Switchgrass

[dbltree]

Since switchgrass is a different "breed" so to speak then the rest of the NWSG, I thought I would make a separate post regarding it's establishment.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrass-1.jpg

Switchgrass is in my opinion the very best cover for both deer and pheasants. The NWSG mixes have their place and if you can plant some of each, as I have, you can provide the best in nesting habitat and winter cover.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchgrassCloseup-2.jpg

Switchgrass is the ultimate in winter cover because it will remain standing. A heavy wet winter snow will bend it over, but after a little sun it will spring back upright...the same cannot be said of other prairie grasses which can end up flat as a pancake by spring.

Switchgrass is best frost seeded because it needs to stratify by means of wet, freezing, thawing action common thru late Jan. to early March. It can be broadcast or drilled in killed sod or crop stubble at 5-6# per acre.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/5lbsswitchgrass.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrassseed1.jpg

A bag seeder works well for larger acreages

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Equipment/BagSpreader.jpg

3 pt seeders will also work well but adjust the opening to barely the width of the small seed or you'll end up with "dumped" in a small area.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Equipment/Adjustspreader.jpg

Drills work well on frozen soils in late winter and see need only be dropped on the surface

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/771Truax_Drill.jpg

Switchgrass is like corn, it loves nitrogen and is atrazine resistant. Atrazine is a RUP (restricted use pesticide) so you either need to have the elevator or a farmer with a RUP applicator license apply it. (or have a farmer friend buy it for you and put it on yourself

Atrazine can be put on at 2-4 qts per acre (more is better)...you can't kill it and if you control weeds and grass it will go like gang busters the first year.

Spray small areas by hand:

http://www.jonesfish.com/pictures/102c/Solo-Backpack-Sprayer.jpg

or larger areas with a field sprayer:


http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Sprayer.jpg

NOTE: Journey herbicide can kill or injure new seedlings so is not the best bet for straight switch. You can apply Journey to established switch when it is dormant (very early spring)
If you control weeds by mowing, it will take 3 very long years!! If you mow...do not mow more then 8-12" high as you can easily kill new seedlings.

Once established it is best to burn every 3-5 years, or mowing if burning is not an option.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchfire2.jpg

Do not apply nitrogen on a new seeding as it will only encourage weed growth, after that it's optional. If you have good corn ground it will do fine with out any help. On poor ground you can thicken the stand with fertilizer.

I find that deer love my switchgrass year around! Beds abound in it and I have jumped countless bucks that left me agape as I watched them vanish in the tall grass.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SertabySwitchgrass.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Runwaythruswitch.jpg

The power plant at Ottumwa is currently using baled switchgrass along with coal to fire the plant. It's hoped that switchgrass will become a viable, renewable power source as well as income for producers with HEL.
If you are not signing up a new CRP contract (which will require the NWSG mix) you may prefer to give straight switchgrass a try...for deer cover, you won't be sorry!
Here's a great link to more info on establishing switchgrass.

Seeding Recommendations (http://agebb.missouri.edu/mac/library/linkview.asp?linknum=1539)

Osenbaugh’s Prairie Seed Farms (http://www.prairieseedfarms.com/) is a great Iowa seed source

While Cave In Rock is my favorite for holding mature whitetails, there are many varieties to choose from. There are two main types of switchgrass: upland types, which usually grow 5 to 6 feet tall and are adapted to well drained soils, and low land types, that grow up to 12 feet tall and which are typically found on heavy soils in bottom-land sites.

I have found that most other varieties other the CIR tend to die out over time and you can see pictures and examples further along in this thread.

Switchgrass varieties:



Upland varieties

Cave In Rock is one of the tallest, rankest, most winter hardy and longest lived
Shawnee and CIR are the two top varieties in Iowa tested for bio-fuels production

Trailblazer is a good tall variety

Nebraska 28
Blackwell a shorter variety better suited for upland bird habitat
Caddo
Pathfinder

Forsetburg Upper plains states
Dakotah

Lowland varieties

Alamo
Kanlow
<table id="table21" class="emphasis-pub-lightyellow" border="1" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2" bgcolor="#ffff00">Upland Varieties</td></tr><tr><td width="14%">Trailblazer</td><td width="86%">Developed by USDA-ARS and Nebraska Agricultural Research Division, Dept. of Agronomy, Univ. of Nebraska. Released 1984. Collections from natural grasslands in Nebraska and Kansas. Adapted to Central Great Plains and adjacent Midwestern states. (Good choice for Midwestern / Southern state areas)</td></tr><tr><td>Blackwell</td><td>Developed by Plant Materials Center, NRCS, Manhattan, Kansas. Released 1944. Upland type switchgrass. Widely adapted to Kansas, Oklahoma, southern Nebraska, and northern Texas in areas with 20 inches or more of annual precipitation. (Good choice for Midwestern / Southern state areas)
Technical Info:
http://www.plant-materials.nrcs.usda.gov/news/features/great_am_plant/blackwell.html (http://www.plant-materials.nrcs.usda.gov/news/features/great_am_plant/blackwell.html)




</td></tr><tr><td>Cave-in-Rock</td><td>Plant Materials Center, NRCS in cooperation with the Missouri AES. Released 1973. Tolerant to flooding. Adapted to Midwest. (Good choice for Midwestern / Southern state areas)
Tech Info: http://www.plant-materials.nrcs.usda.gov/pubs/mopmcfscavinroc.pdf (http://www.plant-materials.nrcs.usda.gov/pubs/mopmcfscavinroc.pdf)




</td></tr><tr><td>Dacotah</td><td>Northern state variety.
Tech Info: http://www.plant-materials.nrcs.usda.gov/pubs/ndpmcrbpavi2daco.pdf (http://www.plant-materials.nrcs.usda.gov/pubs/ndpmcrbpavi2daco.pdf)




</td></tr><tr><td>Pathfinder</td><td>Selected at Nebraska AES, Lincoln, ARS cooperating. Released 1967. Winter-hardy, late maturing. (Good choice for Midwestern / Northern state areas)</td></tr><tr><td>Sunburst</td><td>Northern state variety. (Good choice for Northern states) - Larger seeds are ideal for wildlife food purposes.</td></tr><tr><td>Caddo</td><td>Selected at Oklahoma AES, Stillwater, ARS cooperating. Released 1955. Forage yield under irrigation outstanding for native grass; recovers well after mowing.</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" bgcolor="#ffff00">Lowland Varieties</td></tr><tr><td>Alamo</td><td>Developed by Texas Agricultural Experiment Station and NRCS, Knox City, Texas. Released 1978. A premier lowland variety, heavy yields especially in the south. (Good choice for Southern states)
Technical Info: http://tfss.tamu.edu/pasture_grasses.htm (http://tfss.tamu.edu/pasture_grasses.htm)




</td></tr><tr><td>Kanlow</td><td>Developed at Kansas AES and ARS, Manhattan. Released 1963. Developed for soil conservation in poorly drained or frequently flooded sites. (Good choice for Midwestern / Southern states)
Technical Info: http://okcrop.com/kanlow_switchgrass.htm (http://okcrop.com/kanlow_switchgrass.htm)
Also: http://www.plant-materials.nrcs.usda.gov/pubs/kspmcnl7249.pdf (http://www.plant-materials.nrcs.usda.gov/pubs/kspmcnl7249.pdf)




</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">Basic variety info Source: Oregon State University, 2006 (http://www.nativegrasses.com/info/switchgrass.html#oregon). </td></tr></tbody></table>

Planting 5-6#'s per acre in February or March to help stratify dormant seed, broadcast or drill into killed frozen sod. It is important to remember that switchgrass seed is often naturally dormant may not germinate with out being stratified first. Stratification occurs naturally in the wild by being exposed to the cold wet chill of late winter rains and freezing/thawing action. It also can occur by aging seed for 1- 3 years but then the number of viable seeds per pound can begin to drop as well.

Frost or dormant seeding is the natural way that switchgrass perpetuates itself in a wild prairie but common perception is that the soil must be tilled and the tiny seeds "planted" like conventional crops. This is the largest cause of failure or delayed germination as dormant seed lays there until exposed to cold wet chill the following year.

Cave In Rock is one of the most sought after switchgrass varieties because it is such a tall and dominate species but it is also one of the most dormant seeds. Dormancy however is not an issue when seed is broadcast or drilled onto frozen soils in February or March.

Blackwell is one of the least dormant along with NE28 and are better suited for spring drilling but they are more susceptible to rust and disease then Cave In Rock and therefor may not be as long lived.

Tilling the soil is not only unnecessary but only encourages weeds, erosion and increases the expense of establishing switchgrass and does NOTHING to better the odds of establishing a stand. Odds of failure have proven lowest among frost seed switchgrass stands.

Dormant seeding is the least expensive most successful method of sowing all NWSG and forbs and that makes it easy for almost anyone to plant them with little or no equipment.

Switchgrass will grow on most soils from sand to heavy clay but thrives on rich moist soils and can handle some brief flooding along waterways.

Herbicides Atrazine or simazine at no less then 2.5 quarts per acre before weeds emerge and they can be combined for more effective weed control.

Atrazine is a Restricted Use pesticide that requires a license to purchase so that requires having an ag co-op/farm elevator apply it of purchasing thru a farmer or friend who has a license. Although atrazine has received a great deal of attention because it has been applied at up to 34.7 million gallons on our nations corn fields, thus ending up in waterways and drinking water, it is NOT a problem for a one time application to establish switchgrass.

Atrazine 4L herbicide label (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld71G001.pdf)

Simazine (brand name Princep 4l) is an unrestricted trizine herbicide that can be used alone or in conjunction with atrazine or Oust XP at roughly 2 quarts per acre. Both simazine and Oust XP are commonly used on tree plantings so are useful herbicides in anyone's habitat program.

Simazine 4L herbicide label (http://www.montereyagresources.com/wp-content/plugins/ewm-product-manager/files/Simazine4L_0808.pdf)

Oust XP has proven to also be a highly effective pre-emergent herbicide for weed control in switchgrass plantings. Use 1-2 ounces per acre (it can be fall or spring applied before switchgrass emerges) and runs roughly $5.50 an ounce from Townsend Chemical. The label recommends that one wait 3 months before planting switchgrass if 2 ounces of Oust is applied so applying in late fall or early spring is safest, although I have had no problems with late spring and switchgrass emergence.

Oust XP Label (http://www.afpmb.org/pubs/standardlists/labels/6840-01-356-8891_label.pdf)

Townsend Chemical will sell Oust XP by the ounce (minimum 2 ounces ) and it runs under $6 an ounce.

Townsend Chemical (http://www.townsendchemical.com/)

Paramount (Quinclorac) is a post emergent herbicide approved for switchgrass, big and little bluestem and side oats gama and applied at 5.3-8 ounces per acre as is effective at controlling emerged foxtail.

Paramount Label (http://www.greenbook.net/Docs/Label/L47354.pdf)

Drive 75 is another Quinclorac product identical to Paramount but available in smaller more affordable quantities

Drive 75 Herbicide - 1 LB (Quinclorac, Quinstar) (http://www.keystonepestsolutions.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=205)

DRIVE 75 DF HERBICIDE WEED CONTROL CRABGRASS Quinclorac (http://compare.ebay.com/like/200455947948?ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&rvr_id=154476915964&crlp=1_263602_304662&UA=WXF%3F&GUID=671fdee712a0a0645b52b2a2fff61e76&itemid=200455947948&ff4=263602_304662)

Paramount and Drive 75 can be applied to growing switchgrass and will effectively kill growing foxatil and other annual weeds.


Dual Magnum II (S-metolachlor) works very well and is not a RUP but it can cause problems unless the seed is safened (protected) with a seed safener like Concep, an inexpensive product that is used to safen sorghum seed as well. Dual can be applied at up to 2.5 pints per acre and can be applied in combination with both atrazine and simazine including a combination of all three.

Concep Seed Safener source (http://www.browningseed.com/bsstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=607&zenid=735598633ef3d58d84905f761cbf8491)

Dual MagnumII Label (http://www.syngentacropprotection-us.com/pdf/labels/SCP818AL1M0204n.pdf)

Cinch ATZ (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld6DM004.pdf) is a pre-mixed combination of atrazine and s-metolachlor.

Accent is approved for corn and switchgrass primarily for controlling annual grasses but it quite expensive.

Accent Label (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld8RQ002.pdf)

Accen Source (http://www.keystonepestsolutions.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22&products_id=242&zenid=b906480fdeeb50a7cd3505e24c2ccfb6)

After switchgrass has 3-4 leaves, use 2-4D at 1-3 quarts per acre to kill broadleaves.

NOTE: A combination of glyphosate, atrazine and/or simazine and crop oil can be applied up to May 10th to both kill late germinating cool season grasses and provide season long control.Burning Maintain switchgrass plantings by burning every 3-5 years although more frequent burnings are helpful. It is very important to burn late in the spring, late April through mid May to set back and discourage cool season invasives and encourage the switchgrass (and other natives). The switch will grow quickly on the sun warmed blackened soil allowing it to over power and dominate other invasive species.

Lime and fertilizer

Switchgrass will respond to proper soil nutrition even though it will grow on almost anything. Soil testing is recommended first and applications of lime and P&K the fall before is best. With excellent residual weed control, nitrogen can be applied the establishment year and like corn, switch will grow quickly with higher N levels. Without good weed control however nitrogen will only encourage a flush of weed growth and have the opposite affect on the seedling switchgrass.

Once established urea can be applied in mid to late June just before a minimum of a 1/2" of rain to encourage tall robust growth. Burning however is all that is really needed to turn straw and thatch into nitrates that the plant can use and is the inexpensive and natural way to rejuvenate and encourage switchgrass growth.



Switchgrass is the most popular and easily managed native grass in the Midwest. Seeding this warm season grass can vary from region to region and even site to site but there is one fail safe way to get results on your pure stand of Switchgrass, that’s a frost seeding. To ensure the maximum results from your frost seeding, you should broadcast the Switchgrass before February 28th. Even with snow on the ground you should broadcast right on top, the Switchgrass will work its way down to the soil. Ideally it’s best to broadcast right before a good snow and let that accumulation help the Switchgrass seeds settle into the ground.

Then right around April 1st it’s recommended to apply 2-4 pounds/quarts to the acre of Atrazine to your initial seeding. This pre-emergence herbicide will keep most annual weeds from sprouting. Another option instead of using Atrazine is to clip the weed canopy when it blocks at least 50% of the sun energy from getting to the new seedling. This may take up to 6 times the first year to allow the Switchgrass to grow unabated. Both of these approaches help the new seedlings establish themselves in the soil so they can overtake the other grasses, such as brome, that already exist. May 5th – 10th you should spray the field with Round-up to kill the brome, and get rid of any competition for the Switchgrass. Frost seeding Switchgrass will give you a good solid stand with the least amount of maintenance, and provide many years of wildlife attracting habitat and provide excellent hunting grounds.


Osenbaugh's Prairie Seed Farms
Nathan Pace- Sales Consultant
800-582-2788 - Office
641-766-6795 - Fax
515-975-1400 - Cell
nate@prairieseedfarms.com
Prairie Seed Farms (http://www.prairieseedfarms.com/)


Switchgrass Seed Dormancy issues

Stratification in Switchgrass Seeds (http://crop.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/41/5/1546)

Planting and Wet-chill to break dormancy (http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/forage/418-013/418-013.html)

Breeding forReduced Post-Harvest Seed Dormancy in Switchgrass (http://jpr.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/1/99)

Because of its potential as a renewable biofuels crop, interestin the grass is increasing and the land area being planted toswitchgrass is expanding. However, establishment of desirablestands can be a problem because post-harvest seed dormancy causeslow germination and slow seedling development (Beckman et al., 1993 (http://jpr.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/1/99#BIB2);Zarnstorff et al., 1994 (http://jpr.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/1/99#BIB10)). Post-harvest dormancy in recentlyharvested seed of some switchgrass cultivars can be as highas 95%, and the seed can require up to 2 yr of after-ripeningto become germinable (Shen et al., 2001 (http://jpr.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/1/99#BIB7)). This lengthy after-ripeningperiod can be reduced by cold stratifying the seed (Zarnstorff et al., 1994 (http://jpr.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/1/99#BIB10);Shen et al., 2001 (http://jpr.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/1/99#BIB7)) or treating the seed with different chemicalsor growth regulators (Haynes et al., 1997 (http://jpr.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/1/99#BIB3); Tischler et al., 1994 (http://jpr.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/1/99#BIB8);Zarnstorff et al., 1994 (http://jpr.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/1/99#BIB10)). Stratification is the most practicalapproach to break dormancy because it can be accomplished simplyby planting the seed, provided the soil environmental conditionsmeet the stratification requirements. However, this also canbe problematic. If switchgrass seed are planted into moist,cool soil in the spring, several weeks of stratification arerequired before germination is initiated, but uncontrollableenvironmental events can negatively impact stratification andsubsequent germination. If seed are planted into a dry soil,for example, stratification is initiated only after a rainfallevent, and the soil temperature must be low enough to chillthe seed before germination. If it does not rain until latespring or early summer, the soil temperatures can be too highfor stratification to occur, and germination is delayed untilthe temperature and moisture conditions are favorable, whichmay not occur until the following spring.

Even if the conditions for stratification are met and the seedgerminate, seedlings emerging in late spring or early summerface the prospect of unreliable rainfall, which also can negativelyimpact stand establishment. An approach that can circumventthese uncontrollable environmental events is to artificiallystratify the seed before planting, but this also can be problematic.If the seed are artificially stratified but the weather or soilconditions are not conducive to planting, the seed must eitherbe placed in cold storage or quickly dried to prevent sprouting.Unfortunately, drying stratified seed can cause some of themto revert back to a dormant state Other suppliers:

Sharp Brothers Seed (http://www.sharpseed.com/)

Ernst Seed (http://www.ernstseed.com/price_list.aspx)

Welter seed (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=172)

Bamert Seed Company (http://www.bamertseed.com/switchgrass.html)

Stock Seed Farms, Inc. (http://www.stockseed.com/prairiegrasses_product_display.asp?pid=411)

Browning Seed (http://www.browningseed.com/bsstore/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=200_262&zenid=b593928728d146c40ea71e8144e92076)

Turner Seed (http://www.turnerseed.com/site/Pictures_planting.htm)

Seedland (http://www.nativegrasses.com/info/switchgrass.html)

nannyslayer (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=6799) here on this site carries Cave In Rock switchgrass seed, just send him a PM

[strutnrut]

Switchgrass does offer a lot of cover but that is all it really has to offer. There is not to much nutritional value to it. If all you want is cover it would be ok. But if you are looking for food and cover I would reconmend Native grasses. CP 25 would be a excellent choice.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Switchgrass does offer a lot of cover but that is all it really has to offer. There is not to much nutritional value to it. If all you want is cover it would be ok. But if you are looking for food and cover I would reconmend Native grasses. CP 25 would be a excellent choice. </div></div>
I have both plantings and have had for years, however I have found no food to be available in the NWSG mixes. The wildflowers quickly die out leaving only the dominate grasses and Big Bluestem provides no more "food value" then switchgrass. The best thing in ANY wildlife cover is diversity. Plant areas of Switch for cover, NWSG mix for nesting habitat, legumes for brood rearing and deer feed, grain crops for fall and winter habitat.
I can't convey strongly enough this fact...NO deer or pheasants are likely to starve to death...deer are likely to be shot by poachers or leave your property for areas with better cover. Pheasants and quail are far more likely to die of exposure to harsh winter elements and predators, then die for lack of food. Switchgrass is what keeps them both alive thru the winter months when nothing, including CP2 and CP25 mixes are left standing. I have been working with PF chapters for many years to establish the best habitat and while switchgrass is not the ONLY answer, it is one of the most important aspects of upland habitat.
Since I have all of the factors mentioned above, I can tell you firsthand which cover deer prefer, without question and when we have a foot of snow I can tell you where the birds will be.
I can take you to several places in my area...where the ONLY pheasants are in large fields of switchgrass...and while we're flushing the birds...bring your camera...cause your gonna see some bucks too! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[cornfield]

Thanks for the information. I have about 30 pounds of switchgrass and indian grass that I am planting this spring. Very helpful info.

[JNRBRONC]

Deer in switchgrass? Unheard of!!
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/CRPbuck2.jpg

Being a pyro, I just had to add this:
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/CRP_burn_b_1_.jpg

[dbltree]

Deer in switchgrass? Unheard of!! :)



As they say...a picture is worth a thousand words!!! Very cool

[m_kat]

Switchgrass comes in a variety of forms, ranging from native ecotypes which barely grow over two feet tall to stuff that grows over eight feet tall and has stems that look like bamboo. Some are very aggressive and some are not. Just know what you are planting before you stick it in the ground. Planting the wrong stuff can cause irreversible damage to surrounding plant communities.

[iowaqdm]

How tall will Cave-In-Rock switchgrass get when mature? Dbltree- Is this what you have planted on your farm?

[TimberPig]

The 3 acres of Cave-in-Rock that I planted in '03 is now from 3' to 6'+ (most is on the taller side) and very thick. You can not see the ground when standing in it and it is fabulous cover. It is hard to bird hunt though for that same reason, even with a dog it can be nearly impossible to find a downed bird in that stuff let alone walk in it for extended periods. Much easier to hunt a NWSG mix. Still, I wish I had more switch acres.
CP25 is what I have going in this spring, not entirely by choice. The forbs do seem like a waste of time in the mix. They limit what you can use for herbicides and I dont see how they could survive the competition from the grass for long. The idea of broadcasting some switch into a few of these areas next spring is tempting.

[Renobber]

i got a dog that will find a down bird http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif i promise i won't mess up your deer hunt lol

[dbltree]

How tall will Cave-In-Rock switchgrass get when mature? Dbltree- Is this what you have planted on your farm?



I have planted several varieties over the years including Blackwell and Shelter, but Cav-n-rock has done the best for me. I would say it runs from 4-5 ft depending on the quality of ground it's on. Give it some nitrogen and it will get even taller and thicker.

Planting ones' entire farm with it is not the best overall wildlife management effort, but at least 10 acres in the appropriate area's for winter cover will be a huge help.
I have heard all the hype about "mixes"...I've tried them...they have a place in my conservation program, however...switchgrass is KING for providing the very best of the best in prairie cover.
My intention is not to argue with anyone over the merits of any plantings...each landowner must judge for him or herself and decided what their goals are?
I will try to get out and take late winter pictures of both types of plantings and I urge any other posters to share pictures also. It can help others decide what might work best to meet their own goals for optimum wildlife cover.

[TimberPig]

dbltree- I would agree with most everything you have posted. Switch is definately some great cover. I would also agree that I would not plant a huge area of just switch, especially if I were a bird hunter. Some guys I know that only bird hunt have planted straight switch and really regretted it for the reasons I posted. Its just too hard to hunt. That, of course, is what makes it such good cover. As an example, I have an IR thermal imager that is provided by my employer. Not one of the cheasy $300 deer finders, this one is military spec, has a full color LCD screen, and cost over $14K (it's rediculously cool btw!). I have watched deer at night using the imager from a 50' height advantage, and have seen them completely disappear in that stuff. When infrared light can't escape it, that is some pretty impressive cover.

I wonder though about your experiences with snow collapsing NWSG and its ability to rebound. In december we had heavy wet snow like most everybody did, about 8". It flattened my CIR switch, which like you said, came back up after a week or so of melting. Today you cant tell it was ever down. But after reading your posts on this subject I went and looked at a neighbors CP25 planting and it was standing tall as well, as if it had never been snowed on. Is that your experience with NWSG, that it will eventually come back up, or does yours always stay down for the winter once its down?

[dbltree]

dbltree- I would agree with most everything you have posted. Switch is definately some great cover. I would also agree that I would not plant a huge area of just switch, especially if I were a bird hunter. Some guys I know that only bird hunt have planted straight switch and really regretted it for the reasons I posted. Its just too hard to hunt. That, of course, is what makes it such good cover. As an example, I have an IR thermal imager that is provided by my employer. Not one of the cheasy $300 deer finders, this one is military spec, has a full color LCD screen, and cost over $14K (it's rediculously cool btw!). I have watched deer at night using the imager from a 50' height advantage, and have seen them completely disappear in that stuff. When infrared light can't escape it, that is some pretty impressive cover.


I wonder though about your experiences with snow collapsing NWSG and its ability to rebound. In december we had heavy wet snow like most everybody did, about 8". It flattened my CIR switch, which like you said, came back up after a week or so of melting. Today you cant tell it was ever down. But after reading your posts on this subject I went and looked at a neighbors CP25 planting and it was standing tall as well, as if it had never been snowed on. Is that your experience with NWSG, that it will eventually come back up, or does yours always stay down for the winter once its down?




That imager sounds awesome! What a cool toy!!

This year the snow was not heavy enough to make my NWSG mix go flat, nor have I seen anyone else's stay down.

It's been maybe 5 years or so...can't just remember, but we had huge drifts and very heavy snow before Christmas because I hunted with my muzzy and could hardly get down the back roads.
That year the snow stayed for awhile and by spring my mix was flat, but my switchgrass was standing tall.

I just ordered some more NWSG mix myself...it's great habitat. I just want everyone that is concerned about providing top quality, year around premium cover, to think about using switchgrass on a portion of their property.

Having your whole farm in switch is not what I'm advocating, but many people have been mislead into thinking that NWSG mix is the ONLY answer. It's certainly much better then brome which IMO is completely worthless.

I know people that have hunted pheasants from mules, because the switchgrass was so hard to walk thru...why did they do that...cause it was loaded with pheasants!!
Mix up your habitat, plant some Mix, some switch and food plots and you will have an awesome conservation/wildlife program going on!!

[dbltree]

See...even the President loves Switchgrass!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Switchgrass: The Super Plant Savior? (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Business/story?id=1566784&amp;CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312)

[iowaqdm]

dbltree, I have some brome grass that I would like to convert to a bedding area with cave-in-rock switchgrass. I am considering doing it this spring. Wont get any cost sharing. How would you recommend going about it? I want a good stand as fast as I can. Don't want it to take three years if I can avoid it. Would like to avoid having to mow it three times next summer if possible. But I will if it needs to be done. Would you frost seed into the the brome and wait? Mow the brome, after green up spray with round-up, then drill it in or broadcast? Plant a journey ready mix this spring then frost seed switch into it next year? The reason I ask is after reading your first post you talked about drilling or broadcasting in killed sod which would have needed to be sprayed last fall to frost seed this spring. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[dbltree]

dbltree, I have some brome grass that I would like to convert to a bedding area with cave-in-rock switchgrass. I am considering doing it this spring. Wont get any cost sharing. How would you recommend going about it? I want a good stand as fast as I can. Don't want it to take three years if I can avoid it. Would like to avoid having to mow it three times next summer if possible. But I will if it needs to be done. Would you frost seed into the the brome and wait? Mow the brome, after green up spray with round-up, then drill it in or broadcast? Plant a journey ready mix this spring then frost seed switch into it next year? The reason I ask is after reading your first post you talked about drilling or broadcasting in killed sod which would have needed to be sprayed last fall to frost seed this spring. Any suggestions would be appreciated.



Normally it's best to have mowed it last summer and kill it with Roundup in Sept. but I understand your wanting to get started this spring.

I would burn or mow the brome asap....burning would be perfect as mowing would still leave a lot of trash. I've mowed in Feb. many times...so no need to wait.

In your case it would be better to notill drill if you can't burn. Then as soon as the brome get's to greening up good, kill it with Roundup.

If you decide to go with the NWSG mix, go the same route only you may need to add a little more Roundup to the Journey herbicide (it already contains Roundup...but barely enough for what you need)Then plant the switchgrass next winter.

If you plant switchgrass alone, you can have Atrazine aprayed on to help with grass/weed control...can be tank mixed with Roundup. If you have to plant switch later in the spring, you can stratfiy the seed your self ahead of time by soaking in cold water. Other wise the worst that MAY happen is that it may not germinate until next spring.

My preference:
Burn/mow asap
drill switch asap after
Spray with Roundup/Atrazine after greenup (2 qts Atrazine is allowed on CRP...but 4 qts is better!!)




Why do we need to use a herbicide such as atrazine?





Using herbicide will work MUCH better then mowing the first year. Switch seedlings don't like being mowed at all!

Plenty of Atrazine is best...can't put on to much for switchgrass!

Switchgrass is slow to establish and spends the first year growing down rather then up.

Cool season grass and weeds will compete with the new switchgrass seedlings slowing and imepding it's growth. In some cases weeds may evn cause the new switchgrass seeding to fail altogether.

Herbicides help control or eliminate weed competition and speeds switchgrass growth and establishes it in 1-2 years rather then 3-4.

Note: Switchgrass seed and Atrazine are a WHOLE lot cheaper then NWSG mix and Journey!! ;)

[iowaqdm]

My preference:
Burn/mow asap
drill switch asap after
Spray with Roundup/Atrazine after greenup (2 qts Atrazine is allowed on CRP...but 4 qts is better!!)
Using herbicide will work MUCH better then mowing the first year. Switch seedlings don't like being mowed at all!
Plenty of Atrazine is best...can't put on to much for switchgrass!
Note: Switchgrass seed and Atrazine are a WHOLE lot cheaper then NWSG mix and Journey!!;)




If I drill switch asap after burning/mowing will the switch be germinating when the brome starts to green-up? Will I kill the switch with the Roundup/Atrazine mix? Do I want to fertilize with nitrogen the first year to help with growth/establishment or wait until second year?

[dbltree]

If I drill switch asap after burning/mowing will the switch be germinating when the brome starts to green-up? Will I kill the switch with the Roundup/Atrazine mix? Do I want to fertilize with nitrogen the first year to help with growth/establishment or wait until second year?



The switch won't germinate until very late spring as a rule, so hit the brome with Roundup as early as possible in April. Soon as it greens up it should be perfect for a good kill. Don't wait until mid May! Soil temps are the key as switchgrass will start to germinate at about 68-70 degrees soil temp.
I often spray established stands of switchgrass in early spring with Roundup if I get some cool season grasses "sneaking" in. Never had a problem because the switch is still dormant.

Atrazine won't hurt it at all so timing won't matter on that, except that it works best as a pre-emergence herbicide, so should be put on early also. 2-4D works great in late summer for broadleafs rather then mowing also.

If and it's a big if, you have excellent weed/grass control via herbicide then you could put some nitrogen on later in the summer. Ammonium Nitrate would be a good bet because you will lose Urea unless it's put on just a head of a rain. If you don't have good weed control, then forget the nitrogen the first year...it will only encourage the problem.

Here's a few more notes on germination etc.....

REGENERATION PROCESSES :
Switchgrass reproduces both sexually and vegetatively. Rhizomes are
responsible for vegetative expansion, but spreading ability depends upon
growth form. Some rhizomes of sod-forming ecotypes may extend to
lengths of 1 to 2 feet, while those of bunch-forming
ecotypes may extend only a few inches. The primary site of
nonstructural carbohydrate storage is in the stem bases, roots, and
rhizomes.

Switchgrass generally produces abundant seed. Natural stands often yield 100 pounds of seeds per acre , and cultivated stands
may yield 300 to 500 pounds of seeds per acre.

The seeds are shed in fall or winter and require winter dormancy before they germinate in the spring. Germination begins when soil temperatures reach 68 degrees Fahrenheit .

Seed collected from southeastern Montana and northeastern Wyoming had relatively high germination rates; 70 to 90 percent at temperatures between 68 and 86 degrees Fahrenheit. Fulbright and others reported germinative capacity of 40 to 70 percent.

The importance of switchgrass seedling recruitment into prairie habitats is scarcely discussed in scientific literature. In tallgrass prairie, switchgrass tillering and rhizome production generally begins 5 to 7 weeks after germination, unless competition is severe . Three months after germination, plants may be 12 to 20 inches tall, and roots may be 12 to 30 inches deep.

Table 1
Effect of atrazine on yields of big bluestem and switchgrass during the establishment year.1

Big Bluestem

Without atrazine
680 pounds of yield per acre
Wth atrazine
6400 pounds of yield per acre

Switchgrass

Without atrazine
0 pounds of yield per acre
Wth atrazine
4940 pounds of yield per acre

Time of seeding

Early planting is critical even though warm-season grasses do not germinate when soil temperatures are below 50 to 55 degrees F. Early establishment allows seedings to develop good root systems before summer drought and greatly increases the ability of the grasses to compete with weeds.

Native grass seed typically contains higher percentages of dormant seed than cool-season forages. One way to break dormancy is to chill seeds that have absorbed water. Planting early into cool soil will chill the seed and can cause dormant seed to germinate.

Seeding into warmer soil in late spring can be helpful in controlling weeds. The first flush of weeds is allowed to germinate and then is killed by final tillage or contact herbicide just prior to planting. Ideally, this practice would result in the shortest period of bare ground and would get grass seedlings up as quick as possible to compete with other weeds.

Fertility

While warm-season grasses are good producers on low-fertility soils, adequate P and K will increase stand vigor and production when these elements are low in the soil. Having the soil tested is the only way to know the proper level of P, K and lime to use. Lime is not necessary if soil pH is 5.5 or higher.

Nitrogen is not recommended when establishing warm-season grasses because it leads to increased weed competition. However, established stands will respond positively to 40 to 60 pounds of N per acre. Nitrogen should be applied when early growth is at least 3 to 5 inches tall. Earlier application will favor weeds and invasion of cool-season grasses into the stand.

This link contains info. on how to do the "ragdoll" test to check germination and how to stratify your seed if your unable to plant it early enough to let Mother Nature do it. :)

Planting and Managing Switchgrass (http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/forage/418-013/418-013.html)

Switchgrass Production (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM1710.pdf#search='frost%20seeding%20switchgrass')

[iowaqdm]

dbltree, If I burn the brome grass and drill in cave-in-rock switch grass what rate would you spray the roundup/atrazine mixture? Would you spray 2 quarts of roundup mixed with 4 quarts of atrizine per acre after green up? What would the spraying cost be per acre if I hire the elevator (approximately).

[dbltree]

dbltree, If I burn the brome grass and drill in cave-in-rock switch grass what rate would you spray the roundup/atrazine mixture? Would you spray 2 quarts of roundup mixed with 4 quarts of atrizine per acre after green up? What would the spraying cost be per acre if I hire the elevator (approximately).



I'm just guessing here, but when I have had my corn sprayed in the past (RR corn) and they used a Roundup/Atrazine combo I think it was about $30-35 an acre.

They might not be willing to put on 4 qts either (2 qts is approved on CRP for switch establishment) I had someone buy the Atrazine for me and put it on myself at a rate that would actually be effective.

My second choice would be spray Roundup early and then 2-4D after the switch has 3-4 leaves to kill broadleafs. I've found that the Roundup pretty much wipes out the brome...but broadleafs are just laying there dormant...waiting to spring up, but they are easily killed with 2-4D.

If you hire it done, it will be expensive no matter what you have put on...at least that's what I have found. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

Here's a great link to the Chariton Valley Biomass project with lots of good info. as well as more great reasons to plant switchgrass /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Prairie Lands Biomass (http://www.iowaswitchgrass.com/prairielandsbiomass.html)

First year Switchgrass seeding with no herbicide. No evidence of switchgrass at this point.
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/7711st_yr_Switchgrass.jpg

Same field 3 years later, no herbicide, weeds clipped in late summer first two years.
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/7713rd_Yr_Switchgrass.jpg

Example of switchgrass using Atrazine. This is the first summer. Note the untreated area to the right where it appears there is no switchgrass at all.
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/771Switch_with_Atrazine.jpg

This area was planted to switchgrass but none appeared to come up. I planted it to trees and sprayed with Oust and Princep and was surprised to see the switchgrass "spring" up seemingly out of no where!
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/771Switch_in_Oust_Treated_Areas.jpg

Most of my original switchgrass was seeded in the late fall on Roundup killed sod using a Truax drill. It was not a no-till drill.
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/771Truax_Drill.jpg

The combination of corn and switchgrass makes for top quality wildlife habitat. Winter long standing cover and food. Makes poaching extremely difficult!
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/771Swithgrass_and_Corn.jpg

Switchgrass at winters end 2005/2006. Switchgrass in this picture is a mix of Cave In Rock, Trailblazer and Forestburg varieties.
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/771Switchgrass_in_late_winter.jpg

Big Bluestem gone flat by later winter 2005/2006
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/771Big_Bluestem_gone_flat.jpg

Big Bluestem in the same field still standing. This is Roundtree Big Bluestem, the previous picture the variety is unknown.
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/771Big_Bluestem_still_standing.jpg

Roundtree B.B. and Rumsey Indiangrass still standing although 2005/2006 winter was a very mild one with little heavy snow.
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/771NESG_mix_in_late_winter.jpg

[dbltree]

Goldenrod is always trying to invade in my switchgrass so every so often I hit it with 2-4D. I sprayed about 20 acres of switch and some NWSG for about $40.
Anything with broadleaves starts to wilt within 24-48 hours but it takes awhile for it to completely die.
This pic is about a week later...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Goldenrodandswitchgrass.jpg

[dbltree]

Here's a few pics of my switchgrass starting in spring and how nitrogen affects growth.

A mature switchgrass plant in late spring showing almost no growth yet.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrassinspring.jpg


Switchgrass in June. This plant is along the edge of the corn and got a good dose of triple 19...notice the switch in the background isn't as tall.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchgrassinJune.jpg

Same plants in Late July again showing the lush green growth comes from plenty of nitrogen.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchlovesnitrogen.jpg

I side dressed a 100# of 46-0-0 (urea) on my corn the very end of June and I took a pass down thru my switchgrass.


http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchgrassinJuly.jpg


This is about 3 weeks later. Cost me $95 to side dress 5 acres of corn so if one wanted to "perk" up your cover it's not that pricey.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchafterurea.jpg

[dbltree]

I know some of you are trying to figure out if you have switchgrass growing yet...or not. Been there...done that! Very frustrating the first year!

Here's a few pics of small switch seedlings to maybe give you an idea. Most all of it will be forming seed heads shortly which makes your search much easier.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/1styrswitch.jpg

Many of these I confirmed small seed heads forming although they don't show up in the pics very well.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Newswitchgrass2.jpg

They spend most of thier energy growing down not up the first year

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Newswitchgrass1.jpg

Hang in there, have paitence...in a few years you will have some of the most awesome cover you could ever hope for!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchgrassCover.jpg

[SWIABOONER]

Not trying to start an arguement just some other points to be made. I agree with your statements about switchgrass being great winter cover. And your exactly right in saying not to plant it in large quanities on your farm. That being said (great winter cover) it is about worthless for producing pheasants and quail. As is any grass dominated stand. Young birds need protein to grow and they get it from insects, and insects are found in weeds and forbs(native flowers) In my experience we see the most bird production in very weedy areas. We seed anywhere from 20 to 70 acres a year to native grasses. We see most of our broods in the newly seeded areas when they start coming up to weeds(button weed, sunflowers, ragweed etc.) Young chicks ecspecially guail need lots of bare ground as well. 50% is not to much. If you think about how small a baby quail is there is now way he can move through a solid stand of grass. That is where the clumpiness of the other native grasses come into play. We plant mainly little bluestem its very clumpy and provides very good cover. Big bluestem is very bad at going down in a heavy snow. Indian grass is a lot better. Don't forget about the wildflowers as they are what's going to give the broods something to eat. So I guess what I'm trying to say that yes switchgrass is great winter cover for holding birds but you need weeds and diversity to produce them.

P.S. don't forget shrubby cover for the quail during the winter. Wild plum and grey dogwood are great native shurbs for quail. I would wager they will use shrubby cover in winter before the switch grass. Providing it is a large enough area so that it doesn't full with snow.

[dbltree]

I totally agree...don't plant the whole farm to switchgrass! I have mixed NWSG stands, clover and alfalfa and grain crops all adjacent to my switchgrass.

In my case winter cover is the sole limiting factor for upland birds and protection against poachers for my deer. It's why I strongly advocate pure stands of it in everyone's habitat project. It is however only one piece of the puzzle...not the whole pie!

I find (and most PF research will support me) that a pure stand of alfalfa left unmowed thru the critcal nesting period will be a pheasants first choice for nesting.

Clover and alfalfa will be high on the list for both hen turkeys and pheasants to take thier broods feeding. Nothing draws more insects for small chicks and poults then legume blossoms!

Most wildflowers in NWSG plantings are way too high and generally do not last long in a mixed planting. (nothing against them...just that there is something better)

As I have stated before...take a drive in Jan and Feb...what do you see across this state??? NOTHING!! Fall plowed ground for miles and miles, CRP planted to brome and even NWSG that is flat as a pancake!

Then drive by a switchgrass stand...ask permission to walk thru it. Every pheasant and deer in the area will be calling it home!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/MidAugustswitchgrass.jpg

Here is an interesting link to a thesis done in South Dakota. It comapares DCN (Dense cool season nesting cover) made up of Crested wheatgrass, alfalfa and brome, WCN (Warm Season nesting cover) made up of Switchgrass, Big Bluestem and Indiangrass and pure alfalfa stands.

Nesting Thesis comparing nesting cover types (http://wfs.sdstate.edu/wfsdept/Publications/Theses/Rock,%20Marcus%20E.%20MS-2006.pdf#search='pheasants%20nesting%20in%20alfalf a')

The DCN and WCN was prefered largely because they were CRP plantings, left undisturbed..which of course is the key.

The alfalfa fields surveyed all were being intensely cropped with 4-5 cuttings. So in these cases the alfalfa was not high enough in the spring and nests were almost sure to be destoyed by haying equipment!

Most of us on this forum are dealing with acreage in the CRP program so whatever we plant is not going to be mowed during the nesting season.

One key thing from this study is that the dominate species in the WCN comparison...was Switchgrass

My CRP habitat is comprised of all types of nesting, feeding and winter covers and I would encourage those who can, to diversfy thiers as well!

[locust]

I'm in my first year of a CP25 mix being planted on my place...supposedly with a bit more switchgrass thrown in.. and it appears it is doing ok so I can't wait to see it next year. I've tried planting dogwood/wild plum and I've just had a hard time keeping the invading grass from smother them...any tips to help get these established from your experience? I'd love to have them get established...but it appears my plantings from two springs ago were overriden..I just can't seem to mow/spray close enough to the small seedlings to keep the competition from them...I tried planting the quail packet from the DNR...any tips would be appreciated and maybe I'll try next spring again.

[dbltree]

Quote:
I'm in my first year of a CP25 mix being planted on my place...supposedly with a bit more switchgrass thrown in.. and it appears it is doing ok so I can't wait to see it next year. I've tried planting dogwood/wild plum and I've just had a hard time keeping the invading grass from smother them...any tips to help get these established from your experience? I'd love to have them get established...but it appears my plantings from two springs ago were overriden..I just can't seem to mow/spray close enough to the small seedlings to keep the competition from them...I tried planting the quail packet from the DNR...any tips would be appreciated and maybe I'll try next spring again.



Try this post for a lot of info on herbicides, weed mats etc. to help in the battle with weeds and grass around trees: Tree Planting (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=QDM&Number=129246&fpart=&PHPSESSID=)

It is a real battle the first few years

[Muddy Fork]

I have a small ditch that runs between two fields that I have to use to excess my woods when hunting. It is about 6' wide and I need to plant something to give me cover when walking it. I've thought about plant switch grass with some white cedars spaced 6' apart. I want any thoughts about this and also what switch grass grows the tallest? I have a few other acres in CRP filterstrips and CP-33 in NWSG mixes. This ditch leads to one of my filterstrips.

[JNRBRONC]

My guess would be that if you have 6' tall switch grass in this ditch you are using as an access route, you are going to jump lots of deer bedded in it when making your way to your woods.

[Muddy Fork]

It's a 6' wide 2-3' deep ditch. They could bed there, but I have better bedding cover and no other way to get to my woods and I thought the more cover I'd have walking across the field the better.

[TimberPig]

I would agree with jnrbronc about the bedded deer problem. You might be ok if you kept the switch in a narrow band like 20' wide. I wouldnt plant switch in with any type of tree though, one fire and your trees will be toast. You might consider a couple rows of shrubs like dogwoods too, they grow pretty fast. White Cedars = deer candy from what I have heard, you would probably have better luck with red cedars surviving.

[JNRBRONC]

A brome waterway with red cedars. The cedars might hide you on the way in, still worry about busting deer on the way, but you can't prevent that. Sneak in under darkness for morning hunts, but what about evenings?

Sounds like a case for a stroll inside a double bull blind!

[dbltree]

I wouldnt plant switch in with any type of tree though, one fire and your trees will be toast.



I'll second that...don't ask me how I know ;)

If you decide to plant, I prefer Cave N Rock switchgrass as one of the tallest rankest forms of grass cover.

I can't say if it will work as you hope, but it will provide excellent cover year around. (just forget planting any cedars in it...red or white!)

Here's a link to biomass testing comparing yields and using Atrazine and other herbicides just to give you an idea (not to many government studies on the best switchgrass to sneak to your deer stand...

Switchgrass study (http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/bioen98/vogel.html)

[Muddy Fork]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You might be ok if you kept the switch in a narrow band like 20' wide. </div></div>
It's a 6'-10' narrow band.

[dbltree]

You might be ok if you kept the switch in a narrow band like 20' wide.


It's a 6'-10' narrow band
.





Doesn't sound like that would be wide enough to encourage any bedding deer and a narrow strip like that is a bad deal for nesting birds since predators will just hunt that strip end to end.

Otherwise it might work for a screen.

In other threads people have been wondering "where are the bucks"? Why don't I see them?

Here's a little clue... A friend planted perhaps 40 acres into switchgrass nearly 4-5 years ago on a relatives farm.

Every year since it has gained height we have walked into that field to check progress...and every time there is nothing but antlers blasting out of that field!

It's unbeliveable! Those bucks live in that field, perhaps year around but for sure all summer. Not a woods in site, hidden from spotlights, easy to escape in any direction.

From the size of some of them...they have been surviving quite well in thier little "forest" of switchgrass!

[dbltree]

The CRP field day at the ISU research farm was an excellent place to observe a wide selection of switchgrass varieties that were planting in the 80's.
It's easy to see which ones will survive the test of time as you can see by the following pictures.

I would also like to mention that the DNR had lists of plants and the number of wildlife species that use that plant.

Switchgrass had 67 species that use it, while Big Bluestem had only 11!!

I got there before anyone else and spent some time visting with ISU's Greg Brenneman and IDNR's Tim Thompson about switchgrass and NWSG plantings.

These men pheasant hunt together and have put in many test plots and helped out with countless prairie grass plantings plantings. Both agreed that a pure stand of tall rank switchgrass was an extemely important part of anyone's wildlife habitat program. The benefits of a pure stand are tremendous.

Several other points they made to the crowd...is what do you want from your habitat?? Ask yourself that question before deciding what to plant...are you managing for quail or pheasants? Deer or butterflies? Everyone has a different need, in my case it's deer first and then upland birds.

Another point was that you can plant switch and clover in seperate plots in mid contract management plans ( NEVER mix them)and you can get the full 50 points needed for your EBI index on new CRP bids with a CP4D rather then a CP25.

CP4D need 5 species and switchgrass can be planted over most of it, clover for burn stops (or deer attractant ;) ) adding some tree and shrub plantings for windbreaks, etc.,so don't be misled into thinking you have to plant the whole place in CP25

After all these years Cave-In-Rock switchgrass clearly stood out as the winner! It was tall, thick and great cover after 20-30 years! :)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cave-in-RockSwicthgrass.jpg

compared to others which like this one no longer exsited:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/CarthageSwitchgrass.jpg

Blackwell is one that I have planted myself and been very dissapointed with. What you see inthis pic is mostly Indiangrass and Little Bluestem that has self seeded from other plots as well as Goldenrod which is next to worthless

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BlackwellSwitchgrass.jpg

Again what you see in this pic is very little switchgrass but little blue and other plants:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Nebraska28.jpg

Again mostly little bluestem:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TrailblazerSwitchgrass.jpg

Alamo was the only other one that had a decent stand and I'm not so sure that the Cave-in-Rock hadn't self seeded into the plot.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AlamoSwitchgrass.jpg

Frost seeded Cave-in-Rock switchgrass
March 3rd 2002:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FrostseededSwitchgrass.jpg

If you have questions about these plots or signup concerns, give these guys a call:

Greg Brenneman ISU Ext. (319) 337-2145

Tim Thomson IDNR (319) 354-8343

[TimberPig]

That was a great post Paul. Pretty good example pics there. Of course, I wish you had posted this a year ago when I was signing up for CP25, LOL! I was able to make a last minute change in my mix this spring to include a percentage of Cave-In-Rock switch. Those flowers in the CP25 are pretty and all but I hope the CIR starts to take over quickly! John Osenbaugh told me that in 10 years I could expect the planting to be largely CIR because it will outcompete the others. That is something for folks to consider if they are not allowed to go with pure switch.

Right now I only have a little 2.5 acre patch of pure CIR, split down the middle by a small creek. It is bordered to the west by a gravel road, to the south by my driveway, and north and east are crops and new CP25. My house sits on a hill overlooking the CIR about 125 yds away. Even though the deer could easily bed in the cornfield across the road, or in the timber behind my house, they very frequently choose to bed right next to the road in that CIR. Its pretty cool to watch a buck mill around in there and then just disappear when he lays down. They dont leave when I mow right next to it, blade the drive, whatever, they must feel very safe in there. That stuff is really THICK .

[dbltree]

Your on the right track with both pure CIR switchgrass and mixed NWSG stands TP! Your well on your way to a wildlife haven

Just a reminder to those considering switchgrass....

You should be preparing for late winter frost seeding NOW! Mow if you haven't already, let it start to regrow and as they said at the CRP Field Day....KILL KILL KILL

Spray it with a full dose of Roundup and surfactant (Roundup Max already has surfactant in the mix but generics do not)
Normally I spray in mid to late September after mowing in August.

If you have CRP, remember you can sign up for haying and have a farmer cut and bale it. They take 25% of your payment but you should be able to sell it to the farmer for that and end up even up..and you don't have to do the mowing

All residue is removed and that's a key to frost seeding prairie grasses.Soybean stubble is perfect as well.

A little planning will go along way to a successful seeding

[dbltree]

It never fails that someone is always trying to tell me switchgrass is to thick for wildlife to use it ;)

Here are some pics of switchgrass and Indiangrass...both pretty darn thick.

I guess sometimes someone should go tell the deer, turkeys (yes my turkeys love switchgrass ) and pheasants....that doggone it...you shouldn't be here...it's too THICK!

Switchgrass up close

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrasscloseup.jpg

Indiangrass up close:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Indiangrasscloseup.jpg

This a first year stand of Big Bluestem with a little IG in the pic also.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/YoungBigBluestem.jpg

Sometimes it's amazing what you can learn just by years of observing...you can't get that out of a book

[locust]

I've had a stand of CP25 put in this year. It looks OK, I see flowers and big bluestem for sure, but the others are too short for me to tell what else will come in. I just can't tell if it is IG or switchgrass. I was told to not burn next year, but the following year and then I'll start seeing good results. Do you think I could frost seed into the current/live CP25 stand to have more CIR in my stand? I may wait and see next year how it looks, but I'm looking to beef up the CIR in the mix. I have a few acres left to play with and maybe I'll go straight CIR there.

[dbltree]

Do you think I could frost seed into the current/live CP25 stand to have more CIR in my stand? I may wait and see next year how it looks, but I'm looking to beef up the CIR in the mix. I have a few acres left to play with and maybe I'll go straight CIR there.



You can frost seed into the NWSG stand but I would just pick an area that you want to be a bedding area and try adding CIR there perhaps next to the acres that haven't been seeded yet.

Even though I feel switchgrass is great bedding and winter habitat, I wouldn't want anyone to switch ALL their habitat to pure switch. A portion in switchgrass and the rest in NWSG is the ticket!

The Big Blue and Indian Grass can be pretty competitive at first and once they get a head start it may be hard for CIR seedlings to get going, compared to seeding all at the same time.

One thing about it...it's easy enough to do! Best time is Feb and early March using a hand broadcast spreader. Set it low cause that stuff will be gone in no time as small as it is!

[dbltree]

Took a little hike thru my switchgrass the other day...sure is a lot of deer beds like this one:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Deerbedinswitchgrassstand.jpg

The switch isn't as pretty as the NWSG mixed stands...but pretty is as pretty does...it does the job

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrassstand.jpg

Most NRCS people still tend to give bad advice when it comes to planting switchgrass.

There is so much information on the need for switchgrass seed to be stratified before it will germinate that it makes it difficult for me to understand why they still encourage May/June seedings


It's easy to see from other posts how well frost seeding of clover works...and it works even better for switchgrass. Without the wet/chill process it normally will not germinate until the following year.

Some people get around this by soaking the seed in cold water in mesh sacks and refrigerating it for several weeks to imitate Mother Nature.

Older seed stored at warm temperatures will also sometimes cause it to break dormancy.

Why fight it? Plant it Feb/March and let the weather do it's job just as it did for eons before we showed up

Be sure to start now!

If it's in brome or fescue, mow it close now, let it start to green up and kill it with a full dose of Roundup!

Better yet...seed into a field that was planted to RR beans...the bare soil is perfect to broadcast or no-till drill switchgrass on frozen ground.

If possible use Atrazine the first year, or clip weeds 8-12" high and spray with 2-4D in late summer to knock out broadleaves.

Right now Cave-in Rock seed is running about $10-12 a pound and you need 5-8# per acre. Often you can get discounted seed thru a Pheasants Forever chapter which trhu the state level has much greater buying power. Good reason to become a PF member!

From this Switchgrass link (http://www.emdc.msue.msu.edu/Bulletin/PDF/E2987.pdf):




Warm-season grasses have varying degrees of seed dormancy.
Switchgrass naturally drops its seed during the
fall and winter. In northern regions, overwintering naturally
cold stratifies the seed, thereby reducing existing
dormancy. Cold stratification can also be done by allowing
the seeds to imbibe water and then chilling them at
4 degrees C for 2 to 4 weeks. However, stratification
may be avoided by aging the seeds for a year. Seed that
is more than 1 or 2 years old could have reduced
viability.

Because seed dormancy is common in switchgrass,
seeding rates are standardized using a convention
referred to as pure live seed (PLS). Switchgrass seed
sold by seed companies should be sold by percent PLS
in addition to the percent purity, germination and hard
(dormant) seed. When determining the pounds of bulk
seed needed per acre, the purity and germination percentages
must first be changed to respective decimals
(e.g., 95 percent purity would be 0.95). The PLS calculation
is made by multiplying the purity decimal by the
germination decimal, excluding dormant seed that may
germinate later but would not generally germinate within
2 to 4 weeks. The desired number of pounds of pure
live seed (PLS) is then divided by the product of the
purity X germination calculation. For example, if the
target planting rate of switchgrass seed is 9 pounds
PLS/acre and the tag indicated that seed purity = 90 percent,
germination = 75 percent and hard seed (will not
germinate) = 15 percent, the following calculation would be made: 0.90 X 0.75 = 0.675 = PLS decimal.
Target rate ÷ PLS decimal = 9.0 ÷ 0.675 = 13.3 bulk
pounds.
Therefore, 13.3 bulk pounds of switchgrass seed per
acre would be needed to obtain the target rate of
9 pounds PLS per acre. Variables affecting optimal rates
include method of seeding, precipitation patterns, temperature
patterns, seed predation and anticipated weed
competition.






Few more links to info about switchgrass:


Switcgrass seeding reccomendations in Iowa (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM1773.pdf)

Switchgrass profile (http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switchgrass-profile.html)

Planting Switchgrass in winter to break dormancy (http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/PDF/switchgrass.pdf)

STUDIES ON THE PLASTICITY OF DORMANCY AND ON AGING IN SWITCHGRASS SEEDS (http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-8297-134015/)

Planting and Managing Switchgrass for Forage, Wildlife, and Conservation (http://www.wildlifemanagement.info/files/wildlife_plantings_8.pdf)

Breeding for Reduced Post-Harvest Seed Dormancy in Switchgrass (http://jpr.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/1/99)

If seed are planted into a dry soil,<SUP> </SUP>for example, stratification is initiated only after a rainfall<SUP> </SUP>event, and the soil temperature must be low enough to chill<SUP> </SUP>the seed before germination. If it does not rain until late<SUP> </SUP>spring or early summer, the soil temperatures can be too high<SUP> </SUP>for stratification to occur, and germination is delayed until<SUP> </SUP>the temperature and moisture conditions are favorable, which<SUP> </SUP>may not occur until the following spring.<SUP> </SUP>
<SUP></SUP>
Even if the conditions for stratification are met and the seed<SUP> </SUP>germinate, seedlings emerging in late spring or early summer<SUP> </SUP>face the prospect of unreliable rainfall, which also can negatively<SUP> </SUP>impact stand establishment. An approach that can circumvent<SUP> </SUP>these uncontrollable environmental events is to artificially<SUP> </SUP>stratify the seed before planting, but this also can be problematic.<SUP> </SUP>If the seed are artificially stratified but the weather or soil<SUP> </SUP>conditions are not conducive to planting, the seed must either<SUP> </SUP>be placed in cold storage or quickly dried to prevent sprouting.<SUP> </SUP>Unfortunately, drying stratified seed can cause some of them<SUP> </SUP>to revert back to a dormant

Switchgrass germination tests (http://www.plant-materials.nrcs.usda.gov/pubs/mspmctn9504.pdf)

The seed of switchgrass is very small, and much of it is dormant (will not germinate) right after it is harvested. However, aging, treating it with water and chilling temperatures (stratification) or storing it in warm conditions will break dormancy.

[passinthru]

Dbltree,

I have about 25 acres of fescue I would like to convert to CIR.

Too late to spray, maybe I should mow it. I know the Atrazine has residual though. The full rate of Atrazine won't be a problem, I am a farmer. Was planning on frost seeding the switch.

What would you suggest I do at this late of a start.

Thanks for your time.

[dbltree]

Dbltree,


I have about 25 acres of fescue I would like to convert to CIR.

Too late to spray, maybe I should mow it. I know the Atrazine has residual though. The full rate of Atrazine won't be a problem, I am a farmer. Was planning on frost seeding the switch.

What would you suggest I do at this late of a start.

Thanks for your time.






Fescue is one of the toughest grasses to kill and it's important that you do KILL it!

I would mow it any time even later this winter and if it's possible burn it before broadcasting the CIR switchgrass in mid to late winter. (it can be no-till drilled or broadcast)

The switch seed won't germinate until early summer so the best bet will be to kill the fescue just as soon as it starts to green up with the full rate of Roundup. (Atrazine alone isn't going to do the trick on fescue)

Atrazine can be applied then or anytime before weeds emerge (if your a farmer...you know the drill on Atrazine )

Fescue...if allowed to survive would never let the switchgrass get a start so it's very important to kill it and kill it good! <

[passinthru]

Thanks Dbltree,

Yep, I planned on Roundup w/ the atrazine. I'll mow and try to burn it. May have to hire the burning done. Can't wait to get this started.

Thanks again.

[dbltree]

Speaking of switchgrass...

I wear a little headlamp on my cap to walk in and out in the dark and one morning this hill side looked like Christmas lights

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Octoberswitchgrass.jpg


Plenty of deer camping out in the "tallgrass" for sure!

Have I mentioned that before?

[passinthru]

Dbltree,

I have been talking with some people that burn for a living, mostly in MN, WI, and some in S. Dakota, so there not real familiar with southern Iowa.

They are recommending not burning till next spring, and not mowing so I have a very hot fire, I think he called it Class 5, but I could be wrong.

I want to frost seed the CIR in Feb or march, would you mow it still and try to burn,then frost seed it. Or should I leave it unmowed for a hotter fire.

I would really like to get it seeded and on its way this year. But I know lack of planning on my part should not create an emergency for everyone else.
Thanks

[dbltree]

lack of planning on my part should not create an emergency for everyone else.



I would say they are giving you good advice

If you can burn it in mid winter then you would have a good clean seed bed to seed into in March, even if it's late March.

Burning would be better then mowing but it's the timing...will you have snow cover until April?

Ideally...I mow in late summer, kill the new growth with RUP in September and seed in late winter, so it does make it tough at this point.

If you can burn it...even in very early April, seed and then spray the new growth with RUP you could make it work.

What grass is there now? Brome or fescue? That could make a difference in your plans as well.

Planning is important and it's very important to get a good kill on whatever is there now.

Burning later in the spring and then planting RR soybeans and spraying the sod several times thru out the summer is the best bet.

You kill the sod, the trash rots down and you are all set to winter seed (just food for thought for those in the planning stage )

[passinthru]

Thanks Dbltree,

My farm is in Clarke county, I should be able to burn down there fairly early. Do you think Mid Feb. is too early? I believe I'm dealing with fescue.

This is on HEL so I dont know if I can get RR beans in there, have a hard time even getting my neighbor to mow it. He rolled an anhydrous tank there when he used to row crop it.

Hope to create some fire breaks there soon, probably rent an atv brush hog or see how big my neighbors stalk chopper is. Having all my equipment 3 hrs north puts a crimp in things sometimes.

Sold my chopper last year anyway.

[dbltree]

He rolled an anhydrous tank there when he used to row crop it.





Ok...so maybe no row crops! ;)

Just to remove the "trash" cover you could burn anytime, but Feb. would be fine.

The trick is going to be trying to kill that fescue in one shot when it comes back up

We'll have to cover more details on killing fescue this winter. It's difficult to kill it in one shot.

With switchgrass you can also use atrazine to help control weeds and grasses also.

In future years the timing of your burn will be important to kill any fescue coming back. Late spring burns will be important then.

[dbltree]

Took a little hike thru the switchgrass stands the other day.

Few deer highways...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Runwaythruswitch.jpg

Tried to scare up a pheasant but all we put up were turkeys!

Blasted things will scare the livin daylights out of you in this stuff!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Wadinthru.jpg

If your going to hunt with a Golden Retriever might want a bell on em

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Hiddenintheswitch.jpg

Looks like they still find it a comfy place to nap

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SertabySwitchgrass.jpg

Wonder what I would see if I stuck a trail cam in thier "bed room" ;)

[ajadams]

I'm thinking about putting in some switchgrass in a few spots my dad had dozing done. I was thinking about cave in rock but noticed it reproduces with underground stems. Am I going to have problems controlling it down the road along his corn fields? Is there another type that doesn't reproduce this way? I was also looking at big bluestem but it was $155 an acre. I'm looking at doing maybe 10 Acres = $1550 Wow. Is there a cheaper route to go? Also some of it is on hel so I was going to throw oats or something in with it, will that hurt anything?

[dbltree]

You will not have a problem with switchgrass "spreading" to other fields via tillering. It's a very slow process and it basically helps to thicken the stand rather then spread it.

If it does spread at all it will be by windblown or animal/bird carried seed.

there are thousands of acres of switchgrass planted along riparion buffers and waterways adjacent to cropland that I have observed for years.

None of it has spread so much as a foot.

I have seen native big Bluestem spread by wind blown seed..but not into cropland but rather into CRP ground

Generally most corn or soybean herbicides including Roundup will prevent any native grasses from taking ahold in actively farmed ground.

Cross that off your list of worries ;)

[dbltree]

Here's a pic of switchgrass planted as a riparian buffer with tyical corn/soybean rotation crop field beside it.

It's been there for some time and has never spread. Tillage, Roundup and corn herbicides pretty much assure it's not going to far

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchgrassRiparianBuffer.jpg

Sometimes in my "searches" for backup information on the benefits of dormant/frost seeding switchgrass...I run across "myself"


I don't remember how old this article is:

‘TIS THE SEASON FOR DORMANT SEEDING (http://www.prairiesource.com/newsletters/001202.htm)

More good links:

Planting and managing switchgrass (http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/forage/418-013/418-013.pdf)

This article also covers dormant seeding of switchgrass:

Switchgrass in Sothern Iowa (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM1773.pdf)

Covers ragdoll and wetchill:

Wetchill process (http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/forage/418-013/418-013.html)

Cover more on dormant seed and general advice:

Dormant seed (http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/PDF/switchgrass.pdf)

If your site has been prepared by killing off the sod last fall via roundup...or was in RR soybeans, you can plant switcgrass seed anytime now.

5-8# per acre broadcast or drilled when the soil is frozen in early morning.

John Osenbaugh’s Prairie Seed Farms (http://www.prairieseedfarms.com/) is my first choice for switchgrass and other NWSG seed in Iowa!

Remember Atrazine is the preffered herbicde for controlling weed competition in switchgrass.

Spray in early spring at 2-4 quarts per acre (more is better...)

Atrazine is a Restricted Use Pesticide requiring you to either hire it sprayed on or purchasing thru someone who has a Pesticide Applicators license.

Herbicides (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=176924&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1)


Many articles list Shelter switchgrass as better for wildlife but in Iowa Cave In Rock switchgrass will be the longest lived and provide the tallest and thickest cover for deer /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[ajadams]

Dbltree, I was talking to a guy at the classic (Tecomate boothe) about switchgrass planting and costs. He was saying that a good one was Decotah. It is an older one and is far cheaper than alot of the newer ones. He said it would do just fine around here. I've been trying to find a place that sells it but am not having any luck. I also asked him about frost seeding it. He flat out said that it would'nt work because it is a warm season grass. I know you and other people have good luck frost seeding switch so I don't know why he would think that. He was also a researcher for some university in south dakota and not a tecomate rep. I kind of wonder if he just never tried frost seeding it. Any info on the docotah switch? I looked through this thread and didn't see anything, thanks Aj

[dbltree]

Dbltree, I was talking to a guy at the classic (Tecomate boothe) about switchgrass planting and costs. He was saying that a good one was Decotah. It is an older one and is far cheaper than alot of the newer ones. He said it would do just fine around here. I've been trying to find a place that sells it but am not having any luck. I also asked him about frost seeding it. He flat out said that it would'nt work because it is a warm season grass. I know you and other people have good luck frost seeding switch so I don't know why he would think that. He was also a researcher for some university in south dakota and not a tecomate rep. I kind of wonder if he just never tried frost seeding it. Any info on the docotah switch? I looked through this thread and didn't see anything, thanks Aj





I just love "the experts" that have no idea what they are talking about!


First...anyone who says frost seeding switchgrass or any NWSG mixes...won't work is flat out not qualified to be giving out any information on the subject!

Most all of you have seen my pics and ALL of it was frost seeded!!

I have posted reams of info including studies by ISU and others that frost seeding not only works...in most cases it works best!

As for Dacotah' Switchgrass...it is not an ecotype for our area of Iowa. Check back thru this thread and you can see why Cave In Rock switchgrass is expensive...it's the best and most adpated eco-type for this area.

My property is living proof as I have tryed several other varieties.

No one has to believe me...but I have nothing to gain from giving any of you bad or mis-information and what I tell you is from my own hands on experience spanning more then a decade.



It is an older one and is far cheaper than alot of the newer ones.



Huh?? Newer ones?? CIR switchgrass is an eco-type that has been around for eons

10 years ago I tried "saving a buck" by planting part of my ground to other types of switchgrass...and ended up re-seeding it to CIR several years later.

It's your dollar...but cheaper isn't always better......
Note the map of the range of Dacotah switchgrass...S.D., N.D. and MN...

Dacotah' Switchgrass (http://plant-materials.nrcs.usda.gov/pubs/ndpmcbrpavi2.pdf)

While we're on the subject...here's some of my CIR switchgrass yesterday.

Still standing after all the ice, snow and wind.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchgrassinMarch.jpg

[PYBucks]

ajadams, contact your local IDNR private land biologists. They had 50% cost share vouchers for switchgrass seed. I bought my seed a couple weeks ago using the voucher.

Switchgrass prices have really gone up since last fall but the voucher will help if you can still get one.

Call Roger at Custom Seed (712-784-2430) western IA, I got my CIR seed for $9.25 a pound from him.

Tim

[TimberPig]

Switchgrass prices have really gone up since last fall but the voucher will help if you can still get one.

Call Roger at Custom Seed (712-784-2430) western IA, I got my CIR seed for $9.25 a pound from him.

Tim





Yikes! Those prices have really gone up, I think CIR seed was around $5/lb from Osenbaugh's last year.

[passinthru]

I was at Osenbaughs yesterday and CIR was $11.95 a pound.

Got my seeding done this morning, and had a blast. Hopefully I'll have a hillside full of grass to take a picture of in couple years. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

John recommended spraying a full rate of atrazine and a half rate of dual around April 1 then Roundup May5 to May 10th. He said you might ding 10 percent of the switch with the roundup but not much more than that will have germinated by then.

John also recommended spraying Roundup Oct. 1 of the second fall for the swithgrass. He said that would help reduce competition also.

Anyone used these recommendations before.

Also tromped around for a few hours looking for sheds. Cows must of eaten them all, no luck.

[locust]

is it too late to "frost seed" a CP25 mix on bare ground considering the temps? I had my one day in the field this year last week and finished clover frost seeding and it seemed to be a good day for that, but I ran out of time. I have some CP25 mix left over and I have small areas I want to put in those areas, but am wondering with the temps if it is worth it...I don't have a drill or anything so it seems now or never. I also frost seeded CP25 a week or so back in an area with a fairly steep slope and favorable freeze thaw days following since it was a south facing slope. In order to avoid run off(both seed and soil) do you think covering the frost seeded area with straw would help with runoff and not affect the grasses from growing? or would some other covering be recommended?

[dbltree]

is it too late to "frost seed" a CP25 mix on bare ground considering the temps?



I have seeded NWSG mix all the way into April with good results, by just broadcasting it on killed sod.

We will have plenty of cold wet weather (like today) which will be enough to let the seed make soil contact and stratify it.

I kinda doubt that we have seen the last of freezing nights yet...so I would get it seeded asap!

[dbltree]

I know I sound like a "broken record" in this thread with the dormancy issues of switchgrass seed and the reasons for frost seeding...but...

I still get emails from folks who are being told that it's to early to seed switchgrass...because the seed will "rot".... huh??

Often times people just need some reassurance from people (not just me) that understand dealing with dormant seeds like switchgrass and wildlflowers.

Here are some more links mostly because I don't want anyone to just take my word for it...even though all my switchgrass has been seeded somewhere between November and March....and the pictures don't lie

If your unable to frost seed, switchgrass can be stratified by the following ( taken from this link (http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/forage/418-013/418-013.html) )




Wet-chill to break dormancy:
If germination is low (less than 40 percent), seed should be wet-chilled to break the dormancy. In nature this wet-chill, called stratification, occurs naturally during the winter. If the wet-chill treatment is required, follow the procedure outlined below:
Put the seed in a cold place to be chilled before soaking.

Soak the seed in cold water for about 24 hours in plastic-mesh feed sacks.

Then remove the sacks from water and hang them in a cool place for about 24 hours to drip dry.

After draining, place the sacks in plastic garbage bags to prevent excessive drying during the chill period. Measure the temperature inside the wet seed to be sure of safe conditions. Place the outdoor sensor of an indoor/outdoor thermometer inside the bags. These units are inexpensive and can be used later for other purposes. Remove the sacks from the garbage bags during the last week of chilling to aid in the drying process. Place the sacks in a refrigerator and chill at 38-42 degrees F. for 4 weeks. Freezing the seed doesn't harm it, but it does prevent the seed from breaking dormancy. You can take seed samples at 7-day intervals during the chilling process and test them to see whether germination percentage has increased. Usually, it takes 28 days to break dormancy.

Remove seed from the refrigerator and dry it by placing it on a dry tarp less than 3 inches deep with a fan blowing over it. Dry the seed until it flows freely. Plant the chill-treated seed as soon as possible. If planting must be delayed, chill-treated seed will be safe if stored in a dry place.








a ragdoll test of germination will tell you if your seed needs to be stratified.

Sometimes you can get lucky.



"Ragdoll" test for seed germination:
Before planting, test your seed in a flower pot with soil or in a "ragdoll." A "ragdoll" is a tube of wet paper containing the seeds to be tested for germination; it is placed in a jar or plastic bag and kept in a warm place for several days. Then it is opened and the seedlings are counted as they are removed, giving you the percentage germination.
Properly used, the ragdoll test is of great value, but some suggestions will help you obtain the best results:

Use a firm paper towel such as a brown hand towel or its equivalent. The "soft," very absorbent paper toweling often used in a kitchen makes poor ragdolls. It allows roots and tops to penetrate the fiber, making seedlings difficult to remove for counting. If kitchen towels must be used, be sure to squeeze all excess water from them to prevent seed rotting. Too much water causes a lack of oxygen and the roots of seedlings (radical) will be more retarded than the top.

After the towel has been squeezed rather hard, lay the wet towel flat. Count out 100 seeds and place them on one half of the towel. Fold the towel in half and roll it into a tube. Place the tube upright in a jar or plastic bag. This position causes roots to grow down and shoots to grow up so that seedlings are more easily removed during counting. The ragdoll should be kept in a warm place, preferably on top of a water heater or refrigerator. A temperature of 80 to 85öF is best but seeds will do fine at room temperature.

Make the first count in about 4 days. Open the towel and count the seedlings as you remove them. After another 3 to 4 days, make a second count. If you had 100 seeds, the number of seedlings removed equals the percentage germination. If seeds were not counted initially, count the remaining seeds and calculate percentage germination. You should always save a small amount of any seed you plant (1/4 cup is plenty) so that, if the stand is poor, you can check germination again to be sure the problem was not bad seed. If the seed won't germinate in an ideal environment like a "ragdoll," then don't expect much success when the seed is dealing with all the hazards found in a field situation.
It is always a good idea to test the ragdoll procedure by placing a few seeds of millet or alfalfa, etc., that you know will germinate in it. If these seeds germinate well, then you know the ragdoll is working properly. If these seedlings are stunted, then the ragdoll may be too wet.





Temp to stratify (http://www.soils1.cses.vt.edu/DJP/4344hp/4344handout/unit3/cold7.pdf)

Stratification in Switchgrass Seeds (http://crop.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/41/5/1546)

STUDIES ON THE PLASTICITY OF DORMANCY AND ON AGING IN SWITCHGRASS SEEDS (http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-8297-134015/)

switchgrass profile (http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switchgrass-profile.html)

Seeding recomendations (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM1773.pdf)

Switchgrass info (http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/PDF/switchgrass.pdf)

After reading all that...you can see why I prefer to seed it as nature intended

[dbltree]

I have only a few odd areas left to seed to praire grass so I work on these an acre at a time.

I ordered 5#'s of Cave In Rock switchgrass seed from John Osenbaugh’s Prairie Seed Farms (http://prairieseedfarms.com/) a while back.

It's gone up to $11.90 a pound!

One thing that is extremely important with switchgrass (and other NWSG) is to buy seed locally so that it is the same ecotype.

Other seed will germinate and appear to do fine but over time it will often begin to thin and die out.

Buying "cheap" seed is not a bargain in the long run and often leads to very dissapointing results.

John Osenbaugh has been growing NWSG for a lifetime near Lucas Iowa so you can be assured that the seed you plant...will be right for you if your property is in Iowa.

He does have seeds and mixes adapted for other states so give John a call and talk to him in person if possible, before ordering seed.

Here's what 5#'s looks like and what I use to seed it by hand.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/5lbsswitchgrass.jpg

Seed is small and easily sown like clover seed.

Set the seeder on 1 or 2 and walk at a fast pace

Like frost seeding clover, start with the loweset setting and seed across the field one way and then turn and seed the field crossways of your previous path.

Better to have seed left over then to run out before your done...you can always go back over it. Besides...you need the exercise!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrassseed1.jpg

About 4-5# per acre seeded in Feb or March on killed sod works best.

In this case I killed the sod with roundup and used Plateau last year to provide some residual action.

Plateau can severely set back or kill switchgrass but at low levels it has worked for me to release established switchgrass or sprayed the previous year, for establishing following year seedings.

This is what the field looks like now:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Plateautreated.jpg

The nice thing about late winter seeding (if you have prepared the site by killing the sod the fall before) is that you can do it with virtually no equiment other then a cheap hand seeder like the one shown.

If you have larger acreages you can use an ATV mounted spreader (be careful to close down the seeder...or it will end up in a pile on the ground)

or you can rent a Truax no-till drill from a local county conservation board for a few bucks an acre...providing you either have or can borrow a small tractor.

Soil type is one question brought up recently...

Swithgrass prefers rich moist soil however it will grow on poorer soils escpecially if soil tests are done and fertility levels brought up.

In some cases however other natives such as Big and Little Bluestem will do better.

Little Bluestem will grow on the poorest soils such as dry clay knobs on steep hills.

It has good standabilty and is only slightly shorter then switchgrass.

I have mixed stands of switch and Little Bluestem and both are excellent cover still standing after our ice and snow storms

Switchgrass alone is much easier and less expensive to establish using herbicdes because Atrazine can be used.

Use 4 quarts per acre on either new seedings or established stands where weeds/grasses are making it difficult for the stand of switch to compete.

Burning in very late April to late May will set back cool season competition and an application of Atrazine after burning will allow the switchgrass to become stronger and able to dominate in the future.

Once well established timing the switchgrass burns for very late spring will severely set back cool season competition and keep your switchgrass robust for decades.

Burning a different portion each year is best so that some nesting areas will be left undisturbed.

Not burning is a good way to eventually lose your stand of switchgrass...

[dbltree]

Here's a couple shots of switchgrass in early April. I took the pics up close to show that there is nothing green at this point:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchgrassinApril.jpg

This is a shot of some very small goldenrod sprouting up which can be very competitive with prairie grasses:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Goldenrodinswitchgrass.jpg

This is some NWSG mix:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSGinApril.jpg


You have the option of hitting it with roundup or waiting until late April and burning to set back the cool season competition.

A mature stand of natives has plenty of fuel but a new stand may have barely enough and may just burn around the green stuff.

In those cases I prefer to use roundup very early, or Plateau for NWSG mixes.

It's hard to beat fire though...if timed right it will set the cool seasons back long enough to allow the natives to come on strong :)

[TimberPig]

Hey, those last two look familiar. :)

Here's a little different question for you. Since I have that stuff coming up right now I'm wondering what effect this unusual cold snap will have on it? Last night's low as around 18*, and then next 3 nights lows are between 22* and 16*. Seems that would qualify as a hard frost, would temps that low kill off the unwanted weeds which have already sprouted, and also knock back that grass similar to what a burn would do? If so that would be a nice little gift from Ma Nature.

I'll find out in a week or so when it warms up, so I'm going to know if you get the answer right! ;)

[dbltree]

Why do we need to burn switchgrass and other natives periodiclly?



In a nutshell, if we do not burn switchgrass every 3-5 years it will eventually suffucate itself and begin to dissappear altogether.

Thick thatch builds up on the soil surface and by burning we turn that thatch to ash whereupon it becomes available nutrients to the switchgrass plants.

Burning helps set back coolseason grasses and woody brush that invades the prairiegrass stands and the new switchgrass growth will flourish and the stand will prosper.

This link has great information and pics of a prairie burn: Mesic Prairie Restoration - Burning (http://www.wmich.edu/asylumlake/Prairie%20Burn/Prairie%20Burn%20Frameset.htm)

If you've ever witnessed a prairie grass fire or worse yet went thru the harrowing expierance of having a raging switchgrass fire get away from you...and roar across a field like a runaway freight train...you know that planning is extremely important to prepare for burning your prairie.

I started out thinking that a "green" strip like this would be enough act as a fire break:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Grassfirebreak.jpg

I soon found out i couldn't be more wrong

The thatch in typical "grass" strips is just enough to let fire creep across...kinda like letting a little trickle of gasoline run towards a flame.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Thatch.jpg

In my case I do not want clover around the outside of my fields...it would only attract deer to within feet of roads and give them travel lanes far from my stands.

So I prefer to till and plant oats for a "thatch free" fire break.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tillingfirebreak2.jpg

The oats help prevent erosion on my steep hillsides and some early spring feed at a time when deer are not vulnerable to "road poachers".

I have seen several huge switchgrass fields kept completely and safely under control during burns by discing all the way around the fields.

Leave nothing to chance! Plan on having plenty of help, backpack sprayers and if possible a tractor with plow, tiller or disc.

Remember to burn against the wind after checking weather reports.

If you would like to watch a prairie fire...partly because it's an awesome sight and to learn more about safe burning...the Mahaska County Conservation Board Nature Center located at the Russell Wildlife area 5 miles north of Oskaloosa on 200th St. off Hwy 63 will be conducting a burn on April 20th at 8:00 p.m.

Check before you go at (641)673-9327 as weather may postpone the burn.

I hope to burn mine later this month when it will have a greater affect at setting back coolseasons and invasive goldenrod.

[dbltree]

My nieghbors burned a 20 year old field of switchgrass the other day so I went down and took some pics.

They hired the local fire dept to do the burn and it went off without a hitch:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchgrassBurn.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchgrassBurn1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchgrassBurn2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchgrassBurn3.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchgrassBurn4.jpg

Kinda cool against the evening sun :)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchgrassBurn5.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchgrassBurn6.jpg

Plan on burning mine next week...weather permitting ;)

[dbltree]

Did you know...

that switchgrass and corn make a great combo when establishing switchgrass?

The both hate weeds, love nitrogen and are resistant to Atrazine!

If you frost seeded switchgrass this past winter, it's easy to no-till corn into your switch seeding at a moderate population.

Broadcast urea before a good rain and use up to 4 quarts of atrazine per acre and you can have food and cover while your switch is getting started.

Some would just like a screen along a roadway and adding corn the first year provides a quick first year screen.

Be careful not to use other herbicides that will kill grasses in corn...stick with atrazine and simazine (princep).

Couple closeups of my switchgrass on April 19th...no growth at all yet (for those that wonder what's coming up this time of year)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AprilSwitchgrass1.jpg

Not so much as a blade of green at any switch clump:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/MidAprilSwitchgrass.jpg

Cool seasons are growing rapidly at this point but it's way to early for warm season growth:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrasscloseup-1.jpg

Burn late as possible to promote growth of native grasses and set back cool seasons.

[dbltree]

I burned all of my prairie grass last week and it went off without a hitch!

I tilled a fire break all the way around...some of which I planted to oats and some I just left for now...but it worked perfectly to contain the fire.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Firebreak.jpg

We just used these small torches to start the fires. I sent my son to start against the wind while I started on the opposite side with the wind.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Firestarter.jpg

We had some pretty good gusts which carried it pretty well.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchfire1.jpg

The cool seasons had gotten pretty green in the thin spots and didn't burn well at first...but eventually things got "going"

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchfire2.jpg

Took a couple short videos that capture a little more of the sights and sounds of a switchgrass burn:

Swithgrass Burn 1 (http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/?action=view&current=be849806.flv)

It gets very hot so don't think you can get to close or put it out if it gets away. I had the tractor and tiller there if I needed to get a head of it and backpack sprayers for small fires but never needed either one.

The amount of wind is a huge factor...it would cause the fire to race and roar or barely creep...be wary of it at all times!

Switchgrass Burn 2 (http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/?action=view&current=f9761e3e.flv)

[locust]

I had natives planted in my fields last year. I haven't visited my place hardly at all this year but had a chance to drive by on Friday, and the smaller field that was planted in prairie last year was filled in with wall to wall thistles. they were 2 ft high already. I paniced and didn't know what to do so I pulled out the pull behind atv mower and mowed the whole field. Did I make the right choice? i hope to get back there and spot spray the thistles with rounduup..it will take forever but not sure if I have options. I never found a source for plateau. Last year the fields didn't look great to me, but I was told by a DNR rep that the first year in prairie is hard to rate. I saw thistle last year in that field and spot sprayed where I could, but they took over this spring. Did I do the right thing by mowing? or should I have let them grow and spray when I could? Any advise for this prairie/native newbie? I also was told by the DNR rep to not burn the first year and wait until 2008...so burn didn't take place this year. Any advise would be appreciated...I'm a but paniced with what I saw...I'd rather have the brome back than a field of thistle.

[dbltree]

Did I do the right thing by mowing?



First couple years that is best and yes...thistles can be a big problem at first.

Keep them clipped so they don't go to seed and later in the year clip high at 8-12".

Better to wait until after the prairie gets established to burn.

Slow process the first few years...been there, done that ;)

[dbltree]

After the burn you can really notice the clumpy nature of prairie grasses:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WSGclumps.jpg

Now you can really notice those "clumps" coming to life:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/prairieafterburn.jpg

Notice by burning late in the spring...the other cool seasons have not re-sprouted but the prairie has...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Prairieregrowth.jpg

The switchgrass begins to grow rapidly while the ground around it is bare. It's all about competition...set back the undesirables and give the WSG a chance to dominate.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchafterburn.jpg

This is a mixed NWSG patch and you can see how the trees and cedars in the far background where scorched by the hot flames. Burning is a great way to keep "things" from growing where they don't belong

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Prairie2weeksafterburn.jpg

In this pic you can see some spots on the left that did not burn well and how the cool seasons are way ahead.

if one burns early in the season then you have the opposite effect of encouraging the cool seasons long before the WSG is ready to start growing.

Burn very late April or in May to set back the undersirables and encourage the prairie grasses.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Afterburn.jpg

[Daver]

Great post Paul, excellent representation of a very important point related to switchgrass. I know it has really helped my understanding...now I just need some switchgrass seed next year...

[dbltree]

now I just need some switchgrass seed next year



It may change but right now Cave In Rock switchgrass seed will cost about $55 an acre...but that's a once in a lifetime expense.

The great thing about switchgrass is that with a little planning and forethought you can do it all yourself, with virtually no equipment other then a backpack or ATV sprayer and a small cheapo hand seeder.

There's nothing wrong with seeding an acre or two (or whatever one's budget will allow) each year.

Jut remember to mow in late summer, kill the sod in September, and kill it again if you missed any.

Frost seed in late winter...how easy is that? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[locust]

after doing some searching, apparently Dow has a relatively new product that is safe to spray in natives and is really tough on types of thistly so hopefully if I keep them cut, this will work in the fall. thought some of you may find this interesting and could need it, but hopefully you won't.

Milestone (http://www.dowagro.com/range/products/milestone.htm)

[dbltree]

after doing some searching, apparently Dow has a relatively new product that is safe to spray in natives and is really tough on types of thistly so hopefully if I keep them cut, this will work in the fall. thought some of you may find this interesting and could need it, but hopefully you won't.

Milestone (http://www.dowagro.com/range/products/milestone.htm)




Good info for thistle control...I like that it is not a restricted use pesticide

Thistles are almost sure to be a problem in new prairie seedings...I had some as high as the tractor cab the second year in my native grass

I just kept them clipped and eventually the natives took over and the thistles quit coming back ;)

[Limb Chicken]

Paul,
What do you suggest if they don't get smothered. It is our 8th year and still have a big thistle problem. Any help would be appreciated. Am looking forward to trying Milestone. Is that the only option?

[dbltree]

It is our 8th year and still have a big thistle problem.



Whoah! 8 years!!! Yikes!

I would sure try the Milestone because it specifically targets thistles and you don't have to beg someone to buy a Restricted Use herbicide.

Have you burned the switch at all and I'm curious if it is a thick or thin stand?

It sounds like it has a pretty good foot hold to have lasted 8 years.


Here's some links to general noxious weed control in CRP plantings.

Stinger and Curtail are mentioned in this link for thistle control:

CRP weed control (http://agcrops.osu.edu/weeds/documents/CRPweedcontrol.pdf)

Tordon is of course well known for Canada Thistle but that's where the "begging comes in" since it is a Restricted Use Pesticide.

Tordon and several other options are mentioned here:

Plan Now for Your Attack on CRP Weeds (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/news/newsreleases/2007/march-8-2007/plan-now-for-your-attack-on-crp-weeds/view)

The most widely used herbicides were 2,4-D and Tordon, but use of Curtail for Canada thistle control has increased.

Here are suggestions for controlling some weeds likely to be a problem in CRP:

Biennial thistles such as musk, plumeless or bull thistle: Apply 2,4-D at 1 to 1 1/2 quarts per acre when thistles are still in the rosette stage of growth. Treatment after the thistle has started to bolt is less effective. Cimarron or Cimarron Max recently has been labeled for use in CRP and provides excellent control of most biennial thistles.


Field bindweed and Canada thistle: Tordon at 1 to 2 quarts per acre provides the best long-term control, but may be cost prohibitive. Tordon at 1 to 2 pints per acre, plus 2,4-D at 1 quart per acre, is more economical, but only controls weeds for one season. Retreatment is required every year and it may take 3 to 4 years to reduce the size of established patches. Banvel at 1 to 2 quarts per acre control established plants for one year. 2,4-D is less expensive and effective than Tordon or Banvel and will suppress only top growth.

Since Milestone appears to be fairly new I can't comment on it's effectivness but it sure sounds like the ticket to me. :)

[Limb Chicken]

It has been burned twice and the problem areas are not in the thick stands of switch rather the "nesting seeding". They are driving me crazy and I am starting to feel like Carl Spackler is to gophers, Limb is to thistle... :)

[dbltree]

They are driving me crazy and I am starting to feel like Carl Spackler is to gophers, Limb is to thistle...





Got it! ;)

If you try the Milestone..let us know how it works on the gophers...errr thistles!

[Limb Chicken]

You got it Paul... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/3006/26cs_140.jpg

[nannyslayer]

Paul,
What do you suggest if they don't get smothered. It is our 8th year and still have a big thistle problem. Any help would be appreciated. Am looking forward to trying Milestone. Is that the only option?





It will smoke thistles. If they are real bad, run 7 oz to the acre instead of 5 oz.

[Limb Chicken]

Thanks Brian, I will give it a shot. It can't get any worse...

[dbltree]

Paul,
What do you suggest if they don't get smothered. It is our 8th year and still have a big thistle problem. Any help would be appreciated. Am looking forward to trying Milestone. Is that the only option?





It will smoke thistles. If they are real bad, run 7 oz to the acre instead of 5 oz.






I also noticed that Stinger (http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld02P014.pdf) and the generic version Spur herbicide (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld79P002.pdf) are approved for thistle control in CRP plantings...any thoughts on those Brian?

[Skully]

Hate to hi-jack but what if my thistles are wide spread and I just want to spot spray. Cost per acre would drop dramatically compared to spraying the whole property. What type of "spot spray" would work the best without leaving dead spots on the CRP like Round-up does?

[dbltree]

Hate to hi-jack but what if my thistles are wide spread and I just want to spot spray. Cost per acre would drop dramatically compared to spraying the whole property. What type of "spot spray" would work the best without leaving dead spots on the CRP like Round-up does?





I think both Milestone and Stinger/Spur can be spot sprayed and niether would leave "dead spots" like roundup would.


I think they both have info about spot spraying with a backpack sprayer (or ATV sprayer) as quite often thistles are spread out.

If you could find someone to split it with it would sure bring the costs down too.

[Skully]

Thanks Paul, now if it would quit raining long enough to spray something. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

[nannyslayer]

Paul, stinger works ok, not our choice for thistles. Tordon and 2 4 d will do better than stinger. I am really stuck on Milestone. I have seen this stuff work great many, many times.

For example, we sprayed a pasture this year that has never been sprayed. You want to talk about thistles, there were more of them than grass. Within 5 days, all the thistles were brown, and now you can't find one out there to save your life.

I don't know about your local coop, but we sell Milestone by the quart for backpack and atv sprayers. If anyone needs a quart, I can see if I can get them one, but they have to be in reasonable distance of me. Right now I am all over the southern and southwest part of the state.

[dbltree]

Paul, stinger works ok, not our choice for thistles. Tordon and 2 4 d will do better than stinger. I am really stuck on Milestone. I have seen this stuff work great many, many times.

For example, we sprayed a pasture this year that has never been sprayed. You want to talk about thistles, there were more of them than grass. Within 5 days, all the thistles were brown, and now you can't find one out there to save your life.

I don't know about your local coop, but we sell Milestone by the quart for backpack and atv sprayers. If anyone needs a quart, I can see if I can get them one, but they have to be in reasonable distance of me. Right now I am all over the southern and southwest part of the state.





That kind of information is hard to come by Brian...we certainly appreciate your input on herbicides.

Without some real expertise...it's just trial and error.

That's great that it is available in small quanities, although it sounds like Limb may need a 55 gallon barrel! :)

[Limb Chicken]

I got pictures yesterday I will share shortly... I can't wait to try the Milestone you got me all jacked up Brian... :)

[ibohunt65]

This might help. Here are some comparison results of different herbicide treatments on canada thistle. Looks like milestone is the winner. I just sprayed with grazon this spring. Hopefully it will help.

www.nwroc.umn.edu/Cropping_issues/NW_Crop_trials/2006/thistle_control_crp_crookston.pdf (http://www.nwroc.umn.edu/Cropping_issues/NW_Crop_trials/2006/thistle_control_crp_crookston.pdf)

[locust]

I am obviously data sheet impaired, can you guys help as to how many oz per gallon I should use milestone to be used in a spot spray mode? I see 5-7 oz per acre, but I'm not sure what that translate to for my small spot sprayer...any help would be appreciated.

[dbltree]

I am obviously data sheet impaired, can you guys help as to how many oz per gallon I should use milestone to be used in a spot spray mode? I see 5-7 oz per acre, but I'm not sure what that translate to for my small spot sprayer...any help would be appreciated.



Try this link for help in that area:

Calibrating Backpack Sprayers (http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalog/html/pnw/pnw320/)

[nannyslayer]

I am obviously data sheet impaired, can you guys help as to how many oz per gallon I should use milestone to be used in a spot spray mode? I see 5-7 oz per acre, but I'm not sure what that translate to for my small spot sprayer...any help would be appreciated.



For spot spraying, you want 7 oz of milestone to 15 gallon of water. Just do the math for bigger or smaller sprayers. Basically .5 oz of mileston to every gallon of water.

[ajadams]

dbltree, I have some places I want to put some switch but they are on hel. They are brome now. I'm going to mow and kill that late this summer then I was thinking about drilling in rye and switch in aug, sept. The rye will hold the soil and weeds down in the spring, but do you think it would drowned out the switch?

[dbltree]

dbltree, I have some places I want to put some switch but they are on hel. They are brome now. I'm going to mow and kill that late this summer then I was thinking about drilling in rye and switch in aug, sept. The rye will hold the soil and weeds down in the spring, but do you think it would drowned out the switch?



That time of year won't work for seeding switchgrass. It's best frost seeded in late winter or very very early spring.

Kill the sod in late summer and no-till the swithgrass in late winter (or broadcast it on frozen ground) and the killed sod will hold the soil. No need to till it and cause erosion.

Switchgrass seedlings cannot tolerate competition and rye is way to much competition.

I prefer atrazine to keep competition to a minimum just as one would for corn.

[dbltree]

Burning the switchgrass in early May...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchfire1.jpg

leads to a nice thick stand by August...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000211.jpg

No thistles here Limb... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000210.jpg

This mowed path gives one an idea of the hieght and thickness..

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000212.jpg

Deer and other wildlife really love to bed in this stuff in hot weather even...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000213.jpg

Anybody else have after burn pics or results of spraying/thistle control?

[locust]

I had big problems with canada thistle when I visited my place in the spring. I haven't been able to visit my place much this summer, but after a paniced mowing after seeing them taking over, and then later manually cutting(riding an ATV through them while yielding a machette is quite a good stress reliever) I turned to Tordon 22K. That killed the thistles(I manually sprayed them with a 2 gallon pump sprayer) but it also looked like a bomb went off around my test sprays. I then turned to Milestone and sprayed with my ATV. I have two sections of CP25 planted, one small plot that had the massive infestation, and a larger section. The small section looks much better than the larger section now since spraying with the milestone. Not many weeds and the grasses are taller. My larger section didn't have the amount of infestation, and it looks worse with regards to weeds. So, I kind of wish I would have spot sprayed more in my large area. The other thing I learned was in my front section a neighbor mistakenly mowed a 30 ft section about 100 ft long right to the ground about 5 weeks ago. I went back this weekend and that area look incredibly good with regards to weeds and the grasses came back thick. So, I guess in my second year my lesson learned would be to spot spray more and I wish I could have afforded to pay for a mowing because is seemed to pay benefits. these are two quick pics I took Sunday on my first visit in 5 weeks or so..not the best quality, but it shows pics of my small area doing great...Milestone has been great for me.
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/535/medium/13852007_06260089.JPG



http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/13852007_06260090.JPG

[Daver]

manually cutting(riding an ATV through them while yielding a machette is quite a good stress reliever)



Love it, nice image! I am glad to read that I am not the only one improvising on this food plot stuff. :)

[dbltree]

I turned to Tordon 22K. That killed the thistles(I manually sprayed them with a 2 gallon pump sprayer) but it also looked like a bomb went off around my test sprays.



So the Tordon killed the grasses too?

Good information comparing Tordon, Milestone and timely mowing

Now you need to see what late spring burning will do...

[locust]

yes, I was trying to be very careful to only spray the thistle, but when they were so thick, my concentration turned to "get it done" in several circumstances and I'm sure I oversprayed in many spots. Admittedly, I did use a high concentration of the tordon 22k, so maybe at lower levels, it would work better, but I still love the milestone. I didn't have many chances to get down to my place, so when I mixed it I mixed it knowing I'd get a kill and may have overdone it. I agree, can't wait for a spring burn, I hope I can pull one together next year. I'm officially addicted. http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/31045-cheers2.gif

[nannyslayer]

Just out of curiosity, what did you have in your sprayer before the tordon? I just can't believe that the tordon killed grass, unless you had an extreme rate in it.

[Fishbonker]

I've had 22K burn grasses pretty bad around thistles at 1 ounce to the gallon, but it killed the thistle dead. The grases looked pretty bad for a while but they came back.

Of course you havta remember, thistles are public enemy #1 around here with MFR being #2 and cockelburs a very close #3, so when I spray a thistle, I REALLY spray a thistle. Oh yeah, horse nettels get dishonorable mention.

The 'Bonker

[Tibbs]

Hello,
First I would like to introduce myself. I am a new member as of 5 minutes ago. I live in Michigan. Sorry for just jumping in but after seeing how long this thread was I decided to jump to the end and ask a question about switch grass. Its obviuse that people from Iwoa know more about SG than Michiganders. This spring I planted 8 acres of switch grass. I planted at about 8 # per acre and used atrazene. As of today - 3 months later most of the grass is over 40 inches tall and seeded out with no weeds. _its unbeleivably thick and I know it will only get thicker next year. Is is possible that a stand of cave in rock grass can be too thick for the deer to use? I have heard both good and bad things about a thick stand, Anyone who has experience about this topic and would be willing to share any thoughts I would greatly appreciate it.
Thank you,

[JNRBRONC]

Welcome Tibbs!

I don't think SG can be too thick. Being thick, it will supress weeds better, so you will have less management issues. A thick stand will make the deer stick to trails instead of wandering aimlessly around the field. You can always mow trails to "guide" the deer through the SG. http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif

[dbltree]

This spring I planted 8 acres of switch grass. I planted at about 8 # per acre and used atrazene. As of today - 3 months later most of the grass is over 40 inches tall and seeded out with no weeds. _its unbeleivably thick and I know it will only get thicker next year. Is is possible that a stand of cave in rock grass can be too thick for the deer to use?



Welcome and thanks for adding to this thread...it's how we all learn from each other

Sounds like you did all the right things and you have a great stand going!

Perhaps you can add some pictures eventually.

As Bronc mentioned...no such thing as "too thick for deer"...for nesting birds...yes...they like a little more open "clumpy" habitat that you get with a NWSG mix.

For bedding and winter cover though, a thick stand of switchgrass is the ticket for both deer and birds ;)

[jflournoy]

I just read through this entire thread - GOOD STUFF! I'm not in Iowa, I'm in southeast Ohio, but I've been a lurker at this forum for a few years now. I believe this is my first time posting.

Last year I purchased a 22 acre property that is about half/half woods and meadow. In the first year I have already started some pretty major improvements on the meadow section of the property. I've planted 30 apple trees of about 8 different varieties, primarily disease-resistant ones. I planted about half a dozen hybrid (fast-producing) oaks, and roughly 3-4 acres of food plots consisting of the following plants, although not all mixed together, of course: 2 kinds of red clover, 2 kinds of white clover, 2 kinds of alfalfa, peredovik sunflowers, soybeans, 2 kinds of forage chicory, winter wheat, winter rye, oats, durana clover, alsike clover, bonar forage rape, dwarf essex rape, purple top turnips, tyfon forage rape. My deer have plenty to eat! That is not the issue. The issue is that there is not much bedding cover on my land, and therefore the deer that I feed all year are at greater risk of being killed on neighboring properties as they travel back and forth from bed to food. There are a lot of deer that travel "through" my place, but very few that use it as a primary bedding area year round.

There are a fair number of 3.5 year old bucks around, and a handful of 4.5 year olds that I've gotten pictures of, and I'd like to give them all a better chance to get an extra year or two on them, especially the 3.5 year olds. As it is now, several of the neighboring properties get hunted pretty hard during shotgun season, when everyone is putting on drives. Two of the good bucks I've been feeding all year with my food plots have already been killed this season within a mile of my place. The only gun hunting that takes place on my property is maybe once or twice during the season, I take my 10-year old daughter out to try for a deer. Otherwise, I don't see any reason that several acres of mature switchgrass stand couldn't serve as a good "sanctuary" for deer during the gun season, not to mention all year round.

I've got trail camera photos of at least 2 dozen bucks on my place, but I think no more than half a dozen of them bed here (max, and only one of them is a "mature" buck), and those are all on one small, thick hillside that is regeneration from a timber-thinning operation before I bought the land (10+ years ago). There are a few things I can do to improve the bedding habitat in the woods, but in my opinion there is a LOT that I can do to improve the bedding habitat in the fields, and that is why I am very excited about switchgrass after reading through this thread.

First question is, should Cave-In-Rock do well in southeast Ohio? We get good moisture and are moderately rolling, not much "prairie" overall, but there is some in the valley where I'm at, and specifically on my property. My property is bordered by probably 400-500 acres of almost solid woods which is a mixture of different woods-type habitats, and there are a lot of deer.

Second question is, how OFTEN does mature switchgrass stand need to be burned? Maybe that was addressed in this thread somewhere else, but I didn't see it.

Third question: What about "Miscanthus" as a thick grassy-vegetation for creating bedding areas and security cover? I came across it while I was looking on Google Images for more pictures of Cave-In-Rock switchgrass. There were several web sites that had some comparisons of Miscanthus versus switchgrass for purposes of growing for biomass "fuel". The comparisons there showed Miscanthus greatly superior in regards to the amount of biomass it produced as compared to switchgrass. I don't have a clue how that relates to it's suitability with regards to wildlife habitat, though, so I would be very interested to hear any comments some here have or experience with regards to Miscanthus.

Last thing, and this is just a comment....We don't have any wild quail or wild pheasants in this area, so my primary target for planting switchgrass is to make deer habitat.

I look forward to your comments.

Joshua

p.s. I'm posting a few pictures below so you can see a bit of what the property looks like.

http://www.huntinfo.com/deerlease/foodplot/aerial.jpg

http://www.huntinfo.com/deerlease/foodplot/after1.jpg

http://www.huntinfo.com/deerlease/foodplot/after2.jpg

http://www.huntinfo.com/deerlease/foodplot/after3.jpg

http://www.huntinfo.com/deerlease/foodplot/after5.jpg

http://www.huntinfo.com/deerlease/foodplot/2007/postplanting/september/alfalfa1.jpg

http://www.huntinfo.com/deerlease/foodplot/2007/postplanting/september/chicory3.jpg

http://www.huntinfo.com/deerlease/foodplot/2007/postplanting/september/chicory5.jpg

http://www.huntinfo.com/deerlease/foodplot/2007/postplanting/september/rape1.jpg

http://www.huntinfo.com/deerlease/foodplot/2007/postplanting/september/sunflower5.jpg

http://www.huntinfo.com/deerlease/07kills/07ohiobuck/10.jpg

[nannyslayer]

Jf, you an awesome start to a whitetail sancuary. I see no reason why the switch would not work in your area. What kind of soils do you have, would be my first question. You stated before that you get plenty of moisture, so there is a key element. Dbltree can probably answer more of your questions better than I can, regaurding switch grass.

As for burning, every 3 years seems to work down here is southern IA.

Nice looking property, and good looking buck.

[dbltree]

Beautiful property Joshua...welcome to IW!

Most of the open areas across the US at one time had some species of prairiegrass, although CIR is more native to this area. There are other varieties that may do better in your area and it might pay to contact your NRCS office to see if they can tell you anything.

Cave In Rock is mentioned in this switchgrass planting info from Virginia (http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/forage/418-013/418-013.pdf) which is even further east of you.

As mentioned burn every 3-5 years and prepare for it when planning and planting your switchgrass fields. It's critical in maintaining any prairiegrass stand long term.

You'll never regret establishing a good stand of switchgrass for deer bedding cover!

[dbltree]

Maybe you should write a book



I'm thinking maybe I already have! :)

I know the switchgrass thread has become long and confusing...I need to repost some type of "instruction manual" perhaps?

The best way to deal with switchgrass plantings is to plan ahead and start in the fall by mowing in late August, killing the sod in Septemeber with RUP and then broadcasting or drilling the seed onto frozen ground in late Feb. or early March.

Switchgrass seed is dormant and needs to be stratified by wet chill of cold wet weather in typical of late winter. If you drill it like normal "crops" in April/May it most likely will not germinate until the following spring.

If you decide you still want to pursue spring planting in 08 then you can burn as early as possible, spray the new growth ASAP and drill the seed into the sod within days of spraying.

Hopefully you can rent a no-till drill from your local NRCS or Pheasants Forever chapter but I have used a Truax drill with conventional coulters and it worked just fine on killed sod. DONOT till the ground!!!

You really only need to scratch the surface so that the seed makes soil contact...it really doesn't need to be covered like typical grain crops.

Just be aware that there is a 80-90% chance that your switchgrass seed will not germinate until early summer of 09 by planting this spring after warm up. You will have plenty of weeds and grasses that you may think is switchgrass and no doubt a few straggler plants will come up...but it will take 3 years before you see what you hoping for.

If you buy stratfied seed then it will have a higher germination rate but switchgrass seed is already $14-16.00 a # so adding additional costs can make it very very expensive right now.

As for erosion...I have very very HEL that can end up with a gully 3 feet deep over night...but if I don't till it...just kill the sod and drill into it...it has never ever eroded. Even the gullies themselves didn't was when I seeded them using this method, never eroded. The roots from the killed sod will remain and hold the soil in all but the steepest ground until new sod forms.

Just a side note...I noticed our switchgrass thread has been read "around the world"
The link doesn't work but the this thread was mentioned in this thread (http://www.huntingpa.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=445260&fpart=3) Some neat pictures as well...switchgrass is great cover for deer from Virginia to Kansas and all points in between!:)

[dbltree]

Would it be wise to purchase the seed now with all this bio-fuel talk?





I really don't see it getting any cheaper but that's the $64 ?? of course. You might check around but I'm thinking it's going no where but up...

[SDWC]

GREAT STUFF. FIRST TIME POSTING. I WAS LOOKING FOR SOME INFORMATION ON SWITCHGRASS AND LOOKS LIKE I HAVE WON THE LOTTERY. MY HUNTING GROUND IS IN SOUTHEAST IL. I BULLDOZED ONE ACRE OF TIMBER, REMOVING ALL STUMPS EVERYTHING, RIGHT DOWN TO BARE DIRT LAST FEB. I THEN BROADCAST SEVEN LBS OF CAVE IN THE ROCK SWITHGRASS. AS A COMPLETE ROOKIE I DIDN'T DO ANYTING ELSE. NO WEED CONTROL OF ANY KIND(STUPID). AS OF THIS PAST OCT. THE WEEDS ARE 3' TALL. ON A 1/4 OF THE PLOT THERE IS A GRASS THAT LOOKS LIKE SWITCHGRASS ABOUT 30" TALL. IS THAT POSSIBLE? SINCE I HAVE NEVER SEEN SWITCHGRASS UP CLOSE I CANT TELL. MY BIGGEST CONCERN IS THAT BY LETTING THE WEEDS GET THAT FAR OUT OF CONTROL IN THE FIRST YEAR OF PLANTING WILL THE SWITCHGRASS SURVIVE. THIS SPRING I AM GOING TO SPRAY 2QTS ATRAZINE AROUND 1ST WEEK IN APRIL AND 1PT 24D WHEN THINGS START TO GREEN UP. THIS PLOT IS GOING TO BE A BEDDING GROUND FOR DEER. ANY AND ALL HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

THANK YOU!

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: SDBC
GREAT STUFF. FIRST TIME POSTING. I WAS LOOKING FOR SOME INFORMATION ON SWITCHGRASS AND LOOKS LIKE I HAVE WON THE LOTTERY. MY HUNTING GROUND IS IN SOUTHEAST IL. I BULLDOZED ONE ACRE OF TIMBER, REMOVING ALL STUMPS EVERYTHING, RIGHT DOWN TO BARE DIRT LAST FEB. I THEN BROADCAST SEVEN LBS OF CAVE IN THE ROCK SWITHGRASS. AS A COMPLETE ROOKIE I DIDN'T DO ANYTING ELSE. NO WEED CONTROL OF ANY KIND(STUPID). AS OF THIS PAST OCT. THE WEEDS ARE 3' TALL. ON A 1/4 OF THE PLOT THERE IS A GRASS THAT LOOKS LIKE SWITCHGRASS ABOUT 30" TALL. IS THAT POSSIBLE? SINCE I HAVE NEVER SEEN SWITCHGRASS UP CLOSE I CANT TELL. MY BIGGEST CONCERN IS THAT BY LETTING THE WEEDS GET THAT FAR OUT OF CONTROL IN THE FIRST YEAR OF PLANTING WILL THE SWITCHGRASS SURVIVE. THIS SPRING I AM GOING TO SPRAY 2QTS ATRAZINE AROUND 1ST WEEK IN APRIL AND 1PT 24D WHEN THINGS START TO GREEN UP. THIS PLOT IS GOING TO BE A BEDDING GROUND FOR DEER. ANY AND ALL HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

THANK YOU!






Welcome to IW :)


It's very possible you have some switchgrass there and it may thicken if you control the weeds/grass.

If nothing else clipping it 8-10" high will help the first and second year. There should be plenty of close up pics in this thread that show the seed head of switchgrass, otherwise it's sometimes hard for the novice to tell switchgrass from other grasses.

[Greshamgoose]

I live in Michigan and would like to plant switchgrass. From what I have been reading here Feb. or Mar. would be a good time to plant? Can I just broadcast the seed on to a harvested soybean field? Then spray it with atrazne?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: greshamgoose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I live in Michigan and would like to plant switchgrass. From what I have been reading here Feb. or Mar. would be a good time to plant? Can I just broadcast the seed on to a harvested soybean field? Then spray it with atrazne? </div></div>

You bet!! In fact your situation is perhaps one of the very best to frost seed switchgrass into. The bare soil left from the previous crop of soybeans makes an ideal planting surface.

You can either broadcast or use a no-till drill and seed into the frozen crust. I prefer bare ground but a little snow cover won't hurt anything.

Atrazine will control weeds the first year and give your new switchgrass a great start! I prefer to go heavy at about 4 quarts per acre on heavy soil....lighter sandy soils may require less. You can't use to much atrazine as far as the switch is concerned. I'm not a fan of heavy atrazine use because our water is already contaminated with it, but switchgrass makes a great buffer to soak up runoff like a sponge, so a one time application on the heavy side will be worth it in the long run.

[dbltree]

Just a couple pics of Cave In Rock switchgrass on my place and how it is holding up despite the miserable winter we have been having.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/CaveInRock2.jpg

None of my switchgrass has went flat compared to the NWSG mix which has entire areas flat as a pancake.

Some areas of pure switchgrass for winter cover you can count on will make a great addition to your wildlife management program.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/CaveInRock1.jpg

[SDWC]

Great looking switchgrass dbltree. Couple questions.I planted a switchgrass plot last march,about 1 acre. Half of it is about
30''tall the other half is about 2' tall with quit a few weeds.
I am going to mow it this week with a dr mower.It has a fixed blade height of 4''.

1.Would that cutting height be ok?

2.Iam going to have it all sprayed with atrazine this spring just don't know what time frame to spray it.


THANKS

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: SDBC
Great looking switchgrass dbltree. Couple questions.I planted a switchgrass plot last march,about 1 acre. Half of it is about
30''tall the other half is about 2' tall with quit a few weeds.
I am going to mow it this week with a dr mower.It has a fixed blade height of 4''.

1.Would that cutting height be ok?

2.Iam going to have it all sprayed with atrazine this spring just don't know what time frame to spray it.


THANKS






This time of year mowing height isn't going to have much of an impact, it's during the growing season that one must be careful.


If you mow this summer then keep the mower at 8-12" high or even higher to just clip the tops of growing weeds with out impacting the base of the growing switchgrass.

Burning in late spring after cool season grasses have started growing but just before the native grasses start to come to life is even better of course.

Atrazine is a residual herbicide so it should be sprayed on perhaps mid to late April before weeds/grasses start to emerge. After switchgrass has 3-4 leaves on it in the summer you can spray 2-4D to kill broadleaf type weeds which is a better bet then mowing. 2-4Dis fairly inexspensive and available at places like TSC for instance. :)

[SDWC]

Thanks dbltree

[dbltree]

It's the first of March, freezing at night and thawing during the day...perfect weather and conditions for frost seeding switchgrass! :)
Ideal surface conditions have as little trash as possible such as with soybean stubble or wheat stubble.

Closely grazed pasture is also ideal because it has less surface trash and pre-fertilized!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/CowPie.jpg

The less trash the better when frost seeding...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Perfectforfrostseeding.jpg

Heavy trash/sod is less then ideal but late winter snow and hevy spring rains will work the small seed down to the soil surface.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ToThick.jpg

The ideal way to prepare sod for frost seeding is to mow it late in the summer, spray with roundup in early fall to allow for a good kill and then frost seed in Feb/March.

The alternitive is to seed now and spray at first greenup...less then ideal but it can work with careful timing.

Killing the sod in the fall gives the stubble time to break down while leaving roots to hold soil on HEL and you won't have thick surface trash like this...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Nosogood.jpg

Couple types of hand seeders that work well for small acreages or areas inaccessable to a tractor and drill.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000785.jpg

Be sure to use a seeder with a small opening to better control seed.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Perfectforsmallseed.jpg

and set the seeder on the lowest setting

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/LowestSetting.jpg

A bag seeder works well also

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Bagseeder.jpg

but use care to set the adjustment knob...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Adjustment.jpg

also to a very narrow opening before filling it with seed...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SetOpening.jpg

Cave In Rock Switchgrass is my favorite in Iowa for tall rank bedding/winter cover...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/CIRSeed.jpg

Switchgrass seed is small and "running"...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchgrassSeed.jpg

compared to NWSG seed which is fluffy and very difficult to seed...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSGseed-1.jpg

Bring a long something to "dip" seed into your seeder...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SeedCup.jpg

Seed is fairly easy to see against bare ground...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Smallseed.jpg

Freezing/thawing action will help the seed make soil contact and cold winter rains will help stratify the seed and increase germination rates.

A drill will cut thru trash but can also cause "hair pinning" of seed which actually may lesson soil/seed contact in some cases. A drill however makes for far more uniform seed coverage then broadcasting it. Both methods when done in late winter can make for a good robust stand of switchgrass and both will work for mixed NWSG stands as well.

The next step is to kill this sod with roundup as soon as grasses green up but before the switchgrass seed germinates. Usually not until late May to mid June depending on weather conditions.

[hillrunner]

Sounds great and Im ready to go except 1 problem, everything I own is still buried under snow!

[dbltree]

Central Iowa posted pics of how he properly prepared his ground for planting switchgrass last fall, by mowing and spraying the new growth with roundup.

Switchgrass Preparation (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=267209#Post267209)

He planted it in March and now he has only to watch for weed concerns later this summer and clip as needed.

For those that planted in March on unkilled sod, now we have a narrow window of oppurtunity to kill that sod before the switchgrass germinates.

I sprayed some the other day but grass is just starting to grow so I'll have to monitor it and respray if needed.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Greeningup.jpg

It's green and just starting but another week or so might be better.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/April9Sod.jpg

Even though it appears to be growing (sod/brome/fescue etc.) there are more shoots coming up this time of year. We have been inundated with rain lately so that makes spraying difficult as well.

Just another reason to plan ahead and kill sod the fall before planting.

I have seen some people burning switchgrass already but if you are trying to rejuvenate and revitalize your switchgrass stand, then burn well into May (at least in southern Iowa)

Burning late will set back coolseason grasses and small trees and shortly after the swithgrass plants will start to grow.

If you burn early then it will encourage growth of cool season grasses and they will be growing robustly long before the switchgrass "wakes" up from it's winter nap.

For those trying to encourage forbs in a overly thick stand of switchgrass then burning early would be the ticket. I manage mine for whitetail cover as my first priorty and I want it thick and tall!

[dbltree]

I continued spraying sod that I frost seeded to switchgrass this past winter and wasn't happy with the kill on the area I sprayed a few weeks ago. I was kind of afraid it was too early and it appears I was right. I didn't pack my camera along but the sprayed area was turning yellow but new grasses had come up.

Roundup just doesn't work well when it's cold and cloudy as the grasses just don't absorb it quickly like they do when it's warm and sunny and they are growing faster. Too many grasses are still dormant early in the spring and they keep springing up from roots and rhizomes.

Just bringing this up to remind everyone that fall preparation for winter seeding is far and away the best option. Grasses mowed in late summer and sprayed in September when it's still warm and they are actively growing will yield a better kill on tough grasses like fescue and brome.

[Sligh1]

QUESTION?!?!?!?
I am interseeding with a drill into some sparse established switchgrass, it needs to be thickened a ton and would not even burn it was so sparse.
There is some random grass, clover and other stuff in there. What should I do, just mow it AFTER I plant or before. Periodic mowing? Should I apply any kind of chemical treatment, if so which one? Want to make this expensive interseeding go well! Thanks!!!!
**CIR, I am also doing a few acres to Indian and Blue Stem.

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: Sligh1
QUESTION?!?!?!?
I am interseeding with a drill into some sparse established switchgrass, it needs to be thickened a ton and would not even burn it was so sparse.
There is some random grass, clover and other stuff in there. What should I do, just mow it AFTER I plant or before. Periodic mowing? Should I apply any kind of chemical treatment, if so which one? Want to make this expensive interseeding go well! Thanks!!!!
**CIR, I am also doing a few acres to Indian and Blue Stem.






How old is the sparse stand? Is it a new stand that didn't take or an old one that you are trying to rejuvenate?

Just wondering why it's so sparse? Is the soil fertility poor?

Here's my next thoughts...

Your going to interseed now which means some or all of the seed may not germinate until next spring because it has not been stratified (it's for that reason that frost seeding works better for switchgrass)

That just means you may need even more weed control over a longer period of time via mowing and/or herbicide.

You could kill the existing grasses right now with roundup. If you check the bases of the existing switchgrass you'll ost likely find that very little if any has greened up yet...but I would check first.

Atrazine works the best for residual control but I've found it needs to be applied at pretty high rates when applied on untilled ground.

At the very least I would clip the weeds/grass at 8 to 12" high as needed until the switchgrass gets established.

Are you mixing the other two native grasses with the switchgrass or planting them in a different area?

If you have more information about the stand perhaps we can be more helpful...seed is pricey so I know you want to make this seeding successful

[Sligh1]

THANKS dbltree!

Ok, I just bought this farm, the guy who planted it did it for CRP about 8-9 years ago, I think he did the minimum on everything, all switchgrass AND he seeded light AND never did any maintanence. The soil is excellent. Some areas are good stands of switch and some are more sparse. From a distance it looks good. It was very difficult to burn though, some areas harder than others, many would not take a burn basically at all.

Most of the ground I am putting straight CIR.

The ground that is at higher levels I am putting Indian and Blue Stem so the pheasants hopefully nest there where it's more dry.
20 acres to CIR which is more wet ground, 10 acres a mix of all the grasses, it's more dry but still a moist good soil.

Let me know what you think, when to mow, when to spray if you think that's a good idea. How often mow?

THANKS A TON, I really want to make this ground great!

[dbltree]

all switchgrass AND he seeded light AND never did any maintanence. The soil is excellent. Some areas are good stands of switch and some are more sparse. From a distance it looks good. It was very difficult to burn though, some areas harder than others, many would not take a burn basically at all.





Got it...makes a little more sense now.

First...don't give up on the burning, just keep at it and over time it will prove to be your best managment tool.

Remember to burn late ...mid May if possible, if you burn in April you will only encourage the coolseason grasses and weeds rather then discourage them. I can't stress enough how important timing of your burn is.

I would consider spot spray and mowing if some areas are in decent shape.

You can kill all the broadleaf weeds including the clover with 2-4D, just wait until the swithgrass has 3-4 leaves before spraying.

Grasses could be killed very early in the spring with roundup before the switchgrass starts growing.

I have also had success spraying Plateau or Journey on existing stands of switchgrass (not a new seeding)to clean up undesirable competition.

Mow only when you have too, ususally once in mid-summer will be enough, after coolseasons have put on thier first flush of growth. Clip them off enough that the switch can get sun and have a fighting chance.

Don't ever mow the switchgrass close to the ground when it is growing...good way to kill it or set it back. Keep you mower up high enough to just clip the weeds off.

Hopefully with a good burning regime you can get you native grass stand back on track!

[LoessHillsArcher]

Paul is right on the timing of the burns. We burnt an area this past April the 19th hoping to bring back some warm season grasses. It burnt well but already is extremely green, dad said it looks like a nice lawn! He did see a bunch of deer and turkey out in it but as far as our goal of restoring some warm season grasses I'm not sure if we will be succesful. If we had to do it all over again later burn for sure.

Would spraying with round up or a grass herbicide now help kill the brome..looking to do it before the natives green back up.

[dbltree]

Would spraying with round up or a grass herbicide now help kill the brome..looking to do it before the natives green back up.



Abosultely...but look back thru the pics in this thread and the NWSG thread for pics of native grasses coming up after a burn. Look for the "clumps" and make sure they are not greening up also.

If not...nuking now with RUP will make a difference. A new seeding will take much longer to germinate then exisiting mature plants, so you want to be careful of that when spring spraying a non-selective herbicide.

[Sligh1]

I am in SE Iowa, northern Van Buren County. If you knew anyone who knows and can spray, let me know. I have 30 acres. I have made 3 attempts at burning, I just think as more time goes on and more greens it will be impossible, I mean it's sparse and darn near impossible to get a big fire.
Again, if you know any names to spray and mow, etc, let me know, thanks!!!!!!!

[Sligh1]

30 acres of CRP NWSG's to clarify. 270 total acres but 30 is the amount I am trying to improve.

[goatman]

Mistake number one was being told all I could get was blackwell switchgrass four years ago by a local dealer. Mistake number two was burning a week ago. Blackwell is now emerging. Its a small plot and I will spray atrazine. I'm waiting on another patch to burn in the middle of May. I have a new small patch of CIR I frost seeded I'm waiting to take off. I may switch all of my patches to CIR. Thanks for all the help guys.

[dbltree]

I am in SE Iowa, northern Van Buren County.



Guess we need to talk... ;)

Ran across this while checking on Select EC herbicide for clover...it's also labeled for killing fescue in NWSG when applied early after the native grass has been burned.

Select 2 EC herbicide special label (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld837010.pdf)

I'm not sure if it would be better then Roundup but if native grass had started to emerge it would severely damage it rather then nuke it like Roundup.

Just another option and if one was planning on using it then burning early would be beneficial, otherwise burning late is always the best bet to set back fescue.

I've never had any luck with Blackwell switchgrass long term...starts out ok but just doesn't last compared to Cave In Rock :)

[goatman]

I've never had any luck with Blackwell switchgrass long term...starts out ok but just doesn't last compared to Cave In Rock



I'm switching to CIR as it dies out. It also doesn't get as tall.

[dbltree]

Normally I encourage late burning (May rather then March/April) to set back cool season growth which will already have started to grow. The blackened ground will warm quickly and the prairie grasses will soon start to grow and out compete the cool season "junk".

If your trying to rejuvenate and old or thin stand and wish to use herbicides in tandem with burning, then burning early is beneficial.

By burning in late March the cool season grasses will pop up quickly, easily a month before the switchgrass making it easy to kill them with Roundup.

Just don't burn early without herbicides unless you are trying to encourage forbs in your prairie grass stand.

I always encourage everyone to kill brome sod in early fall in preperation for seeding switchgrass the following spring. Mowing in late summer and spraying the re-growth in September will give you an excellent kill.

Trying to kill brome and fescue in early spring when soils are not yet fully warmed and some grasses may still be dormant is sometimes difficult at best.

I sprayed this spot in early April but 3 weeks later I could scarcely tell I had sprayed it You can just see the dead stuff if you look close, but to much was dormant and came up afterwords.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RoundupsprayedmidApril.jpg

I resprayed some several weeks later and within days it was dying...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RoundupKill.jpg

The long and short of this story is this...tyring to hurry and kill sod for a spring planting of switchgrass can be difficult versus doing some planning and killing it while it is growing well later in the summer.

This spring has been even more of a problem due to cold wet weather that didn't let soils warm up or grass grow as it might have in other years.

Mid-Contract Management

When I signed up for the MCM I wanted to choose burning, however the NRCS office told me I needed to pay for a burn plan. Burn plan?!? Who needs no !@#$ burn plan!! ;) anyway, I couldn't see paying someone to tell me what I already knew how to do (hey...toss a match into it let er go...right? ;) )

So I figured I'd sign up for the light disking since they told me I only had to scratch it up a bit.

Talking about it and doing it are two different things and it just went against the grain running a disk over my switchgrass...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DoubleDiskCRP.jpg

When I went it with the paperwork I stopped by the NRCS office and asked if I could switch to burning for the next two portions of my contract..NP to do so. I asked about the burn plan and she said...you don't have to hire someone, just follow the NRCS gudielines and fill out a Burn Plan form and turn it into us.

Sure wish they would have told me that in the first place but no one indicated to me that I had a choice. All I can say is don't be afraid to ask lots of questions and sometimes challenge their answers. Good people all, but only human....

Some of my Cave In Rock Switchgrass in early May

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/CaveInRockinMay.jpg

Some good information has been posted on switchgrass, prairiegrass, and killing brome so I'm including those links here:

Cave In Rock Switchgrass (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=275930#Post275930)

Switchgrass Varieties (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=275931#Post275931)

Killing Brome and Fescue (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=275932#Post275932)

Growing Prairies Successfully (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=275934#Post275934)

For those with new seedings, remember that most of the growth will be after June 1st depending on the weather. This years cold wet weather may even set that time back slightly. We have some 80 degree weather coming up which will be helpful but remember...
there is a reason they call prairie grass Warm Season Grass

[goatman]

My frost seeded CIR that I did in Feb. is just starting to spring up. I saw just a few tonight. Thanks for the help.

[roadking]

Fall of '06 I mowed my brome in late August, sprayed it with 1.5-2.0 qts. per acre of RU late Sept. before the first hard freeze.
Spring '07 Approx. 2 wks. before planting I hit it with RU again.
Approx. 2 wks. after the 2nd RU application I drilled CIR switch @ 9lbs./acre. When it was approx. 8-12" tall I adjusted my Brush Hog so it wouldn't cut the switch but cut the tops off all the weeds. That was all I did. I had 4-5' tall swithgrass by Sept. The NRCS guy said it was the best 1st year stand of switch he's ever seen.
Last fall I didn't get all this done so spring '08 I mowed, 30 days later sprayed with RU and a few wks. later drilled CIR in 10 acres & 10 acres in deer bedding mix. We'll see if this works as well as the previous year.
From now on I will defintely mow & spray the fall before since it worked so well the 1st time.
Hope this helps.

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: roadking
Fall of '06 I mowed my brome in late August, sprayed it with 1.5-2.0 qts. per acre of RU late Sept. before the first hard freeze.





That is the ideal way to get a good kill prior to seeding!
Establishing a stand of switchgrass or a native grass stands is only possible by first killing any competitive grasses such as brome and fescue but even then, without residual control... something is going to come up!

I took these pics yesterday of some sod I had killed earlier this spring after first frost seeding CIR switchgrass.

It's just a "dead zone" right now...no evidence of anything live...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DeadZone.jpg

except for...baby weeds trying to emerge...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Babyweeds.jpg

some "healthier" then others...
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WeedsafterRUP.jpg

and these locust seedlings popping up in a cowpie!

guess cows like locust pods too...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Locustpie.jpg

this is a spot that I killed and itis covered with little clover or trefoil seedlings...you would think I had seeded it!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cloverafterroundup.jpg

One would think at first that "your good to go" when you look at the "dead zone" but it's easy to see that later on, weeds will become a problem and either an application of 2-4D or clipping above the switch seedlings wil be needed.

Atrazine applied before weeds emerge tales care of all that but you need to hire that done unless you have a restricted use pesticide applicater license.




My frost seeded CIR that I did in Feb. is just starting to spring up. I saw just a few tonight.



I'm glad to hear yours is coming up and even better that you can tell it is actually switchgrass! Heck I always have the darnedest time trying to tell what is switch and what is...well...anything but switch!

Here are a few pics to help identify switchgrass...


Leaf collar

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/switchgrass_leaf_collar.jpg

Leaf Hair

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/switchgrass_leaf_hair.jpg

Leaf base...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/switchgrass_leafbase.jpg

Leaf base hair

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/switchgrass_leafbase_hair1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/switchgrass_leafbase_hair2.jpg

This is some of my switchgrass in early spring...no growth present yet...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrassinspring-3.jpg

This is some of my mature CIR switchgrass on June 13th...what a difference! (not a new seeding)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchgrassinJune-1.jpg

This link has seedling pictures for much of Iowa's prairie plants:

Prairie Seedling Identification (http://www.treesforever.org/fileblob.asp?I=529&table=content&ext=pdf&name=Prairie+Seedling+Identification.pdf)

Some info on switchgrass and switchgrass seed dormancy:

Switchgrass info (http://www.forages.ncsu.edu/forager/NewsletterIssue2_April06.pdf)

Native Grass Establishment (http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publications/pbfiles/PB1746.pdf)

I'll keep checking on this new seeding but if anyone has pics of their new switchgrass plantings...please share with us.

[huntyak]

I had my fields planted this March (Frost seeding) and no growth yet. i talked to my friend and he said it would be June or July before growth would be seen. I have weeds though /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif I guess that with all the moisture this spring that he said my first year stand should be better than average. What height can I expect first year with this year having more rain? Planted 5 acres..... Hope it helps!

[roadking]

I had 5 ft. CIR by Sept. last year. That was my first year also. I think growing conditions were ideal with the rain we got. This year I'm kind of expecting the same but I know my great stands last year may never happen again.

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: huntyak
I had my fields planted this March (Frost seeding) and no growth yet. i talked to my friend and he said it would be June or July before growth would be seen. I have weeds though :)

I guess that with all the moisture this spring that he said my first year stand should be better than average. What height can I expect first year with this year having more rain? Planted 5 acres..... Hope it helps!




I have always been impressed by my very first switchgrass planting where we over sprayed some of the switch seeding when we sprayed the corn.

It was a cocktail of Bladex and Atrazine (Bladex is no longer avilable)but it had a profound affect on the switchgrass compared to the area to the right of it. The "green" area in the pic took 3 years and never did get as thick as the area where residual herbicides were used.

To get a one year stand of switchgrass without residual herbicides is unusual unless it is very productive soil or...your lucky

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/771Switch_with_Atrazine.jpg

[Sligh1]

dbltree, when you saw my land a few weeks ago AND seeding it right after (did spray RU & 2,4-d to kill stuff before planting)- would my ground fall into that category at all of good 1st year growth, the CSR is 87 on that ground per NRCS office and it's obviously in a bottom area. OR do you think it will be NEXT SPRING when most of the seed germinates??? I am still planning on keeping up with mowing even if some seeds don't germinate unless you advise not to. THANKS!

[nannyslayer]

CSR of 87, and not farming it? That is pretty good ground.

[Central Iowa]

I talked to Dan Allen (Allendan seed)of Madison county last week and he was seeing his switch grass emerging as well. So late sprayers take care if using round up now. He mentioned letting it develop 4 leaves before using 2,4-D.

[goatman]

Right again dbltree. I went back and checked and what was growing wasn't CIR. Looks like the crap I've been fighting in my food plot. I will RUP tomorrow as I have lots of ivy growing also.

[dbltree]

would my ground fall into that category at all of good 1st year growth, the CSR is 87 on that ground per NRCS office and it's obviously in a bottom area. OR do you think it will be NEXT SPRING when most of the seed germinates???



The type of ground will influence growth (just like corn) but not germination, so if the switchgrass seed germinates this spring, and weeds don't compete with it (remember...weeds love 87 CSR ground to... ;) ) then it's possible to have fantastic growth the first year.

The problem in your case Skip is going to be germination...CIR seed is notorious for poor germination without being exposed to wet/chill, but sometimes a batch surprises everyone or perhaps just the right amount of cool wet weather might do the trick and the stuff just explodes.

I've never had that kind of luck...

Secondly...if it does come up and you have a weed problem, you have to mow...depending on the timing and height of the mowing, it could keep it from being the kind of stand you are hoping for this fall.

It's one of those "wait and see" deals where we hope for the best but expect the worst.

Eventually though, on that great low ground you should have a fantastic stand of switchgrass!!

As CI notes...I wouldn't spray anything on your switchgrass from now on until it reaches a stage that 2-4D can be used (Atrazine being the only exception)

Now, as John Osenbaugh once told me...you start wearing wholes in the knees of your jeans crawling around looking for you baby switchgrass seedlings...

[PYBucks]

If you had to guess, and I know spring was late this year. But on average, at what date has switch developed 4 or 5 leaves? July 1st? 15th?

Tim

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: PYBucks
If you had to guess, and I know spring was late this year. But on average, at what date has switch developed 4 or 5 leaves? July 1st? 15th?

Tim





Mature switchgrass might easily reach that by mid June but newly germinated seedling plants I'm guessing mid July to be safe.

All bets are off this year though...even corn is growing slowly with the wet cool weather this spring.

I'll try and take some pics to follow growth and perhaps others will share pics and info from their own stands and plantings.

[ajadams]

I'm kind of waiting with my newly planted switch also. I want to keep the weeds under control with 2-4D but they are realy starting to grow and I don't see much sign of switch in there. I might have to mow, I don't want to spray too early and dad won't let me use atrazine. Would the cool weather we are having slow down the growth this year?

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: ajadams
I'm kind of waiting with my newly planted switch also. I want to keep the weeds under control with 2-4D but they are realy starting to grow and I don't see much sign of switch in there. I might have to mow, I don't want to spray too early and dad won't let me use atrazine. Would the cool weather we are having slow down the growth this year?




The cool weather is most certainly slowing growth/germination of switchgras since it is a warm season grass. It's waiting for those hot muggy days and nights to really flourish.

Broadleaf weeds can be set back easily with mowing so I would go with that as needed and use 2-4D later in the summer if weeds are still a problem.

It is very difficult to tell emerging swithgrass especially in a "sea of weeds" and spraying it when it is small with 2-4D could cause injury to the new seedlings.

I normally don't use 2-4D until late July or early August...

[dbltree]

I took some pics of my mature switchgrass to give an idea of leaf growth on June first but keep in mind this cannot be compared in anyway to newly planted seed which most likely hasn't even germinated let alone developed multiple leaves.

Most of it has 3 leaves...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/3leaf06-01.jpg

Growth is perhaps 8-12" at the bottom of the "clump"

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/3leafJune1switchgrass.jpg

Looking at a field of it you might hardly notice any growth but the base of the plant reveals new growth.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/CIR06-01.jpg

As with any plant, type of ground and weather conditions may reflect all types of variations in growth and burning may also spur quicker growth.

This is on higher ground on somewhat poor soil...

Mature,established Cave In Rock Switchgrass on June 1st

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrass06-01.jpg

We have some upper 80's to near 90's forecast so I expect switchgrass seed to start germinating and mature plants to explode with new growth. :)

[Sligh1]

Yes, I am a crazed nut when it comes to preparing and planning WAY in advance BUT...
Question, I planted about 20 acres to straight CIR this spring (had to do it for funding reasons) and say 7-8 acres to straight BB Stem and Indian. I know the BB Stem and Indian should germinate THIS SPRING. I'll mow all 28 acres no matter what's there THIS SUMMMER.
Now, my bottom line question is this. If most of the CIR doesn't germinate until NEXT SPRING, should I be mowing NEXT SUMMER just like a new planting. See what I mean?

Pheasants Forever agreed many seeds won't germinate til next spring BUT mowing good this year will be more crucial and I won't have to mow as much or at all next summer. Thoughts? THANKS!!!!

[dbltree]

If most of the CIR doesn't germinate until NEXT SPRING, should I be mowing NEXT SUMMER just like a new planting



I would guess that you will need to clip weeds again next summer but that is only a guess at this point. Should have a real good idea next year about this time if mowing will be needed.

The CIR may take off like gangbusters and be good to go....or not...but plan to clip if needed.

Some CIR may germinate this year so remember to clip at 12" if possible this summer so you don't injure any new seedlings that do come up.

[Sligh1]

THANKS!!!!
Also, sorry, I should have asked this in earlier post. Would at any point a possibility OR good plan be to consider some 2-4,d and/or round-up treatment before NWSG's green up next spring?THANKS!!!!

[dbltree]

consider some 2-4,d and/or round-up treatment before NWSG's green up next spring



i would try roundup early or 2-4D later in the summer but always based on weed growth at the time.

If you have forbs mixed in with the NWSG mix then spraying early or late isn't a good idea. Straight CIR...not a problem with the right timing.

[whitetailnut]

allright dbltree, so its late june, I have two and half acres I want to plant CIR switch next spring strictly hoping for bedding, I have plenty of food. BOTTOM LINE, what is the ultimate approach to the best start of switch you could have. The ground is now in random sw mich weeds about 3 ft tall and thick. From what I have gathered I should mow it, wait and spray, spray again, and possibly a third time, frost seed in march, and possibly atrazine in early next summer??? Is this correct?? I have time on my side and want to do it hands down the best way possible! Thanks for any tips, your posts are very informative!!!!

[dbltree]

I should mow it, wait and spray, spray again, and possibly a third time, frost seed in march, and possibly atrazine in early next summer???



That's the gist it of it!

Mow late summer and spray the re-growth in September and if need be again in October.

Frost seed late winter

Re-spray any green growth in late April and apply atrazine at that time also.

Your on the right track by doing your homework now and planning ahead!

[dbltree]

I wanted to share some pics of an older stand of switchgrass that they burned in March and then sprayed the regrowth (weeds) before the switchgrass greened up.

This is the first part of July...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrasswherbicdetreatment.jpg

I don't know what herbicides were used but I assume Roundup because it nuked the entire field at first which left everything dead and released the switchgrass when it warmed up and started growing.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrass7-5.jpg

Normally I would encourage burning in very late spring to set back cool seasons and allow the switch to dominate when it begins to grow but early burning combined with a well timed herbicide application can work as well.

You can see the switch clumps growing well in this pic...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrass1.jpg

I don't know if any residual herbicide was used in this case but this would be a perfect scenario to use a combo of roundup and atrazine to release and older stand or even a newer stand plagued with weed competition.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrass2.jpg

These are just some early July pics of my established CIR switchgrass.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/CaveInRockSwitchgrass6-28.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/CIRSwitchlateJune.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrass6-28.jpg

Plateau has worked for me in the past to release established switchgrass also. Journey is a combo of Roundup and Plateau that is easier to get and if applied before the switch greens up would kill cool season growth and give season long residual control.

Timly burning is still the most economical and effective way to manage your prairie grass stand once established. :)

[Sligh1]

Mowed my SPARSE old CIR that I drilled/interseeded in this spring. I felt guilty THOUSANDS of times over as I mowed over clumps of huge switchgrass. It was sparse BUT going over 30 acres, I sure hit some. I mowed at 8-10". Think I will kill any of that old switchgrass?

Most of my competition with the preferred CIR (and some BB & Indian) was 16-24" tall Foxtail AND some broadleafs. I am hoping I killed most broadleafs (lots were golden rod) and not sure if I'll kill the foxtail as I've heard it's a grass that can die with mowing????

Lastly, HOPING this is the only mowing I'll need this summer and hoping I could hit with some chemicals come next spring/summer. For CIR possible round-up & 2-4,d early the some Atrazine at some point. Hope that will do-er!?!?!? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Really want to hit the CIR with chemical NEXT spring/summer cause much won't germinate til next year.

*The crazy LOON that I am- I actually started mowing some new areas I am going to frost seed CIR, I am just going to FRY it with Round-up (I have tons of it and it's not that big of area- say 4-5 acres total) several times and hit for last time in September-ish. I think I need to go to project lover REHAB.

[dbltree]

Think I will kill any of that old switchgrass



No...it will be fine...

You may still need rehab though... :D

If the broadleaves come back, hit them with 2-4D rather then mow again (and they will be back, mostly goldenrod...

[koba]

I am in the same BOAT !! might use round up !!

[Sligh1]

THANKS a ton!
My Major problem is Foxtail, think my mowing will greatly help or kill it? Some spots it was like CARPET it was so thick (no too tall- I mowed in time). Evil stuff, any other suggestions for foxtail? (Probably there from my spring round-up treatment).

My other game plan above seem ok?!?!

I am checking into Deer Hunter's Rehab Clinic right now. I should be cured by 2065 they think! Wish me luck! :)

Thanks again for help on this "Massive" project that I am working my tail off to turn out great! (and my wallet's getting a work out!)

[dbltree]

My Major problem is Foxtail, think my mowing will greatly help or kill it? Some spots it was like CARPET it was so thick (no too tall- I mowed in time). Evil stuff, any other suggestions for foxtail?



Foxtail is an annual that is going to come up when we till or spray and kill everything else. It can only be controlled in switchgrass with residual herbicide like atrazine or by clipping.

My guess is this...if you don't spray(roundup) next spring, it won't be a problem. It doesn't like being clipped so that should do the trick for this year.

If you can apply atrazine and RUP together next spring that's another story, otherwise I think I would wait and clip as a last resort. That seed is laying there ready to sprout so all RUP does is kill everything else so the foxtail is...FREE....

Dang stuff anyway....I'm bound and determined to make it to heaven because I'm pretty sure the "other place" is nothing but a sea of foxtail..........

[huntyak]

We had about 5 acres frost seeded with big blue stem, Indian grass and SG in March. I see alot of "plants" but other than foxtail, can't tell if the switch growing?? Is it OK to leave the foxtail and others alone and the switch will eventually grow? We did spray heavy before the seeding.

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: huntyak
We had about 5 acres frost seeded with big blue stem, Indian grass and SG in March. I see alot of "plants" but other than foxtail, can't tell if the switch growing?? Is it OK to leave the foxtail and others alone and the switch will eventually grow? We did spray heavy before the seeding.





It's tough to tell native grasses from foxtail at this point but I would clip that foxtail off 8-12" high. That stuff is nasty and it will smother and suffocate native grass seedlings.

Next year it won't be back or at least not as bad unless you spray with RUP again.

Only way to control foxtail is with a very heavy dose of atrazine or Plateau and that's hard to do in a mixed seeding.

I'd say...clip it :)

[huntyak]

So its safe to run over the entire field and cut all grasses off at about 8-12"? That way I can get all the "foxtail/grasses."This won't hurt the new switch? Thanks.

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: huntyak
So its safe to run over the entire field and cut all grasses off at about 8-12"? That way I can get all the "foxtail/grasses."This won't hurt the new switch? Thanks.




Nope..it will be fine, it's only when you mow it close to the ground that it's hard on even established switchgrass.

[huntyak]

So I clipped some of my field today but "stopped" after a couple swipes. Felt like I was killing everything so I'll try and send you some pics on hotmail Paul of my first year frosty seeded field with IG, BBS, and CIR. Should be interesting and I'll try to get them up here. I raised my mower as high as I could but it still felt like I was mowing "low" I guess. If I get the green light from you guys I'll finish Wednesday but as you will see in my pics..... foxtail is ruling the roost and I am not even sure if any prairie grass is up????

[dbltree]

Felt like I was killing everything



Naww...I doubt it! :)

Send some pics and we'll take a look at them though. Sounds like you need to whack that foxtail off or it will do the "killing" for you...

I don't mean to make anyone "over think" any of this or scare you fellas...heck...I had to learn the hard way... By Guess and By Gosh!

Still ended up with a good stand of switchgrass too... ;)

[huntyak]

Thanks Paul! Sent the pics to your email about 5 minutes ago. If you can post em that would be great..still can't get them attached to my comments.

[dbltree]

my first year frost seeded field with IG, BBS, and CIR



This pics are pretty typical of what a first year native grass seeding is going to look like with no residual herbicide control.

This area isn't really to bad..plenty of sunlight hitting the ground.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Weeds1.jpg

The other pics show weeds getting pretty thick and it's time to clip them.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Weeds2.jpg

Plenty of good ole foxtail

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Weeds3.jpg


Time to clip this for sure
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Weeds4.jpg

All I can say is don't mow it like your lawn, just clip the top half of that foxtail off so that the native grass seedlings can get sunlight.

Clipping will set back the foxtail and weeds so they aren't sucking up all the moisture and soil nutrients.

Almost any mower/brush cutter...etc., can be lifted 8" off the ground and 12" is better.

Your not going to "kill" the native grass but it's just hard on it since it isn't like cool season grass. It develops a "clump" near the soil surface and it's not designed for close grazing or mowing when it is growing. Dormant, it can be burned without worries.

Get the mower back out and Git er Done! :D

[huntyak]

If I mow these foxtail and weeds, what can one expect for a first year stand of Switch. 1 ft, 3 ft etc? Hope its something :)I just am not even sure if I see the bases anywhere.

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: huntyak
If I mow these foxtail and weeds, what can one expect for a first year stand of Switch. 1 ft, 3 ft etc? Hope its something :)I just am not even sure if I see the bases anywhere.




If you mow now, you may see something this fall but 90% of mine the first year I was just sure was a complete failure

The second year I at least saw some but I had to mow again and I still had nothing it seemed

Third year...whooowhooo!! Stuff finally took off! That's because it was quietly growing down not up until it had the "stuff" in it's roots to push it upward and begin to out compete the "junk".

Only with a very potent application of Atrazine (or Plateau for a native grass mix) before weeds and grasses emerge are you going to get residual weed control that allows you not to mow, and when you mow it, it's not going to be 6 foot high...period.

[huntyak]

Great great advice! I will keep that in mind and "be patient." I remember you saying that it has to establish roots first before coming up. I will mow this Wednesday and how often should I do that through the next couple years...maybe 1x/summer? Hopefully once this summer will work.

[dbltree]

how often should I do that through the next couple years...maybe 1x/summer? Hopefully once this summer will work.





Generally once a summer will do the job...less being better.

Once established then burning every few years in late spring will do the trick to setback coolseason grasses without harming the native grass. :)

[huntyak]

Well, I have failed to get the mowing done. The field was just too wet today.... but the SWITCH is growing. The foxtail is still really thick as well as the greenish tall weeds shown in my thread above (not sure what they are?) In any case, will not being able to mow this year be a big deal? Hopefully the switch will compete better next year as FINALLY I can see a bunch of it about 8-12" tall. I could make it down next week but its already August and I'm tempted to just leave it. Any thoughts?

[dbltree]

You'll just have to use your own judgement regarding clipping. If the switchgrass appears to be competing alright then perhaps you can get away with leaving it.

Foxtail can get pretty thick and suffucating but if you wait to long to clip it the remains can cause more harm then good also.

Here's some pics of my own Cave In Rock Switchgrass

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Aug1Switchgrass.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/8-01-08CIR.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AugustCaveInRock.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AugustSwitchgrass.jpg

[huntyak]

Looks great..I am hoping to one day get there!

[Sligh1]

Like it's been mentioned earlier in this switchgrass post- kill late summer, would you say it's too early to start? I started killing off about 4 acres, I'll spray a few times to really hammer the brome!
What would you personally consider too late for killing brome to be frost seeding CIR later?

*If I kill good in fall, frost seed late winter AND finally- hit it with round-up and Atrazine in spring, would you recommend any changes to that plan?

[dbltree]

If I kill good in fall, frost seed late winter AND finally- hit it with round-up and Atrazine in spring, would you recommend any changes to that plan?



Nope...sounds right on to me.

You can kill the sod now but September is fine also, either way you will have time to check your kill and respray missed areas. :)

[Sligh1]

Thank you!!! Sorry for additional question that I forgot...
I know CIR grows best and TALLEST on high quality soil or bottom soils. When you are planting to JUNK ground which is hills and pasture (higher clay content)- basically POOR SOIL- would you still consider CIR or would you look at other options?

Basically, for poor soil, what's the best performing Native Grass that would fit in my plan? (Planning on CIR (partially because of how easy it is to seed & I have some left over- but want to make sure you don't suggest something else?)

[huntyak]

So I finally got around to cutting my 5 acre field of first year switch/bb/cir. Must admit..it looks 100% better but now all of it is about 12-15" high but hopefully the sun and lack of competition from foxtail will allow more growth the next 6 weeks. I had foxtail about 5 ft tall everywhere and after it was cut you could see about 80% of the field had switch about 1 ft high. So..its there but small and if anything I tokk 3-4" off the top of the switch/bb. Temps in the mid 90's this week...hope it helps!

[dbltree]

Basically, for poor soil, what's the best performing Native Grass that would fit in my plan?



Little Bluestem does pretty well on "poor clay knobs" but you can also "feed" your CIR. Take a soil test and give it what it what it's lacking (except nitrogen...forget that in the seeding year)

Once you get CIR established and you have good weed control, feed it some 46% urea just hours ahead of a good rain and look out! :D

Switchgrass is like corn...it LOVES nitrogen! CIR can put roots down half way to China to find moisture...everything else you can make up for. :)

[ajadams]

I checked my switch today and I am starting to see some 12" or so. some is seading out. But there is a lot of weeds and some foxtail in there not sure if I sould mow high, spray with 2-4d or leave it. Some areas are a lot thicker than others and some areas I don't see any switch, might just spot mow.

[Sligh1]

I am getting ready in the next week or two to do my FINAL BLAST on the Brome that will soon be a lovely CIR jungle!
Question (might have been explained before)... If seed doesn't germinate til it's real warm (much later than other junk)... WHY don't you just frost seed on living brome in Feb/March THEN, when brome comes alive (before seed germinates) hammer it with Round-up and Atrazine?!???? I'm sure there's a reason but logic makes that method at least thinkable for someone that didn't prepare like they should have.

No matter, I have my spots mowed and they are killed right now, going in for the second and final kill soon. Frost seed, round-up & atrazine to follow early spring, I feel like I'm on a bombing mission off an aircraft carrier unleashing all these aersenals. If I hit Atrazine hard (and oh yes, I will!) chance I will not need to mow?

[dbltree]

Question (might have been explained before)... If seed doesn't germinate til it's real warm (much later than other junk)... WHY don't you just frost seed on living brome in Feb/March THEN, when brome comes alive (before seed germinates) hammer it with Round-up and Atrazine?!???? I'm sure there's a reason but logic makes that method at least thinkable for someone that didn't prepare like they should have.







Because we want the seed to make soil contact and that that's difficult if it's a mass of thick brome.


That's why we mow it in late summer and spray the regrowth by early fall. Also if you go back thru this thread you'll see where I had to try and kill early season grass for a switchgrass planting and ended up spraying it twice.

Early spring many grasses, weeds etc. are dormant and all do not emerge or green up equally. So I killed it and then more grasses emerged that hadn't greened up yet.

Spring spray is a last resort and tricky project with timing being an issue. It's alright to spray any regrowth next spring but your doing the right thing by killing the brome NOW!

[hillrunner]

I checked my switch today and I am starting to see some 12" or so. some is seeding out. But there is a lot of weeds and some foxtail in there not sure if I should mow high, spray with 2-4d or leave it. Some areas are a lot thicker than others and some areas I don't see any switch, might just spot mow.





This sums my situation up pretty well . Their are a couple spots I didn't spray atrazine because of cedar seedlings and the fox tail absolutely took over. Most other places the switch seems to be coming pretty well . I have quite a few clumps that are 4-5 feet tall , but this is not the norm.I also have spots that are pretty overtaken by weeds , I have done a little spot spraying with 2-4d and this seems to help. I also plan on doing another blast of round up and atrazine next spring. All in all I think I'm doing pretty good for not acquiring this property til last December.

[ajadams]

I hit it high this morning with the mower in the bad spots, any thing growing strong I just left. I'm trying to wait till next year to start sprayng.

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: ajadams
I hit it high this morning with the mower in the bad spots, any thing growing strong I just left. I'm trying to wait till next year to start sprayng.




Sorry I missed your previous post AJ...I'd say you did the right thing. I hate mowing switch if I don't have to, it's just a neccessary evil without herbicides.

If the switch is up above competition, leave it and if the foxtail is to much for it...clip it.

Take some pics and share when you have time. :)

[huntyak]

After mowing my switch last week I noticed there were a few spots that lacked switch or were much thinner. I have heard from one farmer that it won't spread and another that it will fill in as it releases seed. Should I purchase seed this winter and frost seed again to "be sure" or just let it go? Would it hurt anything or be a "waste" to reseed with all the present switch which is about 12" TALL?

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: huntyak
After mowing my switch last week I noticed there were a few spots that lacked switch or were much thinner. I have heard from one farmer that it won't spread and another that it will fill in as it releases seed. Should I purchase seed this winter and frost seed again to "be sure" or just let it go? Would it hurt anything or be a "waste" to reseed with all the present switch which is about 12" TALL?




It won't hurt a thing to frost seed any bare patches. Mature plants will drop seed but that's a year or two away and by then those bare patches won't be so bare anymore

Weeds and grasses will quickly fill in where there isn't switchgrass (that's where a heavy dose of Atrazine comes in handy ;) ) making it almost impossible for switch to "fill in" later..... :)

[huntyak]

The switch has done pretty well considering first year and after mowing I can see it has taken a good hold but again, some spots are thinner. Is it a good idea to pay someone to come in a spray in the next few weeks with atrazine? How much will that cost? The switch is on 5 acres of what was corn the past decade, so it was frost seeded on bare field/corn stubble in March.

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: huntyak
The switch has done pretty well considering first year and after mowing I can see it has taken a good hold but again, some spots are thinner. Is it a good idea to pay someone to come in a spray in the next few weeks with atrazine? How much will that cost? The switch is on 5 acres of what was corn the past decade, so it was frost seeded on bare field/corn stubble in March
.



Atrazine is best applied before weeds emerge in the spring. it's a pre-emergent residual acting type herbicide rather then a contact herbicide.

Apply ASAP in the spring...local elevator/co-op/ag supply can spray it on most likely in the $40 an acre range but everything has gone up...I'm only guessing on the cost.

4 quarts per acre (more is better and won't hurt the switchgrass) Atrazine is a real problem in our soils and waters but a one time heavy application on switchgrass isn't going to hurt anything.

[Sligh1]

I know we've talked alot about fall KILL of brome for frost seeding switch. There's a patch of brome way back in my land I would PREFER to only go into ONCE- THIS WEEKEND to spray 44 oz to the acre of round-up with Ammonium Sulfate as it was just mowed. and again, I'd prefer to only hit it once. Next spring I will hit it will round-up and atrazine.

Would you be concerned that there's still a lot of time for stuff to grow back since we still have a good month of warmer weather (too early?) AND
Do you think ONE TIME on 6" tall brome with 44 oz to acre (and ammonium sulfate) will FRY IT????? THANKS!!!

[SEIowaDeerslayer]

I've read through this entire thread and have gathered a ton of information, so thanks to everyone. I'll be planting a couple of acres of switch next year. I have gathered that Atrazine is the best herbicide to use on it, but what would be an acceptable alternative? Mowing for me really isn't an option because I don't get to the farm more than a few times over the summer before the season hits.

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: SEIowaDeerslayer
I've read through this entire thread and have gathered a ton of information, so thanks to everyone. I'll be planting a couple of acres of switch next year. I have gathered that Atrazine is the best herbicide to use on it, but what would be an acceptable alternative? Mowing for me really isn't an option because I don't get to the farm more than a few times over the summer before the season hits.




If you can't mow, then herbicide is even more important! Princep 4L is a non RUP herbicide like Atrazine that can be used but it isn't nearly as effective. I have applied it without great success compared to Atrazine.

I would use it only as a last resort but it would be better then nothing. I would ask around and see if you can find someone with a RUP license that will p/u a couple gallons of atrazine for you or see if the local elevator will spray it when doing someones corn in the area.



Would you be concerned that there's still a lot of time for stuff to grow back since we still have a good month of warmer weather (too early?) AND
Do you think ONE TIME on 6" tall brome with 44 oz to acre (and ammonium sulfate) will FRY IT????? THANKS!!!





Why ammonium sulfate Skip?? Normally I kill brome in September with gly and it's cooked until other weeds etc. start to pop up in June.

Ammonium sulfate kills but I'm not sure if it is as effective as gly...if it is why isn't everyone using it???

Or are you using AS AND gly?????

[Sligh1]

I am using A.S. and Glyphosate together just to make it more potent on the plants (I think I have pretty rough water which A.S. is supposed to help with when using Gly). The killer is the 44 oz/acre Glyphosate (for the discussion you could FORGET that I said anything about A.S.).

One time kill THIS WEEKEND with 44 oz to acre Gly OK in your book with brome grass? (Or would you spray 2 times this fall making one of those applications later in Sept?).

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: Sligh1
I am using A.S. and Glyphosate together just to make it more potent on the plants (I think I have pretty rough water which A.S. is supposed to help with when using Gly). The killer is the 44 oz/acre Glyphosate (for the discussion you could FORGET that I said anything about A.S.).


One time kill THIS WEEKEND with 44 oz to acre Gly OK in your book with brome grass? (Or would you spray 2 times this fall making one of those applications later in Sept?).




Normally it's referred to as AMS...so you just threw me for a bit there Skip! :D

The nice thing about spraying now is that you can re-spray any spots you missed or re-growth if need be. Normally one spraying this time of year should be enough.

Role of AMS with glyphosate products (http://www.weeds.iastate.edu/mgmt/2001/ams.htm)

Ammonium Sulphate (AMS) and Glyphosate (http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/field/news/croptalk/2002/ct_0902a9.htm)

AMS – WHAT IS IT DOING IN MY TANK? (http://www.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu/aginfo/entomology/ndsucpr/Years/2007/august/16/weeds_16aug07.htm)

Softcede® (AMS Replacement) (http://www.wickmanchemical.com/products/softcede)

[dbltree]

Few late August pics of Cave In Rock Switchgrass on my place...

It's hard to really show just how thick it is...but it's thick!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ThickCIR.jpg

and tall!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/8-26CIR.jpg

This is a CIR clump which kind of shows how thick it gets at the bases but the "clumpiness" allows small birds and animals to move around while protected from overhead predators.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/CIRClump.jpg

Just a reminder if your planning on planting some switchgrass or a NWSG mix next winter or spring...NOW is the time to prepare if you'll be planting on sod (such as CRP).

Mow it...wait for the regrowth and kill the brome and fescue with a serious dose of glyphosphate while grass is still green and growing...most likely now thru early October.

This will allow you to frost seed into killed sod in Feb/March either by broadcasting or drilling into frozen sod. Atrazine can be applied in mid April as a pre-emergent herbicide to speed growth by controlling weed competition which will surely explode despite being killed using Roundup.

As with any project...planning is the key to a successful prairiegrass planting!

[Sligh1]

AWESOME!!! If mine could look like that, I would move into the switchgrass and live there myself!!!

I have mowed and JUST sprayed my brome for the 2nd time, this time with 44 oz to the acre of round-up and Ammon Sulf.

I have a question, in the process I went over ANOTHER 1/2 acre that I had not planned on which I didn't mow obviously. I know it's KILLED. My question is, could I go in there with my rotary mower in the winter or simply BEFORE I frost seed or drill to get rid of some of the JUNK on top????

Let me know your rental rate for 1 acre for me to move into your switchgrass, I am looking to move out of my house soon. THANKS!!!

[dbltree]

could I go in there with my rotary mower in the winter or simply BEFORE I frost seed or drill to get rid of some of the JUNK on top????



You bet!! (assuming you have a tractor by then... ;) )


Sooner would be better just so it can kind of rot down a little and not be a mat of heavy grass that seed can't penetrate...

A post was made earlier about planting switchgrass with corn so I'm adding it to this thread because it is an excellent way to establish switchgrass.




Here is some pics of my corn/switchgrass plots planted mid-May of this year. I gained alot of info from this site which really helped me to be successful on this project.







http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc355/KymboJo/IMG_2924.jpg

http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc355/KymboJo/IMG_2914.jpg

http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc355/KymboJo/IMG_2922.jpg



The total planting was 14 acres, two of which was frost seeded. Just as I started to seed in mid March the ground thawed and was just too soft to run the drill across so I planted the bulk of the switch grass in mid-May along with the corn. June was unusually cool and wet which slowed the corn growth down in my area and I was guessing would do the same to the switch. So I decided to press my luck and spray atrazine and round up in mid June. In July we finally got some hot sunny days and the switch finally popped up and has grown well ever since. Some of the switch that has went to seed is near chest high, but most is knee to waist high.

Surpisingly the ground that was worked and planted to switch in May looks better and with fewer weeds than the grass that was frost seeded in March. Most of the weed competition is from broadleafs in this area and not foxtail or other grasses so the switch is growing pretty well in this area to spite the weeds.

Now I'm trying to decide whether to harvest the corn or to leave it stand into next season and I see positves and negatives to both. If the corn stands into next spring it will be good cover and food this fall and may be easier to spot/frost seed switch in some thin spots this winter. I assume the debris left behind from the combine will cover the ground and make it more difficult to frost seed.

However if the corn is down I could spray the broadleaf weeds early next spring before the switch germinates. Another plus is that the corn is worth probably around 3-4 grand which would cover the expences of seed and chemicals quite nicely...

Dbltree whats your take on the question of harvesting the corn say in November after the switch is dormant?

[ajadams]

I was out at the farm today and noticed that the switch I planted this spring was looking pretty brown. Looking closer at it there looks to be rust spots on the leaves. A Lot of it is totally brown or dead looking and the rest looks to be on its way. What can I do? Its only 3-5 acres but I'd hate to replant.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ajadams</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was out at the farm today and noticed that the switch I planted this spring was looking pretty brown. Looking closer at it there looks to be rust spots on the leaves. A Lot of it is totally brown or dead looking and the rest looks to be on its way. What can I do? Its only 3-5 acres but I'd hate to replant. </div></div>

I think it's all going to be "brown" now...here's mine 9-26-08

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/CIR9-26.jpg

The thing green in it then was goldenrod and the occasional weed...some big bluestem and indiangrass in the foreground of this pic...it's brown too!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FieldofCIR.jpg

It really doesn't sound abnormal but pictures always help... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[ajadams]

I'll try to get some pictures before it all turns brown. The stuff that is brown looks very wilted and the stuff that is still green has rust colored bloches all over the leavss. And they seem to have lost there seeds of the tops, seems early too be losing there seeds. If by chance it is rust, what would I do? Thanks

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: ajadams
I'll try to get some pictures before it all turns brown. The stuff that is brown looks very wilted and the stuff that is still green has rust colored bloches all over the leavss. And they seem to have lost there seeds of the tops, seems early too be losing there seeds. If by chance it is rust, what would I do? Thanks




Post some pics before we start guessing but:



switchgrass is resistant to many pests and plant diseases



I've never heard of "rust" on switchgrass...sometimes little "spots" on the leaves but nothing detrimental to the plant itself.

I first question if some of the plants your looking at are even switchgrass as there are some other plants out there that look to much like switch, (especially in a new seeding) and that leads to further confusion.

If the plants are indeed switchgrass then I suspect there is nothing wrong with them at all but just "preparing" for winter.

Take a bunch of pics next time your out there and lets take a closer look and see what's going on, but personally I have never heard of anyone having disease or fungus type problems in switchgrass... :)

Just some more I.D. tips...

Look for the "hair"...

http://agronomy.unl.edu/240/switchligule.gif

Seedheads (if there are any)

http://agronomy.unl.edu/240/switchhead.gif


and dream about the day when big bucks are hiding in...

http://agronomy.unl.edu/240/switchstand.gif

http://www.outsidepride.com/images/products/detail/graphics/switchgrass.jpg

Cave In Rock Switchgrass

http://plant-materials.nrcs.usda.gov/photoset/300dpi-jpg/0068.jpg

Some good pics comparing Cave In Rock to Dacotah and Sunburst in this link:

Native Grass Project (http://feedstockreview.ornl.gov/pdf/bergan/session5_bergan.pdf)

NWSG (http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publications/pbfiles/PB1746.pdf)

[ajadams]

Here's a few pics of my switch.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/PA110908.JPG


http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/PA110907.JPG


http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/PA110906.JPG


http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/PA110905.JPG


The brown spots are whats making me nervous hope the pictures are clear enough to see.

[timekiller]

Here's the rest of AJ's pics


http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/PA110908.JPG

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/PA110906.JPG

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/PA110905.JPG

[dbltree]

The brown spots are whats making me nervous hope the pictures are clear enough to see



Here I thought I had taken every possible picture of switchgrass and then....you go and prove me wrong! :D

I am positive that mine gets "mottled", "blotchy" "spots" on them not unlike your pics.

I don't think you have anything to worry about but I certainly understand your concerns.

I think mine has already turned but I'll look it over and take some close pics to compare with yours this week. :)

[dbltree]

I always love to walk through the Cave In Rock switchgrass this time of year....it's just beautiful, like a sea of waving grass.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SwitchgrassinNov.jpg

Lot's of beds and I always wonder...single bed? Hmmmm...a monster buck no doubt... ;)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DeerBedinCIR.jpg

I took this pic of a buck walking thru the switchgrass...nothing but horns!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/2008%20Season/Hunt%20Scenes/BuckinSwitch.jpg

Can you pick out the doe sneaking thru the switchgrass?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Scenery/Deerinswitch.jpg

Tall, rank Cave In Rock switchgrass is awesome deer cover and a great help in deterring poachers and holding deer on your property... :)




SWITCHGRASS is a native, perennial, warm-sea-son
sod-forming tall grass. It is most commonly found in prairie
lowlands, but will grow under a wide range of climatic
conditions. A thick stand of Switchgrass makes excellent
winter and early spring wildlife cover because of its ability to
remain in an upright position when covered with snow or ice.
Many farmers prefer Switchgrass to other varieties of native
grasses because of the hard seed coat that easily feeds through
conventional seeders. A drought-resistant grass, it even
produces well in the driest years. During the dry summer of
1988, a Missouri producer reported his Cave-in-Rock
Switchgrass hayed in mid-July yielded 6000 pounds per acre,
compared to fescue hayed in late May which produced barely
1000 pounds per acre.

FACTS ABOUT SWITCHGRASS:
Switchgrass is the earliest maturing warm-season
grass.

It is drought tolerant, salt tolerant, and acid
tolerant.

Native and established stands provide good wildlife
cover. A Switchgrass provides excellent erosion control. Switchgrass is categorized as a sand stabilizer.

VARIETY:

Alamo was developed in Texas. The foliage is coarser than some varieties and often reaches 10 feet
in height. Its late maturity date insures production into the early fall.

Kanlow is a lowland variety of Switchgrass that is suited to the southern two-thirds of the United
States in lowland sections. It is especially well suited to poorly drained sites or areas subject to
periodic flooding, but also performs well on upland soils. Young plants are succulent and are readily
grazed by livestock.

Blackwell is a variety that produces lush foliage longer into the growing season, and is disease
resistant. Heavy vigorous roots and stems make it excellent for conservation use.

Cav-in-Rock originated in Illinois. It is a top choice among all the Switchgrass varieties because of
its palatability and disease resistance. Cave-in-Rock Switchgrass is noted for its adaptability to the
growing conditions found in the more eastern states, especially the high humidity areas. It grows
best in years of average rainfall and temperature. Plants often reach over 5 feet at maturity. Late
maturing, it grows best on fertile. well drained soils.

Nebraska 28 is a particularly well adapted grass for the sandhills of Nebraska or similar types of
soils and conditions.

Pathfinder is a late maturing, winter hardy, vigorous variety of Switchgrass. Pathfinder gives
superior results in stand establishment, forage, and seed production.

Shelter originated in New York and is used primarily for wildlife plantings and highway rights of
way. It is durable and demonstrates great standability.
Summer is a variety know for its leafy, rust resistant early appearing vegetation. Growing tall with
coarse, late maturing leaves, it is particularly well adapted for North Dakota, South Dakota, and
Minnesota.

Trailblazer is a variety of Switchgrass that refines the finest qualities of Pathfinder and adds an
even greater degree of winter strength. Northern states with a harsh climate find this variety
particularly suitable for their needs. It is a very palatable grass with a high T.D.N. (total digestible
nutrients).

ESTABLISHMENT / MANAGEMENT
As with all warm season grasses, good soil to seed contact is essential. A firm moist seed bed that
has been tested for deficiencies of the soil with applications made to correct these deficiencies is the
basis for the grass crop.

Switchgrass begins growing in mid-spring with about 70 percent of its production after June 1.

Switchgrass should not be grazed or hayed below the 6 inch height, and the hay harvesting should not be scheduled too late in the growing season (approximately August 15).

Switchgrass may benefit from a controlled burn every 3 to 5 years to eliminate residue and mulch
build up.

If you choose to fertilize, avoid high rates of nitrogen. Allow 8 to 8 inches of stubble to remain through the winter to provide insulation for the root system, assuring a healthy, vigorous
growth the following spring.

Osenbaugh's Prairie Seed Farms
Nathan Pace
515-975-1400-Cell
Osenbaugh's Prairie Seed Farms (http://www.prairieseedfarms.com/)

[Sligh1]

I know we've talked about this earlier in thread somewhere BUT...

What is the ideal timeframe (date-wise) to FROST SEED CIR switch??? (maybe a date window???). AND, what's the conditions you like to see (before snow, right after snow- on top of it, etc, etc.).

On FROST SEEDED CIR, when is the time-frame you like to spray a pre-imergent like Atrazine, etc on a new planting????

Thanks!

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: Sligh1
I know we've talked about this earlier in thread somewhere BUT...

What is the ideal timeframe (date-wise) to FROST SEED CIR switch??? (maybe a date window???). AND, what's the conditions you like to see (before snow, right after snow- on top of it, etc, etc.).

On FROST SEEDED CIR, when is the time-frame you like to spray a pre-imergent like Atrazine, etc on a new planting????

Thanks!






I like to frost seed on bare ground from Feb 1st on so that we are pretty assured of snows and plenty of freezing an thawing.

Really, anytime now would probally be fine. Some like to seed on a little snow to better check seed coverage but deep snow can wash when it melts or blow and drift and move seed around.

By seeding on frozen bare ground I know snow will press it against the soil where it is less likely to"float" around.

I would apply Atrazine close to the begining of April because it's a pre-emergent, but if one is using roundup with it then you can wait til mid April and let things green up a bit. :)

[dbltree]

For those of you that either have switchgrass or are establishing it, I wanted to bring up a neat trick that will help you funnel deer between to points.

Deer love to bed in switchgrass and they will make runways thru it but...if you mow a path thru it they will follow it like a puppy on a string!

Pick a couple entrance/exit points perhaps between woodlots or cover/bedding areas to food sources. Mow a path thru the switch and spice it up by planting it to clover or perhaps cereal grains in the fall.

Great place to have a stand at the edge of the timber leading to the pathway or a ground blind in the switch itself adjacent to the pathway.

Another helpful idea is to plant rows of shrubs along side as additional cover as you see in this pic...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/HighBushCranberries.jpg

The runway you see is leading from one pocket of cover straight to another and bucks feel comfortable following the shrubs and switchgrass.

If your in the planning stages of establishing switchgrass I wouldn't even worry about it at this point but in a few years it's something you can go back and "add" to enhance your whitetail sightings and increase the odds of funneling a mature buck your way... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

My friend nannyslayer gave me permission to post this video of a doe he harvested...note the switchgrass in the background and how quickly the deer disappear into it's protective cover.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee299/nannyslayer/th_doeshot.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/albums/ee299/nannyslayer/?action=view&current=doeshot.flv)

It's also noteworthy that those deer were following along side the safety of cover but in the "easy" path of the open food source.

[Sligh1]

FROST SEEDING, here's what it said on 1st page- "To ensure the maximum results from your frost seeding, you should broadcast the Switchgrass before February 28th."

Would you recommend doing this between now and the next few weeks? Let's say ON AVERAGE there was a date you had to pick to frost seed- what date would that be? Or a date range?

*OH, DAAAAHHHH, I have my answer a few posts up. For some reason I didn't think I had addressed timing for frost seeding CIR & thought I asked it about frost seeding something else. Sorry.

Thanks for all your help!!

[Central Iowa]

Don't remember where I foud this picture but it shows a great example of funneling deer in switch grass with cut lanes.
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Clear_Cut_Lane_In_Switch_huntinPA1.jpg

[dbltree]

Awesome example of funneling with switchgrass Travis!! Thanks for posting that pic!

Right now is the perfect time to be frost seeding switchgrass or any native grass seed.

Switchgrass seed needs to lay out there a while and be exposed to freezing/thawing/wet-chill to stratify and if we get a good snow on top to press it against the soil...all the better!

Clover seed does NOT need to be stratified so we frost seed clover in late Feb,/early March.

Remember...switchgrass seed can be either broadcast or drilled into frozen soil with a no-till drill. If broadcasting use care to close down your seeder to smallest opening because switch seed is very fine and tiny.

It's also expensive...so you don't want your 5#'s an acre on a 1/4 of an acre!!

[Sligh1]

I'm gonna go out tonight and spread about $250 worth of CIR seed! Man, for an hour or two worth of fun, it's expensive!!! :)

At least it's an expense that can be a one time deal if you do your establishment and maintanence right over the years!!! It's actually VERY LOW COST when you think of how much cover & habitat switchgrass supplies. I can establish switchgrass permanently for less than most guys can plant the full cost of ONE YEAR of corn.

COST per acre: 8 lbs of CIR switch, around $80 (could do 10 lbs to acre). Atrazine $30/acre at most. Round-up when you 1st kill everything, maybe $25/acre. TOTAL: $135/acre. Your earlier expense was just mowing the area. Later on it's maybe some more atrazine BUT the big one will be burning. If you did 10 acres for $1,350 you'd have a deer paradise!!!! One time expense that is so worth it and will transform a piece of land!!!

[Osenbaugh]

Where did you get your CIR from and what did you pay for it

[BigTypical]

CIR price has varied for me over the last few years. Put in 11 acres last spring and paid $9/lb. Picked mine up from Allen Dan. I'm going to do more this spring.....What's the current price at Osenbaugh's?

[wibohnt]

I have a question on 5 acres of CIR I planted last year. It was drilled into field that was beans the prior year. After planting the contractor disappeared, basically went AWOL on me. So nothing elase was done, no mowing or spraying. I am not sure how to proceed this year, is it a lost cause???

[Sligh1]

I bought my CIR from you- OSENBAUGH'S last year- I had 50 lbs left over, seeded about half today. I think I paid around $10 a lbs but i can't remember.

I frost seeded mine in some flat bottoms BUT a few spots were on a hillside- do I need to worry about rain and water washing the seed away????

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: wibohnt
I have a question on 5 acres of CIR I planted last year. It was drilled into field that was beans the prior year. After planting the contractor disappeared, basically went AWOL on me. So nothing elase was done, no mowing or spraying.

I am not sure how to proceed this year, is it a lost cause???






No...not at all, but what are your capabilities? Can you mow, spray or burn or do you need to hire it all done?

I would suggest clipping it this spring perhaps early June for starters and then perhaps burning next spring.

Can you post or email any pics of what it looks like?

dbltree2000@yahoo.com if emailing is easier but your switchgrass should be there...just needs a little TLC :)

[mbow1]

I have 8 acres that I want to frost seed CIR in. My worries is the seed will not make it to the ground with the straw the stray winter wheat that came up after harvest. Should I do just frost seed it? Or should i wait till May and work up the ground and plant corn/SG mixture? I seen the pics of that earlier in the post. Also what about atraxine and Corn does it affect corn growth?

[Sligh1]

wiboht- When did they plant it? Spring? Many of that seed might not have germinated SO this spring could be its 1st growing season. Probably, some germinated last year and some this year. I can't think you'd go wrong by spending, say $250 on seed (5 lbs per acre on an area that already has some switch hopefully) and frost seeding it NOW among what's already there. Then, hit it with Atrazine.
Dbltree will obviously guide you from above post he responded to far better than me.

When was it planted, best guess on DATE?
Is there a lot of weeds?
Did you see lines of germinated switchgrass where it was drilled in?

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: mbow1
I have 8 acres that I want to frost seed CIR in. My worries is the seed will not make it to the ground with the straw the stray winter wheat that came up after harvest. Should I do just frost seed it? Or should i wait till May and work up the ground and plant corn/SG mixture? I seen the pics of that earlier in the post. Also what about atraxine and Corn does it affect corn growth?




You can frost seed right now, no worries about the seed making soil contact as snow and heavy rains will push the tiny seed thru the trash to the soil below.

If a no-till drill is available to rent in your area, then you can run the drill over the frozen ground to cut thru the trash but it's not necessary if not available.

If you wait and till the ground, the switch seed will not be exposed to wet chill and will not germinate until the following spring...so you lose a whole growing season not to mention fighting weeds all summer!

Atrazine is a pre-emergence herbicide that controls weeds in corn, sorghum and switchgrass...it's doesnt inhibit growth of corn or switch...only weeds. :)

[wibohnt]

My switch was planted in spring, I do not recall the exact date. I don't have any pictures of the field from last year and I never really looked close enough to see if I could see the rows of planted switchgrass. I am able to mow or spray the fields myself, I would need help burning as I have never done that. As the I looked at the field last year it certainly had its share of weeds but I would not say it was overgrown. I would think I could frost seed now with out worry of seed making it to the ground.

[dbltree]

I am able to mow



That's what I would plan on this year but always mow high as possible, just enough to clip weeds at 8-12" above the ground.

Native grasses can't handle being mowed close, especially when young.

These are some pics of some of my switchgrass along with some broomsedge mixed in.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrass/Switch1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrass/Switch2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrass/Switch3.jpg

this pic is a little far back but shows Big Bluestem all flat as a pancake in the waterway area while the switchgrass is standing despite ice and snow this winter.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrass/BigBluestem02-02-09.jpg

I'm an advocate of ALL native prairie plantings but some straight switchgrass is awesome for never fail winter cover...

[wibohnt]

Thanks for the assistance, believe me I need it! So mowing it is, I will keep it above 8". I also plan to frost seed over the top within the next two weeks for insurance. Would it still help to get Atrazine on the fields? If so when should that go down?

[dbltree]

Would it still help to get Atrazine on the fields? If so when should that go down?



Yes...it sure would help at 2-3 quarts per acre applied in very early April before weeds emerge. If you do it early enough a quart of Roundup could be added to burn down any early weed growth...but we are talking early April here!

Switchgrass won't emerge until May sometime so you have a little time, but cool season grasses and weed will emerge in early to mid April.

Spray early and then you might not even have to mow at all which is the best bet.

Remember however that Atrazine is a Restricted Use Pesticide requiring a license to buy, so you may need to hire your local ag supply/grain elevator to apply it.

[Sligh1]

5 acres of CIR switchgrass SEEDED!!!! :)

Got the brome mowed and FRIED last September. Went in last night and got my $20 broadcast spreader and spread 10 lbs to the acre (obviously I ended up using my whole 50 lbs bag instead of less). Pretty excited to hit it with Atrazine and Dual!!! Found 2 really nice sheds in the process of seeding!

*I will time my atrazine/dual spraying correctly, I've done all the preparation perfectly. If weather and conditions are good, what's an average stand of switchgrass look like the 1st year that's been frost seeded pretty heavy and had proper spraying???

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: Sligh1
If weather and conditions are good, what's an average stand of switchgrass look like the 1st year that's been frost seeded pretty heavy and had proper spraying???




Like this...

the switch next to the corn was sprayed with Atrazine and Bladex (Bladex has been banned) while the far right had not and took three years to amount to anything. This picture is late summer, first year after frost seeding.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/771Switch_with_Atrazine.jpg

[whitetailnut]

just a question on location. im in sw michigan a little ways further north than you guys. I have 2 acres killed and ready for frost seeding but still have over 18 inches of snow and no signs of much thawing very soon. Should I wait or get it out there fairly soon. Also, would atrazine and round up dates mentioned be the same up here. Thanks for the help, like sligh, I am anxious to get started!!!

[dbltree]

still have over 18 inches of snow and no signs of much thawing very soon



Better wait..that's a tad too much snow! A few inches is one thing but that much snow will move seed if it melts rapidly.

You have time yet, hopefully you'll get a mid-winter thaw soon, then get it put on.

It might be a few weeks later before you can spray but most likely by mid April in your area.

Soon as it barely starts to green up...nuke it! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[Sligh1]

Someone expressed a concern to me about spraying Atrazine onto brome grass that was mowed and killed with round-up the earlier fall. They claimed that if you frost seed on dead brome and go to spray it in the spring- the Atrazine will not reach the soil good enough because it gets stopped from saturating the soil by the dead grass.

They said their method was to only spray on bare dirt OR otherwise weeds will come through because the dead grass keeps the Atrazine from saturating the soil and keeping weeds at bay. What do you think? I might just spray a bit slower so I saturate the ground. In my killed brome I can see soil pretty well because I fried it so bad- so maybe it's not a concern with me, should anyone be concerned? Thanks!!!

[wibohnt]

Another Atrazine question. I was just thinking about where I am spraying this Switchgrass, I have a two acre foodplot almost adjacent to it that I would like to put into corn. Would it make sense to have those two acres sprayed at the same time? Would it matter whether the seed was in the ground at the time of spraying?

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: wibohnt
Another Atrazine question. I was just thinking about where I am spraying this Switchgrass, I have a two acre foodplot almost adjacent to it that I would like to put into corn. Would it make sense to have those two acres sprayed at the same time? Would it matter whether the seed was in the ground at the time of spraying
?



You can spray atrazine on corn and switch at the same time...as long as weeds haven't started to emerge.

If you till the corn ground then weeds might not be emerged yet while the untilled switchgrass ground weeds might be coming up.

Won't have any affect on the seed of either corn or switchgrass no matter when you spray atrazine. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[WhitetailWarrior]

I have one for you.....So lets say that I have a few areas that I would like to put switch in and I haven't done anything yet to prepare them...Thinking hypothetically here....lol.. What would be my best option. The ground had brome grass and maybe some weeds growing in it last year. Should I frost seed over everything and spray with atrazine/roundup when it starts to green up...? or should I kill and till them seed with switch? What do you think will work the best?

[dbltree]

So lets say that I have a few areas that I would like to put switch in and I haven't done anything yet to prepare them



Hmmmm...I always get asked this question and no one likes the answer... ;)

Killing brome after switch has been seeded is a very "iffy" proposistion. In the spring, dormant grasses don't all come to life and start growing at the same time which makes it tricky and difficult to kill before switchgrass germinates.

This is why I prefer to prepare in late summer by mowing, waiting roughly 6 weeks and then nuking the growing grass with Roundup. If anything is missed a second shot can be given in October.

You don't have that option in the spring...it's a one shot deal and if you don't get a good kill you have brome suffucating your new switchgrass seedlings.

Having said all that and you are determined to do it anyway...

Frost seed asap, then try to get the roundup/atrazine cocktail on by late April. Hopefully the brome is growing well by then and you will get a good kill.

Don't spare the horses however! Apply the gly at full strength along with surfactant, ammonium sulfate (AMS).

It can work...but it can also fail if weather doesn't cooperate..........

[PYBucks]

Drill in RR Soy Beans this spring, spray 2 or 3 times this summer and frost seed next spring.:)

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: PYBucks
Drill in RR Soy Beans this spring, spray 2 or 3 times this summer and frost seed next spring.






Best advice ever!:)

[WhitetailWarrior]

With the cost of CIR seed I may just have to wait until this fall and do it the right way as this is a 25-30 acres of river bottom ground. I was just hoping that I would have a shot in the dark at getting it established this year...Thanks for the help.

[Sligh1]

I have a few spots- maybe a couple acres that greened up a little even after I killed them off in september- about 2 weeks later they had some green growth. If I do the March 15 to April 1st heavy duty Atrazine spraying (and regular amount of DUAL), you think it will kill the green stuff that sprouted up last fall after killing? (Any reason to add round-up?) Seem like dates and sticking with the Atrazine/dual will do the job OR do I need another approach on the patches with green??? thanks!!

*Other ideas include- adding round-up to spray, spray LATER with round-up (late April?) added to Atrazine/dual, spray atrazine/dual then spray round-up later OR do you think I'm fine with heavy atrazine and regular amount of dual sprayed in late march to April 1st as planned?

[dbltree]

do I need another approach on the patches with green???



That's the stuff I prefer to go back and kill in October and yours is a perfect example of what happens Skip.

It depends...if the "green" was broadleaf weeds then atrazine will prevent it from coming up.

If however it was brome or fescue that did not get a complete kill then I would hit those spots with roundup asap when they green up again this spring.

Just keep a close eye it this spring and be observant, just like a farmer with his crops. There area always windows of oppurtunity to correct a problem if you check on things regularly.

[dbltree]

Just a reminder for those getting ready to frost seed switchgrass seed..it's VERY tiny seed and unlike other native grass isn't "fluffy"

Switchgrass seed is free flowing and no additives are needed to get it to flow thru the seeder.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrassseed1.jpg

I use a very small handheld lawn grass seeder or a bag seeder like this one

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Equipment/BagSpreader.jpg

An even better deal is to rent a no-till drill from your local county conservation board like this Truax drill I have rented from Davis County.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Equipment/TruaxNo-tilldrill.jpg

No matter what you use, close everything down as if you had sugar in there...otherwise you will dump a lot of expensive seed in a very small area....

Here's another pic of Big Bluestem and Indiangrass that has been knocked flat by harsh winter weather

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrass/FlatBB.jpg

and Cave In Rock switchgrass in the same field still standing upright!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrass/CIRupright.jpg

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: wibohnt
My switch was planted in spring, I do not recall the exact date. I don't have any pictures of the field from last year and I never really looked close enough to see if I could see the rows of planted switchgrass. I am able to mow or spray the fields myself, I would need help burning as I have never done that. As the I looked at the field last year it certainly had its share of weeds but I would not say it was overgrown. I would think I could frost seed now with out worry of seed making it to the ground.




Here are some pics of the switch in question after one year, drilled into soybean stubble. I suspect that the seeding was not "frost seeded" in otherwords drilled in after cold weather perhaps in April or May.

The seed would not have been stratified by cold wet chill of late winter and most likely will not germinate until this spring.

The first pic shows the new seeding on the right (no switchgrass that I can see)and clover on the left.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrass/NewSwitchgrassseedinonright.jpg

This is a closeup that shows, weeds/grass were not really that bad!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrass/Firstyearswitchupclose.jpg

Just an overall view of the field.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Switchgrass/Newswitchfirstyr.jpg

wibohnt recently frost seeded some additional switchgrass onto this field and is going to keep weeds clipped this year, so hopefully he'll have a good field of switchgrass there eventually!

This field shows lots of promise even though there is nothing there right now, simply because it isn't choked with a heavy infestation of brome or quake grass.

[wibohnt]

Thanks Dbltree for posting my photos. One correction in that first photo the Switchgrass is on the right(unmowed) the left is clover that was planted last year. I still plan to have the field sprayed with Atrazine at the beginning of April. If I do that would you still clip those old taller weeds you see in the photo? Also, there are several smaller portions of the field that do have heavier Brome. Would it make sense to spray that at the same time with Atrazine then come back in later April and hit anything greening up with Roundup?

[dbltree]

Quote:
Switchgrass is on the right




Dah! I knew that too (I'll change it.. ;) )



I still plan to have the field sprayed with Atrazine at the beginning of April. If I do that would you still clip those old taller weeds you see in the photo?



Not unless you get some new weed growth that is to thick and suffucating...a few weeds won't hurt anything.



there are several smaller portions of the field that do have heavier Brome. Would it make sense to spray that at the same time with Atrazine then come back in later April and hit anything greening up with Roundup?



You bet! Brome is the real enemy! Kill that with roundup as soon as you feel it's greened up and actively growing

[dkelley]

I have a stretch of switchgrass that is 30 yards X 1/2 mile and serves as a buffer along a creek. The creek is full of large full grown cottonwoods and the switchgrass stand has now starting to get out of hand with volunteer cottonwoods.

I decided to take on the effort of clearing these with a chainsaw as my labor is cheap. I spent about 6 hours with chainsaw in hand yesterday and actually can start to see a dent in it.

My plan is to get as many of these cut down by the end of March and then burn it. My NRCS rep says that if I burn regularly it should be enough to control the cottonwoods. I don't believe this switch has ever been burned and I just acquired the ground last year.

The majority of them are 1-3 inches in diameter with some pushing up to 8 inches. To try and get rid of them, I hinge cut about a 15 X 40 yard section of more cottonwoods just next to the switch and have added many more cottonwoods from the switch on top of this pile. I have also left many more just lay where they dropped in the switch and plan on just letting them burn, realizing I will not be happy with my self trying to pheasant hunt this.

Is a large pile of cut timber in a clearing along a creek beneficial for deer and other critters vs burning the pile? Should I be spraying the stumps after I cut them or will yearly burns keep them under control? Any thoughts on how else to tackle this project?

Thanks

[Mercer]

I am seeding a plot this early spring with WSG that will contain a mix containing 2 lbs per ac. of switchgrass. From what I have read you can apply a light application of Journey. Someone told me I could apply 11 oz per acre with little affect on the switch grass and still get some weed control. Does that sound right?
Thanks in advance for your advise as I am new to WSG

I had put this in as a new topic and think I should have put this message here, sorry. new member.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Is a large pile of cut timber in a clearing along a creek beneficial for deer and other critters vs burning the pile? Should I be spraying the stumps after I cut them or will yearly burns keep them under control? Any thoughts on how else to tackle this project? </div></div>

I never burn brush piles but rather leave them to encourage birds and small game to use them as cover. Usually blackberries will grow up in the pile as well enhancing it for habitat.

Of course if you don't till around it, the pile will burn when you burn the switchgrass so you will have to deal with that problem if you want to save the pile or piles.

Sounds like you have a big job clearing it but it will be far greater habitat when you get the switchgrass rejuvenated.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mercer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am seeding a plot this early spring with WSG that will contain a mix containing 2 lbs per ac. of switchgrass. From what I have read you can apply a light application of Journey. Someone told me I could apply 11 oz per acre with little affect on the switch grass and still get some weed control. Does that sound right?
</div></div>

Journey is a mix of roundup and Plateau so I'm not positive on the exact rate but you are right...low end rates will not affect switchgrss.

I have used Plateau at 4-6 ounces with no ill affects on switch seedings but normally it's 10-14 ounces for most native grass mixes.

[tomt]

Hello, Just joined so I could bombard dbltree with questions !!!
Really enjoy reading these threads and gaining lot's of info. Wish I would have known about this site two years ago when I planted about 30 acres in CRP grasses. Hopefully I submit this correctly (not too good with computers).
First question, Could I "topdress" the thin areas of my planting with CIR switch by frost seeding this spring? Still have about a foot of snow on the ground here in central Wisconsin. Would probably do as soon as the snow disappears. I want to create as much cover for deer, as there is plenty of ag fields in my neck of the country for the food. I do also put in a few food plots.
I do hope to put some strictly CIR areas in other areas as I have 18 acres of CRP that just came out from under contract. Will do that by your soybean/spray/frost seed the next year method.
Thanks again for all the knowledge/info given.
Tom