and add diversity to the planting for lots of species and the deer benefit in the process.

A 10 acre stand of pure Switch for instance will be great bedding and cover, but not provide any food. A 10 acre stand of 50% switch and 50% forbes will have PLENTY of cover while the forbes add diversity and browse for deer. Pheasants, quail and turkey poults will have a lot more bugs and seeds come fall too!!

[dbltree]

Picture of Big Bluestem seed head on 8-21

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/BigBluestem8-21.jpg

Indiangrass seed head 8-21

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Indiangrass-1.jpg

Seed is not ready to harvest yet but it gives one an idea what to look for and I'll keep an eye them and ost pics when the seed is mature. :)

[LoessHillsArcher]

Seed is not ready to harvest yet but it gives one an idea what to look for and I'll keep an eye them and ost pics when the seed is mature. :)

Thanks Paul, I'm ready with the paper bags and all to start collecting!

[dbltree]

Some September 1st 09 pics of my own native grasses...

Big Bluestem and Indiangrass have been spreading into my pure stands of switchgrass, kind of interesting since common perception is that switch is dominate and will "crowd" out the other grasses...

In these pics you can see the Big Bluestem towering above the switchgrass

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/BBinswitch.jpg

So you might ask..."why bother with switchgrass then" and the reason is because the tall big blue cannot hold up under heavy winter snow and ice and by late winter will usually be flat as a pancake.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/BigBlueinswitchgrass.jpg

Big Bluestem is a beautiful native grass and does co-exist well with switchgrass and I love to see it's red hues covering a field.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/SDC12659.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/SDC12660.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/SDC12661.jpg

The seed heads are nearly ready to harvest

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/BigBluestemseedhead9-2-09.jpg

Often people say "switch is too thick and the other natives are not" but when you actually walk in a good stand, one is just as thick as the other.

Here is a Big Bluestem clump

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/BigBluestemclump.jpg

The Indiangrass with it's feathery seedheads is also a beautiful native warm season grass!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/SDC12662.jpg

Mine is generally somewhere between the BB and switchgrass in height and is very dominate, spreading into all of my switch fields.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Indiangrassseedhead9-1.jpg

Indiangrass is the first to fall when winter comes and mine is very aggressive, spreading like the Big Bluestem via wind blown seed.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Indiangrass9-1-09.jpg

Indiangrass clump

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Indiangrassclump.jpg

The switchgrass seed heads are finer and this grass does get very thick, however switchgrass, especially Cave In Rock, is capable of providing awesome all winter cover that is unbeatable.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Switchgrassseedhead9-1-09.jpg

At ground level the clumps are much the same as the other tall grasses and the "clumpy" nature of native grasses makes them far more attractive to wildlife then thick sod forming cool seasons. The clumps allow small wildlife and eve deer to move through the grasses while still having overhead cover.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Switchclump.jpg

All of these grasses were dormant seeded in the winter time and the fact that the tall natives have spread on their own is further evidence of how easily these grasses can be established via frost seeding.

The land they are growing on has not been tilled in 30+ years yet they have thrived by merely killing the cool seasons with glyphosate and frequent burning.

Great time of year to start thinking about collecting wild natives to frost seed later this winter.... ;)

[dbltree]

For those with an interest in collecting seed from native prairie remmenants I would urge you to explore the following site and subsequent links for some great information.

The Iowa Living Roadway Trust Fund has help pay for research and re-establishment of natives grasses and trees along our roadsides. Research is ongoing to determine how best to establish native grasses as closely as possible to a true native habitat.

Research shows that while drilling can be very effective in establishing native grasses, broadcasting seeds better re-creates a truly diverse seeding.

This is the link to the Living Roadway but then be sure to explore the Iowa Praire Network and other links for extremely helpful information in re-establishing true native prairie grass and wildflower habitat.

Iowa Living Roadway (http://www.iowalivingroadway.com/links.asp)

Watch native plants for signs that some seed is dropping before stripping seedheads and then allow seed to air dry in paper sacks stored out of reach of rodents and birds...:)

[ajadams]

Do you think it would be at all helpful to burn first year nwsg's? A few of the areas I seeded this spring were off to a great start till the foxtail started in, then I kind of lost track of my grasses. I hope they are still there but there is alot of trash from all the mowed foxtail. I was thinking of burning it to get rid of some of the trash in the spring and set back any early weeds starting. Good plan or not? Thanks

[dbltree]

Do you think it would be at all helpful to burn first year nwsg's? A few of the areas I seeded this spring were off to a great start till the foxtail started in, then I kind of lost track of my grasses. I hope they are still there but there is alot of trash from all the mowed foxtail. I was thinking of burning it to get rid of some of the trash in the spring and set back any early weeds starting. Good plan or not? Thanks

They say not to burn first year natives but I don't know for a fact that it will cause harm? I never have burned until at least the second year but most advise not to burn for the first three years.

I wish I had a concrete answer to why not because I'm really not sure of what the detrimental effects would be and why?

I have had the same thing with lot's of foxtail trash but eventually the natives took off anyway. If you do decide to try burning, let us know if it works out alright? ;)

[dbltree]

When you decide to put in a native warm season grass planting regardless if it is a single species or mixed, it's important to plan ahead for burning in the future.

Fire lanes or burn stops should be in your plan which may include a legume like clover or perhaps a tilled strip that you plant to sorghum or egyptian wheat.

I always till around my fields because I have had fire get away from me by following the dead thatch in the fire lanes...dirt is a sure fire stopper as long as winds are calm.

Why burn?

Without burning the straw builds up and can almost smother the plants themselves as you can see here with this Indiangrass.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Indiangrassstraw.jpg

New plants have grown around the perimeter of these dead clumps but nothing in the center where the original plants were.

The straw builds up across the fields and the native grasses literally suffucate themselves.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Nativegrassstraw.jpg

If burning is out of the question then mowing or shredding can help but burning is without question the ideal and your native grass stands will flourish after burns...:way:

[letemgrow]

Burning also releases nutrients back to the soil....it would be my first choice for NWSG stands. Hopefully I can get one of my big blue stands lit up this spring to set back the fescue and promote more big blue.

[tomt]

Here's some

pictures of land I have been preping for next spring seeding.

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/Colrado2009240.jpg?t=1253887826

[tomt]

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/Colrado2009239.jpg?t=1253889714

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/Colrado2009237.jpg?t=1253889737

And a picture of what it looked like,

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/Field3before.jpg?t=1253889787

As you can see, I missed some spots with my spraying. Re- did those two days ago. Trying to follow Paul's advise to the "T".
The fields have actually been sprayed about four times this year already. Trying to do my best at killing all those cool season grasses.

Couple of questions for you Dbltree,
Since this ground is going in CREP and they dictate the CP-25 mix basically, I want to add CIR in a few areas to "bolster" my mix and get a little more of what I want. Would 2lbs. per acre in these areas be too little or too much???? I would frost seed that this Feb/March.
The NRCS wants me to seed around corn planting time next spring so I can spray at first green-up. Couldn't I frost seed and still spray at first green-up before anything germinates????
I'm planting about 12 acres total. A couple of other areas/fields I'll be planting I did manage to get soybeans planted in. These fields were also sprayed last week with Gly just to be safe.
Thanks, and any advise or tips are appreciated !!!!
Tom

[letemgrow]

TOMT,

If you are going to put that area into NWSG, you can also broadcast the seed this winter and let mother nature do the work for you...it may be an option you want to check out. :)

[tomt]

That's what I would like to do. But the NRCS guy seems to want me to plant more like May or June. When you say winter,
do you mean a Feb/March frost seeding?
Snow is usually here on the ground till the end of March
or beginning of April.

[letemgrow]

You can do it in March or before...here is what my stand looked like that was scatter seeded in November on a sod killed piece...it is time to go back in this fall after the big blue goes dormant and roundup the fescue. I only hit it once that fall, but should have done it the spring before and the fall to get a good kill from the get go.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/big_bluestem.jpg

[dbltree]

Couldn't I frost seed and still spray at first green-up before anything germinates????


Absoutely! The NRCS guy is just telling you what he has been told but that doesn't mean that it's "correct" or better...just the methods they are given as standard practice.

You have prepared well...just frost seed, add some CIR if you want and spray any early green up no later then mid april and don't tell them otherwise.

Just do it, take the bills in, in May and everyone will be happy!;)

[tomt]

Sounds Good !

That's what I will do.

Just seems like everthing I've seen or read,
the frost seeded does better than the spring plantings.

[dbltree]

Just seems like everthing I've seen or read,
the frost seeded does better than the spring plantings.

It does...but there is nothing in the "books" (rules) that NRCS has to allow for frost seeding so they go with what they have even if it's wrong.

The farm where I live has never had any natives brought in and there are now natives spreading everywhere...how and why??

They spread by wind blown seed just as nature intended and the seed lies on the ground thru the winter months until freezing/thawing action along with late winter snows/rains help it make seed contact.

Why fight Mother Nature? Sow it the natural way and it will do great! :way:

[luv2hunt1469]

TomT or Double,
How did you manage to get rid of all the little trees on that piece you prepared for the native grasses. I have some similar areas of older CRP that are brome and filled with smaller trees like that. I hate to brush hog them, as that leaves little "tire gougers" everywhere from where the trees were cut. I understand how to kill the grass, killing the trees and removing any sharp little stumps is another story. Thanks

[letemgrow]

It does...but there is nothing in the "books" (rules) that NRCS has to allow for frost seeding so they go with what they have even if it's wrong.


That is the reason I do not like the government contracts...I swear the people that make some of the rules on brush cutting, seedings, crp, seedlings etc seem to make things more difficult at times to get stuff done.

Some deals are great they have tho. :way:

[Daver]

TomT or Double,
How did you manage to get rid of all the little trees on that piece you prepared for the native grasses. I have some similar areas of older CRP that are brome and filled with smaller trees like that. I hate to brush hog them, as that leaves little "tire gougers" everywhere from where the trees were cut. I understand how to kill the grass, killing the trees and removing any sharp little stumps is another story. Thanks

I had 90 acres of CRP that was almost as much scrub cedars and oaks as it was brome. I did have it mowed/brush hogged about 3 1/2 years ago and from there it has been a process to eliminate all of the "shrapnel" :).

The work is still not 100% complete, but I have removed an awful lot of leftover stumps and so forth by hand over time. I have cut them off at ground level with a chainsaw in some cases, I have chopped them out of the ground with an axe, I have had a farmer disc up an area and then gone back over it with a drag to clear out the stubborn ones, I have had controlled burns, etc.

Most of the non-cedar stumps either rotted away by now or resprouted into oak clumps, etc. The cedar stumps have barely begun to rot over three years later and I still need to be careful in certain spots. I guess I don't have an easy solution to the problem of removing the stumps, especially the cedar ones.

[dbltree]

controlled burns

That's really the best bet to control invasives, to burn every couple years which will kill most red cedars and doing so will keep them from getting large enough leave problem stumps.

Once they have already reached that point it can require hooking onto them with a chain and pulling them out depending on the size of them or hiring a dozer with a root hook.

I use burning as my main tool in my NWSG and then there is no concerns about running over stumps because there is no need for a tractor in the field in the first place....;)

[tomt]

Luv to hunt,

I wish I could tell you of a great solution, sorry.

I brush hogged and chain sawed. Left a lot of "pungy" sticks, but the brushog does sort of tear them up into not so sharp of projections and I never did get a flat tire yet. The bigger tree stumpage that I hit with a chain saw I just cut as low as I could. Did dull a lot of chains though in the process. I also ran over the ground with my 15' digger leveling the ground and this helped tear a lot of the little shoots out of the ground. Next I disced to level the ground. I did manage to bend my drag into a pretzel as I hooked one of those darn stumps still left standing. I had this attached behind the disc. Dumb lesson learned. The disc will go over all that crap but the front beam on my wheel-less drag got hooked. Guess I got another winter fix up project.

Any of the stumps that did re-grow shoots, I sprayed with Crossbow at about 7 ounces to the gallon and that really killed them dead. It all is a lot of work, but luckily I live on this land and I just do a little every now and then. A good stress reliever when you want to get out of the house !!!!!!!

Good luick with your labor of love..........

Tom

[IQDM]

Dbltree, what is your feeling on cattails for deer cover? I'm not sure if you have many cattail marshes down by you, but here we have quite a few of them and they seem to be a prefered bedding cover for deer. Kind of like switch grass for wet areas... there is a low area in my marsh that I would like to change into cattails and I figured I would use your switchgrass formula to establish the cattails... mow in summer, spray in fall, frost seed in late winter, spray atrizine in early spring... I was wondering if you knew much about cattails and if they were resistant to atrizine?

[dbltree]

what is your feeling on cattails for deer cover? I'm not sure if you have many cattail marshes down by you,

Cattails are awesome but we don't have many cattail sloughs down here. Everything is hilly and water just runs off!

I don't know if cattails are resistant to atrazine or not, most wtelands I have seen created, the cattails just seem to appear naturally or you can buy plant shoots.

Great cover but I am no expert on establishing them....;)

[letemgrow]

cattails will grow in any water that is less than 4 feet deep. Its not hard to get them started, keep the area wet and poke the seed heads in the dirt there and you will have them.

[letemgrow]

Instead of cattails, why not try prairie cord grass?? It will stand all winter long and can grow in wet or dry conditions.

[letemgrow]

Here is a pic of prairie cord grass, I have seen deer bed in this stuff a lot over the years. Another common name for it is also ripgut.

http://ohioprairienursery.com/shoppingcart/product_images/uploaded_images/Prairie%20Cordgrass.jpg

[letemgrow]

More info and pics on prairie cord grass:

Prairie Cordgrass is of poor foraging value when mature, but can be eaten by domestic and wild animals during its early growth stage in the early spring when the plant is succulent and tender. However, the species can produce forage at a rate of 3,000 to 4,000 pounds per acre. It is sometimes cut for hay, although the ground it grows in is seldom plowed because of its wetness. Prairie Cordgrass also produces good cover for wildlife. It often remains standing in the winter giving the wildlife extra cover and birds a place to nest. Native Americans and early pioneers used the long leaves and stout stems of Prairie Cordgrass for roof thatching to cover dwellings and corncribs.


http://www.und.nodak.edu/org/soaringeagleprairie/2005/identifyingplants/prairieplantpages/grasses/prairiecordgrass/IMAGES/cordgrass.jpg

[IQDM]

thanks alot... I will do some field research then! I'll take some before and after photos and keep you updated. Planning on taking a bunch of cattail heads and pulling all the seeds of and throwing all that fluff into a 5gal. bucket.. then I'll buy one of those native grass broadcast spreaders like you have... if that doesnt work I'll just spread handfulls of the seed all over... (its a smaller area and the seed is free)
Is cattail a native grass? or what is it exactly?

[letemgrow]

cattail is a native as far as I know

[IQDM]

letemgrow- do you know where I can get prarie cord grass? is that a NWSG like switchgrass but just suited for wetter areas? the area I want to plant is curently like some type of canary grass or something... it is only the first of november and its all laying down already! I want something that is going to be good cover that will stand though most of the winter, and can tolerate a wet area. Its not standing water year round but it is next to a river and in the spring its usually under water until may... then in the summer its dry enough that I can walk through it with regular shoes and not get wet.

[letemgrow]

letemgrow- do you know where I can get prarie cord grass? is that a NWSG like switchgrass but just suited for wetter areas? the area I want to plant is curently like some type of canary grass or something... it is only the first of november and its all laying down already! I want something that is going to be good cover that will stand though most of the winter, and can tolerate a wet area. Its not standing water year round but it is next to a river and in the spring its usually under water until may... then in the summer its dry enough that I can walk through it with regular shoes and not get wet.


Yes it is a NWSG, I would pick it over switch for cover myself. It and switch will be the 2 best to stay standing all winter long over the other NWSG's.

I pick it all along the roadsides in my area this time of year. It is legal to do so in MO for personal use only. I think you would be more pleased with it as opposed to cattails, but it may be different for your area.

Just google search prairie cord grass for sale and you will find it....better have an arm and a leg ready tho.

Also you can buy from Lincoln Oakes Nursery in ND...they sell it by the plug and that strain is probably better suited for your area anyways.

[IQDM]

Thanks alot! I'll see what I can find!

[tomt]

Dbltree,

Questions for you,

Preping ground for frost seeding a WSG,s mix.
Planted in soybeans this year, sprayed 4 times with gly. Ground is still a little rough as this was a cool season CRP field the previous 10 years, which I worked up and planted the beans in what was still a lot of sod clumps if you know what I mean. The question I have is, could I lightly disc now to level even better or am I better just leaving it undisturbed???

Another question, depending on our snow this winter, whats the ealiest I can frost seed. These fields are low and stay very wet in the spring. I was just thinking if we don't get a lot of snow can I do in Jan. or Feb. or am I better off waiting till the snow is pretty well gone, which last season was around the very end of March.

Thanks, Tom

[dbltree]

You could fit it down a little if the soil surface is rough but you may need to hit any early weed growth with roundup in early April.

You can seed in January...not a problem at all, in fact late January is when I have often seeded mine...;)

[tomt]

Dbltree,

I guess I will just let the ground be. It's not that rough.

How do you feel about seeding in mid-December? Is that too early?

It has pretty much been freezing here every night. I would think in 3-4 more weeks the ground will be frozen for good! Its just that right now we are actually dry and I could get in there in a few weeks if our weather continues the way it has been. My plan would be to use NRCS drill and just drop the seed on the ground. This drill they actually have set up where you pull one shaft, and it spits out the seed without actually going down into the ground or you can use it as a normal no-till.

Just would like to hear your thoughts on this.

[dbltree]

How do you feel about seeding in mid-December? Is that too early?

Actually you could dormant seed anytime from late November thru mid March and December should work fine for you.

I have found slightly lower germination rates with late fall seedings versus mid winter possibly just because of the fact seed is laying there for 2-3 extra months and a certain percentage is bound to end up being destroyed.

Beyond that, it wil do just fine and I have some that I sowed in late November myselfand a neighbor drilled his in a few years back in late November with a Truax No-till and it looks great now!

Keep us posted ...;)

[letemgrow]

I am in the process of scatter seeding some remanent stands of big blue, prairie cord grass, eastern gama grass and various wildflowers into fescue sod that I sprayed during the November warm up. The fescue is all turning yellow and the seed has been scattered already...very heavily so I will get some pics and keep a tally on the work for others to use.

I start with 30x30 foot sections, spray them and flag them, then go collect remanent stands from around the area and seed each 30x30 section from a different stand/area so I will have lots and lots of diversity within each species of native grass and who know, maybe start my own northern MO cultivars. :D

[dbltree]

I start with 30x30 foot sections, spray them and flag them, then go collect remanent stands from around the area and seed each 30x30 section from a different stand/area so I will have lots and lots of diversity within each species of native grass and who know, maybe start my own northern MO cultivars

Your a man after my own heart Phil! :way:

[tomt]

Thanks Guys,

I Just don't want my over-anxiousness to cause me to do something dumb like planting too early and thus not get a good germination. I have a lot of time and sweat in the prep of this land and I just want to continue to do what's best.

I think I will order my seed, and be ready to plant (my additional 10 acres) depending on what the weather does.

It will be interesting to see how it turns out. My existing 3-year old prairie, about 25 acres, which was put in by the local mill isn't really all that impressive. When that was put in I didn't know "squat" about prairies or grasses, good seed suppliers, or much of anything. I just want to Thank You all for the knowledge I have gained from reading on these forums and the QDMA forums. Wish I would I known about them sooner!!!! I am now "Obsessed with Prairies" .

Thanks again,

Tom T

[letemgrow]

Your a man after my own heart Phil! :way:


I only have 4 sections set up so far, but will start on at least that many more this spring. I will spray them this spring, summer and fall so the area will be free of weeds and rodents will not have a home that may eat a lot of the seeds.

One 30 foot section was seeded into remanent prairie cord grass along the creek along with western sunflower plants I grew from seed since spring, lead plant and blazing star.

I am hoping that the pcg will help stabilize the stream bank and be rhizomatous and spread out all along there to provide great winter cover right next to my food plots. :way:

2 more were put into big blue, pcg, rough blazing star, prairie blazing star, lead plant, rattlesnake master and purple prairie clover that is growing wild in Mercer County. I always have my eyes peeled when driving down the gravel roads and blacktops looking for new stuff to seed that is a remanent native. :D

The last one will be put into remanent eastern gama grass that was collected all across northern MO. I also sprayed 5 strips that are 100 yards long to plant the rest of the gama grass this fall/spring, side by side to select the most vigorous to plant on the cattle pastures for better cattle gains and wildlife habitat. Native legumes will be added at a later date and I am looking mostly at purple prairie clover and Illinois Bundleflower to fill the gaps. There are several native perennial sunflowers that I am planting also on selected sites to see how well they grow and how much forage they produce. Cattle love maximilliam sunflower and they can grow 6-8 feet tall so that would also be a great addition for wildlife and cattle.

[dbltree]

letemgrow has inspired me to plant some eastern gamagrass, something I have long wanted to do but never got around too.

One thing that I always thought was pretty cool about EGG is that deer will actually eat this warm season grass, something you probably won't see among the other native grasses.

EGG seed is like switchgrass in that it is very dormant and either needs to be dormant seeded or stratified by 6-8 weeks of wet chill. The seed is not unlike corn although a little smaller and can be planted using either a corn planter or drill.

Unlike switch however it must be planted an inch deep so cannot be simply broadcast.

Planting in wide rows would make sense for wildlife purposes but eventually it will spread via rhzomes plant seeds 3-4 per foot in 30-36" rows if using a planter.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Eastern%20Gamagrass/e_gama_4.jpg

EGG grows well on low wet areas including flood plains and has endured repeated long periods of flooding in test plantings where it was flooded purposely for long periods of time.

On the other hand it also endures severe droughts when other grasses wilt and go dormant so it's a pretty versitile warm season grass.

It grows in 1-4 foot clumps which is pretty large compared to other natives and can get 6-9' tall. It does love nitrogen and adding N will boost growth and production just like corn or any grass.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Eastern%20Gamagrass/e_gama_1.jpg

EGG is like corn and most corn herbicides such as atrazine, simazine and Dual MagnumII will work in the establishment year and it can even be established with a crop of corn.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Eastern%20Gamagrass/e_gama_2.jpg

Eastern Gamagrass root...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Eastern%20Gamagrass/EasternGamagrassRoot.jpg

Flower

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Eastern%20Gamagrass/EasternGamagrassFlower.jpg

Leaf

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Eastern%20Gamagrass/EasternGamagrassFeatures.jpg

Here are some great links if your interested in learning more about this unique warm season grass that can provide some awesome wildlife cover and be grazed or hayed to boot!

Shepherd Farms (http://www.shepherdfarms.com/)

Eastern Gamagrass (http://extension.missouri.edu/publications/DisplayPub.aspx?P=G4671)

Gamagrass Seed Company (http://www.gamagrass.com/)

EGG Range Map (http://www.sharpseed.com/pdf/easterngamagrass.pdf)

Eastern Gamagrass Introductory Information (http://www.sprrs.usda.gov/eggintro.htm)

[letemgrow]

Another neat note about gama grass:

It has air passages in it's root systems that allow it to break clay hardpan from what I have read and that may be why it can handle being under water and wet situations better than others. There are also claims that the gama makes passages below the hard pan for other crops to follow later. Here is a cross section of a gama root.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Gama%20Grass/EasternGamaGrass.jpg


Regrowth after 12 days from cutting.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Gama%20Grass/GamaGrass3.gif

Remnant Mercer County Gama plant I found and am collecting seeds off of.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Gama%20Grass/untitled1.jpg

[tomt]

Happy to say I got my 10 acres of ground planted this last week.
The ground was prepped all summer and seeded just before the snows here are starting up. It actually snowed 3" last night and another 10" is supposed to fall on Tuesday night. It will be interesting to see how a 12/3/09 dormant seeding fares. There are 3 fields I planted under a CREP contract, all around equal size.

The seeding was done using a Truax no till drill, but I simply used it in the up position, just "drop seeding". It did work nice as I feel I got a pretty even distribution of seed. I also overseeded by hand the center of each field in CIR switchgrass. Now, I'm just that more anxious for next summer to see how it turns out.

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/NRCSplanter.jpg?t=1260193568

Picked up the NRCS planter,,,,,,,,,,

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/seeddivided.jpg?t=1260193661

Mixed up my seed ahead of time and divided up so many buckets, per field, by size.

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/mixingwithperlite.jpg?t=1260193752

Added perlite to the seed as a carrier and "body".

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/1planted.jpg?t=1260193859

One of the fields I planted. Ground was nice and frozen with a few flurries that day.

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/2planted.jpg?t=1260193966

Another field I planted,,,,,,,,,,,,,

So, it will be interesting to see how it all turns out. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed !!!!!!!!!!

Tom

[dbltree]

12/3/09 dormant seeding

Thanks for sharing the great pictures and we will for sure be looking forward to hearing how your seeding turns out! :way:

[letemgrow]

Looks great TOMT!!!

[dbltree]

I snapped a couple pics of one of my mixed NWSG stands the other day, still standing despite some brutal winter weather this year. Heavy snow and ice along with high winds and do a number on native grasses but so far mine have held up.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSGalongfoodplot.jpg

This stand happens to have "evolved" into more Indiangrass then Big Bluestem after 15 years and that's something to be aware of in mixed stands. Just because you plant the "perfect mix in hopes of having a diverse stand doesn't mean it will stay that way.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG12-22-09.jpg

Over time dominate tallgrasses can eventually take over a stand one tallgrass may eventually take over the entire stand. In this case the Indiangrass has even overpowered the normally dominate Cave In Rock switchgrass and continues to spread via windblown seed.

If anyone has pictures of their nativegrass stands this winter, please share and note the variety if you happen to know it. That gives others some better information on what might work best for them in their area.
If you don't know how to post pics, feel free to email them to me and I'll post them for you. :)

dbltree2000@yahoo.com

[letemgrow]

Indian and Switch are the most aggressive of the NWSG mixes from what I have seen, they do not stay "clumpy" for very long. :D

[tomt]

I took a walk yesterday with the camera in hand. Per Dbltree's request, some pictures to show how the grasses are standing up to
the snow.
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/1-8-106.jpg?t=1263041317

This shot, the grasses aren't too bad. That's also a small milo/sunflower plot in there. This is mostly Canada Wild Rye. As I've stated in earlier
posts, my grasses are just getting established with indian, big blue and switch hopefully coming in better this next year after I do a
springtime burn.

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/1-8-105.jpg?t=1263041705

The picture above, you can see everything is pretty well covered or nocked down.

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/1-8-104.jpg?t=1263041840

This area is standing pretty well. There is actually a little canary grass
and some weed, but heck, it's standing and offering some cover.

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/1-8-103.jpg?t=1263042005

Another pic with with so so grasses standing. Happy to see some deer tracks.

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/1-8-101.jpg?t=1263042225

A pic of a second food plot of milo and sunflowers. Again some deer track, showing signs that the deer are hanging around. From the deer tracks or sign, I'm pretty those critters are just bedding in my grasses and getting up at night to feed in my plots. I also have a little patch of standing corn and soybeans they are hitting pretty hard.
My neighbor across the road has a gorgeous stand of big bluestem, but darn near all his grass is already laying flat. That canada wild rye actually
stands up to the snow pretty well. Will be interesting to see if it starts to thin and vanish as it goes into it's 4th growing season this next year.
All for now,,,,,,,,
Tom T (anxious for spring) !!!!!!!

[letemgrow]

Looks great Tom!!

[tomt]

Letemgrow,
Didn't you or do you have prairie cordgrass planted?
I was maybe thinking of doing a little in a year or so. I have some canary
grass waterways and some flat wetter areas of canary I was thinking of playing with. Maybe add some switch to it???? Just thinking of future
projects to play with.
Wasn't sure how prairie cordgrass stood up to snows, etc.
Thanks,
Tom

[dbltree]

Wasn't sure how prairie cordgrass stood up to snows, etc

I can't answer for letemgrow but the wild PCG growing in ditches around my place is still standing despite blizzards we have had. I can't say what would happen in large open fields though? ;)

[letemgrow]

I have it planted, but just started planting it on my farm this past year. I see it along the roadsides a lot and that is where I collect my seed from since it is 80-120 bucks a pound if you were to buy it and I like getting the local eco-type that is suited to my area. I will snap some pics of the PCG that is growing wild in the area. It stands as good as switch and adds diversity to boot.

When I was young and dumb, we used to do deer drives and PCG patches were a great place to jump pressured deer to sling some bullets at them. I jumped as many deer out of PCG as plum thickets so I would highly recommend that grass and anywhere RCG will grow, so will PCG. It will grow on dry sites, but does best on the wettest areas.

[tomt]

Too bad it is so expensive.
I just thought it would be neat to plant
some to add a little diversity. I still will probably try a little.
You guys are fortunate to have it occuring naturally.

Tom

[letemgrow]

This map says you may be able to collect some yourself from the area if it is legal to do so in WI anyways. :way:

http://plants.usda.gov/maps/large/SP/SPPE.png

[Sligh1]

I have a TRICKY situation with some switchgrass...

I have AREAS amongst 40 acres that are SO sparse it's unreal- all established and planted the same way & at same time. Other areas as thick as can be. This is AFTER I reseeded them and sprayed with Atrazine- this was INTERSEEDING on established switch. The tricky part is some of the areas are on low lying crop land and other sparse areas on some slightly hilly stuff. SO- I don't think flooding is the problem. I am not sure if it could be soil quality? I noticed this recently- one thing it also COULD have been was thicker foxtail in these areas over the summer I just didn't notice (now it's under snow SO it just looks bare).

The reason I put under Native Grasses and not switchgrass- I am thinking of trying to add some Big Blue or possibly Indian to the bare areas. YET- one bare area was planted with some Indian and Big Blue and still very sparse.

QUESTIONS:

-Think it's a soil quality or areas that are too wet and NOTHING I could do will get them going? Can't figure out why these random spots are bare or sparse?!?!!?

-Should I let it go this year (last year was the frost seeding with Atrazine, etc (no atrazine on new Indian grass of course)) and just see what happens, maybe it will come in better???

-What would you do with these sparse areas? Let it go another year, plant to beans to start over, frost seed CIR/BB/Indian, more atrazine, plant to trees, etc, etc???? Maybe one type of NWSG would be a choice to try in my wierd circumstance?

-Lastly, I know that Alfalfa has auto-immune traits to kill new alfalfa and Switchgrass obviously does NOT but i have heard of this occuring in switchgrass, anyone else ever heard of such a thing (Osenbaugh's had mentioned this and toyed with idea of starting over)? I do also have black spots all over CIR- diseased?

Thanks a ton!!!!

[letemgrow]

It sounds like to me some wildflowers are due on those thin areas, blazing star will grow on some of the poorest soils I have seen, also some purple and white prairie clover, slender bush clover and round headed bush clovers would be good choices. I have seen deer browse the clovers for sure...not sure about the blazing stars.

[dbltree]

The black spots are normal and on all of my switch so no worries there Skip. Since it's first year I suspect that some of it will come up this year and may have been held back by foxtail which was difficult to control with all the heavy rains we had.

No reason you couldn't try some other tallgrass or wildflowers though, you might even consider some eastern gamagrass in that low ground. Perfect place for EG and you can still use atrazine on it.

You could try almost anything or try different things in different spots too. If we get a melt so we can look at it better I'll stop over and we'll go for a walk...;)

[Nontypcl1]

This next winter I'm planning on venturing in my first NWSG planting. As some of you may have seen in another thread I have a 22 acre field that will most likely be planted in beans next year to work with. I plan leaving 5 acres for additional food plots but with the remaining I would like to plant half to a quality short/tall grass mix and the half to solid CIR switch. My concern is the switch eventually becoming established in the mix and dominating. Any thoughts on how this will work out? My goal is to provide some quality upland bird habitat as well as some good winter cover for deer.

[dbltree]

This next winter I'm planning on venturing in my first NWSG planting. As some of you may have seen in another thread I have a 22 acre field that will most likely be planted in beans next year to work with. I plan leaving 5 acres for additional food plots but with the remaining I would like to plant half to a quality short/tall grass mix and the half to solid CIR switch. My concern is the switch eventually becoming established in the mix and dominating. Any thoughts on how this will work out? My goal is to provide some quality upland bird habitat as well as some good winter cover for deer.

If your concerned about switchgrass spreading to the "mixed" area it won't.

Indiangrass and Big Bluestem will both spread via windblown seed because they are "fluffy" and easily blown around.

My stands are 15 years old now and Indiangrass is rapidly taking over the pure CIR stands and Big Bluestem is also popping up everywhere.

Long term the short grasses will not survive planted with the tall grasses and IMO they are better off planted seperately out left out of a NWSG mix.
Little Bluestem is a favorite of mine and would work wel with many wildflowers but the tall grasses smother it and it can't compete long term. ;)

[dbltree]

A good link was posted on QDM on some NWSG trials up north much of it for forage purposes but some great pictures and information that makes it well worth the read.

NRCS NWSG Trials (http://www.plant-materials.nrcs.usda.gov/ndpmc/pubs/ndpmcbk10GNP-WS.pdf)

[IQDM]

Dbltree... This is an area that we clear cut and then transplanted 8 year old white spruce into... my plan is to next plant some little bluestem inbetween the trees to make it more of a bedding area... I would have liked to plant CIR but some of the trees are pretty small yet and I dont want the tall CIR to choke them out... I know that you say not to mix tree plantings and NWSG, but I cant have just bare ground inbetween the trees or the deer wont bed there... Plus can you imagine these spruce trees with NWSG inbetween them?? MONEY!!!
I Thought that as for burning the NWSG I would mow the grass right before I burn it so that the flames wouldnt be as high and hopefully wont kill my trees... what are your thoughts on that?
I will only leave the little bluestem for a few years (until the trees are bigger and I can plant CIR)
also what is the seeding rate for little bluestem?
http://iowawhitetail.com/gallery/files/10274-img00256_thumb.jpg (http://iowawhitetail.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=789&c=9)
http://iowawhitetail.com/gallery/files/10274-img00255_thumb.jpg (http://iowawhitetail.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=788&c=9)
http://iowawhitetail.com/gallery/files/10274-img00254_thumb.jpg (http://iowawhitetail.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=787&c=9)
http://iowawhitetail.com/gallery/files/10274-img00253_thumb.jpg (http://iowawhitetail.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=786&c=9)

[Daver]

I Thought that as for burning the NWSG I would mow the grass right before I burn it so that the flames wouldnt be as high and hopefully wont kill my trees... what are your thoughts on that?


Ummmm...I could take a picture of either my place OR my neighbors place, both with scorched/fried conifers leftover from separate burns last spring. I inadvertantly killed off various volunteer cedars on my place, so no big whoop, but my neighbor had planted dozens of nice conifers, spruces, etc, and he fried all of those accidentally. I personally think you are really asking for your good conifers to get killed by some future fire episode if you mix them that way.

[dbltree]

I agree with Dave, I think your asking for trouble! A better bet is to interplant fast growing shrubs inbetween the conifers. The shrubs will provide far better and more attractive bedding then any NWSG and you won't have to worry about burns destroying all your hard work.

If you feel that Little Bluestem is the way you want to go then plant it at 7-9#'s of PLS per acre...

[IQDM]

what sort of fast growing shrubs would you suggest to make this area more of a bedding area?

[dbltree]

what sort of fast growing shrubs would you suggest to make this area more of a bedding area?

Here's a link to some ideas and I have lots more pics, ideas and nurseries to choose from in the Tree Planting thread.

Iowa Seedling Catalog (http://www.iowadnr.gov/forestry/files/09catalog.pdf)

Depends on your soil type but most of the dogwoods, nannyberry, ninebark, hazlenuts, wild plum and high bush cranberries all work well...:)

[Sligh1]

EASTERN GAMAGRASS?!?!? What's you folks' experience with it? Now, I know it's a large seed that should be planted 1-1&1/2 inches down!?!? Think I could ever get away with frost seeding it, obviously that makes me nervous being that big- thoughts??? It would be interseeded in some other thin NWSG areas.

How has you guys' stands of Eastern Gamagrass turned out? Awesome cover?

[dbltree]

EASTERN GAMAGRASS?!?!? What's you folks' experience with it? Now, I know it's a large seed that should be planted 1-1&1/2 inches down!?!? Think I could ever get away with frost seeding it, obviously that makes me nervous being that big- thoughts??? It would be interseeded in some other thin NWSG areas.

How has you guys' stands of Eastern Gamagrass turned out? Awesome cover?

Hopefully letemgrow will post back because he actually has some. I will be planting some but it does have to "planted" unlike switchgrass so one can't just throw it out there.

A corn planter works great but then you have to stratify it first because it is VERY dormant seed! I posted some pics and info earlier in this thread but Shepherd Farms has stratified seed so one can plant it with a planter in the spring.

I'm going to hand plant mine this winter when we have a winter warm spell and let Nature do the rest.

EG is awesome stuff and I have always wanted to plant some! You can use atrazine, simazine and Panoramic herbicides to get it established.

Here's the link to Shepherd Farms :

Shepherd Farms (http://www.shepherdfarms.com/)

If your serious about EG and want to deal with someone who knows this stuff inside and out..Call Shepherd Farms! When I inquired they were very helpful!

One thing a little different about EG is they say deer love to eat the stuff too...so might not want it right next to the road...;)


EG Plant Guide (http://plants.usda.gov/plantguide/pdf/pg_trda3.pdf)

About Shepherd Farms (http://www.sare.org/publications/naf2/shepherd.htm)

Panoramic Herbicide Label (http://www.alligarellc.com/_Products/PDFs/Panoramic_2SL_LABEL.pdf)

EG article in MO Conservationist (http://mdc.mo.gov/documents/conmag/2007/20070401.pdf)

EG establishment guide (http://extension.missouri.edu/explorepdf/agguides/crops/G04671.pdf)

Optimum Planting Procedures for Eastern Gamagrass (http://agron.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/95/4/1054)

[Sligh1]

Looks like a bargain if you can get it done for $65/acre (plus atrazine, etc). Obviously this stuff comes back year after year right?!? I think I'd like to put some of this in, might wait another year BUT it's on my agenda for sure! Thanks for above info, really good stuff!

[letemgrow]

An individual gama grass plant may last 70 years if properly cared for. Their roots have air passages in them which supposibly allow for better hard clay pan penetration and to recovery quickly from flooded waters.

I doubt you would get much of a stand by broadcasting since it is such a large seed. I hand collected several pounds from remnant stands this past summer/fall and sent a sample off to be analyzed for germination percentage. It has been sitting in my fridge in damp peat since fall so hopefully I get a high number. If not, them maybe it was collected too early.

All mine will be hand planted in rows so I can select for traits I want more of, such as color, vigor, seed production and forage production. I will be fertilizing the gama along the roadsides this spring so when the DOT mows them, I will still be able to collect seeds later on. They got me on a few places last year when the gama was mowed right at seed collection time. :D

[letemgrow]

I like to use this photo as a reference, this is poor soil along a roadside where the cool season grass does not grow well and you can still see how good the gama grass is doing there. I collected several seeds off this plant from July-September. That is the one downfall I see to gama, the seeds mature periodically over a long period so harvest can be tricky.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Gama%20Grass/untitled1.jpg

[dbltree]

I'm going to re-post some great info from NWSG test plots done at the SE Iowa ISU Research Farm...simply because many of you wonder why frost seed even the non-dormant fluffy natives??

The following will give evidence that dormant seedings of NWSG will help landowners establish a stand much quicker then late spring or summer seedings....;)

Native Grass Establishment Demonstration Plots

Greg Brenneman, Ext. Ag Engineering Spec.
Kevin Van Dee, Farm Superintendent

Introduction

Current CRP programs have emphasized the use of warm season native grasses. In the early 1990’s a variety trial of different species and varieties of native grasses was established at the SE Research and Demonstration farm by NRCS staff. These plots have been very useful for landowners to see the growth characteristics of the different varieties. However, landowners have had many questions on what a seeding should look like during the establishment years. The project goal was to compare different seeding times and weed control methods in the establishment of native grasses.

Methods

In the fall of 2001, a plot area previously in corn was laid out for seeding to native grasses over the following 3 years. One third of the plot area was seeded each year. The remainder of the plot area was planted to soybeans until the year it was seeded to native grasses. This resulted in native grasses being established in 2002, 2003, and 2004.

Each year’s seeding was further subdivided into a late fall dormant seeding (late November – early December), a early spring frost seeding (late February – early March), and a late spring seeding (mid May – early June).

A diverse mix of native grasses and forbs (wild flowers) was used in each seeding. The primary grasses used were big bluestem, Indian grass, switchgrass, little bluestem, side oats gramma, and Canada wild rye. All of the seeding was done by broadcasting the seed on the surface. If disking needed to be done in the late spring for weed control, those plots were packed with a roller after seeding.

During the establishment year, each of the planting times was split and 4.0 oz/acre of Plateau herbicide was applied to one-half of each plot for control of annual weeds. In addition, during the establishment year, the plots were mowed 1 or 2 times for weed control.

Results

While each seeding time resulted in the establishment of native grasses, there were noticeable differences in the density and composition of the stands.

The fall dormant seeding and early spring frost seeding usually resulted in a more complete stand in the first year.
The fall dormant seedings also had greater variety and density of forbs observed in the first and second year.

With the late spring seeding, it was often the second or third year before a full stand of native grasses was established.

The primary weed challenges were heavy stands of giant foxtail along with field pennycress, common lambsquarter, and marestail. The use of Plateau provided good to excellent control of giant foxtail into mid or late summer depending on the year. This usually allowed full establishment of the native grasses with seed head production in the first year. Where Plateau was used, it was often noted that there was a greater density of native grasses and a lower density forbs in the second or third year.
A heavy stand of marestail was often seen in the second growing season.
Very little marestail was seen after the second growing season.

These plots were used as a part of 8 different public and interagency field days with a total attendance of over 200. The plots will be maintained for observation for the next several years.


I want to make sure that everyone understands that even though fluffies are not dormant, the seed is naturally dropped in late fall and lays on the ground thru the winter and germinates in the spring.

Dormant seeding is the natural way to seed and the ISU tests results are proof positive that dormant seedings result in a successful stand in one year versus 2-3 years for summer seedings.

Landowners of course are free to choose any method of planting but reccomending the poorest method to others is unfair and unwise advice.

Dormant seeding is not only the most effective but least expensive method that is also the most successful! Note that all of the seed was merely broadcasted...something any landowner can do without using expensive equipment.

In the case of fluffies a special broadcaster or fluffy drill will make the job easier but they can be rented at minimal fees...:way:

[letemgrow]

Broadcasting in winter works great!! Here is some big blue that I scattered by hand in fescue sod I sprayed and killed earlier that fall. Never did a thing to it after I scatter seeded it.

You can easily see the section on the left hand side where I did not spray/broadcast the big blue.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/big_bluestem.jpg

[tomt]

Looks nice Letemgrow !!!!!!!

OK guys,,,,,,,,,
I'm looking for ideas. Took a walk today and noticed that my grass waterways, which are mostly canary grass
and some other cool season grasses are pretty
well nocked down and laying flat.

As you can see in the attached picture, (The grasses to the right and
left are my CRP WSG's).

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/waterway2.jpg?t=1264801614

I was thinking of mowing this summer, probably would spray
a few times as that canary can be tough to kill, get a good late
fall spraying and hope I get a good kill.
Then I would probably frost seed next winter.
I'm thinking of switch and Big Blue, as then I could spray
with simazine or atrazine.
My concern would be, am I asking for trouble trying to seed in a waterway.
Some springs hardly any water flowing and some years
it can be as wide as the picture and flowing pretty swiftly.
Anyone have experience with this type of situation??????

Thanks, Tom

[dbltree]

Tom...I have found that by spraying and not illing the dead sod and roots hold the soil until the NWSG gets established. I did a whole series of waterways that are very steep and all on HEL land with no problems at all.

I would wait til late summer so that you are past the spring rains and it should be fine.

You might consider a combination of Oust XP and crop oil and roundup to kill the RDC...that is a wicked combination that switch and big bluestem can tolerate. Works best if that combination is applied in the fall, then use the atrazine/simazine/gly combo in the spring before May 10th and you'll be good to go!

Great pic and example of why we need to replace coolseasons with WSG!!

Letemgrow...great example of dormant seeding!!:way:

[letemgrow]

TOMT,

I would look at putting in some prairie cord grass and switch in your waterways after you get the RCG under control, but only after you get rid of that crap. DT gave some great advice on how to get rid for the RCG too.

[tomt]

Thanks guys,
I will definately try your spray combo Doubltree.
My biggest concern would be that all that nice expensive seed
would get washed away after frost seeding, but I suppose if it's going on killed sod it sort of gets "anchored in" so to speak. I also won't till, I'll
just mow, kill the sod, get a nice fall oust combo spray, then frost or dormant seed next winter, and spray a gly/atrzine/or simazine mix that following spring.
If I save enough pennies this year, I might even add a little prairie cord grass. Is pcg also compatible with those sprayings?

[letemgrow]

I am not sure about the Prairie Cord Grass, I will see what I can find out about it as most people do not plant it so I highly doubt it has much literature on the subject. Worst case scenario, I could ship you up some as I have lots of plants available for picking (they are all over the roadsides and wet areas in my area (zone 5). Then you could try them free of charge and see if they work before you waste any money on them.

[dbltree]

I might even add a little prairie cord grass. Is pcg also compatible with those sprayings? <!-- / message -->

I don't know about herbicide for PCG? if you want I can pick some seed and send you some next fall...won't be a 50# bag of it but enough to try getting some started...;)

[letemgrow]

Also TomT,

Lincoln Oakes nursery out of SD sells plugs of prairie cord grass so that may be a cheap way for you to get some started. It will spread by rhizomes so you really do not need a solid stand of it to start with. It will get there in time.

[tomt]

Thanks,
You guys are too kind.
Actually, I have an order into Lincoln-Oakes for a few hundred scrubs. I'll have to add a few plugs and experiment with the PCG. I have some wet areas in the 10 acres that I dormant seeded this past December. It'll be fun to see what happens.

[dkelley]

With the snow starting to disappear I am getting ready to plant 7 acres of CP-25. I was going to drill it but now thinking I might just as well broadcast it if I can find the right tools. Can anyone lead me to a Truax slinger in SE Iowa that could be borrowed or rented? Also considering buying a new one and then just putting it up for sale. Looks like they are going to run about $350 new from Truax. Anyone interested in buying a one time used one after I am done with it?

[tomt]

dkelly,
Did you call your county NRCS office?
I know here where I live they have one for rent.
Maybe give them a try.

[tomt]

dkelly,
You also may want to consider renting their drill.
I did about 10 acres this past December with the NRCS drill, and I have to say it worked really nice. The nice thing is you get a real even distribution
of the seed. It's easy to see where you have been. I used the drill as a drop spreader in the up position, basically, just like broadcasting with a lot
less walking.
Yesterday I frost seeded some CIR switch on the snow by broadcasting, which isn't hard, but I'm sure I got it on a little too heavy in some areas and a little too light in other areas. Where there was snow it was real easy to see what I was putting down, but then I got into areas with no snow and you sort of have to go by feel. Also, this was just switch seed, no fluffies to deal with.
I guess a lot depends on your area, is it frozen? Too much snow?
Whatever you do, good luck !!!!!!!
Tom

[dkelley]

Thanks Tom

Here in south east Iowa we are going to go from 10 inches of snow and have not seen anything above freezing since Thanksgiving straight to mid 40s and above freezing over night. I'm not sure that is going to allow me to get a tractor in once I see bare ground. I found a Vicon 3 point broadcaster that claims it will handle the fluffy stuff, now just waiting for the weather to cooperate.

[Sligh1]

Here's a late season pic of Indian Grass around December (2nd season of growth). I was in here this weekend and it actually was standing exceptionally well and almost looks as good as this picture. Cool part is: this is on ROUGH ground & it still is super tall- we're talking rocky JUNK ground! The stuff on better quality ground is much thicker/taller BUT the Indian seemed to be a top performer on my "junk ground", maybe even better than the switchgrass in THIS SCENARIO.

The next time I do some native grass seedings, I am going to try far more things. Like previously mentioned- I will be planting Eastern Gamagrass now that I have my corn planter & I'll make sure I time it right or get stratified seed. Love to try some others as well. I'd love to get about 5 different areas of stuff like one area of straight CIR, another area of Eastern Gama, CP-25, etc, etc.

Here's a question, what's the main NWSG's that are Atrazine resistant 1st year (I know Eastern Gamagrass, CIR switch, Big Blue Stem)- is there any others? My new seedings I think I'll go 1ST YEAR with Atrazine resistant only, 2nd year I'll be doing more stuff like CP-25, Indian, forbes, etc. Atrazine resistent NWSG's???


http://thedeerhunt.com/images/315-Grasslarge.jpg

[dbltree]

Beautiful Skip!! Mine is standing pretty well this year too!

Indiangrass is resistant the second year after establishment but I'm not sure beyond the ones you mentioned.

I suspect Little Bluestem would be resistant to atrazine too but I don't know that for a fact.

NWSG is very cool stuff and it is neat to try different plants and see how they compare and to just enjoy diversity...:way:

[ajadams]

This is from Welters.


Little Bluestem is a native bunch grass that spreads by seed and underground tillers. It grows 3 to 5 feet tall with roots 5 to 8 feet deep. It has finer leaves than Big Bluestem and is more drought tolerant. At one time it was the most widely distributed grass in America. It thrives on a variety of soils but produces best on medium and dry soils.


Establishment
Plant 1/4 inch deep. Do not use atrazine. Native grasses are slow establishing and weed control is vital during stand development.
Management
Livestock prefer this grass so do not graze below 8 inches. Cut for hay only once per season.
Product Type: Native Warm Season Grasses

Producer: (None)

Treated: No


I was thinking of putting in some little blue this year but i'm still up in the air on it.

[dbltree]

Do not use atrazine

The atrazine label mentions little bluestem and indiangrass for second year treatment only so probably not a good idea to use it on little blue in the establishment year.

Plateau and Panoramic are of course safe to use on everything but switchgrass.

Here's a link to some studies on establishing Little Bluestem...

Little Bluestem (http://www.cavs.msstate.edu/publications/docs/2007/08/3787PMN%20cimarron%20little%20bluestem_Maddox%20et %20al.pdf)

[IQDM]

I have a couple questions... I have an area that is Reed Canary Grass and I would like to convert into native grass. I am going to do the standard spray spray spray all summer and it will be ready for frost seeding in the spring. The problem is that the area I want to plant is next to a river and is under a foot of water right now! so I am assuming that next year will be the same deal when I want to frost seed. What should I do?
also in a low area like this that is under water for a short time in the spring but dries up in the summer, would switchgrass grow ok?
What are some other native grasses that would do well in low areas?
How does Prairie Cord Grass compare to Switchgrass?
sorry for all the questions... I'm still new to Natives and I just want to get it right the first time!

[IQDM]

what about statifying the seed by getting it wet and keeping it in the fridge for a few weeks then planting it when the area dries up? do I need to dry out the seed before I plant it then?

[dbltree]

I have a couple questions... I have an area that is Reed Canary Grass and I would like to convert into native grass. I am going to do the standard spray spray spray all summer and it will be ready for frost seeding in the spring. The problem is that the area I want to plant is next to a river and is under a foot of water right now! so I am assuming that next year will be the same deal when I want to frost seed. What should I do?

also in a low area like this that is under water for a short time in the spring but dries up in the summer, would switchgrass grow ok?
What are some other native grasses that would do well in low areas?
How does Prairie Cord Grass compare to Switchgrass?
sorry for all the questions... I'm still new to Natives and I just want to get it right the first time!

I would sow it in late November or early December before it starts flooding. Switchgrass can stand some brief flooding but Eastern Gammagrass can tolerate longer periods of flooding. (there is info on that subject in this thread)

[QUOTE][
what about statifying the seed by getting it wet and keeping it in the fridge for a few weeks then planting it when the area dries up? do I need to dry out the seed before I plant it then?
/QUOTE]


Yes you can stratify dormant seeds that way but don't completely re-dry them or they may return to the dormant state. It is much easier to sow in late fall or early winter before snows/floods hit then monkey around trying to stratify seeds...;)

[dbltree]

Here's a neat idea for sowing fluffy seeds on a small area... :way:

Homemade Fluffy Seed Broadcaster (http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31429)

[tomt]

I know as late as possible is the best time to burn for WSG's. Where I live I'm guessing early to mid-May.
However, this year we must be darn near a month ahead of time. Trees and bushes are breaking bud and the darn grass is getting pretty green and starting to grow. We have had a couple of days in the 80's already and quite a few 70's.
How tall can the cool season grasses get before it makes it a son-of-gun
to burn effectively????????
Took a picture yesterday,
http://i960.photobucket.com/albums/ae85/tomtuchscherer/Spring2010004.jpg?t=1270400953

I'm thinking if our weather stays above normal, with the rains they are predicting for this week, I may have to burn in two weeks or so.
Thoughts from the experts ????????
Thanks,
Tom

[dbltree]

As long as you have lot's of fuel (and it looks like you do) it will still burn but things like this are a judgment call on your part.

If you can wait a couple more weeks that should be fine....;)

[tomt]

Thanks Dbltree,
It's like the old "catch 22". Hate to burn too early, then have the weather get cool and those darn cool season grasses get going again, yet, hate to wait too long and all of a sudden, it's just too tough to burn.
Will probably do like you said, make a judgement call as time goes on, and hopefully, hit it right!
Crazy weather up here this year, it was 76 today again!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks,,,,,,,

[IQDM]

I'm still a NWSG rookie so i need some help with these...
The first one I think is Big Bluestem...?
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00038.jpg
and is this second one Switchgrass? there is some of this popping up where i sprayed the oust... There is native seed in wisconsin soil after all! :)
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00028.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00029.jpg

Sorry, the pictures are sort of blurry...

[dbltree]

The pic posted is not Big Bluestem

In this pic you can see Big Bluestem skylined...it has a "turkey foot" shaped seed head while Indiangrass has the thicker long plumey seed heads in this pic.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/7713rd_year_NWSG_Mix.jpg

The pic you posted almost looks a little like Canada Wild Rye to me?

[letemgrow]

Looks like the first grass is wild rye, the second looks like orchard grass to me.

[letemgrow]

Big Bluestem:

http://www.stonesiloprairiegardens.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/big_blue_stem.jpg

[letemgrow]

Switchgrass:

http://www.dnr.mo.gov/greenbldg/wildflowers/images/switch-grass.jpg

[dbltree]

I planted some Eastern Gamagrass seed the other day after stratifying the seed for a month in the fridge. It has to be planted an inch deep so it can't be broadcasted midwinter like switchgrass yet is even more dormant seed then switch.

The seed is large not unlike seed corn and can be planted with a corn planter but I tilled an area, broadcasted it and lightly tilled it in.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Easterngamagrass.jpg

EG is atrazine resistant so I hosed it down with 4 quarts per acre...we'll see how it does... :way:

[letemgrow]

Here is some gama grass seeds I collected last fall growing in rootmaker trays. Seem to be doing well so far this way!! The seeds I planted in rows on the bottom look just like corn at 4-5 inches tall.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Gama%20Grass/GamaGrass-2.jpg

[dbltree]

Here is some gama grass seeds I collected last fall growing in rootmaker trays. Seem to be doing well so far this way!! The seeds I planted in rows on the bottom look just like corn at 4-5 inches tall.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Gama%20Grass/GamaGrass-2.jpg

Dang! I never thought of that!! I planted mine but haven't seen anything coming up yet in the field...I may have to try this method next spring! :way:

[letemgrow]

I am hoping they have good roots by next weekend so I can just lift them out of the trays undisturbed and plant them along my creek bottom and see how well they can hold some soil. They should be getting close with how tall the tops are.

[letemgrow]

I picked out one gama plant last week and it has literally more than doubled in size!! Moved it up to a 12 inch bag and look at it now.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Gama%20Grass/GamaGrass-3.jpg

[dbltree]

Wow! That baby really took off! I checked mine the other day and I'm hopefull that some seed germinated but too early to be certain?

[letemgrow]

Wow! That baby really took off! I checked mine the other day and I'm hopefull that some seed germinated but too early to be certain?


Out in the field, you are probably looking for a 3-4 inch tall seedling that will look like corn. :way:

[dbltree]

Out in the field, you are probably looking for a 3-4 inch tall seedling that will look like corn. :way:

Right now I probably need scuba gear to find them! :confused::D

[letemgrow]

Right now I probably need scuba gear to find them! :confused::D

I know what you mean, I just finished planting my rice plots a little while ago. :D

The good thing about gama is they have air passages in their roots so it supposibly helps them when flooded.

Cross section of gama grass roots.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Gama%20Grass/EasternGamaGrass.jpg

[Weekend Warrior]

dbltree - I have been a fan of yours here and on QDMA for monthes. Thanks for taking the time to share your vast depth of knowlegde! This is actually the first time I have ever posted anything regarding NWSG or foodplots. I planted about 8 acres in of Clover/Chicory in early April. Which is how I stumbled across Lick Creek... I am amazed by your generosity with your time.

I have a couple of questions, if you or anyone else is willing to help, I would very much appreciate it. I manage an 11 acre townhouse complex that has substantial "green-space". The owner (essentially my boss) insists that we plant praire grass, right now. After reading hundreds of pages of posts, it is quite apparent that I am late in the game for 2010. I have burned the seedbed with gly and I could easily hire someone to spray atrazine.
1) Is it to late in the season to get NWSG started?
2) Please elaborate on the use of Atrazine. Can I use Atrazine with seed in the ground, before the seeds germinate?

Thanks in advance.

-Its O.K. to make mistakes. Just don't make the same mistake over and over again.

[Nontypcl1]

I just came across this website the other day and thought it could be useful for identifications purposes. Just thought some of you might find it helpful. I know I did.


Grasses of Iowa

http://www.eeob.iastate.edu/research/iowagrasses/index.html

[dbltree]

1) Is it to late in the season to get NWSG started?
2) Please elaborate on the use of Atrazine. Can I use Atrazine with seed in the ground, before the seeds germinate?


The fluffy NWSG like Big Bluestem, Indiangrass and Little Bluestem can be spring seeded but "spring" has come and gone so I would be hesitant at this point.

It's possible a late seeding could be successful but I would probably shoot for a late November dormant seeding at this point.

Atrazine is safe for switchgrass and Big Bluestem but not for Indiangrass and Little Bluestem.

Plateau is safe for everything but switchgrass so it depends on which natives you plan on planting?

[chronic]

I am here to seek advice regarding my quarter section of nwsg. I have read a lot of what has been posted previously and it is very interesting and informative. I am just sort of wanting advice about my particular situation. Here are the basics. Southwest Kansas, center pivot irrigation with approx 375 gpm well, nwsg began germination et growing in late may/early June, may still be sprouting for all I know. Rather heavy infestation of crabgrass, exceptional rains this spring gave good to excellent subsoil moisture in very sandy, rolling sand hills. Began watering with a 36 hour complete circle, about a week ago changed to a 48 hour complete circle. At this point all the grass remains green without apparent distress. The nwsg grass persists in spite of a lot of crabgrass. The crabgrass is so thick it has supressed a lot of pigweed! This is a CRP planting. After this year I will not be allowed to irrigate it(don't want to as it is costing me approx 2500.00 per month to do so). I know mistakes were made in the planning and implementation of this but at this point what is done is done and I would seek advice about what to do in the immediate next few months and next year! Hope I gave enough information. I will check here frequently for any comments, thanks.

[chronic]

Just got back from a look around on the above mentioned ground and I would like to add a few more things. There are four corners associated with this circle of nwsg crp planting. Three are planted to the same exact mixture, one has been unplanted. These corners were drilled with nwsg last year. Two turned out good. The other seemed pretty thin so I had it drilled again this year. The corners are not irrigated. Southwest kansas is considered semi-arid desert I believe. To me, there is a little difference between the irrigated and non irrigated nwsg. It is hard to know all the factors that make the difference, There is no crabgrass pressure on the corners. Just thistle and pigweed mostly. It seems like the dryland nwsg is a darker green, a little more mature looking but sort of shorter I think. What we are thinking is to move to a 4 day complete circle next to encourage/take advantage of the nwsg rooting deeper than the invasive grasses? What do you think? So I have been reading a lot of info here about switchgrass. I am really wanting to make my place somewhere the bucks like to hang out. There are a lot of deer in the area. The southeast corner of the quarter is the highest elevation of the quarter. It is, it looks to me the result of the thin topsoil blowing of the rest of the ground and piling up there. I have dug into it just to look and it is some of the best topsoil on the quarter. Six to 7 acres of this corner are virtually flat. It is like a little plateau up there. I thought it would be a good idea to put it to switchgrass. What do you think Mr. dbltree? By the way the corners have not been farmed for years. It has been designated unsuitable for dryland farming.

[letemgrow]

Little bluestem is a great grass for really dry areas chronic if it has not already been planted there. I have seen it get up to about 4 feet tall which would still make great screening cover for bucks.

[chronic]

dbltree, please see my previous posts. I hope you can make some suggestions. Maybe I should have started a new thread?

[dbltree]

dbltree, please see my previous posts. I hope you can make some suggestions. Maybe I should have started a new thread?

Sorry I have been trying to ctach up on field work now that the rains have stopped..

It sounds to me like you need to shut off the water to dry up the crabgrass and allow the NWSG to dominate as you are seeing in the corners.

Because you have a mixed NWSG planting it makes using herbicides difficult because there is none that might not have an effect on the others.

Big Bluestem and Little Bluestem are probably better adapted to your area and will probably perform equally as well as switchgrass. Switchgrass really prefers moist rich soils although it will grow on sandy droughty soils...just not as tall and robust.

I'm not sure if I am answering your questions or not so holler back and we'll see if we can address them. If you can get some pics that would be helpful too...either post them or email to dbltree2000@yahoo.com

[chronic]

Thanks, dbltree! Wow, I am excited by your suggestion to shut off the sprinkler. Would you be able to elaborate on your thinking on that one. I will say that on the corners there never was any pressure from the crabgrass. I will try and do the pictures asap. Anyway I would love to hear your reasoning regarding the irrigation. Hoping to hear from you soon, thanks again, chronic.

[chronic]

I would like to add, dbltree, that I am not questioning your expertise, I am just the kind of guy who likes to know the reasoning behind things. Also, I just paid my diesel fuel bill that runs the irrigation-$4500.00. If I was smart I would shut it off and never question why!!!!

[dbltree]

shut off the sprinkler. Would you be able to elaborate on your thinking on that one.

NWSG's are adapted to dry hot summer conditions and cool seasons like the crabgrass are not and thatis evident by the fact that in the non-irrigated corners the natives are thriving and the crabgrass is not.

Our native prairies existed for thousands of years with no help from anyone except for prairie burns started by Native Americans who knew that a burn = green grass = bison returning...;)

If the corners with no water also had no NWSG then you might have cause for concern but since that is not the case...shutoff the water and starve the cool season competition.

You may have to monitor the natives that have been recieving water because they may need some time to adjust and allow thier roots to go deeper in search of. If they start to suffer water them but do so far less frequently until they have adapted....:way:

[chronic]

I don't know about Iowa, dbltree, but in Kansas, crabgrass is a warm season grass that does not germinate until the ground temperature is warm enough for nwsg to germinate also. Hence, my big problem. It puts out tons of seed, when the nwsg is drilled it incorporates the crabgrass also and it all germinates at dang near the same time. I don't know how much the crabgrass is going to hurt me but I want to minimize the damage it does.

[letemgrow]

I always considered crabgrass a warm season annual. I see it pop up all over when it really gets warm out and crabgrass handles dry conditions very well in my area at least.

There may be some herbicides that can be used to get rid of the crabgrass and keep the nwsg. I know outrider can be used for certain nwsg's, but not sure if it has any affect on crabgrass or not. May be something for you to look into chronic.

[letemgrow]

Here is a link to the Outrider Label: It does not label crabgrass, but several other plants are on there and it can also be used for residual control around tree plantings.

http://www.biotechgoodtogrow.com/monsanto/ag_products/pdf/labels_msds/outrider_label.pdf

[chronic]

Thanks letemgrow, well last night and early this morning we received a total of 2.5 inches of rain. I shut off my sprinkler and plan to leave it off for the next few days. Probably not much I can do at this point but waite till next year and use a product called Plateau that is labeled for crabgrass and will not harm the other established nwsg which includes some switchgrass. I think I am going to spray my corners with some 24d and ALLY. Thank God for the wonderful rain we received. I saw a nice buck this morning bounding around the edge of the cornfield next to my crp this morning.