Tree Planting

[dbltree]

It's getting that time of year, to order seedlings and prepare for tree planting. These photos were taken 6-8 years ago.
The single best thing I ever did was plant Autumn Olives several rows thick around my property line. Now they are considered an invasive plant, however they have not spread on my place. They grow extremely fast, provide a great cover and a dense screen. You can see (barely) High Bush Cranberry to the left next to the lane and they are barely a few feet high and planted the same time as the Olives! These Autumn Olives were 3 years old when the picture was taken.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/771Autumn_Olive.JPG




Please note that my Autumn Olives were planted nearly 13 years ago, well before they were considered invasive.

They work well for me and I have thousands so they are there to stay, however I am in no way advocating planting them now.

There are many native, non-invasive alternatives to choose from.




Planting trees with a County Conservation Board planter


http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/771scan0001.jpg

Sod killed with Roundup in September to prepare for spring planting of trees on CRP ground.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/771scan0010.jpg

Tree planting using Oust and Princep herbicides to control weeds.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/771scan0002.jpg

If your thinking about planting trees and shrubs for wildlife food, cover or a "poacher screen" check out:

Iowa Tree Planting (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/iowtrees/index.html)
Coldstream Farm (http://www.coldstreamfarm.net/)
Oikos Tree Crops (http://oikostreecrops.com/store/home.asp?cookiecheck=yes&)
Windbreak Trees/Kelly Tree Farm (http://www.windbreaktrees.com/list.html)
MDC- Nursery (http://mdc4.mdc.mo.gov/Documents/316.pdf)
Idaho University Nursery (http://seedlings.uidaho.com)
Red Fern Farm Nursery (http://www.redfernfarm.com/)
Windbreak Trees/Kelly Tree Farm (http://www.windbreaktrees.com/list.html)
Lincoln Oakes Nursery (http://www.lincolnoakes.com/content/view/82/98/)
The Wildlife Group (http://wildlifegroup.com/)
Reeseville Ridge Nursery (http://www.reesevilleridgenursery.com/4.html)
Edward Fort Nurseries (http://www.edwardfortnurseries.com/index.htm)
Rhora's Nut Farm and Nursery (http://www.nuttrees.com/hybrid.htm)
PA Game Comission - Howard Nursery (http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=480&q=167317)
St. Lawrence Nursery (http://www.sln.potsdam.ny.us/)
North Central Reforestation (http://www.ncrtrees.com/)
Lawyer Nursery (http://www.lawyernursery.com/)
Native Nurseries (http://www.nativnurseries.com/)
Big Rock Trees (http://www.bigrocktrees.com/)
Woody Warehouse (http://www.woodywarehouse.com)
Advantage Forestry (http://www.advantageforestry.net/hunteroaks.htm)
Porky Farm Nursery (http://porkyfarm.com/evergreen.asp)
Nuserymen (http://www.nurserymen.com/trees-seedlings/eastern-red-cedar-seedlings.html)

Lot's of great information and ideas to create better habitat and protect those big bucks!

Planting information:

Iowa State Forest Nursery Seedling Catalog (http://www.iowadnr.gov/forestry/files/09catalog.pdf)

How to plant a tree (http://www.iowadnr.gov/forestry/plant.html)

Forestry links (http://www.iowadnr.gov/forestry/advice.html)

Tree planting objectives and the seedling selection process (http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-2516/NREM-5023web.pdf)

Tree seedling availability, planting, and initial care (http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-2538/NREM-5024web.pdf)

Early protection and care for planted seedlings (http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-2521/NREM-5025web.pdf)

Tree Planting (http://forestry.msu.edu/extension/ExtDocs/planting.htm)

Tree Planting - Establishment and care (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM1677.pdf)

North Dakota Tree Handbook (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/trees/handbook/ndhand-1.htm#shrubs)

Here is a list of potential trees one might consider in a hardwood tree planting.

Tree Identification key (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/pages/tree/)




Black Oak - Quercus velutina
This is a large tree, sometimes growing more than 100 feet in height.The thick, nearly black bark is marked with deep furrows and irregularly broken ridges. The characteristic inner bark is bright yellow to orange, hence the alternate common name. This tree grows on dry uplands, slopes and ridges.

The wood, while hard and strong is not tough, checks while drying and generally is inferior to that of the Red Oak. Still, it is used in much the same ways. Historically, the inner bark was important for its tannin and as a source of yellow dye. The bitter acorn is inedible.

Tree Size height 60' - 80' diameter 2' - 3'
Black Oak (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/Home/trees/oak_blk/tabid/5389/Default.aspx)

Black Oak- Quercus velutina (http://ostermiller.org/tree/blackoak.html)

http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/black_oak/bark.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/black_oak/tree.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/black_oak/leaf.jpg
http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/black_oak/fruit.jpg




Red Oak - Quercus rubra

The bark darkens and roughens near the base of older trees, while becoming fissured with broad, grayish ridges on the upper trunk. The tree grows on rich, well-drained soils.

The wood is similar to that of the White Oak, and although more porous and less resistant to decay, is used extensively used in construction and interior work.

The Red Oak grows more rapidly than most oaks and is useful for planting in residential areas. The acorns are not as tasty as those of the White Oak, but many kinds of wildlife feed on them
Northern red oak (Quercus rubra) (http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/silvics_manual/volume_2/quercus/rubra.htm)

Red Oaks (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/trees/oak_red/tabid/5395/Default.aspx)

http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/red_oak/bark.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/red_oak/fruit.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/red_oak/leaf.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/red_oak/tree.jpg




Pin Oak - Quercus palustris
The mature tree is distinctive from a distance with its ascending upper branches, horizontal middle branches, and drooping lower branches. The round acorns are the smallest of Ohio's oak trees. The Pin Oak grows in wet, often poorly drained soils of bottomlands and swamps. The strong, close-grained woods warps and checks badly in drying and has limited uses. Various wildlife, including Wood Ducks, feed on the acorns.
Pin Oak (Quercus palustris) (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/tabid/5394/default.aspx)

Pin Oaks (http://www.ohio-nature.com/pin-oak-tree.html)

http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/pin_oak/bark.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/pin_oak/fruit.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/pin_oak/leaf.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/pin_oak/tree.jpg




Chinquapin Oak - Quercus muehlenbergii
The light gray or silvery-white bark of this tree resembles that of the White Oak. The tree grows well on the rich soils of bottomlands, but it also is found on drier hillsides.

The strong, durable wood is used for railroad ties, fuel and construction lumber. Its inclination to check badly during drying, however, makes it of little value for cabinetry and better furniture.

Reportedly the acorns are "sweeter" than those of any other oak.
chinkapin oak (http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=244)
Chinquapin Oak (Quercus muehlenbergii) (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/trees/oak_chinq/tabid/5392/Default.aspx)

http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/chinquapin_oak/bark.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/chinquapin_oak/fruit.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/chinquapin_oak/leaf.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/chinquapin_oak/tree.jpg

Dwarf Chinkapin Oak can produce acorns in 3-4 years which makes it very a very attractive oak to consider planting! They are also perhaps the sweetest acorns to be found...

Quercus prinoides Willd.
Dwarf chinkapin oak
Fagaceae (Beech Family)
USDA Symbol: QUPR
USDA Native Status: Native to U.S.
GROWTH FORM: rhizomatous shrub or a small tree to 25 feet (7.6 m). BARK: thin gray bark with furrows and scaly ridges. TWIGS and BUDS: grayish twigs, broadly rounded bud brown to chestnut-brown with a blunt apex, scales have some pubescence. LEAVES: shortpetiole 1/4 - 5/8 inch (6 - 16 mm); leathery leaves are obovate, 1 1/2 - 5 1/2 inches (38 - 140 mm), 3/4 - 2 1/2 inches (19 - 63 mm), margin undulate or toothed with 3 - 8 pair of short rounded teeth, base cuneate, apex rounded; shiny dark green above, light green below with slight pubescence. ACORNS: annual; 1 - 2 acorns on peduncle up to 3/8 inch (10 mm), thin cup with short gray pubescent scales, covering up to 1/3 of nut; oblong to oval light brown nut, up to 3/4 inch (19 mm) long.

Dwarf Chinkapin oak can produce acorns at 3 - 5 years. The largest known dwarf chinkapin oak is growing in Richardson County, Nebraska.
Dwarf Chinkapin Oak seedling sources:
Dwarf Chinkapin Oak — Quercus prinoides Seedling Source (http://oikostreecrops.com/store/product.asp?cookiecheck=yes&P_ID=416&PT_ID=69&strPageHistory=cat)

Dwarf Chestnut Oak (Quercus prinoides) (http://www.treetrail.net/quercus_prinoides.html) does say this...

Quercus prinoides usually doesn't grow more than 20 feet tall, and it begins producing acorns at a young age, often when only three or four years old.
Unlike many oaks, once it starts bearing, it has a good crop almost every year. Its acorns are also less bitter and more palatable to wildlife than those of most other oaks. ALLEGHENY CHINKAPIN (http://plants.usda.gov/factsheet/pdf/fs_capu9.pdf)

MDC White Oak list (http://mdc.mo.gov/forest/IandE/oak_hickory/w_oak.htm)

Chinkapin oak is closely related to the smaller but generally similar dwarf chinkapin oak (Quercus prinoides). Besides the differences in size, the two species can be distinguished by their typical habitat: chinkapin oak is typically found on calcareous soils and rocky slopes while dwarf chinkapin oak is more likely to be found on sandy soils.
Although these two oaks are generally regarded as separate species, they are sometimes considered to belong to the same species. Interestingly, when the two are considered to be conspecific, the larger chinkapin oak is often identified as a variety of dwarf chinkapin oak (as Quercus prinoides var. acuminata) because the later was described first.

Chinkapin oak is also sometimes confused with the related chestnut oak. However, unlike the pointed teeth on the leaves of the chinkapin oak, the chestnut oak generally has rounded teeth. Unfortunately, this distinction is often not readily apparent. A more reliable means of distinguishing the two is by the bark. Chinkapin oak has a gray, flaky bark very similar to white oak but with a more yellow-brown cast to it, hence the occasional name yellow oak. Chestnut oak has dark, solid, deeply ridged bark that is very different. The chinkapin oak also has smaller acorns than the chestnut or swamp chestnut oaks, which have some of the largest. Dwarf Chinkapin Oak (Quercus prinoides) leaves

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ldplants/images/quprin872.jpg

From this site: dwarf chinkapin oak (http://www.forestryimages.org/browse/subimages.cfm?SUB=13892)

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2148075.jpg

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2148094.jpg

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2148071.jpg

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2148081.jpg

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2148092.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DwarfChestnutOakLeafandacorn.jpg


Oikos Tree Crops - Dwarf Chinkapin Oak (http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/product.asp?numRecordPosition=8&P_ID=416&strPageHistory=cat&strKeywords=&SearchFor=&PT_ID=69)

Morse Nursery - Dwarf Chinkapin Source (http://www.morsenursery.com/index.php?cPath=1&pID=1069)

LINCOLN-OAKES NURSERIES (http://www.lincolnoakes.com/content/view/82/98/)

Prairie Pioneer™ Dwarf Chinkapin Oak - Quercus prinoides ‘Fort Lincoln’
Dwarf Chinkapin Oak grows typically as a multi-stemmed, suckering, large shrub or small tree, 6 - 16 feet in height. It is native in the eastern U.S. as far west as southeastern Minnesota, eastern Nebraska and Texas.

Prairie Pioneer™ is a seedling selection grown from seed collected from a native stand in southeast Nebraska by Greg Morgenson, manager of Lincoln-Oakes Nurseries, Bismarck, ND. This novel, small-statured, tree-like cultivar is collaboratively released by NDSU and may reach 24-28 feet in height at maturity.

It has withstood -35 to -40◦F numerous times in Bismarck, ND, and therefore is hardy in zone 4, and potentially zone 3b as well. Prairie Pioneer™ was selected for its dark green, very lustrous foliage and upright growth habit easily trained to a single stem. The leaves vary from 2 - 4 ½ inches long, ovate-oblong to obovate, acute tipped and wedge-shaped at base, with 4 - 6 shallow undulate to dentate teeth on each side.

The lustrous foliage is somewhat reminiscent of the leaf quality on broadleaf evergreen holly species. The underside of the leaves is finely tomentose and lighter colored. In spring, trees are covered with yellow male catkins before leaves emerge, and sessile acorns are produced if a suitable white oak member species is in the area for pollination. Fall color is typically yellow to tannish-brown.

Propagation is by side grafting on containerized seedlings of chinkapin oak (Q. muehlenbergii), swamp white oak (Q. bicolor) or preferably, bur oak, if proven to be compatible. Prairie Pioneer™ merits attention as a dense, quality-foliaged small tree for residential landscapes and various sites where large trees are unsuitable.
Current Nebraska Champion Tree - Oak, Dwarf Chinkapin (http://www.nfs.unl.edu/championtree/championtreeview.asp?championtreeid=58)

http://www.nfs.unl.edu/graphics/ChampionTree/oakdwarfchinkapin-salem-2001.jpg

Oak ID Key (http://www.livinglandsandwaters.org/milliontrees/oakacorn_id.pdf)

True Nature Farm - Dwarf Chinkapin Oak seedlings (http://truenaturefarm.com/treecatalog.html)

RPM Southern Hardwoods (http://www.rpmecosystems.com/pdf/South_catalog.pdf)

The following pics are of Chinkapin oak Quercus muehlenbergii Engelm. (not dwarf)...pretty tough to tell which is which.

Chinkapin oak (http://www.wildflower.org/plants/result.php?id_plant=QUMU)
http://www.wildflower.org/image_archive/640x480/SAW/SAW_03027.JPG
http://www.wildflower.org/image_archive/640x480/SAW/SAW_03029.JPG
http://www.wildflower.org/image_archive/640x480/SAW/SAW_03025.JPG
http://www.wildflower.org/image_archive/640x480/PCD1757/PCD1757_IMG0028.JPG



Swamp white oak - Quercus bicolor is a deciduous tree with a broad, rounded crown. The dark, shiny green leaves are silver on the bottom side. Fall color is usually yellow, but sometimes reddish purple.

Though ornamentally insignificant, flowers bloom in April attracting pollen-seeking insects that attract migrating vireos, tanagers and warblers in search of a meal. Large acorns mature in early fall providing food for deer, wild turkey, black bear, fox and gray squirrels.

Indigenous to moist, bottomland locations, this oak has surprisingly good drought resistance.
swamp white oak Fagaceae Quercus bicolor (http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=313)

Swamp White Oak (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/trees/oak_wh_swamp/tabid/5402/Default.aspx)


http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/q/wqubi--brlarge12356.jpg http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/q/wqubi--lf12366.jpg http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/q/wqubi--fr16299.jpg





White Oak (Quercus alba)

A dominant forest tree on dry to moist sites throughout the Commonwealth usually reaching 80'-100' high. This tree is very important to both wildlife and people.

The acorn is an important wildlife food and eastern Native Americans made a flour from these acorns. Traditional uses of White oak wood include hardwood flooring, whiskey barrels and boat building. The famous Revolutionary War frigate, USS Constitution, "Old Ironsides", was made of White oak.

The "white oak group" includes all oaks without bristle-tipped lobes and acorns that ripen in one season
White Oak (Quercus alba) (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/trees/oak_white/tabid/5401/Default.aspx)

white oak Fagaceae Quercus alba L. (http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=35)

http://plants.usda.gov/gallery/large/qual_002_lhp.jpg

http://www.oplin.org/tree/fact%20pages/oak_white/bark.jpg http://www.oplin.org/tree/fact%20pages/oak_white/tree.jpg http://www.oplin.org/tree/fact%20pages/oak_white/fruit.jpg




Sawtooth Oak (Quercus acutissima) is in the red oak family. Native to Asia, it is noted for its fast growth (two feet per year) and early acorn production.

The first acorns are routinely produced in five to 10 years versus the 25 or 30 years it usually takes native oaks to start producing acorns.

The acorns are large and dropped in September or early October. The sawtooth is also noted for its consistent annual production and not being as subject to frosts or poor crops which often limit white oak production.

Although the red oak group has a reputation for being less palatable (containing more tannic acid) than the white oak group, the sawtooth does not.

Sawtooths will reach 50 to 70 feet in height. They are sometimes used as an ornamental shade tree, but retain the dead leaves on the limb well into winter.

Sawtooth leaves are similar to American chestnut leaves but are smaller, four to eight inches long, and have more sharply pointed teeth. Yields from mature trees in good years range from 1,000 to 1,300 pounds of acorns per tree.
Sawtooth Oak (Quercus acutissima) (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/trees/oak_sawth/tabid/5396/Default.aspx)

sawtooth oak Fagaceae Quercus acutissima Carruthers (http://www.cnr.vt.edu/DENDRO/DENDROLOGY/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=67)

http://plants.usda.gov/gallery/standard/quac80_005_shp.jpg http://plants.usda.gov/gallery/standard/quac80_003_shp.jpg http://plants.usda.gov/gallery/standard/quac80_007_shp.jpg http://plants.usda.gov/gallery/standard/quac80_002_shp.jpg
http://greenwoodnursery.com/Images/sawtooth_oakpic.jpg

A Concordia Oak is a 3-way cross between a swamp white oak, chinkapin oak and dwarf chinkapin oak.


In 1974 botanist Paul Thompson noticed an unusual oak at an I-70 rest stop near Concordia. His discovery revealed a botanically rare, three-way hybrid that occurs only in Lafayette County. At the time, few specimens remained. Concordians hurried to get the rare acorns to the state nursery. Thanks to Friends of the Concordia Oak and the George O. White State Nursery, the oak’s future is secure. To learn more about seedling availability, call Concordia Parks and Recreation at 660-463-4277.
There is some confusion between another "concordia oak" as mentioned here...


The name “Concordia oak,” used for the threeway hybrid from Lafayette County, already designates a small cultivar of the English oak (Q. robur ‘Concordia’, known for its bright yellow spring leaves). Surely taxonomists will want to avoid confusion here. Could you tell us what botanical epithet, if any, has been settled for the Missouri tree, and identify its three parents?
David Dunlap, West Plains

Editors’ note: You’re right—Concordia oak is also a common name for the English oak cultivar you mentioned below. Our Concordia is Quercus X introgressa (named by botanist P.M. Thompson).http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Concordia%20Oak/ConcordiaOak2.jpg

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Concordia%20Oak/ConcordiaOak5.jpg


http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Concordia%20Oak/ConcordiaOakAcorns.jpg


Tree tubes

Plantra Tree Tubes (http://www.plantra.com/bntube_stake.php)

http://www.plantra.com/images/buynow/VentedO.jpg


Tubex Tree Shelters (http://www.tubex.com/)

http://www.tubex.com/_media/images/Product%20Pages/Tubex%20Treeshelters/tubex-standard-two-ties.jpg


BlueX shelters (http://www.growtube.com/comments/)

http://www.growtube.com/includes/img/gallery/28.jpg


TreePro tree shelters (http://www.treepro.com/)

http://www.treepro.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/OlsonA0001.jpg.w180h670.jpg

Tree Shelter Tests (http://www.caswellfp.com/Articles/MD_TreeShelters.pdf)

Cost Share Options

I'll try to put some of these in the appropriate threads but here are just a few cost share options to consider for various forest improvement practices. Be certain to read the EQIP practice link carefully and note that simple wording can double a payment per acre!!

Iowa only....REAP Practices must be approved by IDNR Forester and paid once inspected by the IDNR Forester and bill submitted.

TSI - Timber Stand Improvement 5 acre minimum - allowed $160 an acre X 75% =$120

Tree Planting - 3 acre minimum $600 allowed per acre X 75% = $450

Tree Planting/Weed Tree Removal - $160/$600 x 75% (weed tree removal may be less acres then total planted)

Federal Programs...these two have identical practices but EQIP practices allowed are different by county/state while WHIP is nationwide.

Environmental Quality Incentives Program (EQIP)
Wildlife Habitat Incentive Program (WHIP)
Check by State (http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/programs/eqip/EQIP_signup/index.html)

The following is just a brief list of a few of the options available...check this link for the complete list and the payment rates.

2011 Iowa EQIP Practices and Payments (http://www.ia.nrcs.usda.gov/intranet/Directives/FY2011%20Iowa%20EQIP%20Practice%20Descriptions%20a nd%20Payment%20Rates.pdf)

314 Brush Management (weed tree removal)

647 Early Successional Habitat Development/Management (Timber Edge Feathering)

490 Forest Site Preparation

666 Forest Stand Improvement (TSI or Weed Tree removal)

422 Hedgerow Planting

338 Prescribed Burning

391 Riparian Forest Buffer

612 Tree and Shrub Establishment

380 Windbreak or Shelterbelt Establishment

In all cases either the forester or NRCS Tech will need to inspect the finished practice before the operator/landowner can be paid. Usually a simple bill will suffice (10 acres TSI X $160 for example) but in some cases they will want an itemized (seedlings, herbicides, fuel, labor etc) that add up to the total cost share.

The federal programs are not cost share, just a payment per acre so slightly different then the state programs.

Talk with NRCS and your local forester/private land biologist for more details but even they get confused, so look over the links and be informed yourself!
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[dbltree]

I tried using Princep granular on my plantings the last two years with mediocre success. Up until late June or early July it seemed to help quite a bit but then the weeds and grass came in thick. I mixed about a pound to pound and a half (dont remember exactly) of dry Princep with 15 gal of water and applied with an ATV sprayer until the dirt around the tree was damp. This was done 04-04-05.

Like I said, it helped but I still ended up having to either Round-up later or manually remove the weeds. I have not tried Oust because of the cost, but a friend is going to try it this year.

Have you tried Princep alone and what were your results? Did you apply your Princep differently than I did? Is one application of Oust sufficent for the whole year



Princep works as a residual more like Atrazine and on my ground, which is very heavy clay, I have to put on a min. of 4 qts to the acre to even make a dent and it works better on bare ground. I don't think you can put Princep on heavy enough to kill year old seedlings.

The Oust is the very best IMO, but it is expensive and potent enough to cause injury to some newly planted seedlings, but safe for conifers and oak seedlings.

Surflan A.S. and Princep is a great combination and perhaps safer to new shrub seedlings.

For smaller plantings I use Roundup and Princep. I use a 2x2 screwed to an upside down 5 gal. bucket and a back pack sprayer(after the seedlings are planted) and set the bucket over each seedling, spray...move on to the next one.

Most evergreens, one can spray Roundup over top of the trees as long as they are not actively growing (producing new growth)which of course can be tricky...

Fall is best for that cause you need the grass growing but the trees not!

To answer your ?? directly , I think you need to at least double the application rate of Princep.



I'd love to try the Oust, but I think my friend said it was around $600 for a minimum purchase, or at least that was what it was going to cost for one years supply. For that kind of money I may stick to round-up even if it takes me several days to apply it. What kind of price did you find on Oust?

Oust is about $5.50 an oz and Townsend Chemical will sell you however much you need.

Depending on type of trees 2-4 oz per acre.(varies for evergrees and hardwoods)

Townsend Chemical Division (http://www.townsendchemical.com/)

Here's some links to Oust herbicide.

Oust Extra (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld6BP006.pdf)

2007 North Dakota Weed Control Guide (http://www.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu/weeds/w253/w253-5b.htm)

Effective Herbicide Use in Christmas Tree Plantations (http://forestry.msu.edu/extension/ExtDocs/plntatn.htm)

IDNR Weed control guide (http://www.iowadnr.gov/forestry/pdf/weeds.pdf)

Weed control in tree plantings (http://www.weeds.iastate.edu/mgmt/2002/treeplantings.htm)

Tree herbicides (http://www.clemson.edu/extfor/herbicide%20prescription%20manual/herbicidemanual.htm)

Calibrating backpack and ATV sprayers (http://www.co.larimer.co.us/publicworks/weeds/calibration.htm)


The first 2-3 years are when seedlings need some help with weed competition but after that mine are on their own.

Here is a list of common tree herbicdes from this link: Weed Control in Tree Plantings (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/plantsci/weeds/w1097w.htm)

Grass and Weed Control in Tree Plantings (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/pdf/weeds.pdf)


Prior to Weed Emergence

Gallery® specialty herbicide (http://www.dowagro.com/turf/prod/gallery.htm)

Gallery 75 Label (http://www.gvwest.com/labels/GALLERY262.pdf)



Trade name Gallery


Common name isoxaben

Formulations 75DF

Rate range (lb. ai/A) 0.5 to 1

Product/A 0.66 to 1.33 lb.

Product/1,000 sq. ft. 0.25 to 0.5 oz.

Weed control spectrum Annual broadleaf weeds and some grass suppression.

Leaching potential Low leaching potential and low water solubility.

Relative persistence Soil half-life is 5 to 6 months.

Application information Apply pre-emergence in late summer, early fall or in early spring prior to weed germination. Treated areas should be free of weeds or weeds should be controlled before application. Use a minimum of 10 gpa of water.



Goal® 2XL Herbicide (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld5S1071.pdf)



Trade name Goal

Common name oxyfluorfen

Formulations 2EC

Rate range (lb. ai/A) 1 to 2

Product/A 4 to 8 pints

Product/1,000 sq. ft. 1.8 to 3.7 fl. oz.

Weed control spectrum Some annual grass weeds including foxtail and several annual broadleaf weeds including kochia.

Leaching potential Nearly immobile.

Relative persistence Slightly persistent. Will control some weeds for one year or less.

Application information Do not incorporate. Use pre-emergence or postemergence. Pre-emergence is most effective when applied to soil free of plant residue and soil surface is not disturbed.

For postemergence, apply with nonionic surfactant at 2 pints/100 gallons of water and make thorough coverage. Apply before grasses are larger than the 2-leaf stage and broadleaf weeds are larger than 4-leaf stage. Use 2 lb. ai/A in areas of high weed competition for longer residual herbicide activity.

Labeled combinations May be applied with other pre-emergence herbicides registered for use in windbreaks.

Comments Conifers_Apply pretransplant, postemergence or post-directed prior to budbreak or after new foliage has hardened off. Follow label "specific use restrictions" carefully.

Hardwoods_Apply pretransplant or post-directed prior to budbreak. Spray only the base of deciduous trees and not over-the-top. Oxyfluorfen applied after budbreak may injure deciduous species.
If a nondormant application is required, apply after new tree foliage has fully expanded and hardened off and not during periods of new growth.

Avoid direct or indirect spray contact with foliage of deciduous trees. User must possess
North Dakota 24(c) SLN label for Goal 2XL at time of application.






Pendulum® 3.3 EC Herbicide (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld3HA010.pdf)




Trade name Pendulum, Prowl

Common name pendimethalin

Formulations Pendulum 60DG, Prowl 3.3EC

Rate range (lb. ai/A) 2 to 4

Product/A 3.3 to 6.6 lb. DG, 2.4 to 4.4 qt. EC

Product/1,000 sq. ft. 1.2 to 1.8 oz. DG, 1.8 to 3.2 fl. oz. EC

Weed control spectrum Annual grasses including foxtail and some small-seeded annual broadleaf weeds.

Leaching potential Immobile.

Relative persistence Moderately persistent. Will provide 3 to 5 months of weed control.

Application information Pre-emergence weed control. Slight herbicide loss will result from photodecomposition
and volatility.

Labeled combinations No combinations are labeled or specifically prohibited.

Comments Rainfall or mechanical incorporation will improve weed control. Controls germinating weeds, not established plants. Treated area should be free of any weedy plant material prior to application.

Directed application to uniformly cover desired area will result in optimum weed control.

Most woody species have excellent tolerance.





Princep® Liquid (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld786008.pdf)




Trade name Princep

Common name simazine

Formulations Princep Caliber 90DF, Princep 4L

Rate range (lb. ai/A) 2 to 4

Product/A 2.2 to 4.4 lb. DF, 2 to 4 qt. 4L

Product/1,000 sq. ft. 0.8 to 1.6 oz. DF, 1.5 to 3 fl. oz. 4L

Weed control spectrum Some grasses, suppression of quackgrass and control of many annual broadleaf weeds.

Leaching potential Slightly mobile.

Relative persistence Persistent. Will provide weed control for 1 to 2 years depending on rate used and soil pH.

Application information: Pre-emergence herbicide applied in spring or late fall. Fall application provides best weed control. Only Princep formulations listed above are labeled for use on shelterbelts. Use lower rate on first year plantings.

Delay application to new plantings until trees are established 6 weeks or preferably until late fall. Do not use on light sandy soil. Use high rates on heavy, high organic matter soil and for full season weed control in established plantings. Risk of injury is greater on high pH soils (above 7.5).

Labeled combinations: Glyphosate herbicides. No combinations are specifically prohibited.

Comments: Avoid application where herbicide may be concentrated into planting furrow. Tree tolerance is fair to good.

New plantings are less tolerant. Emerged weeds are not controlled. Quackgrass requires the maximum rate applied in the fall or apply as a split application with half applied in the fall and half applied in the spring after quackgrass growth begins.

Remove plant residue before application. Apply after leaf drop in deciduous tree species.



Snapshot® 2.5 TG Specialty Herbicide (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld0B6008.pdf)



Trade name Snapshot

Common name trifluralin + isoxaben

Formulations 2% trifluralin + 0.5% isoxaben = 2.5G

Rate range (lb. ai/A) 2.5 to 5

Product/A 100 to 200 lb.

Product/1,000 sq. ft. 2.3 to 4.6 lb.

Weed control spectrum Annual grass and broadleaf weeds.

Leaching potential Nearly immobile.

Relative persistence Moderately persistent.

Application information Apply pre-emergence in late summer, early fall or in early spring prior to weed germination, or immediately after cultivation that removes existing plant material. Requires 0.5 to 1 inch of water for activation.

Labeled combinations No herbicides are recommended nor restricted.

Comments Product should not be mechanically incorporated. Repeat applications at 150 lb/A should notbe made sooner than 60 days after initial treatment. Optimum weed control is achieved when herbicides are activated by rain or irrigation within three days after application. Do not apply to newly transplanted trees.




Trifluralin HF (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld4R1005.pdf)



Trade name Trifluralin Many products and manufacturers

Common name trifluralin

Formulations 4EC, 10G

Rate range (lb. ai/A) 0.5 to 2

Product/A 1 to 4 pt. 4EC, 5 to 20 lb. 10G

Product/1,000 sq. ft. 0.4 to 1.5 fl. oz. EC, 1.8 to 7.3 oz. 10G

Weed control spectrum Annual grasses including foxtail and some small-seeded broadleaf weeds.

Leaching potential Immobile.

Relative persistence Persistent. Will provide 1 to 2 years weed control depending on rate.

Application information Preplant incorporated for new plantings or established trees. Usually used prior to planting due to difficulty in incorporating in the row after trees are planted.

Must be incorporated into the top 2 to 3 inches of soil. Immediate incorporation preferred. A second incorporation ensures uniform mixing in treated soil.

Labeled combinations No combinations are labeled nor specifically prohibited.

Comments Trifluralin is available in many formulations. Use only those formulations labeled for use in tree plantings.

Trifluralin is safe (for human exposure, the environment, and to most woody plant species), effective, nonleaching, reliable and provides several months of residual grass and some small-seeded broadleaf weed control depending on rate used.

Many woody species are not specifically listed on the trifluralin label, however, the user can use trifluralin on nonlabeled species by assuming all responsibility for plant damage or loss.


Oust XP (http://www.dupont.com/ag/us/prodinfo/prodsearch/information/H65144.pdf)



Trade name Oust XP

Common name Sulfometuron methyl

Formulations XP

Rate range (lb ai/A) 2-8 ounces

Product/A 2 to 8 fl. oz.


Weed control spectrum Annual and perennial grasses.

Application information Preemergence

Labeled combinations - see label

Comments




Surflan A.S. herbicide (http://www.turf.uiuc.edu/teaching/NRES300/labels/surflan.pdf)


Surflan A.S. (http://www.dot.ca.gov/dist05/maint/ivm/msdsfiles/surflanas_label.pdf#search=%27Surflan%20A.S.%27)




Trade name Surflan A.S.

Common name oryzalin

Formulations A.S

Rate range (lb ai/A) 2-6 quarts

Product/A 2-6 quarts


Weed control spectrum Annual and perennial grasses.

Application information Preemergence

Labeled combinations - see label

Comments Surflan* A.S. herbicide is a preemergence surface-applied product for the control of many annual grasses and broadleaf weeds in ornamental plantings, bulbs, ground covers/perennials, established warm-season turfgrass, Christmas tree plantations, non-bearing trees and vines, and noncropland and industrial sites.

Surflan A.S. is orange in color and may cause temporary discoloration of sprayed surfaces. If this discoloration is undesirable, it may be altered by using a commercially available colorant such as Blazon or removed by spraying surface with water
or washing with an industrial cleaner immediately after application.

Surflan A.S.may also be applied with mulch colorants, such as Mulch Magic or Nu-Mulch.






Postemergence

Fusilade® II Turf & Ornamental (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld63N000.pdf)



Trade name Fusilade, Ornamec

Common name fluazifop-P

Formulations 2EC, 0.5EC

Rate range (lb. ai/A) 0.25 to 0.38

Product/A 1 to 1.5 pt. 2EC, 4 to 6 pt. 0.5EC + 0.25% v/v nonionic surfactant

Product/1,000 sq. ft. 0.37 to 0.55 fl. oz. 2EC, 1.47 to 2.20 fl. oz. 0.5EC + 3 fl. oz. nonionic surfactant

Weed control spectrum Annual and perennial grasses.

Leaching potential Nearly immobile.

Relative persistence Nonpersistent.

Application information Postemergence, translocated herbicide with no soil residual. Can be applied over-the-top of all tree species.

Labeled combinations No combinations are labeled. Should be used in combination with a broadleaf weed control program.

Comments Fusilade use in trees is a specialty product and covered by special labeling. Agricultural formulations do not include these uses. Fusilade and Ornamec provide excellent control of emerged grasses.

Repeat applications give fair to good control of quackgrass. Oil additive is required at 1 qt/A.

Fusilade and Ornamec do not control broadleaf plants.





Sethoxydim E-Pro Herbicide (like Poast) (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld8BC001.pdf)



Trade name Poast, Vantage

Common name sethoxydim

Formulations Poast 1.5EC, Vantage 1EC

Rate range (lb. ai/A) 0.33 to 0.5

Product/A 1.5 to 2.5 pt. 1.5EC, 2.25 to 3.75 pt. 1EC

Product/1,000 sq. ft. 0.5 to 1 fl. oz. Poast + 2 fl. oz. oil additive, 0.8 to 1.4 fl. oz. Vantage + 2 fl. oz. oil additive

Weed control spectrum Annual and perennial grasses.

Leaching potential Nearly immobile.

Relative persistence Nonpersistent.

Application information Postemergence, translocated herbicide with no soil residual. Can be applied over-the-top of most all woody species.

Labeled combinations Poast and Vantage can be applied with several herbicides labeled for use in tree plantings.

Comments Sethoxydim provides excellent control of emerged grasses and only suppresses quackgrass.

Oil additive is required at 1 qt/A. Sethoxydim does not control broadleaf plants.



Select Herbicide (http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld1LR004.pdf)



Trade name Select

Common name clethodim

Formulations 2EC

Rate range (lb ai/A) 0.095 to 0.25

Product/A 6 to 16 fl. oz. + 1 qt/A crop oil concentrate or oil additive

Product/1000 sq ft 0.14 to 0.37 fl. oz. + 0.75 fl. oz. oil additive

Weed control spectrum Annual and perennial grasses.

Leaching potential Nearly immobile.

Relative persistence Nonpersistent.

Application information Postemergence, translocated herbicide with no soil residual. Can be applied over-the-top of most woody species.
Labeled combinations No combinations are labeled nor specifically prohibited.

Comments Select provides excellent control of emerged grasses including quackgrass.

Oil additive is required at 1 qt/A. Select does not control broadleaf plants

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What type of trees/shrubs are there that are similiar to the Autumn olives. Are any available from the state nursery? </div></div>

Check out the State Nursery Shrub list. Nannyberry is one that may do well compared to Autumn Olives. I've tried several native shrubs and they either didn't do well or died all together, so you can see why I preferred the Olives. It figures that invasives do well and natives struggle... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Here's a link to the IDNR Nursery Catalog and order form:

Iowa State Forest Nursery (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/catalog.html)

Here is a list of native shrubs and information on each that maight make it easier to better understand each one and how it might benefit your own managment program:

Black Chokeberry Aronia melanocarpa (http://www.illinoiswildflowers.info/savanna/plants/bl_chokeberry.htm)

"Nero" Black Chokeberry (http://oikostreecrops.com/store/product.asp?cookiecheck=yes&P_ID=303&PT_ID=78&strPageHistory=cat)

http://oikostreecrops.com/store/uploads/images_products_large/303.jpg

http://www.mckaynursery.com/admin/images/plant/amela.jpg

Serviceberry (Amelanchier spp.) (http://www.hort.wisc.edu/mastergardener/Features/woodies/serviceberry/serviceberry.htm)

Serviceberry (http://www.mnpower.com/treebook/fact15.html)

http://www.mnpower.com/treebook/tree/15a.jpg

Buttonbush - Cephalanthus occidentalis (http://www.mobot.org/gardeninghelp/plantfinder/Plant.asp?code=G830)

http://www.mobot.org/gardeninghelp/images/low/G830-0828071tap.jpg

http://www.mobot.org/gardeninghelp/images/low/G830-0628050cs.jpg

Silky Dogwood (Cornus amomum) (http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/trees/coam2.html)

Silky Dogwood (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/trees/dogwood_slky/tabid/5363/Default.aspx)

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/portals/18/trees/imagetrees/dogwd_slky_tr_lg.jpg

http://oikostreecrops.com/store/uploads/images_products_large/422.jpg

Gray dogwood - Cornus racemosa Lam. (http://mdc.mo.gov/nathis/exotic/vegman/twelve.htm)

Gray Dogwood (http://www.all-creatures.org/pica/ftshl-dogwood-gr.html)

http://www.dred.state.nh.us/nhnursery/images/Michael%20Dirr/Dogwood/GrayDogx3.jpg

Chokecherry (http://www.wildfoods.info/wildfoods/chokecherry.html)

Choke cherry - Prunus virginiana (http://www.kansasforests.org/conservation/shrubs/chokecherry.shtml)

http://www.kansasforests.org/conservation/shrubs/images/chokecherry.jpg

http://extension.usu.edu/range/Images/PHOTOS/full%20size/shrubsandtrees/chokecherryflwr.jpg

http://extension.usu.edu/range/Images/PHOTOS/full%20size/shrubsandtrees/chokecherryfruit2.jpg

SANDBAR WILLOW - Salix exigua (http://www.kswildflower.org/details.php?flowerID=426)

Sandbar Willow (http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/plants/floramw/species/saliexig.htm)

http://www.anokanaturalresources.com/acd/trees/images/Willow_Sandbar_Form.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/biodiversity/herbarium/shrubs/salexi_aspect01.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/biodiversity/herbarium/shrubs/salexi_aspect02.jpg

Common Elderberry (Sambucus canadensis) (http://www.wildmanstevebrill.com/Plants.Folder/Elderberry.html)

Elderberry (http://www.sfrc.ufl.edu/4h/Elderberry/elderber.htm)

Elderberry, American, Black, or Common (http://www.all-creatures.org/pica/ftshl-elderberry.html)

http://lh3.ggpht.com/elderberryflower/R60ZLs4Hj5I/AAAAAAAANso/1afd3eQ_VM4/s400/MoTripPart7%20052.jpg

http://lh5.ggpht.com/elderberryflower/R60ZeM4HkII/AAAAAAAANvg/piUTPzK8-DQ/s400/MoTripPart8%20136.jpg


Southern Arrowwood (http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=VIRE7)
Southern Arrowwood - Viburnum recognitum (http://www.uri.edu/cels/ceoc/coastalPlants/SpeciesPages/V_recognitum.htm)

http://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/37853/60d/images.enature.com/trees/trees_l/ts0237_1l.jpg


http://web.mit.edu/cfox/www/flowers/common_names_index/2160_Sm.jpg

http://departments.bloomu.edu/biology/ricketts/Viburnum/V_reco/pics/V_rec_flowplant1tn.JPG

nannyberry - Viburnum lentago L. (http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=VILE)

NANNYBERRY VIBURNUM (http://www.mnpower.com/treebook/fact118.html)

http://www.ct-botanical-society.org/galleries/pics_v/viburnumlent.jpg

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrology/syllabus/picts/vlentagobark.jpg

http://www.mobot.org/gardeninghelp/images/low/M750-0628050cs.jpg

http://www.mobot.org/gardeninghelp/images/low/M750-0628051cs.jpg

HIGHBUSH CRANBERRY (Viburnum trilobum) (http://www.umaine.edu/umext/cranberries/HighbushCranberry.htm)

HIGHBUSH CRANBERRY (http://www.foragersharvest.com/pdf/SamThayer_HighbushCranberry.pdf)

http://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/37853/60d/images.enature.com/trees/trees_l/ts0238_1l.jpg

http://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/37853/60d/images.enature.com/trees/trees_l/ts0238_2l.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/biodiversity/herbarium/shrubs/vibtri_aspect01.jpg

Red Osier Dogwood - Cornus sericea (http://www.rook.org/earl/bwca/nature/shrubs/cornusser.html)

REDOSIER DOGWOOD (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/trees/handbook/th-3-21.pdf)

http://www.mpelectric.com/treebook/tree/26a.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/biodiversity/herbarium/shrubs/corsto_aspect01.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/biodiversity/herbarium/shrubs/corsto_aspect02.jpg

HAZELNUT (Corylus americana) (http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=COAM3)

American hazel (http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=208)

http://www.uwgb.edu/biodiversity/herbarium/shrubs/corame_aspect01.jpg

http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/trees/coam40012.jpg

http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/trees/coam4371.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/biodiversity/herbarium/shrubs/corame_nut01.jpg

Common Ninebark, Eastern Ninebark (http://www.hort.uconn.edu/plants/p/phyopu/phyopu1.html)

common ninebark - Physocarpus opulifolius (http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=PHOP)

http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/trees/phop5111.jpg

http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/trees/phop4746.jpg

http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/trees/phop5062.jpg

http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/trees/phop5080.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/biodiversity/herbarium/shrubs/phyopu_aspect01.jpg

WILD PLUM (Prunus americana) (http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=PRAM)

American plum; Wild plum (http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/factsheets/trees-new/prunus_americana.html)

http://www.illinoiswildflowers.info/savanna/photos/am_plum1.jpg

http://www.illinoiswildflowers.info/savanna/photos/am_plum2.jpg

http://www.kswildflower.org/largePhotos/wildplum4.jpg

http://www.kswildflower.org/largePhotos/wildplum2.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/biodiversity/herbarium/trees/pruame_tree01.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/biodiversity/herbarium/trees/pruame_fruit02_web400gf.jpg

NANKING CHERRY Prunus tomentosa (http://www.mnpower.com/treebook/fact84.html)

Nanking cherry (http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=PRTO80)

http://msuplants.com/images/Prunus/Prunutome_OF01_May5_med.jpg

http://www.mt.nrcs.usda.gov/technical/ecs/forestry/images/cherry.jpg

http://msuplants.com/images/Prunus/Prunutome_PR02b_med.jpg

http://msuplants.com/images/Prunus/Prunutome_LF02_Sep29_med.jpg

[dbltree]

DBL: I hear you on the Autum Olives - I planted those at my old place and really liked them and also never saw them as "invasive" (although, the dogwoods sure spread!). Which native shrubs did you try that weren't successful? The reason I ask is that I'm planting a "poacher screen" too and one of the 4 rows (recommended by the state nursery folks) is going to be the highbush cranberry & hazelnut. Looks like you have some experience with the cranberry's from your photos....any input would be appreciated.



The Highbush Cranberries seem to do well but they just don't make a dense enough screen in the fall when I need it most.

I'm working on giving Silky Dogwood, Wild Plum, Hazelnut and others a try. It's unfortunate that the Autumn Olives can be invasive because they are near perfect in every other respect.

They make a complete screen within 3-4 years, last virtually forever and produce berries birds love. So what other alternatives do we have? What will so the trick here in Iowa?

WindbreakTrees.com (http://www.windbreaktrees.com/list.html) has a great list of potential trees and shrubs for windbreaks and shelterbelts. Done properly they will provide a great poacher screen, wildlife cover and windbreak.

http://www.windbreaktrees.com/images/wind_air_8.jpg




Here is a field windbreak that is 15 years old and ½ mile long in Iowa. It is a total of 86 ft wide with Red Cedar on the outside (left side) spaced 8 ft apart. Next row is White Pine and European Larch spaced 10 ft apart in the row. Next two rows are hardwoods, 7 kinds of Oaks, Walnuts, Ash, Hickory, and Hackberry spaced 6 ft apart. On the inside (right side) is Norway and White Spruce spaced 12 ft apart. About ½ of these trees will be removed in the future a little at a time to give the others room to grow.







Conifers are the ultimate to do everything we require from a "poacher screen" except they don't have the fast growth rates.


This is why we include a mix of shrubs, trees and conifers and the ultimate conifer her in Iowa is the red cedar. Deer rarely bother it either by eating it or rubbing itin the fall. It's only drawback is fairly slow growth.

http://www.windbreaktrees.com/images/redcedar3.jpg



Red Cedars (http://www.windbreaktrees.com/redcedar.html)
(http://www.windbreaktrees.com/redcedar.html)
The Red Cedar is not really a Cedar but is actually a juniper. It has a medium growth rate of 12-24” per year with sticky foliage that is a dull green and in the winter can turn brown or purple. In the open its branches extend to the ground giving excellent protection. It is native to most of the US from Canada to Florida and Texas. Plant trees that come from your native area if possible for best survival.
It normally grows 30 or more ft tall with some specimens reaching over 80 ft and 30 ft wide. It can live a very long life with some specimens in Iowa are over 500 years old on rocky high spots. Wind and ice storms sometimes damage its small root system and weak wood. Deer will not eat this species, have seen some damage by rabbits in a very bad winter. The female plants have a large number of berries that many kinds of birds eat.




My second choice is Norway Spruce but hormone charged bucks have killed literally thousands of them on my place. What they haven't killed they have kept stunted, so if you plant them you will need to fence them. Trust me...they LOVE to rub the bristly branches and will DESTROY them!!

http://www.windbreaktrees.com/images/norway_front.jpg

They also get extremely tall in time so just allow for this if planting near power lines.




The Norway Spruce is our favorite and best large evergreen for windbreaks.
The Norway Spruce is a fast growing (2-3’ per year) evergreen that has dark green needles that are 1 inch long. It never drops its needles but keeps them on for up to 10 years. Its branches extend to the ground, giving excellent wind protection. It is a native of Europe where it grows throughout the region.

It will grow to 100+ ft tall and 25+ ft wide, it is very wind firm due to its large spreading root system, and tough flexible wood. It does live a very long life in windbreaks of over 100 years old in most soils. Due to its shape, heavy snow and ice storms cause little damage. Deer will not normally eat this species unless there is nothing else available.





White Spruce form a denser screen more like Red Cedar and are a little slower growing then Norways. Again, fence them or you will regret it!

http://www.windbreaktrees.com/images/white_spruce.jpg



White Spruce (http://www.windbreaktrees.com/whitespruce.html)


The White Spruce is a medium to fast growing (2ft plus) evergreen that has a light green or even bluish colored needles that are about 1 inch long. It has a strong evergreen smell when crushed and is one way to tell it from other spruce. It never drops its needles and can stay on for as long as 20 years. Its branches extend clear to the ground giving excellent low level wind protection. It is a native of the northern US and extending to the very end of the tree line in Canada.
It will grow up to 60+ ft tall and 20+ ft wide it is very wind firm with the large spreading root system and flexible tough wood. It can live 80+ years in windbreaks and most do. Due to its shape, heavy snow and ice storms cause little damage. Deer will not normally eat this species unless there is nothing else.

It will grow well in hardiness zones from 2-6 and some places in zone 6 can be too hot for this species in the summer. It does like a colder climate and does well in a variety of soils and quite well in clay soil and in higher PH soils up to 9. Does best in well-drained soil with a PH of 7.0 and lower. Can take more moisture and does well in level areas that can be too wet for other species in wet years.





White Pines are beautiful but they have some serious drawbacks as deer will both eat them and rub them. They get very tall in time and as they do they begin to lose their bottom branches and with that, the ability to screen.

Turkeys love to roost in them and they have a place in tree plantings but the require a great deal of protection for a long long time compared to Red Cedar needing none.

http://www.windbreaktrees.com/images/wp1.jpg




White Pine (http://www.windbreaktrees.com/whitepine.html)


The White Pine is a fast growing (2-3 ft per year or more) evergreen that has needles of from 3-6 inches long and are arranged in bundles of five on the stem. In Sep-Oct this pine “sheds “ all of its needles that grew out the previous year. These needles make excellent mulch but are also very flammable, so fire and sparks must be kept away from the base of these trees. When grown in the open its branches extend to the ground, when grown in windbreaks they usually looses these lower branches, which is common in the pine family. It is a native of northern third of the US extending as far south as the mountains in Georgia.

It will grow up to 80ft tall + and 25 ft or more wide, its large spreading root system is very wind firm, but its branches are slightly brittle and can be damaged by snow, ice, and windstorms. It can live over 100 years in windbreaks but usually has a shorter lifespan because of being broken up by wind and ice storms. On a well drained, moist soil this species will outgrow any other evergreen that can be planted there, and a 20 year old tree can be 50 ft tall. Deer will readily eat this species and due to all the new growth coming out of the very tip of a branch, browsing can severely deform or kill this plant




There are many possibles including Techny Arborvitae which also can provide a great screen and a palatable winter food source for deer.

Seedlings might be pricer then conventional conifers but effective just the same.

http://www.windbreaktrees.com/images/techny_arb.jpg



Techny Arborvitae (http://www.windbreaktrees.com/techny.html)


The Techny Arborvitae is a clone of its parent plant the White Cedar or American Arborvitae. This special cultivar was found growing in the wild and due to its strong characteristics has been cloned ever since. It is a medium growing (1-2ft per year) evergreen that has a dark green soft foliage. In September of each year it “sheds “ all the growth that grew out the previous year and it drops to the ground creating a very nice mulch around the tree. Its parent plant is a native to the northern US where it grows extensively and some fine, large specimens can be found on Mackinac Island on Lake Heron in Michigan.
They will grow 30+ ft tall and 15+ft wide and the spreading root system is very wind firm but the wood is not quite so strong and can be damaged by high winds, snow and ice. This tree can live100 years or longer, its parent plant can live over 500 years in the north. Age limiting factor is usually how close they are planted together as close planting and dry weather will shorten life. This tree has multiple leaders, so some damage to the top of the tree in ice and snow just lets one of the other “leaders” take over so the effect is minor in a windbreak. The foliage extends down to the ground, excellent for blocking winds. Deer enjoy eating this foliage in the winter but are rarely killed as new foliage just sprouts from the branches even if no green is showing. Deer repellant or fencing may have to be used in some area. The Techny Arborvitae grows well in a hardiness zone from 3-7 and likes over 25" of rain per year in areas with adequate soil to hold moisture during the dry months. Does not do well in sandy soil as has a shallow root system and should not be planted there. Will grow well in high ph soils such as along gravel roads, in clay soils and soils with extra moisture.





I have very high deer densities and I have tried many different tree/shrub species and so I can say for a fact that of the conifers, Red Cedar out performs all others will little care compared to other conifers.

That brings us back to shrubs which have been covered previously in this thread.

The American Plum is potential screen canidate but be aware that it too can sucker and spread.(what makes it ok and Autumn Olive not?? )

http://www.windbreaktrees.com/images/plum1.jpg



American Plum (Prunus Americana) (http://www.windbreaktrees.com/plum.html)


The American Plum is a native U.S. plant and occurs in the eastern 2/3 of the country. It could be considered a large shrub or small tree and can reach over 20 ft tall. It has hardiness rating of zones 3-7. It can be seen in heavy thickets that are spread by root suckers and other plants seem to have only one stem. In the early spring it has masses of white flowers.
The plum grows quite fast and seems to live a long time with large stems dieing and others taking their place. They have a 1’ long sharp point that is throughout the stems of the tree. They have large quantities of red or yellow fruit that matures in August here in Iowa. Many species of birds and animals eat this fruit. People often make jams out of the fruits.






I like Silky Dogwood because it can take a little more "thrashing" and survive. Better for wet areas also.

http://www.windbreaktrees.com/images/silky1.jpg



Silky Dogwood (Cornus Amomum) (http://www.windbreaktrees.com/dogwood.html)


The Silky Dogwood is a medium sized rounded shrub. It has a medium growth rate and on the average is about 10 ft tall and wide at maturity, but can be larger if sufficient room is given. It will grow in hardiness zoned of between 4 to 8 and will survive in wetter areas where most other shrubs would not survive.
Usually in August it has a multitude of seeds that are quickly eaten by birds and other animals. It looks very nice for about 10-15 years and then does tend to get more open with large branches dieing back. To rejuvenate simply cut the whole plant off just above the ground and let then resprout.

We recommend the Silky Dogwood in wetter areas and with other shrubs used for windbreaks and shelterbelts. We recommend they be planted at least 6 ft apart for best performance.






Nannyberry is one that does form a fairly dense screen and can be difficult to see through after leaf drop.
I have some growing but they are still small.

http://www.windbreaktrees.com/images/nanny_fall.jpg



Nannyberry (Viburnum lentago) (http://www.windbreaktrees.com/nanny.html)


The Nannyberry is a shrub native to the eastern 1/2 of the U.S. It has been shown to be hardy in zones 3-7. It should be considered a large shrub or small tree as it will can grow to 25ft tall. Has a nice white flower in the late spring with fleshy black fruit in the fall, they are quickly consumed by the birds.
It does well in most soils, and does sucker up from the roots so spacing from larger windbreak or shelterbelt tress need to be considered, and recommend 20 ft. Fall color can be a nice red, or in some years there is no fall color at all. Grows well with the other viburnam species.






My hazelnuts are also small but they appear to have some screening possibles. I can tell you they are a pain to plant with HUGE root systems!!

http://www.windbreaktrees.com/images/hazelnut1.jpg



Hazelnut --- American Filbert---(Corylus Americana) (http://www.windbreaktrees.com/hazelnut.html)


The Hazelnut grows in a hardiness zones of between 4 and 8. It is a medium to large sized (10ft+) multi-stemmed shrub that has a medium growth rate. It is native to America and grows in the eastern 2/3 of the country. It grows in most soils except for the very wet.
The hazelnut can spread with its suckering of the roots and can spread where not wanted. Some places can get quite large of over 12 ft tall and wide. Its nuts are about 1/2 inch round and are very sweet and found in grocery stores everywhere. They are a favorite food of squirrels and rodents, which usually get to them before people do.

The hazelnut makes a good plant for windbreaks and shelterbelts but should be placed well away from trees so they do not compete against each other. We recommend a spacing of at least 6-8 ft apart in the row for best growth and long life.





I enjoy trying different trees and shrubs that are good for wildlife, screen my property and leave a lasting legacy. It's fun to see them grow but dissapointing when the fail.

I've had a lot of failures but I keep ate it and find out what works and what doesn't.

[TimberPig]

Silvertip- I have no experience with Autum olive but I have planted nanking cherry, wild plum, and redosier dogwood, all of which are available from the IDNR nursery.
The Cherry and Plum were planted in old pasture and have done ok, but not great. In the areas that I have really concentrated on eliminating competition they have grown to about 3'-5' but in other areas they are 2'-3' after 3 years. My dogwoods are 2 years old and were planted in a cropfield. Everything I planted in cropground has done better, presuably due to the looser soils. After 2 years the dogwoods went from a 2' whip to nice 3'-4' shrubs and fairly thick. The deer browse them heavily but they seem to bounce back fine. A local nursery guy said that deer browse on dogwoods was fine as it acts as a natural pruning to encourage the plant to thicken up. I'm not sure my dogwoods would make a good poacher screen but I wouldnt want to try to thread a bullet through them either, though they need to get taller. Out of 100 dogwoods planted I think virtually every one survived, which I cant say for the others. Of the three, I like the dogwoods the best, JMO.

As for weed/grass control, this year I am switching to a 3pt bushhog which should allow me to get a little closer to the trees vs the pull-behind mower with wheels outside the deck. Hopefully that will help cut down on the competition I have to spray.
Regardless of what you plant, if your going to go to all the effort I strongly recommend you fence them somehow if you have many deer. You can baby a tree all year(s) long only to have it wiped out in one night otherwise. Shrubs do seem to be more tolerant of deer damage than trees though.

[dbltree]

dbltree, What would you recommend for spacing between each plant as well as between the rows to produce a good poacher screen when using autumn olives?




We planted them anywhere from 2-4 ft. apart in rows 8 ft apart. The closer spacing ended up becoming a thicker screen then where we spread them out. As TP mentioned mowing is a big help the first year or two, so consider the row spacing it you have a small tractor and brush hog that would allow you to mow in between rows.

I would say the Autumn Olives are tough enough to stand everything from bucks thrashing them in the fall, to rabbits eating all the bark off and even severe sub-zero weather...they will just resprout and take right off again, to bad they are considered invasive now.

Look closely at the bottom picture, above and you can kind of see how we spaced them...it's not an exact science with a tree planter /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Autumn Olives and Highbush Cranberry at 4 years old. For comparison as far as a screen.

4 Yr Highbush Cranberry...follow down the row and you can get a pretty good idea that it isn't "screening" much!

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/7714_Yr_Highbush_Cranberry.jpg

4 yr old Autumn Olives planted same day, same herbicides as the High Bush Cranberry
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/7714_Yr_Autum_Olive.jpg

I'm going to try several more types including Nannyberry, hazelnut, redosier dogwood and Ninebark to see if any other varieties will produce a suitable screen in...my lifetime!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

I'm going to keep working on filling in with Red Cedars as well, both with seedlings and transplanting wild ones sprouting up in the CRP.

Here's a few pics of spacing comparisons for Autumn Olives. They will fill in quite aways and even without leaves they make a pretty dense screen, although you can see the advantage of red cedars for a "no fail" poacher screen.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/771Autumn_Olive_spacings_2.jpg

This one shows that very close spacings don't really make for a denser screen. Planting two rows and alternating spacings is a better and more cost efficient way to go.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/771Autumn_Olive_Spacings.jpg

This is a comparison of Autumn Olives and Highbush Cranberry at 8 yrs.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/771Highbush_Cranberry_and_Autumn_Olives.jpg

These are 8 yr old Sawtooth Oaks which have grown very quickly. They should start producing acorns very soon. They are considered an invasive, mostly in southern states, but I can't imagine them being more invasive then Shingle Oak! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/7718_yr_Sawtooth_Oaks.jpg

I have planted a number of hybrid oaks form Okios Tree Crops. They are most likely a better bet since they are all native oaks, which do "crossbreed" in the wild, hence the fast growing hybrids. They aren't cheap but I try to plant a few every year.

Hybrid oaks (http://oikostreecrops.com/store/prodtype.asp?PT_ID=6&strPageHistory=cat)

[dbltree]

As far as weed control around fruit trees, try laying down cardboard around base of tree. Smothers weeds real good. throw some sod or rocks on top to hold down. Not only does it smother weeds,,in couple yrs it totally disinigrates into soil and fertilizes trees. Of coarse if you have many trees may not be practical, but old cardboard is usually easy to come by for nothing.



Great idea, I imagine one could get plenty of cardboard at supermarkets just for asking.
Here's a commercial version and staples to hold the tree mats down. For oaks, fruit trees and even evergreens I think they would work great...no spraying needed!

VisPore® Tree Mats
(http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/View_Catalog_Page.asp?mi=1622)

Quote:
Wouldn't harmful heat be an issue with the black color? I would think a Summer sun would just cook the tree.

If not, you could just buy a roll of heavy mil plastic at a building center.




Next time your tooling on up 218 towards IC, ck out the tree plantings on the west side Ghost. They are using basically what your talking about. I haven't watched it being done but I think they apply the weed barrier as they plant.

Check out this link for comparisons of all types of weed control from mowing, weed barriers and Oust herbicide. The black plastic apparantly helps the ground warm up faster, helps preserve moisture and get's the tree growing quicker. The study was done in Kansas so I guess if they didn't cook there were safe using it in Iowa!

SYNTHETIC WEED BARRIER (http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/library/forst2/srl135.pdf#search='weed%20barrier%20for%20tree%20s eedlings')

Here's a roll form of weed barrier:

WeedBlock Landscape Fabrics (http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/View_Catalog_Page.asp?mi=1949)

compared to Oust Herbicide

Oust® XP Herbicide (http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/View_Catalog_Page.asp?mi=1909)



Old carpet does work for this also. We had used a light colored carpet which also makes small seedlings like oaks really easy to see.





One caution here is that mice sometimes burrow under the carpet and girdle trees, so use care to keep a center hole large enough to stay away from the bark.

Painting or using a plastic type tree protector can also prevent girdling.

[treerat]

Old carpet does work for this also. We had used a light colored carpet which also makes small seedlings like oaks really easy to see.

[fullrut2]

I have used the stinger on my 12,000 loblollys with good sucess.I still have 2 quarts and I think it cost me 125.00 a quart.I have a 3 point sprayer now with a 10 ft boom and plan on planting pines in the spring if all works out?
trust me the stinger is a good product and even kills canadian thistle which I had a problem with.
doug

[letemwalk]

I've also had problems with mice girdling trees which were otherwise protected (caged) from deer and did not have carpet or other mulch around them. You can keep the mice out with tree wrap or, a trick I learned from an apple orchard was to just paint the trucks with flat white paint up about 18" or so. This also seemed to work and was faster to apply than tree wrap (and cheaper since I just used leftover paint I already had around the house). I don't know if it is fool proof but it worked for me

[dbltree]

My trees from the Iowa DNR State Nursery arrived today. I bought the 200 tree Specialty Package which in my case was 50 Red Cedar, 50 Redosier Dogwood (supposed to be Silky Dogwood ) 50 Nanny Berry and 50 hazelnut.

The seedlings came packed well in plastic bags inside paper bags. They were very large seedlings 18" to 24" however I was not impressed to see the roots were nearly dry! The surest way to kill new seedlings is to let the roots dry out before planting!! It only takes a few minutes on a day like today when a warm dry wind can dry out the roots in moments. I always use a bucket of water to carry seedlings if they are larger or a "planting bag" for smaller seedlings.

When I returned home I had a box of 300 seedlings from Coldstream Farms which were all packed in a sphagnum type moss which keeps the roots moist until planting. I guess time will tell how well the IDNR seedlings survive.

Since I was unable to plant the rest of the seedlings, I "heeled" them in for now, meaning I just planted the bunches temporarily in a shaded spot and packed them tightly with soil until I can plant them.

The seedlings from the IDNR had massive root systems so we used shovels rather then a planting bar and had to carefully push the roots deep with our fingers and then stomp the opening tightly. Air to the root system is an enemy of new seedlings.

Smaller seedlings are much easier to plant with a planting bar.
I planted all the shrub seedlings 3-4 ft apart in rows 6-8 ft apart along a low area exposed to the road. The soil is to wet for the Red Cedar so I planted them on higher ground, also for "poacher screens"

[TimberPig]

I have 100 red cedar coming on Friday, if Buck10 gets them picked up with his order. I havent had too much trouble with dry roots from IDNR, but I always pour water into the bag as soon as I open it. Then I take out 15-20 and put them in a bucket with water, go plant 'em, come back for more, and so on. Dry roots kill 'em quick for sure.

[dbltree]

I planted a riparian buffer in 2002 with several different shrubs. They all did well. One note on the hazelnut. EVERY single one died off the first year. EVERY single one grew back the next spring from the root, so don't get discouraged and replant. They look great now but the deer love to browse them. The forester said it must be a thing with hazelnut, or just the weather that year, but all the other varieties did well right away.



That's good to know because hazelnut is one of the few I have never tried before. I'll watch it and see if it takes off this year or not.

[dbltree]

I just put 900 cedars in this past weekend. It is a acre of 6'x8' rows. I like the looks of the pines better but the deer browse them to much.



We finished planting another 350 trees/shrubs today. All the red cedars I planted to fill in where the deer have killed the Norway Spruce


The hazlenuts were a real pain to plant, they had a root system like an umbrella! We had to dig holes big enough to get the roots in rather then using our dibble bars for normal sized seedlings. Hope the darn things live.

[150 Class]

I'll have to partly disagree with some of the thoughts on not planting the pines and spruces in favor of the red cedars due to the deer eating up the pines and spruces. That is the very reason to start with them. The part that I do agree with is to perhaps is to use the red cedars for filling the voids. Good cover is one thing but something that provides both cover and a preferred food source is even better.

[TimberPig]

I wouldnt mind the deer taking a bite of my pines here and there but when they end up lookin like the picture below they amount to a really inefficent food plot. The deer dont bother my spruces nearly as much. They hardly bother my cedars at all. I expect that when the pines outgrow their cages in 5-10 years they will survive but be stripped on the lower 4' or 5'. They wont supply any food then and will have decreased value as cover. I really like pines, I just dont see how anybody grows them unprotected around any kind of a deer population? For a food / cover combo I would go with corn.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/535/medium/997pinecedar_jpg.JPG

[TimberPig]

Those pines look great 150. I hope mine look that nice in 15-20 years. What kind are they? They look like Scotch or Austrian maybe?
The trees I have trouble with are whites and reds, I think I should have went with a different species. My deer density is actually fairly low and there is no shortage of food. I walked that field to the left of my pic this spring and found plenty of whole ears of corn lying there untouched. They seem to just like the pines as a treat. This spring I planted 2 foodplots in that corn field, I'll have to wait to see if that helps or hurts by just bringing in more (which is the whole idea I suppose).

Dbltree, do you know the name of that disease, and where it is currently at? There are virtually no wild pines around here, just a few ornamentals here and there.

BTW, a guy from my county conservation board was out a week or so ago to see what he would be planting for me (CRP). He said they have given up on the pines due to the damage also and have switched to only cedars.

[dbltree]

Dbltree, do you know the name of that disease, and where it is currently at? There are virtually no wild pines around here, just a few ornamentals here and there.

BTW, a guy from my county conservation board was out a week or so ago to see what he would be planting for me (CRP). He said they have given up on the pines due to the damage also and have switched to only cedars.





Here's a link to some disease info. I have seen this one but not yet in my pines...hoping it takes awhile.

White Pine root disease (http://www.uaex.edu/envirothon/forestry/white_pine_root_dz.pdf#search='white%20pine%20dise ase')

Couple others to watch for...

White Pine Blister Rust (http://www.uwex.edu/ces/wihort/gardenfacts/X1118.pdf#search='white%20pine%20disease')

White Pine Weevil (http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/fidls/wp_weevil/weevil.htm)

So far as I know right now there are no serious disease problems facing red cedars, so keep this in mind when planning your plantings. Pretty discouraging to wait 10 years to have a screen only to have the trees start dying...

Some interesting info about planting in and "overstory"...

Success with white pine: planting under an overstory (http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fid/june97/06209711.html)

[TimberPig]

Geesh! And I thought all I had to worry about were the deer. On the upside, not all of those were fatal or neccesarily all that detrimental to a wildlife planting. Still, I could do fine without them.
Thanks for the links DT, interesting reading.

[dbltree]

No matter what one plants...anything along the fencline/road border will certainly make it much harder for poachers

These pics are standing in the road...looking at my "poacher screen" or across the road. Let's see...if I was a deer which side would I feel safe?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cedarandolivehedge.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Fromtheroad.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Barefence.jpg

[dbltree]

Hey TP...got some tree fence for ya!

No hurry...I don't think it's going anywhere! :)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TreeFence.jpg

Forgive my teasing...but Timberpig already knows the value of fencing your trees. For anyone that thinks it's not needed...this Blue Spruce is 14 paces from our house

It and several others were "trashed" Oct 1st 2 years ago...I was just about to get them fenced too..

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DeerDamagedSpruce.jpg

This isn't a very good pic, but it shows a white pine in an "understory" situation where I planted some along an "edge". I kept the "stuff" cleared away the first few years but now they are rising above it. The deer don't seem to bother them if they can't just walk across my lawn and give them a thrashing

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WhitePineinUnderstory.jpg

[bowmaker]

On the subject of red cedars has anyone ran into a problem with them on CRP acres? I have just been informed that I must remove several hundred volunteer cedar trees from my CRP acres which the FSA has not allowed me to mow for 10 years. As I understand the new regulations they say that you must therotecialy be able to farm the ground with regular farm equipment for it to be eligable for a 5 year extension. I don't understand why on some acres they encourage tree planting and on others require removal of voluenteer trees which add both cover and erossion control. Talk about an aching back. I was told that I need to cut these trees out rather than brush cut them during the nesting season which runs through August, and the ground need to be inspected and paper work final by the 1st of September. I just wondered if any one else had ran into this problem?

[Skully]

Bowmaker, I was given permission to "spot mow" my volunteer trees after the May 15th mowing deadline. Just go to your F.S.A. office and fill out a paper and you're good to go. You should have been able to do some "Mid Contract Management" during your first 10 year contract. In fact, as far as I knew, it was mandatory to do either mowing, burning or light disking and interseeding sometime during the ten years. There use to be cost share for such up keep, but as of late that's not been the case. I have found on my property that the CRP acres need to be mowed about every two years to keep up with the battle on volunteer trees. Spraying is also an option but much more expensive. Good luck.

[Daver]

Ah yes, my favorite subject!!!

I got a similar letter a month or so ago and let's just say that there were more than a few trees in my CRP acres. My ground was in its' second 10 year period and had never been touched. So I had 18 years worth of trees out there and some of the birch trees were approaching 20' tall. I had zillions of cedars and shingle oaks, etc, in the 4' to 12' range.

So between hand removal via chain saw, brush cutting mowing and a little bit of bull dozing, I am about 10 pounds and $3200 lighter, but they are all gone now. I was displeased because I had specifically asked about this multiple times and was assured that the trees were just "more cover for the wildlife", "no problem", etc, and then the "letter" arrived.

I applied for an extension and a short term waiver to mow during the nesting season. I am in Davis County BTW, the FSA Office there is now well familiar with this issue and I would not anticipate you having a problem getting permission to mow now, etc. At least one of the staff members in the Bloomfield FSA office was similarly surprised by this new ruling.

I will say that the place looks 100% better now and I had places that were so thick that it really needed to be cleared. I just wish they would have been clear and consistent in the first place and not springing surprises on folks.

Oh, I did have the bull dozer clear me about 3 additional acres for food plots in the timber AND made a nice little watering pond that I am quite certain will be a royal hot spot for deer and turkey.

[TimberPig]

Thanks for the fence offer Dbl, but I think you can keep that mess.

My protected pines are really taking off this year now that they have established roots. Some of my 3 year old White pines have put on 2' of new growth this spring.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/997fieldpine3.jpg

[dbltree]

Just a reminder that you can start placing tree orders for fall and/or spring planting thru the State Forest Nursery:

Tree Orders (http://www.iowadnr.com/news/06aug/trees.html)


For any of you that have ground already enrolled in the CRP program, you should be aware that you can convert any or all of your contract to a tree planting. You would still be elgible for 50% cost share and the payments and length of the contract stays the same.

If you are interested in planting a "screen" along the road, or establishing a hardwood plot in the "back 40"...this is a great way to improve your property and get paid for it at the same time.

Many people believe that they are not able to change an existing contract so I thought I would pass this along.

You can contact your local NRCS office or the Trees for CRP Program at the Pathfinders Resource Conservation and Development office:

Ph. (641) 472-6177

jbpath@lisco.com

[dbltree]

I recently stopped by Red Fern Farm near Grandview (between Muscatine and Burlington) to pick up some chestnut trees I had ordered.

There I met owner Tom Wahl and talked trees for some time with him. I can tell you he is a wealth of information! He has a small "backyard" nursery and heads up the Iowa Chestnut Growers Co-op. as well as growing and harvesting chestnuts on his property.

Planting trees is a good thing, planting trees that are a food source for wildlife is a better thing and planting trees that can yield $2000 to $8000 per acre is a fantastic thing!:)

Tom's nursery produces chestnuts, persimmons, pawpaws, liberty apples, asian pears and hybrid hazels, all of which both humans and wildlife love.

My interest in chestnuts stems back to helping NWTF chapters establish tree plantings and blight resistant chestnuts were high on the list.

Chestnut trees (long before any of us) were the favored mast tree by most all wildlife, especially turkeys and deer. If you think deer love acorns, you ought to see how they love chestnuts!

I'm not trying to convince any of you to plant them only passing on information, because after learning more about them....I plan on planting a good many of them!

Take the time to read Toms "Chestnut Primer" and if at all possible attend the Field Day on Sept 30th at his place.

Chestnut trees grown using tree tubes and weed mats are producing (in SE Iowa) in as little as 4 years! Compare that to any oak tree...

Yields can run from 1000# to 2000#'s per acre at $2 to 4.50 a pound! If you have CRP ground it is an easy thing to convert a few or many acres to tree plantings and get cost share to boot.

Stop by and visit with Tom no matter if you need a couple trees or plan on planting the back 40.

Red Fern Farm (http://www.redfernfarm.com/)

Chestnut Primer (http://www.redfernfarm.com/primer.htm)

Red Fern Field day (http://www.redfernfarm.com/Fieldday.htm)

Cost Share Programs (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/costshare.html)

Chestnuts grow the best in tree tubes, but they must be VENTED You can use a 3/8 drill bit and drill holes in the tubes if you buy unvented.

Tree shelters (http://www.treepro.com/)

Tree tubes and mats (http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/cat_pdf/145_C56.pdf#search='tree%20mats')

Tom sells out of most of his stock by the first of the year, so I order early and send him a deposit to hold my trees.
He will have persimmons this coming spring as well.

I planted chestnuts and liberty apple trees the other day and following his advice, here's a run down on proper planting:


Check proper planting depth using pot for ref., loosen soil as far as you wish. Width isn't important but depth is.

Each tree will send a single root straight down, while all others will extend away from the tree in all directions.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/PlantingChesnuttree.jpg

Depth is extremely important! DO NOT plant deeper then the trees current growing depth. Many are tempted to plant " just a little deeper"...bad idea! <img src="http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/PlantingChesnuttree1.jpg

Fill in hole with loosened soil to the top of potted soil:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/PlantingChesnuttree2.jpg

It's best to leave a slight "dish" around the base of the tree to trap water:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/PlantingChesnuttree3.jpg

If at all possible, compost around the tree rather then amend the soil in the hole. If sphagnum moss or other amendments are used the roots will tend to curl back the hole rather then to extend out.

Worms will carry nutrients downward from the compost loosening the soil and holding moisture. Use caution not to let the compost touch the base of the tree itself.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Compost.jpg

[dbltree]

I was looking for some options regarding tree tubes. I also like the concept of growing chestnuts.



I have used the TreePro shelters (although I'm not sure "brand" matters) and I know that weed control is critical because mice love to chew thru them and make a nice little home inside...while feasting on the bark of your new seedling

If grass and weeds are killed by herbicide or weed mat then they aren't a problem. One also needs to open them some in early fall to allow the trees to harden off before severe cold weather.
Growth is amazing when they are used properly!

If you read Tom's info on chestnuts, there are varieties better suited for northern areas. We can plant less hardy types down here in the "garden belt"

[ibohunt65]

I'll second that!!

I planted 50 chestnut trees that I bought from Tom this spring and used the tree tubes and mats. About a third of the trees have already grown out the top of the 4 ft tubes. I really like the idea of planting a tree that will provide food for wildlife and an income potential every year as well. And unlike walnuts, you don't have to cut the tree down to secure good income. Cannot go wrong with chestnuts. I'll post some pics later. I'll also be planting more this next spring. They are a little pricey and require a day of hard work, but I think in the end it'll all be worth it. I burned the area first and then planted. here is the pic.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/527/medium/1400Chestnut_tree_planting_4_9_06.JPG

After planting about 4,000 trees on my place by hand over the years, I would recommend guys buying fewer trees and using tubes. The trees will grow faster and you won't lose hardly any trees to mice, voles, rabbits, or deer. If you're going to spend the time and money on the trees, spend the extra money on the tubes. You'll be much happier in the end.

[letemwalk]

I like the idea of chestnuts too and I had planned to plant them in my CRP - was informed that chestnuts were considered an "ornamental" and would not be an approved species to plant in CRP...Apparently our forestry folks think only in terms of lumber with respect to approved species...at least that was my experience/observation.

[dbltree]

I like the idea of chestnuts too and I had planned to plant them in my CRP - was informed that chestnuts were considered an "ornamental" and would not be an approved species to plant in CRP...Apparently our forestry folks think only in terms of lumber with respect to approved species...at least that was my experience/observation.



I just recieved a letter from Patfinders RC&D to all the SE Iowa Landowners that in cooperation with the NRCS in Fairfield they are offering the oppurtunity to establish trees on CRP ground. (changing your current CRP status to a hardwood planting)

Trees For CRP is a recently funded temporary program that has cost share assistance available up to 75% or $365 per acre for site prep, tree planting and maintenance.

This program or some semblenace of it is most likely available thruout Iowa but I would check with your NRCS office to be sure.

IF you have land in CRP and you are intrested in converting as little as an acre (there is no maximum amount) I would get on the band wagon while this is available.

If one has trees that need to be removed to be compliant then this is a great program that will allow you to keep it in trees!

If you want to plant a "poacher screen" along the road, add some mast producing trees in a corner of the back 40...or plant the whole darn place to trees...now is your chance!

There are minimum amounts of trees per acre and you can plant up to 50% conifers in a hardwood planting to act as "trainers".

Now... listen up people don't ever be misled into assuming or thinking that in ANY case you must MIX prairie grasses or TREES just because you are required to plant certain species!! In otherwords you can plant switchgrass one place and Big bluestem another...or Bur oak one place and red oak another...they don't have to be mixed...just the fact that a greater number of species are planted on your CRP acreage.

In the case of trees, you may not convince them to pay for chestnuts...however you can plant them in your planting. You may have to add them after the fact but most likely the planting crew will plant whatever you have for them...the NRCS just may not pay for the seedlings them selves.

You can order trees from whomever you choose and if you get trees from Red Fern Farm...I'm sure Tom will be happy to give you a receipt for "hardwood seedlings" ;)

You can specify to the forester what you want where but if you are not there when they plant...it's hard to say what you will end up with

At any rate...plant the minimum required hardwoods (oaks preferably) with red cedar trainers and add chestnuts (if you desire)as a row or a percentage of the total trees.

Here is an example...if you want to plant a "screen" along the road that will consist of 4 rows, plant 2 rows of red cedars (50% of trees) then 2 rows of 3 species of hardwoods. Purchase the minimum number of oaks and fill in with chestnuts, persimmons, paw paws etc....you can also go back and thin oaks and add other species.

The main thing is to get the CRP income, get the cost of planting and herbicide paid for as well as mowing between the rows.

Contact Lisa Phillips at (641)472-6177 ext 101 or email at detra.dettmann@ia.usda.gov

Pathfinders RC&D (ftp://ftp-fc.sc.egov.usda.gov/IA/news/Pathfinders.pdf)

More links:

IDNR links (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/crp.html)

More cost share links (http://www.iowadnr.com/foresCP3A - Hardwood tree planting.try/costshare.html)

FSA Link (http://www.fsa.usda.gov/FSA/printapp?fileName=pf_20060401_consv_en_crp33ebi0.h tml&newsType=prfactsheet)

This is what you convert to:

CP3A - Hardwood tree planting.
Mixed stand (3 or more species) of hardwood species best suited for wildlife in the area.

Don't ever assume...not even for a moment...that the people you talk to know all the rules because they change like the wind. I'm not for breaking rules...but sometimes...bending them slightly, because I know in my heart that any mast producing tree that is non-invasive...is a good thing for our environment and wildlife, regardless if it is on someones "list" or not.....

If you decide to enroll in a CRP tree planting and it matters to you which trees are planted where and how...email me for advice because I've been thru the school of hard knocks on this deal

dbltree2000@yahoo.com

[dbltree]

How does this factor in for those of us who have just re-enrolled our C.R.P. acres for another 10 years? Do you have to remove the tree planting acres from the contract? I would love to have more trees on my place but don't want to loose the C.R.P. benefits.



That's the beauty of this deal...no matter if you have 2 years or ten years left on your current contract...you can convert any portion to a tree planting.

You still get paid the same per acre rental rate as you are now, for the length of the contract.

You gain the 75% cost share to plant the trees...that's the big plus!

The only drawback is that once you do that...it can't be extended when the contract ends...of course it's very doubtful right now that we will even have a CRP program in 10 years

The Farm Bureau has already voted to lobby to end the CRP program...

[dbltree]

That was another question of mine. How many years can you have your land in C.R.P before they put you out? I will feel lucky if it stays in for the next ten I guess. I have visions of some pine groves and fruit trees up behind the pond. The "poacher screen" idea sounds great too. My ratty mullberry fence row may have to go!

Thanks for the link Dbltree, I have a letter coming from Pathfinders. P.S. what is a "trainer"?




The CRP program is very political and it exisits largely because of the efforts of groups such as Pheasants Forever (and many others).

How long it continues depends on who wins the battle between conservation groups and farm and agri-business interests.

There is simply no way to know. If you recently signed it up for another 10 years...I wouldn't hold my breath for another one...but I could be wrong as rain

A trainer is a term used to describe trees used to force timber type trees to grow straight and limbless for quality timber.

Of course foresters are thinking in terms of lumber (nothing wrong with that) while we may be thinking more in terms of wildlife.

We can have both, but we just may use our imagination to make it work more for wildlife food and cover.

Normally conifers would be spaced on either side of a hardwoods, with trees offset (imagine a checkerboard)

Such a planting might be fine for a back forty planting, but for a screen...just plant the "trainers" all on one side.

I took the time to draw up specific written "plans" on what I wanted planted where. However the planting crew just planted helter skelter what ever they happened to grab a sack full of...so anyone planning a planting for next spring, keep that in mind.

There are ways to make sure that type of thing doesn't happen...I was just foolish enough to trust people...

[dbltree]

I am excited about next springs possibilities. I will have all winter to draw up a plan, and will probably do the planting myself so I don't have to wonder what got planted where. Will they actually pay a landowner for his own labor, or do you have to be a certified tree planter?



You can do the work yourself, including spraying, mowing etc. You should be able to borrow/rent a tree planter like the one in the beginning of this post.

You'll have to check with them of course as far as all the current rules and what reciepts, etc. are required.

You can also "test" them and see what kind of trees are required, number of trees per acre (min./max)etc., etc.

After hunting season you may want to take a road trip and take a look at mine for ideas, do's and don'ts. :)

[ibohunt65]

Be sure to include Swamp white oaks. They grow fast, can handle flooding,the deer leave them alone, and a few of mine have produced acorns in only 6 years after planting.

Just make sure you protect the tree from mice and rabbits for the first two years.

Here is a photo of my first tree planting of oaks done in 1998. The swamp white oaks outgrew all the other oaks because the deer did not eat the tops of them. The pin oaks and burr oaks have struggled while the swamp white oaks have done really well.

The pictures go 2001, 2002, 2004, 2006

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/527/medium/14002001vs2002vs2004vs2006_Swamp_white_oak_planted _in_1998.JPG

[dbltree]

Good article in the paper about Red Fern Farm and chestnut trees in Iowa.

Chestnut Trees (http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006611260326)

[dbltree]

Where would someone pic up these tree tubes.
I need about 3000 of them for the trees I just planted last spring.

Havent had hardly any problems with stuff eating them off because they are very well protected by weeds at this point. But the snow hasnt fallen yet and food isnt that scarce.


Red Fern Farm has links to several tree tube products and thoughts about them.

I have used tree pro brand myself with good results, but there are many options.

Red Fern Farm (http://www.redfernfarm.com/)

Tree shelters (http://www.treepro.com/)

Using Trees Shelters on Oak Hardwoods (http://web2.msue.msu.edu/bulletins/Bulletin/PDF/E2584.pdf)

Tree tubes and mats (http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/cat_pdf/145_C56.pdf#search='tree%20mats')

Tubex® Tree Shelters (http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/View_Catalog_Page.asp?mi=2624)

Plantra Tree Tubes (http://www.plantra.com/)

ItascaGreenhouse Tubes and Supplies (http://www.itascagreenhouse.com/page21.html)

Tree Tube Pics (http://www.putnamwetlands.com/tree_tubes.htm)

Tree Protection Supplies (http://www.treeprotection.org/solutions.html)

Treessentials Company (http://www.snapngrow.com/)

Compare Tubes (http://www.dnr.state.md.us/forests/download/treeshelters.pdf)

Remember to use perforated tubes and many drill addtional holes with a 5/16 to 3/8 drill bit to allow hardening off in the fall.

In solid tubes trees will stay "warm and cozy" and then end up being killed when a sudden severe cold spell hits.

Check back a page or two for thoughts from others on using tube shelters also...great tool for protecting and enhancing tree growth! :)

[dbltree]

On the subject of fencing I took a few pics the other day...

The little Red Cedars are tough little buggers! I sprayed around them once and then they "got forgot"

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/1styrRedCedar.jpg

they sure do turn red this time of year! I walked the rows and I don't think hardly a single one died

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RCinDec1styr.jpg

They can "take a lickin' and keep on tickin'"

On my place at least, deer never bother them nor do rabbits

Can't say the same for my Norway Spruce

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Norwaysprucewdamage.jpg

This is an 8 yr old Sawtooth Oak

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TrashedTree12-27.jpg

You can see why I say that fruit trees may have to be fenced quite possibly forever, depending on the size of the trunk.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Chickenwiretreecage.jpg

It is a bit of irony that that the very animals we seek to attract would in turn wreak such havoc on the food sources we provide for them

[150 Class]

I enjoy the trees most of all. They will provide for wildlife for the rest of my life, and if the dozers stay away, for long after I'm gone.



I do agree with this. The sooner you start, the more you will be able to see down the road what good you have done. Kids, get your parents to help do some of this. Parents and grandparents, take your kids and grandkids out and plant some trees. Seedlings from the state forestry delivered to your door are a great way to get started. Planting mast producing trees from seed works well too (such as planting that tiny acorn that may one day turn into a majestic oak).

I know it has been posted before in this thread but the link to the DNR seedlings is attached here again.

DNR Tree Order Form (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/orderform2.html)

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I know it has been posted before in this thread but the link to the DNR seedlings is attached here again.
DNR Tree Order Form (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/orderform2.html) </div></div>



Preparation for spring tree planting should be underway if your planning on putting new trees in the ground this year. IDNR Private Assistance (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/private.html)

Creating wildlife habitat (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/wildlife.html)

One thing to consider when ordering seedlings is that larger seedlings often suffer higher mortality and lower survivability then younger smaller seedlings. Often people assume that older seedlings will do better but more then often this is not the case.

A friend of mine who is signing up for the CRP tree planting program said “well I have until June to get them planted”….that may be true, but seedlings will arrive in early April depending on weather and soil conditions. Nurseries will prepare dormant seedlings for shipment asap in the spring and you must be prepared to plant them when they arrive.

New seedlings can be “heeled” in temporarily by spreading the seedlings out (cut the strings on the bunches) in a trench and cover them with soil until you are ready to plant.

Still, the seedlings should be planted as soon as possible after arrival and before they break dormancy.

It’s also important to spray herbicides before trees break dormancy to prevent injury to trees. Most large scale plantings will require “over the top” spraying right after planting. Established plantings should also be sprayed in early spring before grass and weeds start to grow and trees are still dormant.

In the case of smaller plantings, a backpack sprayer can be used and spray directed around the base of the seedling rather then over the top which allows one to spray a little later in the spring.

Be prepared by understanding which herbicides are best for you and having them on hand by late March. If your planting by hand then band spraying could be done before planting but mechanical planting will disturb to much soil requiring spraying after planting.

There are a number of options when it comes to herbicides but one thing is certain…if you want high survival rates and fast growth of your new tree planting, spend the extra dollars for weed control!

Keep in mind you will be band spraying each row 3-4 feet wide, so some math is required to come up with “an acre” of trees. 3’ x 1320’ (1/4 mile)=3960 x 4 rows = 15,840 sq. ft.

43,560 sq. ft per acre means that in this case the required herbicide is little more then a 1/3 of an acre! When a herbicide costs $40-80 per acre it is actually covering an awful lot of trees!!

Rates per acre vary depending on soil type with heavier clay type soils requiring higher rates then sandy loamier soils.

Princep 4L (http://www.syngentacropprotection-us.com/pdf/labels/SCP526AL58M0706.pdf.pdf) (simazine) is a fairly safe pre-emergent herbicide that can be mixed with other herbicides such as Surflan and Oust. It is applied at 2-4 quarts per acre. Costs $9-18 per acre.

Oust Extra (http://www2.dupont.com/Land_Management/en_US/products_services/herbicides/Oust_XP_herbicide.html) (sulfometuron + metsulfuron) is applied at 4-5 ounces per acre an acts as both a pre-and post emergent. Costs run $40-50 per acre. Oust is a Restricted Use Pesticide requiring a Pesticide Applicators license to purchase.

Fusilade (http://www.syngentaprofessionalproducts.com/pdf/labels/SCP1084AL1A1203n.pdf) (fluazifop-P butyl) is applied at 16-24 ounces per acre and runs $12-16 per acre. Fusilade is a post-emergent herbicide that works best on actively growing grasses. It is safe for a very long list of trees and shrubs.

Surflan AS (http://www.upi-usa.com/files/Surflan%20AS%20Specialty%20Specimen%20Rev%2011-04.pdf) (oryzalin) is a pre-emergent herbicide that is also safe for a long list of trees and shrubs. Apply at 3-4 quarts per acre at a cost of $75 to 100 per acre.

Pendulum (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld3HA010.pdf) herbicide is not effective against turfgrasses such as fescue but can be combined with Oust for instance for season long control and is safe for a large number of trees and shrubs.

Herbicides (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=177591&amp;Main=176924#Post17 7591)

This is a must read! IDNR Weed Control Guide (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/pdf/weeds.pdf)

Iowa Tree Planting (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/iowtrees/index.html)

A few things to consider....

Red Cedars while not the prettiest tree, has one of the highest survival rates in tree plantings. It will provide the greatest benefits in a wildlife oriented planting as far as shelter, bedding area and even a food source for birds, of any conifer that one can plant.

If your planning a hardwood planting, look for fast growing hybrid oaks and chestnuts that can provide mast in as little as 4-6 years.

Your shrub selection should be native species that are not considered invasive. Natives (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/whyplant.html)

IDNR Shrub list (http://www.iowadnr.gov/forestry/catalog.html)

Other seedling sources:

Coldstream Farms (http://www.coldstreamfarm.net/)

Red Fern Farm (http://www.redfernfarm.com/) Chestnuts, apples, pears, persimmons and paw paws

Oikos Tree Crops (http://oikostreecrops.com/store/home.asp?cookiecheck=yes&amp;) Hybrid oaks

[TimberPig]

Tons of good info there from Dbltree. I've only planted maybe 4,500 or so trees in the last 4 years so I'm no pro, but here are some things I have observed. Most of this has already been covered in the last 4 pages, but I'm in the mood to type I guess.

1. You simply cant plant them and forget them. Doesnt work, with the possible exception of Red Cedar which are just plain tough. If you cant devote a fair amount of time to trees for the first 4 or 5 years, plant NWSG instead and you'll be happier.

2. Herbicide definately makes a difference in both survival and growth rate. Unless you use the high dollar stuff, you will probably need to spray twice during the season to get really decent control.

3. If you have many deer at all, no, make that ANY deer at all, you need to protect the trees in some way. The most deer I have ever saw on my property at one time is 16, average is 6-8 per day. Still, you cant find a one of those 4,500 trees which has not been effected by deer, and they have outright killed many of them. I wish I had used tree tubes for the hardwoods. I really like white pine, but they are deer candy and its a waste of time and money to plant them unless you can fence them. The local county conservation board told me they have given up on white pine for that reason and strictly plant cedars now. Fence them and you'll be ok. Norway Spruce suffer a little less damage.

4. Deer damage does not seem to be detrimental to my shrubs (Red Dogwoods), even though they browse them heavily. The Plums and Nanking Cherry dont seem to be bothered much by deer.

5. Mechanical planting is the only way to do large numbers, but if your only doing a few hundred you will have much better survival by hand planting.

6. Mechanical planting is very difficult in rough areas and sod doesnt help either. Crop fields work MUCH better for mechanical planting because the soil will close up better around the roots keeping them from drying out.

7. I'd rather plant 100 trees and protect and care for them well than plant 1,000 and hope for the best. I thought I could plant so many the deer wouldnt be a factor, I was wrong. Despite the 1,000's of acres of crops surrounding them they still ate the trees.

8. Mark you seedlings with flagging tape or some other means. If you dont get herbicide on early enough, you'll have a hell of a time finding those green seedlings in a sea of green weeds w/o some sort of markers. Makes mowing much easier too.

9. I believe Poast herbicide can be applied over deciduous trees for grass control, but check the label.

10. I wish I had just put down weed mats 4 years ago. In the long run it would have been cheaper and definately alot less work. Some of my trees are in the 5th year and they still havent outgrown the weed competition.

11. If your going to borrow a tree planter from a local agency, get on the list as early as possible. You dont want thousands of seedlings setting around in warm weather because you are waiting your turn with the planter. If you do have to wait a long time look for cold storage. I knew some folks at the local beverage distributor and a little begging got me a place to house several thousand trees in their refridgerated warehouse for a couple weeks. Use your imagination and you can find a cold place to store them if you have to wait.

[dbltree]

Quote:
9. I believe Poast herbicide can be applied over deciduous trees for grass control, but check the label.



Thanks alot TP...I just spent dayyyssss "researching" Poast for trees (ok...at least a 1/2 hour :)

I posted all the confusing details in the Herbicides (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=176924&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) post.

Long story short BASF tried to pull a fast one by marketing Poast as Poast Plus with different labeling....to make more money of course.

Reading the Poast label shows that it indeed can be used on most trees, some even when leaved out but conifers it's safer before hand.

Remember Poast (Plus or not) is a grass herbicide and will not control broadleaves. Grass however is normally the tough one to kill.

Use Poast when grass is growing well...do NOT mow first.

Poast Label (http://www.greenbook.net/docs/LABEL/L26409.PDF)

BSAF Poast (http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Product.jsp?REG_NR=00796900058&DIST_NR=007969)

Poast Plus Label (http://www.igin.com/chemicals/PDF/poastplus.pdf)

Select 2-EC with crop oil has proven to be far more effective then Poast Plus on grasses and can also be used on tree plantings.

Select 2-EC (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld837005.pdf)

The label does suggest that it is safer to try to apply it around the base of trees versus over the top orinjury can result.

Just another option in the war on weeds

[turkeyriver]

This message is aimed at anyone considering a large tree planting. I have tried it all, seedlings , tubes, cages, weed mats, hand planting, machine planting into sod and grain fields and have come to one conclusion.The absolute best way is a direct nut and seed planting. In fact, it's about the only way our forester recommends. If you don't know the process, you either start with a year of roundup spraying on sod or CRP or a crop field. The ground is plowed or worked just like a crop field in the fall. Then you spread the walnuts acorns ash or whatever you want and disk them in. You MUST spend the money to spray the first couple years. I have 3 year old oaks over my head, walnuts and ash taller than that. Tubing your young oaks is a good idea. You just pick the best ones in the seeding and scatter your tubes evenly. Believe it or not, trees grow faster from seed than transplanted as seedlings, unless its on your lawn, but thats not a natural setting. You don't get that immediate satisfaction of planting seedlings but you will actually have timber quicker with a nut seeding, and it won't be in rows so it looks more natural. Just a thought if you are in it for the long haul. The really beautiful part is that if you control the weeds for 2-3 yrs with spraying, after that the trees shade out everthing else. No more mowing down each row!!

[dbltree]

The really beautiful part is that if you control the weeds for 2-3 yrs with spraying, after that the trees shade out everthing else. No more mowing down each row!!





Other then Roundup...what did you use for herbicide after the seedlings sprouted?

Did you collect your own acorns?

I know some people have had success planting that way so just curious about some of the details
Some links to direct seeding:

Planting Trees From Seed (http://www.forestry.iastate.edu/topics/woodland_mgmt/plantseed.html)

Direct seeding of native hardwood trees (http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/treecare/maintenance/collectingseed.html)

Starting Burr Oak Trees from Seed. (http://entomology.wisc.edu/treenuts/parent.html)

Growing Oak Trees from Seed (http://osuextra.okstate.edu/pdfs/F-5031web.pdf)

[turkeyriver]

Sorry, I couldn't get the site to come back up till now. Hope they get this fixed. To answer your ?, the first year the seeds are sprouting, the only herbicide you can use is Prowl( also goes by other names but it's that orange-yellow stuff that stains all the tanks it is in). Thats why it is VERY IMPORTANT to start out with clean ground,i.e. Roundup killed sod or crop ground. After the trees are up the 2nd year you can use all the over the top stuff mentioned here. I had a professional forestry service spray mine with a 4-wheeler so I don.t know what he had in there exactly, but I know it was a 3-way combination. I also hand sprayed some thistle patches later in the year with Transline. It did a good job on them. One thing to remember. If you have some thin spots and want to plant more trees, you MUST plant seedlings. The 2nd year herbicide will kill most trees growing from seed the 2nd year. The exception to that rule seems to be ash. Some ash can come that 2nd year. I'll try to post some pics of my seedings after they green up this spring. If you really want to regenerate forest, this is the only way to go. If you want to talk to the guy who sort of pioneered this procedure, his name is John Olds and he runs One-Stop Forestry in Postville Ia. He was in on the first attempt to do this over 10 years ago. Phone 563-864-3586. John has a network of seed collectors and the price varies by species and availability. I collected as much seed as i could and bought the rest. Ash is the best "trainer" for the walnut,oak cherry to make them grow straight and tall. Don't know if that ash borer will change that. By the way, the goal here is to get way more trees growing than a mature stand could tolerate. In later years you will have to thin the stand to allow the best trees to mature. Something for your kids to worry about!

[dbltree]

Just a reminder if you haven't ordered your seedlings yet...

The State Forest nursery is starting to sell out of some items: Order Form (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/orderform2.html)

Red Fern Farm (http://www.redfernfarm.com/) is sold out of apple and pear trees until fall (which is also a great time to plant) You can reserve fall seedlings anytime soon!

Cold Stream Farm (http://www.coldstreamfarm.net/) still has a pretty good selection but they too will be selling out of some items soon.

Oikos Tree Crops (http://oikostreecrops.com/store/home.asp) is a great place to get the unusual and more rare types. I like their hybrid oaks and chestnuts in paper pots!

[dbltree]

What is the best herbacide to use for first year planted red cedars? I am planting 500 and just want to make sure i maintain them properly,



You can spray just about anything approved for trees on, around or over red cedars if they are not actively growing, atrazine, simazine, poast, select, Oust can all be used safely.

Once small seedlings of any kind have broke dormancy and start to leaf out or produce "candles" as with conifers, it's safer to spray the ground around them or you may severely injure or kill the seedlings.

Previously in this thread there is a list of herbicides for trees many of which are much safer and easier to procur then Oust...but I'm used to using Oust and am satisfied with the results.

Oust comes like this:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OustXPmeasure.jpg

With it's own measuring cup that leaves no chance of spilling any:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OustXP.jpg

In my case I mixed one ounce in 3 gallons of water along with some roundup:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OneOunce.jpg

I sprayed my rows first and then planted....in this case chestnuts.

Please be sure to keep the roots of your new seedlings protected from drying winds and air period!

Keep them wrapped in a bag with some moist soil medium and then transfer to a bucket or planting bag with a little water to keep the roots moist.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Chestnutsandplantingbag.jpg

A planting bag works very well for ease of planting as well as protecting the roots.

Dry roots = dead seedling!!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Plantingbag.jpg

The chestnut roots were too large to use a dibble bar so we had to use shovels.

Make sure you hold the seedling at the proper ht so you plant it the same as it's previous growing depth.

Do not allow the roots to form a "J"....so make the hole deep enough and spread the roots if they are large.

Firm the soil well around the need seedling...air is it's enemy!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AirTite.jpg

This is last years nanyberry planted with a dibbel bar, already leafed out and growing.

DO NOT spray most herbicides over the top of these growing seedlings unless the lable clearly states it's alright to do so!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NannyBerry.jpg

This Red Oiser Dogwood has not budded or leafed out yet so seedlings in this state should be fine for over the top application of herbicide.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RedOiserDogwood.jpg

I've got 200 red cedars and assorted shrubs to plant today and then I will carefully spray around last years seedlings, covering them if need be.

I sprayed a couple small wild cedars and some small shingle oaks with Oust yesterday...dousing them down good to test the limits.

Oust is meant for over the top arial spraying of large forested areas and this is where the danger of damage lies.

I hope to test some of the other hebicides this year as well to compare the residual action and if there is damage or injury from any of them.

[dbltree]

If you have a bunch of small tree seedlings like these red cedars my son and I planted:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/25inabunch.jpg

It's easier and faster to use a dibble bar: Dibble bar (http://www.naturehills.com/new/product/accessories_productpage.aspx?proid=213)

Ours are homemade...not much to them if your handy with a welder.

Step on them to drive a hole:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Dibblebar.jpg

Place the roots of the seedling in the hole using care to make sure the roots are not in a J form.

I slide the hole seedling in...and then pull it up to proper planting depth.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Plantingseedling.jpg

Then drive the bar into the soil next to the hole and close the opening:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Closehole.jpg

Make sure you step on the remaining hole with your heel to close the opening and firm the soil tight around the seedling.

Follow the steps in this link:

Planting for Success (http://extensionforestry.tamu.edu/forestry/pineplanting/chapter_6/6-2.htm)

A dibble bar will make what can be a bit of a "job"...a little less so.

Couple links to some tree herbicides in small affordable quanities where one doesn't need several gallons:

Surflan (http://www.pestproducts.com/herbicides/surflan.htm)

Hy-Yield (generic Poast) (http://www.elawngarden.com/item.php?itemID=206)

[dbltree]

Just an update on the Oust/Roundup...

so far no ill effects:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oustweedkill.jpg

I've been mixing one ounce in my 3 gallon back pack sprayer.

I sprayed before planting new seedlings and around dormant trees in early April.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/treesSprayedwithOust.jpg

I'll keep an eye on them and update how the seedlings do.

[dbltree]

More updates on Oust treated tree plantings...still no problems that I can see but sure does take care of any weed growth!

Chestnut seedlings:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ChestnutOusttreated.jpg

Norway Spruce:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Norwayspruceousttreated.jpg

Red Osier Dogwood:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RedDogwoodandOust.jpg

Nanneyberry:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NanneyberryandOust.jpg

Untreated:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Untreated.jpg

As far as I can see...fears of killing seedlings when a backpack sprayer over dormant tees or around the base of budded trees are unfounded.

[dbltree]

Few late season pics of the Oust herbicide treated tree plantings. Weed growth starts to encroach from the edges (which is why mowing helps) otherwise weed control is good and no seedling mortality.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oustendofsummer.jpg

Chestnut/Oust

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Chesnutfirstsummer.jpg

Oak and Oust

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OakinOust.jpg

Nannyberry/Oust

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NannyberryinOust.jpg

Red Oiser dogwood and Oust

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RedOiserDogwoodinOust.jpg

I did notice that NWSG seems impervious to it...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WSGinOustTreatedarea.jpg

If anyone has pictures/thoughts on whatever types of tree herbicides you used...please share. There are many options and it's always good to compare.

Fall is a great time to prepare for next springs planting by using a residual herbicide such as Oust and Roundup to kill strips for next springs planting.

Makes planting much easier!

[dbltree]

I took a couple more pics of the Oust herbicide treated seedlings just before cold weather set in this past fall.

This is a small Red Cedar with some stemmy broadleaf growth around it but not enought to inhibit growth as with a heavy mat of brome grass or fescue.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RedCedarOustherbicide.jpg

Just a little idea what a treated planting might look like late in the year depending on the type and amount of herbicide.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Ousttreated.jpg

It's not likely to be perfectly "clean" but the idea is to hold back competition from weeds and grasses. Keep in mind that Red Cedars commonly "sprout" up in CRP grasses across Iowa but growth will be much faster if they don't compete for soil moisture, nutrients and sunlight.

Remember it's way past time to be ordering seedlings for spring 2008 planting! Better get on the stick before suppliers are sold out!

IDNR Seedling Order Form (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/orderform.html)

Coldstream Farm Nursery (http://www.coldstreamfarm.net/)

Red Fern Farm Nursery (http://www.redfernfarm.com/)

Oikos Tree Crops (http://oikostreecrops.com/store/home.asp?cookiecheck=yes&)

Morse Nursery (http://www.morsenursery.com/)

There are many many others of course...if you have a favorite seedling source please share it with us. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Skully]

Anybody have advice for trees/bushes that could be planted for thermal cover in riverbottom ground? Obviously needs to be able to withstand moist soil and even occasional, short term flooding. I've thought of feathering some edges but I'd also like to create some windbreaks in various places. Many of the hills in the area are north facing and I need some hideaway spots for this extreme cold weather.




Willow stands are great cover in moist, flood-prone areas. Several of the river-bottom properties I hunt have these and they harbor all types of wildlife while the more open maple bottoms are bare and less attractive during the very cold winter months.

[dbltree]

Anybody have advice for trees/bushes that could be planted for thermal cover in riverbottom ground? Obviously needs to be able to withstand moist soil and even occasional, short term flooding. I've thought of feathering some edges but I'd also like to create some windbreaks in various places. Many of the hills in the area are north facing and I need some hideaway spots for this extreme cold weather.



Most of the dogwoods such as Red Oiser, Silky and Grey will all do great in low moist soils and make great bedding cover along with willows.

You can see them and more information in the State Forest Nursery Nursery Catalog (http://www.iowadnr.gov/forestry/catalog.html)

Iowa Tree Planting (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/iowtrees/index.html)

Forested Riparian Buffers (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/riparian.html)

[dbltree]

Most of you have already ordered your seedlings which will be arriving in a few weeks, but you still have options regarding spacing of your new planting.

Another post asked the question " can cedars be to thick"?

Here are some links, pictures and ideas to help you determine the best spacing for you and your situation.

Iowa Tree Planting (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/iowtrees/index.html)

Planning Your Tree Planting (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM1676.pdf)

Tree Planting in Minnesota (http://www.myminnesotawoods.umn.edu/options/opti_planting.html)

Tree Planting in Michigan (http://forestry.msu.edu/extension/ExtDocs/treeplnt.htm)

Tree Planting in New York State (http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/9394.html)

Tree Planting in Wisconsin (http://dnr.wi.gov/forestry/Nursery/GeneralInfo/planning.htm)

These links contain many spacing charts to give you ideas on how many trees per acre you will end up with and planning/planting advice.

CRP Hardwood plantings will require that you plant hardwoods...right?? Ahhh...but they allow you to plant conifer "trainers" as in the picture below.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Conifertrainers.jpg

The trainers are meant to "force" the hardwoods to grow tall and "limbless" to some extent for better timber quality. Each of you have to determine what you priority is when planning your hardwood tree planting.

Is it for timber or widllife...or both? Many foresters will try to encourage black walnuts in your planting however they have little or no wildlife value compared to oaks or chestnuts.

The conifer "trainers" are usually planted in a criss cross pattern but you can plant them in rows in the planting. I planted mine 2 rows of hardwoods and 4 rows of conifers for instance.

Cost share and payment was the same but I wanted the thermal value and bedding area value form the conifers being planted together. I also planted 100% oaks at the time for hardwoods (keep in mind there are dozens if not more varieties of oaks and hybrid oaks)

Check with your forester on the basic requirements and then request that the tree planter plant the conifers according to YOUR plan.

In Iowa Red Cedars are IMO the best suited conifer for whitetail bedding and general cover areas. All other types of conifers will need long term fencing to protect them from bucks in the fall.

If at all possible plant red cedars on south facing slopes, along roads as a poacher screen and in your hardwood plantings too add cover adjacent to the future food source provided by the oaks.

Tree plantings can always be thinned if needed as it's impossible to predict mortality in newly planted seedlings.

Deer will use your cedar plantings more if they are not planted to thickly and are suurounded by grass and blackberry thickets:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000744.jpg

These are spaced fairly well but on a north facing slope which remains cold and snow covered.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000745.jpg

They love the thermal cover and protection but also prefer the open travel lanes...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000746.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000747.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000749.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000750.jpg

Mange your cedar thickets so that you always maintain some semi-open grassy areas forbedding and browsing.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000751.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000752.jpg

Ok...enough with the cedar pictures... ;)

Just remember them in your plantings becuase your forester most likely will consider them a pest rather the a habitat enhancement.

Carefully plan your spacing and planting plans in a way that will best enhance your hunting property and your ability to hunt those plantings in the future.

No one is to old to plant trees...it's a legacy you leave behind and make this world a little greener to boot! :)

[dbltree]

Won't be long and seedlings will be arriving!


Remember to heel new seedlings in until you can get them planted and keep them in a bag or pail with enough water to keep roots moist until planted.

Bare root seedlings will dry out in minutes with a light breeze blowing on them and you start off by planting a ...

dead tree... ;)

Get em in the ground ASAP and share some pictures with us :)

[LoessHillsArcher]

Pheasants Forever is helping us with a bunch of cedars, going to try a few pines, and a bunch of shrubs. We'll be sure to do our best with the first planting and take some pictures! One question for you Paul, what are Green Ash good for looking at it from a wildlife point of view? We went through our land this weekend and we have a bunch of them and they seem to take up a bunch of good ground some oaks could be growing on. I heard they make great fire wood. thanks in advance

[JNRBRONC]

I'm not Paul nor pretend to be, but with the Emerald ash borer knocking on our door, I don't intend to plant any (more) ash. If you do have some, I hate to be pessimistic but my gut feeling is they will be firewood sooner than later.

[dbltree]

with the Emerald ash borer knocking on our door, I don't intend to plant any (more) ash. If you do have some, I hate to be pessimistic but my gut feeling is they will be firewood sooner than later.



I agree with Randy...planting ash IMO would be a lost cause...

[LoessHillsArcher]

Well we're just winding up our first year of tree planting, mostly shrubs from Pheasants Forever this spring. Definately a learning process and tip #1 prepare the ground the fall before if possible, we didn't and are paying for it. We've got it down to an assembly line sort of...
Keep the trees in a bucket of water to keep the roots wet
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/100_0640-1.jpg
We did get to take a mower and knock down the grass, helped to see where we planted
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/100_0641-1.jpg
One guy take a spade and knock off the roots of the live grass..here is where fall prep would have helped
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/100_0642.jpg
Another grab the dirt auger and get to work!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/100_0643-1.jpg
Then when we get them done we flagged them off which helps for future spraying, more trees coming this weekend!

[dbltree]

Definately a learning process and tip #1 prepare the ground the fall before if possible, we didn't and are paying for it.




Great advice! I had to learn all that the hard way too ;)

Looks like your gonna "git er done" one way or the other!

Glad to see your keeping those roots moist, drying winds can kill bareroot seedlings in short order. Just remember not to leave them in water over night as they will drown. Heel them in until ready to plant again.

Thanks for adding to this thread! :)

[dbltree]

Being that they'll be out of the ground for 3-4 days, i'm hoping the roots aren't dried out by the time they get here. I'll water them down, when they arrive and get to planting asap.



Normally bare root stock is shipped in a bag inside a plastic bag full of some type of mossy medium to keep the roots moist. They can last a week like that if kept cool.

I like to get them out as soon as they arrive and then heel them in someplace like your garden for instance. Some soft dirt makes it easy to make a trench, spread out the seedlings and then re-cover and water. The can last weeks like that allowing you to plant some each night after work or wait until a weekend.

Just remember "air" is a roots worst enemy! Don't just cover them but pack them also. Plant in the same manner...make sure the roots aren't just covered but the soil firmly packed.

This thread already mentions it but use some care not to -J- the roots but try to tuck them straight down. Not always possible but that's what works the best for the seedling.

Good luck!

[dbltree]

There is a lot of herbicide information if you read back thru this thread but here are some great links just to bring the subject back to the forefront.

Just remember that some herbicides are ok for evergreens but not other trees so always always read the labels!

Effective Herbicide Use in Christmas Tree Plantations (http://forestry.msu.edu/extension/ExtDocs/plntatn.htm)

This link is an excellent list!

Timing of Herbicide Application (http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/forestry/FH/PDF/TimingofHerbicideApplicationforCommonlyPlantedWisc onsinTrees.pdf)

Herbicides registered for Wisconsin tree planting (http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=herbicides+for+tree+planting&fr=b1ie7&SpellState=n-1466303861_q-WvpUCftP1a6CHrxNDsw0uQAAAA%40%40&u=www.dnr.state.wi.us/forestry/FH/PDF/HerbicidesRegisteredforTreePlanting2006.pdf&w=herbicides+herbicide+tree+planting+plant+plants&d=VTPZoPH_Qmp4&icp=1&.intl=us)

Weed control in tree plantings (http://www.weeds.iastate.edu/mgmt/2002/treeplantings.htm)

Those will get you started or at least confused! :)

[Joey Rott]

I received the package of trees yesterday. It's amazing, the amount of tree's that can be crammed into one box. Everything was packaged real well, and still very moist. The trees looked great, with full & long roots. Most of the 4-8" Spruce tree's I ordered where actually 10-18", with lots of them being in the 20-24" range...which was a nice suprise.

My wife and I were able to plant about 175 trees in almost 3 hours last evening. We'll finish up the rest tonight & Saturday. The weather is misty, humid, and cloudy...perfect planting weather. I'll post some pictures next week.


Here are a few pics of the trees I planted this Spring. The recent rain has been great.

http://hunting.net/fieldjournal/fieldjournal_detail.aspx?nID=934

I checked them out yesterday, and noticed that bugs are eating many of the leaves on the deciduous trees. Maybe I missed the mention of it on this forum, but would you recommend spraying insecticides on the trees? And if so, are there any in particular you recommend, that I might be able to pick up locally(home depot, walmart, orschelins, etc)? Thanks

[dbltree]

bugs are eating many of the leaves on the deciduous trees.



Now that's something I don't recall ever having a problem with?

I would think any horticulture type spray for insects would work. I have also seen people using dish soap mixed heavily with water sprayed on garden produce that they didn't want chemicals on.

Perhaps someone else may have dealt with this problem and could better answer your question but let us know what you end up using.

You might also consider checking with your local extension service office or a state forestor if you have them in your area.

Your plantings look great! :)

[Fishbonker]

I used fruit tree spray on my persimmons last year and it worked fine. In the past I have used regualr old garden spray from Earl May. I think they call it "Eight" because some other company already had "Sevin". Actually I think there is more of a difference between the two. Sevin is a carbaryl and I think Eight is a perithroid, not sure though. I'm not sure what the active ingredient in the fruit tree spray is, but it killed the crap outta the aphids that were sucking them dry.

The 'Bonker

[SaskGuy]

You may want to try malathion (sp?) on the deciduous trees. I've used it here on my apple and birch trees with some success.

I'm not expert by any strecth but good choice on the hybrid poplar, they grow in a hurry here so there I'm imgaing they'll do even better. Again, I'm no expert, but if you're planning on doing some more next year and you want to try some more conifers, give Scots pine a look. I planted some, they grow alot faster than spruce trees tend to and are,...well, pretty to look at as well. Trees are definately fun to play around with, when we bought our 20 acres, 18 were solid timber, I immediately began hammering different types onto the open 2 acres. Soil type has only allowed success with a couple different pines, spruce, birch, willow and a few different fruit trees. I wish I was going to be alive to see how my trees look like when they are finally fully mature.

I read your journal entry, good write up. Though it is work, monkeying around on your own property to make it more beautiful and habitable to wildlife is definately fun.

[Joey Rott]

I went into town over the weekend, and even though there wasn't much of a selection, I was able to find an insecticide that was for trees & gardens. It had the active ingredient of pemethrin in it, which is the same stuff I've always used on my hunting clothes with good success. We'll see how it works.

Thanks for the recommendations on the tree's. I tried a few other varieties as well in groups of 5-10, moreso as a test to see what grew good and what didn't. I'll make another order next year and try some more types as well.

[dbltree]

I tried a few other varieties as well in groups of 5-10, moreso as a test to see what grew good and what didn't



Great idea before you invest in thousands only to find out they don't do well in your area or on your soil types.

This is some High Bush Cranberry on my place on some rich, moist low ground. It does "ok" on the higher ground but has never reached the height that these have. All were planted the same day, same year, same farm...just different soil type.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/HighbushCranberry6-1.jpg

I planted some nannyberry and red osier dogwood two years ago side by side on the same type of moist low ground...the dogwoods have not survived while the nannyberries are thriving.

Should have been ideal conditions for the dogwood so I don't know if it was the seedlings or what?

12 years ago we planted thousands of sargent crabapples at the same time as the highbush cranberry, autumn olive and other trees.

Not a single crabapple is there today...again I'm not sure why but it pays to "test" a few before one goes gungho planting thousands.

[Joey Rott]

Good info. Here are some of my results.

All of my tree's are virtually on the same type of soil, which is a lowland area that used to be pasture many years ago. Like you, I planted 5 dogwoods, and made sure they were watered once or twice a week, but none of them grew.

Another odd one...I ordered 25 Colorado Blue Spruce and 250 Norway Spruce. All of the Blue Spruces are alive, while I have about an 80% survival rate on the Norways so far. I know the success would've been better if I was able to get water to them more often but it's odd there was a such a difference. I also have 5 Red Pines right next to the Blue Spruces. Only 1 is still alive.

I had 5 quaking aspen which were doing great, but for some reason in the past 2 week, 4 of the 5 lost the new leaves and are wilting. I'm not sure what happened, as they were watered twice a week.

I have 100 Red Oaks, 25 Sawtooth Oaks, and 25 English Oaks which were all planted intermittenly together. Most of the Reds haven't done anything yet, where majority of the Sawtooth and English Oaks have leaves. Maybe the Reds will eventually start to grow...only time will tell.

[dbltree]

Last weekend I was in town and went to the Pamida store. They were having a tree sale where everything was 90% off. So I loaded the SUV with as many tree's I could handle. I got Redbuds, Oaks, and mostly 2 different types of crabapples. The tree's ranged from 4-8' tall, and many of the crabapples tree were loaded full of apples.

I don't really have any experience with crabapples, but I assumed the deer would like them. Does anyone have any experiences with them?

I bought 16 for $13 so I figured, they'd be a "pretty" aditional, if nothing else.


They make better screens and small wildlife feed but deer will eat them. They will also thrash them to death so don't forget the fencing!



Great time of year to p/u trees they are trying to get rid of for sure.

[Sligh1]

Went to NRCS today, applied for funding on about 5 acres of tree plantings, like the idiot I can be- I'll again do them by hand (someday I might learn my lesson). I am going to buy a big thing of Oust, it's about $475, unless I know of a good place to get by the oz?

I am thinking of doing planting next spring as I try and rest in the fall and hunt. I have never used OUST, could I spray either fall or spring before I put in seedlings and be ok? Also, could I obviously spray and direct seed acorns, walnuts, other nuts, etc.??? LASTLY, can I spray over seedlings I put in THIS SPRING (spray them next spring) before they bud out, say in March-ish?

You'd make fun of me driving down the road in the fall, stopping by "good" trees that I constantly "scan" for to pick up their acrons, nuts, berries, etc. I can tell you where in the state the good Persimmons, acorns, etc are!:)

*Bring a box, broom, etc with you if you dare look dorky like me.

[dbltree]

I am going to buy a big thing of Oust, it's about $475, unless I know of a good place to get by the oz?

I am thinking of doing planting next spring as I try and rest in the fall and hunt. I have never used OUST, could I spray either fall or spring before I put in seedlings and be ok? Also, could I obviously spray and direct seed acorns, walnuts, other nuts, etc.??? LASTLY, can I spray over seedlings I put in THIS SPRING (spray them next spring) before they bud out, say in March-ish?






Townsend Chemical Division (http://www.townsendchemical.com/index.htm) Will sell it by the ounce but last I knew Oust is a restricted use pesticide in Iowa...so ship it to a friend in another state...don't ask me how I know

I bought 10 ounces and still have 9 I think so let's see how much you need before you order any.

IMO..the best time/way is to spray Oust and Roundup in the fall to prepare for next springs seedlings. Spray in October and you'll have nice clean strips to plant into next spring.

Oust is pretty potent stuff so the residual will last nearly two years and it is possible to kill seedlings if you "overdose" them after planting.

Read all the restrictions and warnings but you can apply before budding next spring or around the base even now.

If the correct amount is applied evenly then I'm sure you could direct seed but things like that I prefer to try a small area. Direct seeding 10 acres of oak acorns that you swept up only to kill them with a herbicde would be..."not good"

[dbltree]

Yes, RUP, not a problem though.
I know I read something somewhere before BUT, do you recommend the Oust Extra or Oust XP?
THANKS!





I use XP but I'm not sure it really makes a bunch of difference

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OustXPmeasure.jpg

[dbltree]

Would you dare to spray trees with 2,4-d OR is that a big no-no?



That would be a big 10-4 on the NO-NO

2-4D kills broadleafs including trees.

Grass herbicides are pretty safe for most trees but broadleaf herbicides are another story

[Sligh1]

With the Oust XP, I know I have seen you do some acreage calculations (total of 1 oz to acre I think is recommended if you're killing a whole acre considering square feet) AND considering a 3 gallon hand sprayer to mix to spray ROWS, BOTTOM LINE- do you feel like you're safe with 1 oz of Oust per 3 gallons of water in a hand sprayer? I think that's what you mentioned earlier, and just making sure you have not had any problem killing anything existing OR new plantings with a 1 oz per 3 gallons?

For some acorns and other SEED plantings- I might try either killing area with Round-up really good and doing 1 of 2 options, option 1- killing with Round-up in fall, once plants sprout next spring (spring seeding as well), bucket spray round-up in this next spring/summer (when seedlings are getting going), when the weeds get too big OR
Option 2- also spray a very light amount of Oust (this fall), say 1/4 oz or 1/2 oz in the 3 gallon sprayer. I do like your idea of trying small areas. Which of the options you guys recommend, or a 3rd option for starting from seed?

[dbltree]

If you apply the proper rate then it is perfectly safe but for a new planned planting, I feel fall spraying Oust is safer then spraying around newly spring planted seedlings.

A few months of winter, freezing and thawing etc. moves the oust away from the soil surface and "takes the edge off" so to speak.

Seedlings are already stressed so that makes it impossible to tell if mortality is from herbicide or "natural causes"

I haven't had any "mass" die offs even of newly planted seedlings using Oust but it is potent stuff.

So much nicer planting into bare soil the next spring rather then fighting grass and sod as your trying to push bare roots into a hole...

I always use roundup to kill existing vegatation but oust is the residual that keeps it from coming back. Whole lot nicer band spraying in October then having to cover and spray in 90 degree heat

Direct seedings reccommend using Oust the year after seedling rather the seeding year. It may prevent germination...not sure but here is a good link that touches on herbicides for direct seeding.

Direct Seeding Hardwoods (http://dnr.wi.gov/forestry/Publications/articles/HardwoodDirectSeeding-2004.pdf)

Direct Seeding project (http://www.mn.nrcs.usda.gov/partnerships/fillmore/Creek%20Valley%20Reforestation/Plan%20A%20Webpage%20Text.htm)

[dbltree]

When planting trees into a brome field, if I demolish the brome in the rows themselves BUT don't kill the brome between the rows, think that will be ok?
Basically, my trees will have a couple feet on both sides BUT I do worry a touch about the brome creeping back in. Thoughts?





I mow the centers in mine but yes, brome will "creep" back in. That's not a problem because most trees/shrubs will, in 2-3 years be high enough to be above grasses.

We don't want bare ground there for 10 years.. just long enough to give em a head start!

[dbltree]

Talked to Agronomist the other day and he recommended Atrazine for trees, said it was pretty much the same as Simazine BUT cheaper, said it works the same way. Thoughts????



Atrazine is more effective then simazine and safe for conifers and established trees but check the label carefully before using it on everything...

[Sligh1]

I did some exciting and light Sunday reading today. Read the labels on Oust XP and some other Pre-emergents AND I read the IA DNR's Tree planting, weed control PDF.

Both mention the possibility of Oust being very hard on newly planted trees (oust label did have a section for new transplants though). Those sources and couple others I read said some of the pre-emergents and Oust can STUNT GROWTH 1st year or possibly kill (dbltree did not sound like you've ever had problem with killing the trees though).

Would anyone ever recommend just spraying Round-up the 1st year so there's no stunting of trees (or the slight risk of killing them from Pre-emergents)??? Then bucket spray later possibly if needed (which it pry will be). Another thing I considered was putting just a tiny amount in my 3-gallon sprayer- putting regular amount of round-up + tiny amount of Oust (.25-.5 oz) and maybe a very small amount of Atrazine (1/4 - 1/2 a pint)- Spray that this fall. Have you read this OR have opinion on my above idea from what I read today? (I am planting a huge variety of trees and shrubs from DNR so I kind of want to do the mimimum if one variety doesn't handle chemicals well).

[dbltree]

There are all kinds of combos that you can spray but if you spray your Oust on this fall and plant next spring it won't be such a "hot" mix and you'll still have residual control.

My original planting was 10 rows all the way a round 80 acres (don't remember how many seedlings but a LOT!) and they band sprayed Oust on all of it with no problems.

Planted everything from oaks to shrubs to spruces to cedars.

If you are concerned though, consider herbicides like Surflan, rather then Oust. I am just comfortable with Oust so that's what I recommend.

You can also try some spots right now with lighter amounts and see what kind of control you get with a 1/2 ounce, it might be enough.

If you have to hit them later I think Select might be safer then Roundup to spray grasses around growing seedlings...especially if one has a little left over...

Bucket spraying thousands of trees is a pain...been there done that...

[dbltree]

I'm pretty new at tree planting and was just wondering if I would be allright spraying around 2 year old apple trees or newly planted oaks with round-up, being carfull not to actualy hit the leaves.



Yep...just keep it off the leaves. If the trees are small (like less then a foot) you can use the "bucket" method, covering each one, spraying around it and knowing the leaves are protected.

If they are 3-4 foot tall just do it on a calm day and spray around the bases

[Sligh1]

In the post I read alot about Fall mowing and spraying. I found one spot where it was said to spray Pre-emergents in October. Do you feel like 1st week in October is too early?
*Once late October and November hit- my deer projects are DONE, it's just deer killing time and THAT'S IT!!!

*I have all my areas that I am planting trees MOWED & they are all killed with Round-up right now. I will mix in a bit of round-up with my Pre-emergents as well as it can't hurt. That's my plan so far for my spring plantings, just want to time the pre-emergent spraying right. THANKS!!!

[dbltree]

I found one spot where it was said to spray Pre-emergents in October. Do you feel like 1st week in October is too early?





Noooo...you have to do it the first week of November.... ;) ;)

First of October is fine...then it's no worries about getting that Oust on a little heavier. It won't be a shock to new seedlings in the spring as rains will diffuse it into the soil a little better. :)

[dbltree]

All of the nurseries I'm talking to are telling me to plant our trees late Nov. or early Dec. Is that okay for fruit trees too in you guys' opinions?



Bare root seedlings can be planted spring or fall as long as they are dormant and temps are low enough to ensure that they stay that way.

Balled or container trees canbe planted almost anytime but spring and fall will be less stressful and watering won't be an issue.

Same rules apply to fruit trees... :)

[letemgrow]

All of the nurseries I'm talking to are telling me to plant our trees late Nov. or early Dec. Is that okay for fruit trees too in you guys' opinions?



that's my favorite time since they have more time to get settled in before the summer stress starts.

[KSQ2]

Thanks fellas...

One more question, in planting a small orchard (10-15 trees) over a several year period, how much distance should I put between the trees? I'll be planting a variety of pears and apples.

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: KSQ2
Thanks fellas...

One more question, in planting a small orchard (10-15 trees) over a several year period, how much distance should I put between the trees? I'll be planting a variety of pears and apples.






It makes a difference on the rootstock you are using and there is more info in the Apple and Pear thread also



Quote:
Distance Between
Rootstock Trees in the Row (ft)
Seedling 18-25
MM.111 14-18
MM.106 12-16
M.7a 10-14
M.26 8-12
Mark 6-8
M.9 4-8

--For spur type varieties multiply by .65 (i.e. Redchief Red
Delicious, Starkrimson Red Delicious, Lawspur Rome, Oregon Spur).
--For very vigorous varieties multiply by 1.4 (i.e. Rome Beauty,
Granny Smith, Jonagold).





APPLE ROOTSTOCKS AND TREE SPACING (http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/hil-300-a.html)

This is whereI buy my fruit trees and they have a lot of great info on thier site as well.

Adams County Nursery (http://www.acnursery.com/)

[dbltree]

I was wonder if you can keep tree's til next spring? Menards has 50% off there trees and shrubs. I was thinking about getting some and putting them in the basement til spring would that work?



If they are potted trees I think you would want to plant them...perhaps pot and all in the garden or backyard and then move them in the spring.

Be better if you could just plant them this fall however.

A basement wouldn't be cold enough I don't think and they wouldn't stay dormant or even go into dormancy.

[Sligh1]

I have 2 questions for ordering EXPENSIVE trees from Okios Nursery.

1) I will order maybe 70 trees from them. Would you PREPARE with round-up only and go for mulching around them if you were me since we aren’t talking about 50 Ga-zillion trees? Obviously if you didn’t have to use pre-emergents I would think that would slightly help the tree and I don’t think you can beat proper mulching. I have killed the areas NOW but unfortunately I am done for the year on projects (deer killing time) so I will have to resort to spring planting. Stick with round-up and mulching only? (and tree tubes).

2) I don’t know EXACTLY the best trees to order, I am kinda ordering a Buffet of trees that seem to be good for wildlife and deer AND are like nothing I have on my land now in many cases. Some of the trees I am order the GIANT size which is more expensive, a few I am going with a bit smaller because I want more of them AND there’s a point where the big ones are just too pricy for this dude. Let me know if you think:

A) There’s varieties I have chosen that you would NOT buy or steer clear from???
B) B) For wildlife, is there some big varieties that I am missing that you’d buy (mainly for deer- maybe a few birds as well)- these would be varieties that iowadnr does not carry as I’ll get some from them. (I have 2 apple orchards right now as well already)
C) Or some of the varieties I have bought, any you’d say- MAKE SURE you buy the BIGGEST trees for some reason?

Here’s the trees I am ordering for my rough draft selection:
-American Persimmon (have many already but ordering some really big ones)

-Timburr Chestnut
-American Hybrid Chestnut
-Prolific American Hybrid Chestnut
-Miller Wildlife Seguin Hybrid Chestnut
-Layeroka Chestnut
-Chinquapin Hybrid Chestnut
-Chinese Chestnut

-Sawtooth Oak
-Maximus Bur oak (you have to see these acorns- GIANT!!!!)
-Chinkapin Oak
-Chestnut Oak
-Should I order a Bebbs oak? (I have lots of oaks that are TSI freed up already including tons of whites).
-Sargent Oak

[letemgrow]

sligh1,

I would drop the chinkapin oaks, chestnut oak and persimmon. I can send you seeds from some great persimmons growing in my grandparents garden that are 5 years old and produce a ton of fruit!!!! The oaks I can order from the MDC through my wife and give you some... I just cannot resell them and could get you 30+ inch one year old trees if they have tons of them they select out the best ones and sell them in 25 tree bundles.

I ordered some of the bebbs oak and schburr oak from Oikos. The verdict is still out on them, but they are alive after one year. Did not put on much growth tho. With 5 total trees it is hard to tell if they are just not what they are claimed to be or I did not put them in the right places possibly.

I had good luck with the timburr chestnuts from oikos though, I order the biggers trees they have for my fall plantings. The american hybrid chestnuts I would put on n, ne facing slopes or anywhere that you find northern red oaks on your place as they like the same kinds of soils. I am not sure about the chinese versions they could like south facing slopes for all I know, but chestnuts need soil that is well drained.

[dbltree]

These are some Okios hybrid oaks that I planted nearly 10 years ago that have done well.

Burenglish Oak (http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/product.asp?P_ID=397&PT_ID=7&strPageHistory=cat)

Bimundors Oak (http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/product.asp?P_ID=394&PT_ID=7&strPageHistory=cat)

Schuettes Oak (http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/product.asp?P_ID=402&PT_ID=7&strPageHistory=cat)

I chose them because they will bear in 6-10 years and being I'm an old fart...that's a big deal for me!

Oaks are pretty tolerant of residual herbicides and I haven't had any problems thus far. Those trees grew fast and had Oust applied even way back then. Bucks have murdered them and set them back because I had too many to fence...so watch that!

Mice and rabbits are a big problem with both oaks and chestnuts and mice will chew thru the tubes and bnuild nests inside and kill your seedlings..so watch that also!

I like to keep a clean killed area and use small wire fencing to keep rodents away. Mulch encourages mice unless you use small stone for mulch.

If anything can go wrong with what seems like a perfect setup....it's happened to me!!

Clean dirt around the tree is something a mouse or rabbit doesn't like...no place to hide..

Try some trees from letmegrow and see how they do. my chestnuts haven't fared well in this heavy ground but I haven't tried all varieties. It's the "perfect tree" if they'll grow in your soils.

I'm looking to pool a tree order from Okios so perhaps we can order together...I'll order...you pay.... ;)

[letemgrow]

Clean dirt around the tree is something a mouse or rabbit doesn't like...no place to hide..





that's the biggest thing I noticed in keeping mice and varmits away from the seedlings they don't like crossing bare ground to get to the trees to keep the roundup going, oust, or whatever you decide to use. They WILL get girdled no doubt if cover is close by for the mice to feel safe to go to those trees.

I still use the tubes, but with keeping the ground open I have ZERO mouse problems thus far with the tubes. The chestnuts that were girdled last year were not tubed AND not cleared out very well which was all my fault...it won't happen this year tho

[letemgrow]

Would it help to wrap screen (bulk window screen) around the tubes? I'll be buying screen for my fruit trees anyway.



that might help, but I would imagine if mice will chew through a tube that screen may not do much...keeping the ground bare around the tubes has worked the best for me so mice dont' even try and the tube keeps the rabbits off the seedlings.

[JNRBRONC]

A can of spray paint will keep them from chewing too. Just paint the 1st foot. Quick and easy.



I've heard to use white paint so that the sun doesn't heat the bark in winter which would cause a daily thaw/freeze (thaw during the day, freeze at night). Not sure if this has any real basis or not.

[KSQ2]

One of the slickest apple tree planting guides I've ever seen came in an issue of North American Hunter a while back. It said to mix interior latex paint 50/50 with water and paint up the trunk to the first branch for the reasons JNRBRONC mentioned, I've not heard of it repelling rodents though, it'd be great if it did!

[Sligh1]

I forgot about the paint. I hope it doesn't hurt the tree in any way, sounds like from above experience it won't.

I have also heard of people mixing in the PEPPER spray you can buy from Earl May or other places to make it taste NASTY if they ate it, I suppose you'd mix in a big can and brush it on, guy from ISU who is in forestry program said that for apple trees. Many theories I suppose.

[dbltree]

Just a reminder on tree tubes also...

Generally you need to partially open them to let trees harden off in the fall. I've had trees die because they are living in a greenhouse enviorment and then...wham...exteme cold weather hits and they aren't prepared.

I used the ones with "ties" so I could open them and then re-close them later.

Pain in the butt if you have hundreds but no big deal for a dozen trees...

[letemgrow]

Just a reminder on tree tubes also...

Generally you need to partially open them to let trees harden off in the fall. I've had trees die because they are living in a greenhouse enviorment and then...wham...exteme cold weather hits and they aren't prepared.

I used the ones with "ties" so I could open them and then re-close them later.

Pain in the butt if you have hundreds but no big deal for a dozen trees...




i buy the ventilated ones and then add some more holes to boot on them with a cordless drill...that seems to work out well on getting the trees to harden off for winter.

[Sligh1]

PEAR TREES- if any of you are thinking of planting some pear trees for deer and other wildlife you should and you have a great idea!

Two varieties to think about ordering are Kieffer pear AND Olympic pear which both ripen between early October and late October- some falling well into November.

Obviously the apples are great as well- late ripening varieties such as Granny Smiths, Braeburns, Fuji's, etc.

*I was just doing some planning (actually for next spring- I know I am pathetic) and thought I'd mention some ordering ideas.

[Sligh1]

Anyone know if there is ANY benefit to wildlife with Ohio Buckeye trees??? I would assume not since I think they are NOT edible for humans and no one has ever mentioned them BUT i thought i'd ask. I picked up about 15 freshly fallen nuts today that I just think are cool so I might plant them just for the heck of it.

I also picked up some Shellbark hickory for a friend that wanted some BUT I probably won't plant any of those as I have tons and I don't think they do much for deer.

If you are looking for Acorns, drive down the road and you'll see them all over the place!!!! now's the time! I've been impressed with a few Burr Oak trees- how big the acorns were and how much deer sign was by them- regular white oak is probably better BUT couldn't hurt to do a few Burr's if for some odd reason you didn't have them.

[dbltree]

Checked on some of my sawtooth oaks yesterday...13 years old, no acorns yet but they sure grow fast!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Sawtoothoaks.jpg


http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Moresawtooths.jpg


These are some younger hybrid oaks from Okios that I know longer know the names of... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Hybridoak.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Hybridoak2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Hybridoak3.jpg

They have all been beaten to death yearly by bucks on a rampage and this shorter "bushier" type oak they seem to love...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Freshdamage.jpg

The sawtooths took hits early on but eventually out grew their attackers.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Buckdamage.jpg

The hybrids are expensive so "do as I say not as I do" and fence them right off the get go! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Sligh1]

Dbltree, I've never seen a sawtooth oak before. From the picture it sure looks like a shingle oak. Obviously shingle oaks are great for yearly acorns as well (and growing like crazy in all locations!). Would you consider the two trees similar? Would you choose the Sawtooth over the shingle oak IF you didn't have a billion shingle oaks already? I sure think Shingle oaks are great trees for many reasons!!! (cover so late, yearly acorns, fast growth, adaptability, etc.).

[dbltree]

I've never seen a sawtooth oak before. From the picture it sure looks like a shingle oak.



The leaves look exactly like shingle oak but the bark is different and the trees seem to grow straighter and faster.

Sawtooths are asian oaks and when they start producing, do so prolificlly. They do retain their leaves through the winter like single oaks so that is another advantage.

In the south they have spread some much like the shingle oak does here but we are on the northern limits of it's range so it remains to be seen what will happen here.

I'm guessing at one of these days I'll be one of the first to find out here in Iowa.....

[dbltree]

I have GAZILLIONS of shingle oak along with tons of red, white, black, swamp, etc. Basically compared with Shingle, do you feel I have any need for the sawtooth? any advantages over shingle? (sounds like from your above post they are SIMILAR in benefit)

*Also, any benefit to Buckeye trees?

THANKS!!!




I think in your case with smaller plantings I would stick with hybrid native oaks. For those planting larger plantings then sawtooths might be a good option.

I don't really know about the buckeye's?

[Joey Rott]

Not to change the subject too much... But I plan on picking up acorns here real soon, as many of the oaks are loaded with them this year. What is the best way to distinguish the difference between a Bur & White Oak? I understand they're both in the white oak family, and have a lot's of similarites. Thanks

[turtlshell]

What is the best way to distinguish the difference between a Bur & White Oak?



Look at the surrounding trees, and look at the acorns themselves. 9 times out of 10 a bur oak acorn will still be surrounded by it's cap with just a tip of the acorn sticking out. They will be a little bigger than marbles. White oaks acorns tend to separate from the cap and range in size. They are likely to be about the size of the last digit of your middle finger.

You may wish to have already looked. I was out last weekend and the trees were dropping like crazy. Several of the acorns I found had already sprouted. The ones that hadn't sprouted were very swelled up and ready to.

I have never read anything where deer eat buckeyes...and I'm not sure that they could get one open. The "meat/nut" probalby isn't real palatable. Plant Buckeye's for looks and variety not as a food source.

[letemgrow]

also bur oak caps will be burly (hairy) at the end and as turtl stated that they will be at least 1/2 covered by the cap.


Dbltree, I've never seen a sawtooth oak before. From the picture it sure looks like a shingle oak. Obviously shingle oaks are great for yearly acorns as well (and growing like crazy in all locations!). Would you consider the two trees similar? Would you choose the Sawtooth over the shingle oak IF you didn't have a billion shingle oaks already? I sure think Shingle oaks are great trees for many reasons!!! (cover so late, yearly acorns, fast growth, adaptability, etc.).




they are very prolific acorn producers. I keep mine at bay and diversify my timbers more....they rank right up there with honey locusts as far as seeding rate on my place. The early succession timbers are covered in locust, hickory and shingle oaks with few whites so I cut out around the white and leave some shingles for added diversity.

[dbltree]

You guys may have covered this already, and if so I apologize for the request to repeat, but what do you use for residual herbicide around your nut and fruit trees? Is there a once-a-year variety or do you usually do spring & fall? Thanks!!

DblTree: Those sawtooth oaks of yours that were 13yo but not producing ... have they never produced or are they just off this year? I have several in the 5-yr range that are producing already. Can't recall which outfit I bought them from but I can research if you're interested.





I like to use Oust which is a pretty potent residual herbicide but there are others such as Surflan AS. There are several good links back in this thread with more herbicide options.

So far, my sawtooths have never produced acorns that I am aware of. I believe they came from Cold Stream Farm nursery in MI...but I can't remember what I had for breakfast let alone 13 years ago...

Different parent trees certainly make a difference and were always looking for more/better options, so share your source if you can find it.

For a time NWTF was offering "Gobbler" Sawtooths that were supposed to produce earlier and be very heavy yielders of slightly smaller acorns (perhaps more like shingle oaks)

Could be you got some of those? :)

[magnus]

I got most of my Sawtooths from the PA Game Commission's Howard Nursery. They sell 2-3yo seedlings each Spring, at very reasonable prices. I've had numerous Sawtooths for <5yrs, and they're producing good acorn numbers. Interestingly, in an effort to get a jump on things a few years back I paid ~$100 each for 3 sawtooths. Since then, one got broken off at the trunk in an ice storm and the other 2 are producing very minimal acorn numbers. Lesson: Buy good quality. Howard Nursery stock is good.

I'm big on Chestnuts too. Deer love them. I have Chinese and another variety of hybrids called Dunstan. Both have produced at 5-6 years of age (2-3 yrs in the ground on my farm). Dunstans are kind of pricey but great quality. If you have bears, you're at risk for broken Chestnut trees once they start producing. Fortunately, in my area of eastern PA, we don't have many bears .... yet.

[Sligh1]

I ordered some SPRING trees from the DNR. I'll still order a ton of other stuff like fruit trees, oaks, etc from specialty nurseries BUT here's what I ordered from DNR (a few of the trees I just ordered because I like them- not much of wildlife benefit), here's my order, THOUGHTS?!?!?!?!? *I have tons of big hardwoods already SO I am concentrating on shrubs, etc. **All are 17"-24"

Red Cedar- 1,200
Persimmon- 100
Highbush Cran- 200
Nannyberry- 200
Arrowwood- 200
Elderberry- 100
Choke Cherry- 100
Nanking Cherry- 100
Wild Plum- 100
Ninebark- 200
Hazelnut- 300
Redosier Dogwood 100
Gray Dogwood- 300
Silky Dogwood- 100
Buttonbush- 100
Serviceberry- 100
hybrid willow- 200
Sycamore- 100
Northern Pecan- 50
Aspen- 50
Swamp oak- 50
Pin Oak- 50

[dbltree]

Sounds like you got a butt load of trees to plant.



Yikes! I guess so! :)

Pretty good selection though Skip...planting trees and shrubs is an awesome legacy and it's always great to see people plant them just because they "love trees"...

I think all of the shrubs will certainly enhance your property (or any property) for wildlife of all kinds including whitetails.

That's been my thinking as well although I don't have as great a selection as you will have!

Take care to mark the different varieties/species to see how they do and pros/cons of each over the next 5-10 years.

I try to plant shrubs along roadways for "poacher screens" and mast producing trees farther "inland"...

Hope you have a tree planter lined up!:)

[dbltree]

This time of year I spend most of my spare time in a tree stand and I often pass the time staring out at the landscape around me and think, gee...I need some trees in that spot and if I had some shrubs along there, what a great travel corridor that would make! Hey...there are worse things to think about! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

I snapped a few pics of some of my trees as I walked out the other day.

Here are some 2 year old Red Cedars that came from the Iowa State Nursery and I controlled weeds with Oust herbicide.You can see that in only a few years they have reached a point of "out competing" the grass and weeds.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/3yrRedCedar.jpg

I'm not sure if it is weed suppresion or better stock but they sure seem to grow faster then wild red cedars! I feel that red cedars are bar none the best year around screen and bedding cover here in Iowa. They are native and very easy to grow.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RedCedar10-21-08.jpg

The sawtooths have sure grown but no acorns yet...they do make a good screen because they hold leaves nearly all winter.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Sawtooth10-08.jpg

The High Bush Cranberry's are loaded with berries but they loose their leaves early,so don't use them as a screen.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/HighBushCranberry-2.jpg

I've had great success using Oust herbicide but Oust is used primarly on conifers and hardwoods. I've used it on some types of shrubs but not the extensive list of varieties such as those in Skip's previous post.

I think I will try to test different herbicides this spring to see how different seedlings react to different herbicides. If only one is used we have noway of knowing if mortality was caused in part by a specific herbicide.

We also have no way of knowing if growth is affected in any way.

I feel that a combination of Surflan A.S. and Simazine might a safer alternative when planting shrubs that might be sensitive to potent herbicides such as Oust.

I would also add that planting the area to low growing white clover and mowing can be very effective because tree seedlings can quickly rise above clover.

Keeping a "band" sprayed strip around seedlings does help keep rodents from girdling new seedlings.

Here are updated labels, sources and additional links to using herbicides in trees, some that also contain info on calibrating handheld sprayers.

Surflan A.S. Herbicide (http://www.montereyagresources.com/label/SurflanASAgricultural(1104).pdf)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Surflan A.S. herbicide is a <span style="color: #FF0000">preemergence</span> surface-applied product for
the control of annual grasses and many broadleaf weeds in ornamental plantings, bulbs, ground covers/perennials, established warm-season turfgrass, Christmas tree plantations, non-bearing trees and vines, and non-cropland and industrial sites.

Surflan A.S. is orange in color and
may cause temporary discoloration of sprayed surfaces. </div></div>

Oust XP herbicide (http://www.dupont.com/ag/us/prodinfo/prodsearch/information/H65144.pdf)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OUST® XP may be used for general weed control on
terrestrial noncrop sites and for selective weed control in
certain types of unimproved turf grasses on these same sites.

OUST® XP may also be used for selective weed control in
forest site preparation and in the release of certain conifers
and hardwoods.

OUST® XP can be tank mixed with other
herbicides registered for use in forestry and noncrop sites;
when tank mixing, use the most restrictive limitations from
the labeling of both products.

When applied as spray, OUST® XP controls weeds by both
<span style="color: #FF0000">preemergence and postemergence</span> activity.
When applied on dry fertilizer, OUST® XP controls weeds by preemergence activity.

When applied as a spray, the best results are
obtained when the application is made before the early
stages of weed growth before weeds develop an established
root system.

When applied on dry fertilizer, the best results
are obtained when the application is made before weed
emergence. The best results are obtained when the
application is made before or during the early stages of
weed growth before weeds develop an established root
system.

Moisture is required to move OUST® XP into the
root zone of weeds for preemergence control.

When applying to newly planted seedlings, wait until rain has settled and closed planting furrows orinjury may result.

OUST® XP should be applied before the hardwood tree
seedlings or transplants break dormancy (bud swell stage).
Applications made over the top after the trees have broken
dormancy may injure or kill the trees.

</div></div>

SIMAZINE 4L Herbicide (http://www.masternurseries.com/Simazine_4L.pdf)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SIMAZINE 4L: This product is a herbicide that <span style="color: #FF0000">should be applied before weeds emerge</span> or following removal of weed growth. It controls a wide variety of annual Broadleaf and Grass weeds when used atselective rates in agricultural and ornamental crops.

Where a range of application rates is given, use the lower rate on Coarser textured soil and soil lower in organic matter; use the higher rate on Finer textured soil and soil higher in organic matter.

This product enters weeds mainly through their roots; moisture is
needed to move it into the root zone. Very dry soil conditions and lack of rainfall following application may necessitate shallow cultivation orrotary hoeing. </div></div>

Townsend Chemical Division (http://www.townsendchemical.com/equipment.html) carries basically all these herbicides and many more. They will divide and sell smaller quanities of expensive herbicides like Oust.

Surflan Source (http://www.cooperseeds.com/lawnchem.php3?cat=weedcontrol&cartid=#surflangallon) Cooper Seed also carries a wide variety of herbicides but many of these can also be purchased locally at your ag supply source.

Weed Control in Tree Plantings (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/plantsci/weeds/w1097w.htm)

Weed Control for Seedlings (http://www.forestry.iastate.edu/topics/woodland_mgmt/weedcontrol.html)

Chemical Weed Control in Tree Plantings (http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/library/FORST2/MF656.PDF)

Grass Weed Control in Trees (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/pdf/weeds.pdf)

Don't forget to start thinking about what trees and shrubs you'll want to plant this next spring: State Forest Nursery Catalog (http://www.iowadnr.gov/forestry/catalog.html)

Just some things to ponder while your waiting for that monster buck to show up this fall... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Joey Rott]

I walked around the woods over the weekend and checked all of the tree plantings. Most of them seem to be doing fine except that something has dug up all of my crabapple trees and ate the roots. I planted about a dozen 3-4 ft crabapples trees, and every one of them was dug up with the roots only, eaten. Whatever it was, didn't touch any other tree, except the crabapples. I guess I'll have to put some wire on the ground next year!

Any ideas of what does this? I'll try to get some pictures tonight.

[dbltree]

something has dug up all of my crabapple trees and ate the roots



ok...that is a new one??

I have never seen that happen so I'm curious if anyone else has run into this problem? Usually it's everything above ground that get's hit.

Glad the rest are doing good however...

For anyone considering trees and shrubs this next spring (or even right now)...go back to the front of this thread where I have re-posted detailed information and pictures of many common trees and shrubs that might be considered ina wildlife tree planting. I also added more detailed herbicide information as well.

I have applied for REAP funding to do some additional plantings myself but I need to wait for approval before ordering.

Apply for cost share assistance through your local NRCS office who will then forward it to your local IDNR forester. He will go over a planting plan with you and then send it back to the committee for approval.

I talked to my forester this morning and tree planting is $600 an acre for which they cost share 75%. This covers seedlings, planting costs and herbicides. If you do it yourself or hire it done this is a big help in the easing the expense of planting.

A minimum of 3 acres is required, so check back at the beginning of this thread and see how trees and shrubs might enhance your property for whitetails and other wildlife. :)

[dbltree]

Does anyone have much experience with Bur-English Trees? From all the reading i've done on it, it seems to be a fast growing, high mast production, superior root system, and a hardy tree. Oikos says it's their most successful hybrid oak available.

Idaho University (http://seedlings.uidaho.com/nurseryshop/product.asp?dept%5Fid=1&sku=QUMAxRO20) offers superstock seedlings as a fairly reasonable price, so I thought I'd try a few.





I have planted some but they are too young to pass judgment yet. At this point I see no reason that you would not be happy with them.

That's a good price for them at IU...might have to order some myself! :)

[Sligh1]

Ok, I am out of project-rehab BUT I've fallen off the wagon already!!!! Just ordered a few trees from http://www.NWTF.org under the "Turkey Shoppe" "Land Management" sections. I actually am putting some projects on hold this year like ordering from Oikios and a few other places because I'll have this and 4,100 other trees to plant which include fencing a new apple orchard. So, for this year I'm limiting to iowadnr.com trees, these and apple/pear tree order. Next year I'll do more hybrids and specialty trees. I felt like these trees below just offered me a little more diversity to add to the mix and I felt like getting a few different food source choices beyond DNR trees (which are EXCELLENT). not sure if NWTF is good on pricing BUT seems pretty decent (pry could shop around for a bit cheaper).

Bare Root Seedlings $40.00 $80.00
Chinese Chestnut [986327X] Zones 4-9
1 Bare Root Seedlings $42.50 $42.50
Common Apple [986328X] Zones 3-9
1 Bare Root Seedlings $42.50 $42.50
Chickasaw Plum [986412X] Zones 5-9
1 Bare Root Seedlings $42.50 $42.50
Sawtooth Oak [986336X] Zones 5-9
1 Container Grown Seedlings $20.00 $20.00
Gobbler Sawtooth Oak [986403X]
1 Container Grown Seedlings $20.00 $20.00
Swamp Chestnut Oak [986423X] (same description as bare root)

[letemgrow]

I have had some trees dug up, but it seems that whatever dug them up was more interested in the grubs or whatever else they were looking for in the easy to dig soil I created. Never saw much, if any roots being eaten.

[dbltree]

I am out of project-rehab BUT I've fallen off the wagon already!!!!



Your hopeless Skip...kinda like me! :)

I have 3600 trees coming from the State Nursery, 200 trees from the Idaho nursery, a handful from Oikos and Coldstream Farms as well as the apple and pear trees.

I'll plant them and watch them grow just like the other 10,000 + trees and shrubs I've planted in the past 15 years.

In my lifetime...I can only guess because I started when I was 9 years old following a tradition of my father and grandfather.

Plant trees...10 or 10,000 it's an awesome legacy to leave behind! :)

[letemgrow]

In my lifetime...I can only guess because I started when I was 9 years old following a tradition of my father and grandfather.

Plant trees...10 or 10,000 it's an awesome legacy to leave behind!






no doubt DBT!!! I am following my grandpa whom I spent a lot of time with when young in the garden. He is old enough now that I go plant what he wants since he can no longer do it, but I am thankful he opened the gate so to speak for me!!!

I am between planting 10-10,000 and hope to hit that mark with a 75% success rate on survival.

I am hoping to switch over to seeds exclusively after this year instead of bare root seedlings. Now air pruned ones or ones grown in containers would suit me fine, but I hate the transplant shock most bare root trees show.

I bought a packet of american beauty berry seeds ($2.50) this past spring and grew them in root trapper containers till fall. I could have spent 50 bucks buying seedlings for all those beauty berries that I planted for 2.50 cents and a few root trapper containers I already had.

[dbltree]

I am hoping to switch over to seeds exclusively after this year instead of bare root seedlings.



That's something I would like to learn more about so from time to time, please share more about seeds and acorns, direct seeding and starting in containers.

[letemgrow]

I have never seen such extensive root systems as I have achieved with air root pruning. I planted some illinois bundleflower, beauty berry, walnuts, buttonbushes and some apple trees in them. I should have taken pics of their root systems in the 5-gallon pots...PHENOMINAL!!!! I also planted some of the beautyberries in july when it was hot and dry and they were only watered once every couple weeks. Those particular ones came out of 4 inch pots and have very vast root systems for their size and they all lived.

You could not do that with a transplanted seedling I guarantee that much. I will have to take some pics this spring of the work. I am going to plant some shumark oak acorns, persimmons, eastern wahoo, paw paws, downy hawthorne, downy serviceberry and walnuts in the air pruning containers and see how they work.

[Sligh1]

FOLKS- not trying to compare the two BUT, if you want the MOST BANG FOR YOUR BUCK, I'd really look at the apple/pear tree post. For $500 you could get 35-50 production grade, grafted trees that are 5-6 feet tall. You will have fruit in a couple years and could probably pull the fence down in 6-8 (it goes by FAST!!!!). Compare this to $500 for about 1,000 seedlings- if you're buying them for food, it could be more than 20 years.

NOW, I am 100% all for little trees, (I plant from acorns/seeds often!!) AND much of what I plant is for COVER as well. You'd be CRAZY to only do ONLY one or the other though between big fruit trees and small food/cover trees.

What I'm saying is, keep planting tons of the seedlings for many many reasons!!! (cedars, oaks, shrubs, etc) BUT, take a real hard look at getting some apple and pear trees (you don't need 1,000 like the little tree order, MORE like 15 to 100) that you and the wildlife will love for generations and will produce TONS of great production grade food rather quickly.

[dbltree]

You could not do that with a transplanted seedling I guarantee that much. I will have to take some pics this spring of the work. I am going to plant some shumark oak acorns, persimmons, eastern wahoo, paw paws, downy hawthorne, downy serviceberry and walnuts in the air pruning containers and see how they work.



I'm interested in where you get the air pruning containers and all we need to know to start are own seedlings. So much cheaper to share acorns and seeds and start our own that's for sure!

Many of us will be planting trees this spring so I wanted to bring up some thoughts on exactly what/where to plant to really enhance our habitat for deer.

We can learn a lot but looking at natural deer use of natural existing tree cover.

I got down at a bedded deer's level and snapped a couple pics in a stand of Red Cedars.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cedars1.jpg

What do use see from their level?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Groundlevel.jpg

Even in the thickest cedars...I could see any movement for some distance away.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/LowerView.jpg

The area under these cedars is full of deer beds

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Bedsincedars.jpg

Now...stand up and what do you see?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Noview.jpg

At best one can only see a short distance

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/UpperLevel.jpg

So think about the use of cover trees like cedars and where you can place them in your habitat program. Deer are going to bed in them and take advantage of the ability to be able to see danger and then escape unseen.

Planting oaks next to your cedar planting provide hard mast food sources

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oakncedar.jpg

Along a creek or near a pond provides a water source

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Hardwoodsandcedars.jpg

With a little thought you can create a natural funnel that deer will follow out to a food source such as this one.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RunwayinCedars.jpg

Just think about your tree plantings, more then just planting trees but taking advantage of our observations of whitetails and their natural use of trees for cover, escape and feed.

In a few years your planning can really pay off! :)

[Sligh1]

With SHRUBS (& maybe a few cedars) would any of you consider MIXING THEM IN ROWS??? Before, I put straight rows of each species. This year, I was considering mixing similar size and growth rate shrubs together (maybe staggering 4 varieties) in the rows. I would do this in case some shrub types don't do well, so it doesn't look so monotonous and just to create more diversity. *I will also do shrubs with similar future maintanence needs.

Basically, this is my way of getting CRAZY in life!!! Wild huh?!?!? What do you think???

[dbltree]

Might have possibles Skip, Cedars will eventuall spread out and possible smother a closely planted shrub, but mixing the shrubs might not be a bad idea.

Never tried it so let us know how it works in a few years...

[letemgrow]

dbtree,

I ordered mine from Rootmaker (http://www.rootmaker.com/) I like the express 18 cell trays since you can move the cells around to mix and match if needed. I will try to take some pics of the roots after they go through the process.

Then I move them to 5-gallon pots or just plant them out in their permanent locations. Personally DT I would remove a lot of the cedars and leave isolated pockets for them to bed in and as escape cover. I like to have them at the tops of south facing slopes, but have NWSG/food on the south side so they can avoid the bitter north winds.

Cedars are great escape/bedding cover. I noticed that deer love to bed under them in an ice storm too so some cedars will always have a spot on my place.

[dbltree]

i was thinking about planting some dwarf chinkapin oaks, dwarf chestnut oaks & alleghany chinkapins.will these trees produce nuts in 3 or 4 years.would you use tree shelters or cages on these trees.



It does appear that the Dwarf Chinkapin Oak can produce acorns in 3-4 years which makes it very a very attractive oak to consider planting!



Quercus prinoides Willd.
Dwarf chinkapin oak
Fagaceae (Beech Family)
USDA Symbol: QUPR
USDA Native Status: Native to U.S.
GROWTH FORM: rhizomatous shrub or a small tree to 25 feet (7.6 m). BARK: thin gray bark with furrows and scaly ridges. TWIGS and BUDS: grayish twigs, broadly rounded bud brown to chestnut-brown with a blunt apex, scales have some pubescence. LEAVES: shortpetiole 1/4 - 5/8 inch (6 - 16 mm); leathery leaves are obovate, 1 1/2 - 5 1/2 inches (38 - 140 mm), 3/4 - 2 1/2 inches (19 - 63 mm), margin undulate or toothed with 3 - 8 pair of short rounded teeth, base cuneate, apex rounded; shiny dark green above, light green below with slight pubescence. ACORNS: annual; 1 - 2 acorns on peduncle up to 3/8 inch (10 mm), thin cup with short gray pubescent scales, covering up to 1/3 of nut; oblong to oval light brown nut, up to 3/4 inch (19 mm) long.

Dwarf Chinkapin oak can produce acorns at 3 - 5 years. The largest known dwarf chinkapin oak is growing in Richardson County, Nebraska.





The dwarf varieties are more "shrubby" so I think a cage would be better rather then a tube or shelter. The shrubby nature will make them very attractive to hormone charged bucks in the fall, so I would fence them for sure.

Dwarf Chinkapin Oak — Quercus prinoides Seedling Source (http://oikostreecrops.com/store/product.asp?cookiecheck=yes&P_ID=416&PT_ID=69&strPageHistory=cat)

Dwarf Chestnut Oak (Quercus prinoides) (http://www.treetrail.net/quercus_prinoides.html) does say this...



Quercus prinoides usually doesn't grow more than 20 feet tall, and it begins producing acorns at a young age, often when only three or four years old.

Unlike many oaks, once it starts bearing, it has a good crop almost every year. Its acorns are also less bitter and more palatable to wildlife than those of most other oaks.




ALLEGHENY CHINKAPIN (http://plants.usda.gov/factsheet/pdf/fs_capu9.pdf)

MDC White Oak list (http://mdc.mo.gov/forest/IandE/oak_hickory/w_oak.htm)



Chinkapin oak is closely related to the smaller but generally similar dwarf chinkapin oak (Quercus prinoides). Besides the differences in size, the two species can be distinguished by their typical habitat: chinkapin oak is typically found on calcareous soils and rocky slopes while dwarf chinkapin oak is more likely to be found on sandy soils.
Although these two oaks are generally regarded as separate species, they are sometimes considered to belong to the same species. Interestingly, when the two are considered to be conspecific, the larger chinkapin oak is often identified as a variety of dwarf chinkapin oak (as Quercus prinoides var. acuminata) because the later was described first. Chinkapin oak is also sometimes confused with the related chestnut oak. However, unlike the pointed teeth on the leaves of the chinkapin oak, the chestnut oak generally has rounded teeth. Unfortunately, this distinction is often not readily apparent. A more reliable means of distinguishing the two is by the bark. Chinkapin oak has a gray, flaky bark very similar to white oak but with a more yellow-brown cast to it, hence the occasional name yellow oak. Chestnut oak has dark, solid, deeply ridged bark that is very different. The chinkapin oak also has smaller acorns than the chestnut or swamp chestnut oaks, which have some of the largest.





Dwarf Chinkapin Oak (Quercus prinoides) leaves


http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ldplants/images/quprin872.jpg


From this site: dwarf chinkapin oak (http://www.forestryimages.org/browse/subimages.cfm?SUB=13892)

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2148075.jpg
http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2148094.jpg
http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2148071.jpg
http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2148081.jpg
http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2148092.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DwarfChestnutOakLeafandacorn.jpg

The following pics are of Chinkapin oak Quercus muehlenbergii Engelm. (not dwarf)...pretty tough to tell which is which.

Chinkapin oak (http://www.wildflower.org/plants/result.php?id_plant=QUMU)

http://www.wildflower.org/image_archive/640x480/SAW/SAW_03027.JPG
http://www.wildflower.org/image_archive/640x480/SAW/SAW_03029.JPG
http://www.wildflower.org/image_archive/640x480/SAW/SAW_03025.JPG
http://www.wildflower.org/image_archive/640x480/PCD1757/PCD1757_IMG0028.JPG

[letemgrow]

dwarf chinkapin and dwarf chestnut oak are the same tree...I think I found one growing along the interstate on my way to work this past year. The tree is maybe 20 feet tall and had a ton of acorns on it for such a small tree. I stopped by to get some acorns, but there was a well worn path to the tree and not a single one was left once they hit the ground.

I will stop by earlier next year and try to pick some up to dibby out if you all want some. They were very small acorns so they were a chinkapin of some sort for sure. Hopefully I can get a positive id next year on the tree.

[dbltree]

dwarf chinkapin and dwarf chestnut oak are the same tree...






Dah!! Thanks for pointing that out... ;)

Quercus prinoides pretty much says it all. :)



I will stop by earlier next year and try to pick some up to dibby out if you all want some.



Count me in!

[dbltree]

When do you prefer to do your winter/spring pre-imergent spraying? And what do you like the conditions to be?

*For instance, could I spray in February and does the ground have to be NOT-FROZEN for stuff like Oust (I think I read it can't be frozen), etc. I was going to spray some AS Surflan & Simizine and in some locations I was going spray some oust. Obviously I'll do it on bare ground. What conditions and timing do you like to see??? Thanks!!!





Good question Skip but I don't think I would start applying herbicides before very late March or early April. We have to much frost in the ground and herbicide is not going anywhere but the wrong places if applied now.

Perhaps someone with more techincal expertise could offer better advise but I can tell you that you don't see agriculture herbicides being sprayed on in the winter time. :)

[letemgrow]

Here's something else I do on the way to the deer stands every fall. I take 15-30 minutes to plant various seeds and pack a few tubes with me. Then I go back in that winter and cut out the undesirable trees.

This spot is or was almost 100 percent hickory so I picked it as an area to plant american chestnut, ozark chinquapin, all. chinquapin, and whitexenglish oak. This takes absolutely no time to do and I do not mess up my stands going in extra times to plant during the fall.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/TSIonHickories.jpg

[dbltree]

I take 15-30 minutes to plant various seeds and pack a few tubes with me. Then I go back in that winter and cut out the undesirable trees.





That's a great idea! Do you plant several seeds in each tube and thin them later if need be?

[letemgrow]

Some tubes I planted two, but most were just one. On the oaks I water tested them, then kept them in damp peat till they started to crack open and planted those out then so I knew they were viable seeds.

[dbltree]

Some tubes I planted two, but most were just one. On the oaks I water tested them, then kept them in damp peat till they started to crack open and planted those out then so I knew they were viable seeds.



Here's a video on oak acorns but my speakers aren't working at the moment so I have no idea what he is saying...

How to Plant Live Oak Tree Acorns (http://www.ehow.com/video_2329366_plant-live-oak-tree-acorns.html)

Collecting, storing and planting acorns (http://phytosphere.com/oakplanting/acorns.htm)



do a float test to see if the acorns are healthy and viable. To do this, place a handful of acorns in a large container of water. If the acorns sink to the bottom, they are fit acorns ready for planting. If the majority of them float, chances are that these acorns are of bad quality and will unlikely grow.



More acorn "bits" (http://www.enaturalist.org/print.php?unit_id=204)

COLLECTION AND CARE OF ACORNS (http://www.nsl.fs.fed.us/COLLECTION%20AND%20CARE%20OF%20ACORNS.pdf)

Growing Oak Trees from Seed (http://osuextra.okstate.edu/pdfs/F-5031web.pdf)

Direct Seeding (http://dnr.wi.gov/forestry/Publications/articles/HardwoodDirectSeeding-2004.pdf)

Planting with acorns (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=323047#Post323047)

[letemgrow]

good info!!!

I only keep the sinking acorns and plant them out once they start to crack open and the tap root is about 1/2 an inch out. That way I know they are good

[Joey Rott]

I plan on planting several hundred cottonwood cuttings this Spring, to provide some quick & cheap cover in certain areas. Last year I did some indoor tests with 50 or so Cottonwood & Willow cuttings of various sizes to test the root growth in plain water. I did get root growth from 80%-90% of the cuttings, with the bigger cuttings having the best growth.

I'm wanting to use some root growth additive hormones this year, to help the roots develop even more, before I stick them in the ground. There seems to be quite a few different types available, so I was seeing if anyone had any experience with a certain type or brand that worked well for them. Thanks!

[dbltree]

Quote:
I'm wanting to use some root growth additive hormones this year, to help the roots develop even more, before I stick them in the ground. There seems to be quite a few different types available, so I was seeing if anyone had any experience with a certain type or brand that worked well for them. Thanks!



I'd like to hear comments on that myself?

Let us know what you decide on and how well it works... :)

[letemgrow]

I am trying the rooting hormone on some chokecherry cuttings I took off some of the trees I bought from Lincoln Oakes nursery in North Dakota.

I bought the miracle-gro rooting hormone for a buck and though I would not be out anything cutting some limbs off and giving it a try.

The rooting hormone is working on the chokecherry cuttings as one of the cuttings I pulled up has started to root already.

[dbltree]

The rooting hormone is working on the chokecherry cuttings as one of the cuttings I pulled up has started to root already.



So about a week till it started a root?

Exactly what all did you do here Phil?

Stick the cutting in a glass of water and root hormone?

Explain the process for us... ;)

[letemgrow]

So about a week till it started a root?

Exactly what all did you do here Phil?

Stick the cutting in a glass of water and root hormone?

Explain the process for us...






I dipped the cuttings into water and then miracle gro rooting horomone, and potted them in a peat based potting mix, placed them in a warm south window and kept them moist.

I would say I pulled the first one up after a couple weeks and the others now have started to put on leaves as of yesterday.

My guess is some cuttings are much easier than others and shrubs or small trees are probably way easier.

I am going to get some eastern wahoo cuttings this week and do the same things to them.

[LoessHillsArcher]

Any best time to harvest the cuttings, or methods to harvest the cuttings?

Also we planted out field screen of willows this past spring, they started growing like weeds but then the deer destroyed them eating them to the ground! They did come back as the summer went on but deer seemed to love chomping on them.

[letemgrow]

I think now is the best time to get the cuttings or maybe in late Janurary. I was just dinking around with some trees I threw away from this past fall's planting and decided to take some cuttings and see what they would do.

[dbltree]

It's going to be a busy spring here at the Doubletree this year! I have 3800+ trees ordered that will need to be planted ASAP when they arrive!

I applied for and recieved 75% cost share through the REAP program so I will follow my IDNR District Foresters Forest Stewardship Planting Plan.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style='font-size: 11pt'>Owners Objectives:</span> Establish a hardwood forest to grow high quality lumber, to enhance water quality and provide high quality wildlife habitat and aesthetic benefits.

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>Site Prep:</span> Whenever possible, the area should be mowed in late summer to faciltate row layout and spraying. Rows will be laid out on 10 foor centers. Accurate row spacing is important for future maintenance. While existing vegetation is still green, a 4 foot wide band of herbicide will be sprayed over the row center. Recommended herbicides are 2% Roundup and 3 # Princep and 3# Pendulam (per treated acre)

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>Planting: </span>Trees should be planted as early in the spring as possible.Trees will be planted 7 feet apart in the row: rows will be 10 feet apart(600 trees per acre).In areas with existing trees, hand planting may be necessary. Trees will be planted about 15 feet apart (200 trees per acre)
Primary hardwood trees to plant include wite oak, red oak, bur oak, swamp white oak, cherry and pin oak. A variety of other hardwoods and shrubs could be added. Diversity is strongly encouraged.

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>Weed Control:</span> <span style="color: #FF0000">Control of competeting vegetation is critical to the sucess of any tree planting</span>!
Herbicide bands will be applied over the row according to labeled directions every year for at least 2 addictional years. the area between the rows must be mowed to control competing vegetation, normally 2-3 times per year.

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>Protection:</span>Trees must be protected from fire and grazing for 20 years if REAP funds are used.</div></div>

I ordered the following:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style='font-size: 11pt'>Swamp White Oak
Bur oak
Pin Oak
Red Oak
Bur-English Hybrid oaks
Bur-gambel Hybrid oaks
Dwarf Chinkapin Oak
Red Cedar
Silky Dogwood
Wild Plum
Nannyberry
Hazelnut</span>
</div></div>

I've already booked the tree planter from my county conservation board and I just need to pick up some herbicide before spring.

I'll use a combination of Roundup, AS Surflan and Princep on new seedlings and then follow up with Oust and Princep in subsequent years.

I will mark rows with tree flag markers to keep rows straight and easy to mow between. Some I will plant rye or clover between and as the oaks start to grow I have a heckuva a lot of fence to put up! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

I've been scouting old rolls of woven wire so the only thing required is some good old fashioned hard work and a pair of wire cutters... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Right now I'm clearing cull trees from areas I want to convert/plant to hardwoods like this spot:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/CullTrees.jpg

Just a reminder if your planting shrubs or trees, you can create a natural funnel by planting 2-4 rows of trees and leaving a 20 foot space between something like this:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/CedarAlly.jpg

Deer will follow it like a puppy on a string! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Springs not far off...can't wait! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

Doubletree-where are you getting your dwarf chinkapin oaks from.Have fun planting.



Oikos Tree Crops - Dwarf Chinkapin Oak (http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/product.asp?numRecordPosition=8&P_ID=416&strPageHistory=cat&strKeywords=&SearchFor=&PT_ID=69)

If anyone becomes aware of another/better source please let me know but this tree is somewhat rare and difficult to find.

As more landowners find out that in can yield very sweet acorns in only a fee years...I suspect it may sell out quickly!

Morse Nursery recently added DCO to their plant list but quanties are limited and expensive in small numbers.

Morse Nursery - Dwarf Chinkapin Source (http://www.morsenursery.com/index.php?cPath=1&pID=1069)

Letmgrow sent me this link but they don't appear to have any in stock.

LINCOLN-OAKES NURSERIES (http://www.lincolnoakes.com/content/view/82/98/)


Quote:
Prairie Pioneer™ Dwarf Chinkapin Oak - Quercus prinoides ‘Fort Lincoln’

Dwarf Chinkapin Oak grows typically as a multi-stemmed, suckering, large shrub or small tree, 6 - 16 feet in height. It is native in the eastern U.S. as far west as southeastern Minnesota, eastern Nebraska and Texas.

Prairie Pioneer™ is a seedling selection grown from seed collected from a native stand in southeast Nebraska by Greg Morgenson, manager of Lincoln-Oakes Nurseries, Bismarck, ND. This novel, small-statured, tree-like cultivar is collaboratively released by NDSU and may reach 24-28 feet in height at maturity.

It has withstood -35 to -40◦F numerous times in Bismarck, ND, and therefore is hardy in zone 4, and potentially zone 3b as well. Prairie Pioneer™ was selected for its dark green, very lustrous foliage and upright growth habit easily trained to a single stem. The leaves vary from 2 - 4 ½ inches long, ovate-oblong to obovate, acute tipped and wedge-shaped at base, with 4 - 6 shallow undulate to dentate teeth on each side.

The lustrous foliage is somewhat reminiscent of the leaf quality on broadleaf evergreen holly species. The underside of the leaves is finely tomentose and lighter colored. In spring, trees are covered with yellow male catkins before leaves emerge, and sessile acorns are produced if a suitable white oak member species is in the area for pollination. Fall color is typically yellow to tannish-brown.

Propagation is by side grafting on containerized seedlings of chinkapin oak (Q. muehlenbergii), swamp white oak (Q. bicolor) or preferably, bur oak, if proven to be compatible. Prairie Pioneer™ merits attention as a dense, quality-foliaged small tree for residential landscapes and various sites where large trees are unsuitable.






These are some pics of PassThru's DWARF CHINKAPIN OAK and you can see this is more like a shrub then a tree but laden with acorns!

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t83/PassThruPhotos/DwarfChinkapinOak001.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t83/PassThruPhotos/DwarfChinkapinOak003.jpg

Current Nebraska Champion Tree - Oak, Dwarf Chinkapin (http://www.nfs.unl.edu/championtree/championtreeview.asp?championtreeid=58)

http://www.nfs.unl.edu/graphics/ChampionTree/oakdwarfchinkapin-salem-2001.jpg

Oak ID Key (http://www.livinglandsandwaters.org/milliontrees/oakacorn_id.pdf)

True Nature Farm - Dwarf Chinkapin Oak seedlings (http://truenaturefarm.com/treecatalog.html)

RPM Southern Hardwoods (http://www.rpmecosystems.com/pdf/South_catalog.pdf)

[letemgrow]

Dwarf chinkapin's sure are hard to find and hopefully some other sources will come up in the next few years. Every place with them seems to sell out quickly.

That is going to be a lot of work this year Paul!!! 3800 trees!!!

[dbltree]

Since these oaks are sort of like a shrub,,even when fully mature, can the deer mow em down?



They get 20 feet tall so no...deer can't hurt them when mature.

When young they are just as vulnerable as any oak or young tree.

They will have to have some fencing around them or they get killed for sure!

This is a mature tree

http://www.nfs.unl.edu/graphics/ChampionTree/oakdwarfchinkapin-salem-2001.jpg

[Joey Rott]

I just had a box full of seeds/acorns arrive yesterday. I decided to try another avenue this year and plant with seed. I ordered a few pounds of acorns from a variety of oaks, some chesnuts, apple and pine seeds. Most of the germination rates are supposed to be above 90%. A few of the acorns were already sprouting.

I'm soaking them right now and plan on planting them in a month or so, or until they start to sprout. I'm taking pictures, so i'll be posting those in a month or so.

[letemgrow]

I just had a box full of seeds/acorns arrive yesterday. I decided to try another avenue this year and plant with seed. I ordered a few pounds of acorns from a variety of oaks, some chesnuts, apple and pine seeds. Most of the germination rates are supposed to be above 90%. A few of the acorns were already sprouting.

I'm soaking them right now and plan on planting them in a month or so, or until they start to sprout. I'm taking pictures, so i'll be posting those in a month or so.






Personally I prefer seeds instead of bare root transplants. What type of oak seeds did you get?? The white oaks start to sprout soon after dropping in the fall and I would be interested to see how they store white oaks till now if you received some of them.

[Joey Rott]

I got Bur, White and Sawtooth. It's funny you mentioned the white oaks sprouting, because they were the main ones that were sprouting. A few of the Sawtooths were just starting to peek out but not nearly as much as the whites.

I hoping to have more success with the seeds. Most of the seedlings I planted last year had transplant shock, and with temps reaching over 100 degrees in the summer and lacking water, I lost more than I would've liked. I'm thinking that I can get a good root base with the seeds, and without the transplant shock, possible have better survival rates through the hot & dry summer weather here in KS.

Luckily, I rarely see any squirrels on my property and occasional deer only come around at night. So I think the potential problems of animals digging them up, will be low.

[southfork]

That picture was taken about 15 miles from my house, i'll have to look around to see if I can see any dwarf chinkapin trees

http://www.nfs.unl.edu/graphics/ChampionTree/oakdwarfchinkapin-salem-2001.jpg

[/quote]

[dbltree]

That picture was taken about 15 miles from my house, i'll have to look around to see if I can see any dwarf chinkapin trees



Sweet! We might have to enlist you as an "acorn collector" this fall...

[Joey Rott]

Where did you get them from Joey?? I would like to call them and see how they have stored the seeds till now from this past fall.


I bought mine from Sheffields. http://www.sheffields.com/ I can't say I know a lot about them. I read a few online reviews which seemed to be good. I would be interested to see how they're stored as well.

dbltree.. I might have to take you up on that. There aren't any white oaks close to my house, so it's tough to get them locally. There are oaks along the river, but i'm pretty sure they're all bur.

[dbltree]

Oat wilt is something we all need to be aware of an be cautious of unknowingly encouraging it. We spend a lot of time and money planting oaks, the last thing we need is to be the cause of oak wilt mortality.

Oak wilt spreads by a number of ways but here's a couple

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">upper pathway. Long distance spread of oak wilt occurs when nitidulid beetles carry spores of the fungus from spore mats on infected trees to wounds on healthy trees, causing infection and death of the tree. Time from infection to mortality may be very short for red oaks and Texas live oak, or many years for members of the white oak group.

Lower pathway. Local spread of oak wilt occurs when the fungus travels through the interconnected roots of infected and healthy trees. </div></div>

Since we do active TSI, edgefeathering, hingecutting etc., etc. we have to be careful not to injure oaks opening up the possiblity of infection via beetles.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Avoid injuring healthy trees
Trees with fresh wounds outside existing oak wilt centers are visited by beetles transporting spores of the fungus. Because open wounds create avenues for infection, damage to trees from construction, pruning or severe storms may lead to new infection centers. Avoid injury to oaks during favorable conditions for infection, which in the North occur in spring and early summer, when spore mats are present, and the beetles are flying.

Favorable conditions usually occur between April 15 and July 1 in the Lake States, and over a correspondingly longer period of time to the South. In Texas, avoid damage to oak trees from February through June.
</div></div>

Just be aware and follow guidelines in the supporting links for controlling the spread of disease.

Identify, Prevent, and Control Oak Wilt (http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/howtos/ht_oakwilt/toc.htm#how)

Oak Wilt in Wisconsin: Biology and Management (http://dnr.wi.gov/forestry/fh/oakWilt/)

OAK WILT (http://plantclinic.cornell.edu/Oak%20Wilt%20Announcement.html)

Oak Wilt in Minnesota (http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/naturalresources/DD3174.html)

Oak Wilt - Iowa State Extension Service (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/SUL15.pdf)

EIGHT STEP PROGRAM TO OAK WILT MANAGEMENT (http://plantpathology.tamu.edu/Texlab/oakwilt.html)

[dbltree]

I have a question about spraying either Princep or Oust on seedlings I planted last fall. What effect does rain have on these premergent herbicides? Do I have to be careful not to spray before a rain?



No...rain will help incorporate these residual acting herbicides into the top soil surface where they will prohibit weed seeds from germinating.

Herbicides like roundup or Select work through the leaves so those types we don't want to apply just before a rain.. :)

[dbltree]

I am going to try and transplant some small red cedars this weekend from a grassy field. I will replanting them along a fenceline that I hope one day will provide a screen from the road. Any hints or secrets I should know? I have replanted white pines in the past but never cedars. Thanks



I haven't personally transplanted any but I know several people have done it with a high degree of sucess!

As with any bare root trees...do NOT let the roots dry out!! Even minutes in the open air can kill a tree of any kind so keep the roots dampened or in a bucket of water if need be and get them re-planted ASAP!

Let us know how this works out for you but they should do great!

[letemgrow]

One way to keep roots moist is to put some wet sawdust in a garbage bag and as you dig the trees immediately put the roots into the sawdust. Depending on how many you're digging, have extra sawdust and water to add as the bag fills up. Buckets of water also work but can be messy and heavy to carry around.




I shred my junk mail at the house and wet those down and use those to transport the trees.

[dbltree]

Well I just finished planting all the seedlings last night. Got them in right before some snow came in early this morning. Have about 4" so far and expect another 2-3". The good thing is that it's a really wet snow with the temperature at 33, and should all melt pretty quick as it's supposed to be up to 50 this afternoon.

It was the 1st time I ordered Cedar Seedlings from Coldstream Farms. They only offer 2 yr old bareroots. They had some massive roots systems with most of them 12-18" long and thick with roots.

Dang! Wish I had mine all planted!! Sounds like you had perfect weather (for the trees). Dry, windy sunny days really dries roots out so cloudy calm days are actually better planting days.

The snow will help keep the soil moist and should help settle the soil around them.

Keep us posted on how they do this year Joey! :)

[dbltree]

The first seedlings of the year arrived Friday at my place from Oikos Tree Crops (http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/home.asp?cookiecheck=yes&)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/OkiosSeedlings.jpg

Dwarf Chinkipin Oaks (http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/product.asp?numRecordPosition=9&P_ID=416&strPageHistory=cat&strKeywords=&SearchFor=&PT_ID=69)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/DwarfChinkapinOaks.jpg

The seedlings come in small paper pots which really helps to keep bare roots from drying out.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/PlantableTubes.jpg

The bottom of the tube is open so all one has to do is plant it...pot and all!
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/ExposedRoot.jpg

[dbltree]

I pooled and order to get the DCO's at a huge discount compared to smaller quanties so some I planted and the rest I heeled in until others can pick them up.

"Heeling in" is something one pretty much has to do with any seedlings or bareroot trees unless your prepared to plant them right after arrival or you have cool storage such as a walk in cooler.

I usually dig a small trench and lay the seedlings or small trees in it

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/HeelinginaTrench.jpg

Then I cover and pack the soil down firmly

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Packed.jpg

and in my case I covered them with chicken wire to keep the rabbits away from them and water them well.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/RabbitProof.jpg

I thought I would try some fertilizer tablets, some water gel (for holding moisture on bare roots) and I bought one "tree mat" just to compare to other possibles for holding down weeds.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/WatergelandFertilizer.jpg

[letemgrow]

Looks good Paul!!!

I like that water gel, I have a couple bags of it myself and one bag will easily make a full 5-gallon bucket full of dip. That will help a lot of bare root trees do well!!!

[dbltree]

It's a simple matter to plant the tiny oaks in the paper pots, just by making a small slit in the soil with a shovel or dibble bar.

I planted some in my "way to large lawn" where I can monitor growth and "baby" them a bit, so I made sure to fence them to keep the rabbits at bay.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/FencedSeedling.jpg

My soil is pretty acidic so I added pell lime, a fertilizer tablet about 2" from the roots and a flag marker to hold up the wire (and keep me from mowing them over)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Marker.jpg

One tree I cut a slit in the tree mat and slipped it over the tree

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/TreeMat.jpg

Then weighted it down with some "handy logs"

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/MatnFence.jpg

The problem with mats, newspaper, carpet and sometimes even mulch is that mice can burrow underneath and then girdle the tree.

Using a small tree tube rather then the fence would work well to slip thru the mat to keep mice out.

letemgrow has had good success using the short but double wide tubes to protect small seedlings.

Tree Pro (http://www.treepro.com/index.html) has all types and sizes of tubes with 24" tubes running from $1.50 up to 4.00 depending on width.

Tubes are too expensive for me to use them enmasse on thousands of seedlings but they are fun to play around with when planting a few seedlings like these Dwarf Chinkapins.

***NOTE*** our new software only allows 4 pics per post, so be sure to flip back up to previous posts....

[letemgrow]

I like to buy the 4 foot tall double wides and cut them down in 1/2 or 1/4ths as that usually makes them cheaper per foot.

Some of those DCO's look like they are well over 6" tall already which I was not expecting and that is good news!!!!

[Joey Rott]

Thanks for posting those pictures Dbltree. I plan on ordering a few hybrid oaks for my yard here shortly... and it's good to know what to expect. Those paper pots look pretty slick.

I planted a couple hundred or so, bur oak acorns over the weekend. Almost every one was shooting out a taproot. All of the seeds/acorns have been stratifying now for about a month.. and virtually everything has sprouted, except for the chinese chestnuts. Only about a dozen of the 150 or so have started the taproot. They probably just take a little longer.

[dbltree]

All of the seeds/acorns have been stratifying now for about a month.. and virtually everything has sprouted,

Can you elaborate on that sunject a little Joey?

Most white oak acorns need to be planted in the fall (bur oaks are of the white oak species)

Curious how you stored the acorns and how you are stratifying them??

Here's some links on stratification for those wondering what it means.


In horticulture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horticulture), stratification is the process of pretreating seeds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seed) to simulate natural conditions that a seed must endure before germination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germination). Many seed species have what is called an embryonic dormancy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormancy) and generally speaking will not sprout until this dormancy is broken.

Example:
For seeds of trees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree) and shrubs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrub) from temperate climates, stratification involves soaking and chilling seeds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seed) prior to sowing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sowing). This simulates natural conditions where the seeds would remain through a winter on cold, wet ground (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil). Seeds will usually germinate promptly and uniformly after stratification. Unstratified seeds may take up to two years to germinate, if they do so at all.
In the wild, seed dormancy is usually overcome by the seed spending time in the ground through a winter period and having their hard seed coat softened up by frost and weathering action. By doing so the seed is undergoing a natural form of "cold stratification" or pretreatment. This cold moist period triggers the seed's embryo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo), its growth and subsequent expansion eventually break through the softened seed coat in its search for sun and nutrients.



What Is Stratified Seed? (http://www.kansasforests.org/conservation/faq/stratification.shtml)

Stratification of Seeds (http://www.emmitsburg.net/gardens/articles/adams/2002/stratification_of_seeds.htm)

Overcoming Seed Dormancy: Trees and Shrubs (http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/hil-8704.html)
Cold Stratification (http://www.alchemy-works.com/fall_planting.html)

[Joey Rott]

I purchased these acorns & seeds from a supplier called Sheffields, so I wasn't involved in storing them or know what they did to store them over the winter.

http://www.sheffields.com/

Once I received them, I soaked them in water for a day and then placed then on damp paper towels inside ziplock bags. Then I put them downstairs in a cool environment to start the Statification Process. Some started to sprout within a week and others, like the Chestnuts are still waiting to sprout.

One thing I learned when stratifying them is to keep them in a lighted area and don't cover the acorns/seeds. Some of the acorns were under the papertowel, and they ended up getting mold, where most of the ones exposed to the light didn't. Besides acorns and Chestnuts, I order Austrian Pine Seeds and Wild Apple. Within 2-3 weeks, probably 90% of the pine seeds are sprouting, so I planted those 1st.

Right now, most of the remaining acorns/seeds are sitting in a moist multch bed, indoors. After 30 days, mold started to grow on most of everything, so I cleaned them off, put them in some miracle grow soil and haven't noticed the mold problem anymore. Hopefully I'll be able to plant the rest in the ground within the next couple of weeks.

I'm in a testing phase this year to see what kind of results i'll get by going this route, vs seedlings. It's definately less costs involved, planting is a breeze, and i'm hoping the transplant shock won't be a big factor like it can be with bareroot. The biggest question is will I get good enough success rates to justify going this route...

[dbltree]

put them in some miracle grow soil

Are you going to let them grow some and then transplant or just let them sprout and go ahead and plant the "sprouted" acorn or seed?

It surely is a whole lot more cost effective to plant acorns/seeds then seedlings! :way:

[Joey Rott]

Are you going to let them grow some and then transplant or just let them sprout and go ahead and plant the "sprouted" acorn or seed?


My goal is to put them in the miracle grow just long enough to sprout...or until I have the time to plant them. There are a handful that are shooting up 1-2" stems out of the soil, so I'll hopefully be able to plant those real soon.

[dbltree]

My goal is to put them in the miracle grow just long enough to sprout...or until I have the time to plant them. There are a handful that are shooting up 1-2" stems out of the soil, so I'll hopefully be able to plant those real soon.

Thanks Joey! Keep us posted on how these plants do and the mortality rate compared to planting seedlings.

Next time we have a good crop of white oak acorns I'll send you some...:)

[letemgrow]

Can you elaborate on that sunject a little Joey?

Most white oak acorns need to be planted in the fall (bur oaks are of the white oak species)

Curious how you stored the acorns and how you are stratifying them??




My guess is they must have stored them pretty quickly just above freezing or maybe a little warmer. There may be a temp that the white oaks will not perish at or attempt to send out the taproot so they can be stored. I would sure like to find out how they did it too!!!

[dbltree]

Little seedlings are best protected with rabbit/mouse proof screen or tubes but eventually they grow into something hormone charged bucks find irrisistable

That being said...don't wait to long to get some fencing around them or one day the tiny oaks you worked so hard to plant will be thrashed to pieces!

My son helped me drag some old rolls of woven wire up outta the woods where they have been laying for years after a line fence was replaced.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Rollofdeerfence.jpg

the price is right that's for sure!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Oldwirefortreefence.jpg

It usually doesn't take to much to keep rampaging bucks away from young saplings so even 3 ft high wire will be enough.

If you have trees that deer will forage on as well (such as apples) then a higher fence or use of steel posts to lift fence up may be required.

This is cattle country here in SE Iowa so there is plenty of old fencing laying around that one can usually get for the asking.

Of course if you live in a state with "bambi" bucks...you may not need fencing...:moon::D

[letemgrow]

Of course if you live in a state with "bambi" bucks...you may not need fencing...:moon::D

Just keep rubbing it in why don't ya :)

You are right on, being able to get old woven wire fence is pretty easy to come by in cattle country. I used free wire and posts to fence in all 20 of the new apple trees I put out on the farm (15 feet of wire each). I left a 12-16 inch tube at the base to keep rodents off since I already had them and will just raise up the fence about a 1-1.5 feet off the ground so it should be tall enough that deer cannot reach over it to nibble on the apple trees.

[letemgrow]

I only lost one tree last year with the shorter tubes, but anything bigger, and the rodents will make a nice little nest in the tubes especially if the tubes are close to a food source. Such as a giant hickory tree. That is what I found in that tube, a nest about 8 inches deep with a pile of hickory nuts in it and the american chestnut looked like a beaver was living in there. That was the tallest tube I had out though 18" ~ all the shorter tubes close by were not touched at all so I learned a valuable lesson there.

[dbltree]

the rodents will make a nice little nest in the tubes

Been there done that...expensive lesson learned on my first apple trees...:(

I think they don't feel so safe in the shorter ones...;)

[letemgrow]

Been there done that...expensive lesson learned on my first apple trees...:(

I think they don't feel so safe in the shorter ones...;)


I have had the 4 foot tubes on morse apple trees and they are still doing great, a couple were chewed on just a bit, but I kept the vegetation down. I would not recommend it though, but smaller tubes with bare ground around them works great for me.

[dbltree]

I received my hybrid bur-english and bur-gambel oak seedlings from the University of Idaho Nursery (http://seedlings.uidaho.com/) and the instructions warn against planting before thawing the seedlings first! First time I have ran into that but they store these seedlings at or below freezing and planting before they are fully thawed could kill the seedlings.

If seedlings are exposed to sunlight and begin photosynthesis with frozen roots, they will be unable to pull up water and the new seedlings will die.

One needs to let the seedlings thaw in a dark cool place before planting or store them in a cooler to keep them longer. I heeled some in and then covered them to keep them out of the sunlight.

They also have some different planting instructions and the use of a dibble bar is not recommend, nor is "stomping" the soil around the roots as one would normally do with bare root trees.

They have clear planting instructions here:

UI Planting Instructions (http://seedlings.uidaho.com/Content/Assets/Plant%20Your%20Seedlings%20Right%202a.pdf)

They arrive in bags of 5 clearly marked

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/UIOakSeedlings.jpg

The little root balls are the best I have seen so far with little danger of roots drying out while planting.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IdahoNurserySeedling.jpg

These are some I heeled into a small trench and covered until they can be planted

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/HybridUIOaks.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/BurenglishOak.jpg

[dbltree]

For this type of seedling I dug small holes

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Plantinghole.jpg

and then just lightly tamped the loosened soil around and over the root ball

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Lightlytamp.jpg

I flagged the trees which were being planted in cleared and hinge cut areas.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/PlantedOak.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Plantedinhingecuts.jpg

[dbltree]

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Plantedclearcut.jpg

I'll go back and spray around these using the "bucket method" to cover them if they bud out before hand.

In some areas I'll plant some of these with the treeplanter but I need to let out soggy ground dry out a bit first... ;)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Markedplantings.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/S5002165.jpg

[Joey Rott]

Awesome. Thanks for posting those pics. Looks like they have some great root systems...Hopefully they work out well for you.

[dbltree]

I picked up nearly 4000 seedlings from the State Forest Nursery Monday only to get home and find out they shorted me at least 800 seedlings that I had paid for!!

They use use prisoners there and they threw the seedlings in the truck and I didn't count or question them so I'll see what the office says when I call.

At any rate...count them when they arrive or if you pick them up!

They store the seedlings in a huge cooler with the bare root seedlings in plastic bags inside big white bags like this.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/StateNurserySeedlings.jpg

I hand planted some Swamp Wite Oaks in some low areas that I hinged locusts, maples and box elders. It's CRITICAL to keep bare root seedlings in water!!! Bare roots can dry out in minutes killing a seedling before it ever hits the soil, so be sure to carry seedlings in a bucket of water or a planting bag.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/HandPlanting.jpg

The oak seedlings had very large root systems so I used a shovel rather then the dibble bar and planted the seedlings in amongst the downed tops and marked with flags.

The rest of the seedlings will be planted with the tree planter and my son is eager to get started!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/TreePlanter.jpg

I'll add more pics of using the planter which takes a little practice at first to get timing down and one has to hang onto the seedling until wheels close around it or it will bury the whole seedling!

Stay Tuned! :)

[letemgrow]

Looking good Paul!!!

I potted the burxenglish oaks so I shall see how that works out. When they arrived I did not notice any being frozen.

[dbltree]

Now that our tree planting "adventure" is complete for 2009 I thought I would post more complete info and pics on using a tree planter and problems encountered.
This one was easily handled by my 30 hp JD 790
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/TreePlanter1.jpg
I'm told one can end up with a sore stiff back sitting in this seat all day...
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/TreePlanter2.jpg
The slot area allows one to tuck the bare root seedlings, especially larger ones into and slide them into the furrow.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/TreePlanter4.jpg
The the operator must hang onto the seedling until it is directly beneath and the packer wheels close the soil around the seedling. Releasing it to soon will just tip the seedling over and bury it.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Treeplanter3.jpg

[dbltree]

In good dry soils the furrow should look like this, tightly closed around the seedlings.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Dryground.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Plantedoak-1.jpg
However we received an 1 inch of rain on Monday and even though we waited until Wed./Thurs, areas of our heavy clay soils were still like planting "peanut butter" and the sticky gooey mess plugged the plow and caked the packer wheels constantly.
This left a poorly closed furrow....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Plantingfurrow.jpg
Some places it didn't close at all
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Furrow.jpg

[dbltree]

When the furrow doesn't close, the seedling roots are left exposed and sometimes dragged up on top.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Openfurrow.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Exposedseedling.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Mis-coveredseedling.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/WetSoil.jpg

[dbltree]

Even with decent soil conditions the packer wheels do not fully compress the furrow and although you can not see it, there is an air pocket below which spells certain doom to the bare root seedlings.
We planted for awhile then took time to go back and pack soil around each and every seedling...all 4000 of them!
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Tampingseedlings.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Plantedproperly.jpg
It pays to have something to scrape mud, grass, roots and debris off the plow and packer wheels.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Barforcleaning.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/PluggedPackerWheel.jpg

[dbltree]

There are planter boxes on either side of the operator, both of which had holes in them so we poured water and root gel (to hold moisture to the bare roots) into the plastic bags so that the roots wouldn't dry out during the planting process.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Seedlingsinwaterwithgel-1.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/PlanterBoxes.jpg
Some of the oaks and hazelnuts had huge tangled root systems that made it difficult to untangle and plant.
These are red oak seedlings
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/RedOakRoots.jpg
Hazelnuts
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Plantinghazelnut.jpg

[dbltree]

The small red cedars were the easiest to plant
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/PlantingRedCedars.jpg
Most of our planting was done on brome sod
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Plantinginsod.jpg
So now we'll go back and spray a combination of Select 2-EC to kill the existing sod and Surflan A.S. to act as a residual
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/SelectandSurflan.jpg
Select (clethodim) or generic versions such as Arrow should be applied at 6-8 ounces per acre along with 1% of finished volume of crop oil.
Arrow 2 EC Label (http://www.greenbook.net/Docs/Label/L76454.pdf)
Surflan (Oryzalin )can be applied at 2-4 quarts per acre for residual weed control and both will be tank mixed in a back pack sprayer so I can direct spray around the base of trees rather then over the top.
Oryzalin 4 A.S Label (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld7FQ000.pdf)
After seedlings are well established and soil has settled around root systems I'll use Oust for longer/better residual weed control.

[dbltree]

The following are some videos of the planting process
Planting red cedars
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/th_Plantedcedarsvideo.jpg (http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/?action=view&current=Plantedcedarsvideo.flv)
Planting hazelnuts
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/th_Hazelnutplantingvideo1.jpg (http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/?action=view&current=Hazelnutplantingvideo1.flv)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/th_Hazelnutplantingvideo2.jpg (http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/?action=view&current=Hazelnutplantingvideo2.flv)
It's important for the driver to keep a close eye on how the operator is doing and the foot throttle allowed me to slow up when he had problems with tangled roots or dividing a clump of seedlings.
Our planting plan called for 600 trees per acre planted at roughly 7 foot apart in rows 10 foot apart and after awhile it became easy for me to regulate the tractor speed to match the planting speed which varied depending on the type of seedlings.
I couldn't have done this planting project without the help of my son who worked tirelessly to get the seedlings in the ground.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/TiredHelp.jpg

[letemgrow]

looks good Paul!!!! It will be interesting to see the survival rate next year on them.

[Joey Rott]

Nice looking planting setup there Paul. Looks like it sure saves some time in comparison to the ole dibble bar!

In the past week, the chesnuts are finally starting to show. I kept about a 1/2 pound of chesnuts & sowed them in a 2" seedbed, about 2 months ago. I'll be planting these closer to the house in rows. My plan is to someday have a orchard with various types of nut trees.

I have a few 3ft tree tubes left over from last year. If I remember right, I read last year where it was best to drill holes in the tubes, when using them for chestnuts?

[letemgrow]

It's better all around for air flow and hardening off for the winter if they have holes in the tubes. I have had trees die back in tubes that did not have good air flow. With chestnuts, I would not use a small diamater tube since they have a compound leaf structure. They need more room to grow in the tubes.

[Joey Rott]

Thanks for the info. With the tubes I have, you can connect 2 together to make it double-wide. I'll give that a try.

[letemgrow]

Thanks for the info. With the tubes I have, you can connect 2 together to make it double-wide. I'll give that a try.



That would be perfect, make sure to keep the vegetation down around the tubes so the rodents do not find the tubes as an inviting home. I like to spray about a 4 foot circle around the tubes to keep it as bare dirt. That seems to work well for me. Others just use aluminum window screens instead of the tubes so that may be another route to look into if you run out of tubes. Then you can compare the differences and see what works best for your situation.

[dbltree]

I checked on my seedlings roughly a month after planting and for the most part they appear to be off and running! We have a long hot summer ahead however and mortaility can be high if timely rains don't nourish the tiny root systems.

It appears that right now perhaps 98% of the oak seedlings are alive and well but I'll keep and eye on them though out the summer. The first trees are from the Iowa State Forest Nursery in Ames...

Burr Oak seedling

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Buroakseedling.jpg

Pin Oak seedling on May 12 2009

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/PinOakseedlingmay12-09.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/PinOakseedling.jpg

Red Oak seedling

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Redoakseedling.jpg

[dbltree]

The red cedars always look awful and it's difficult to tell at first so I'm not sure about mortality yet

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/RedCedarseedling.jpg

The hybrid oaks from Idaho's University Nursery also appear to be doing great!

Bur X English Oak seedling May 12th 2009

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/BurenglishoakMay1209.jpg

Bur X Gambel Oak seedling May 12th 2009

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/BurgambeloakMay1209.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Hybridoakspring09.jpg

[dbltree]

The Dwarf Chinkapin Oaks from Okios Tree Crops in Michigan have done well but I noticed that some "woke" up early...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/DCOseedling.jpg

While others are slower in shaking off their winter sleep...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/DCOwakingup.jpg

The DCO's come in paper pots and I have noticed that deer (or something) perhaps out of curiosity will pull the carboard out of the ground, so better to make sure it's not sticking up.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/May1209DwarfChinkapinOak.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/May12oakseedlings.jpg

[dbltree]

I decided to utilize some of my tree plantings for food plots rather them mow them all summer. I use a tiller which is shallow tillage so unlikely to harm tree roots systems and planting oats/clover, brassicas or cereal grains in fall will ensure little competition with new seedlings.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Foodplotsintreeplanting.jpg

In a 3 year old planting near the road I planted Egyptian Wheat , so we'll see how that works out this summer and pros/cons of doing so...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/EWplantingaroundtrees.jpg

On another note I planted some Sargent Crab and hawthorn nearly 13 years ago but apparantly they do not like my heavy clay soils as they have never grown more then a few feet tall.

Sargent Crab

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/SargentCrab.jpg

Hawthorn

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Hawthorne.jpg

Some things just don't work well in certain soils and areas so it pays to do some research before investing time and money into your tree planting....

[letemgrow]

Looks good Paul!! I noticed on my burxenglish oak hybrids that they vary in leaf shape and growth rates. One REALLYtook off and has grown over 6 inches already while the others are in that 2-3 inch range.

[letemgrow]

Here are some pics of my newest seedlings. The Black Chokeberry and Common Chokecherry came from Lincoln Oakes. They were 4-5 foot tall trees for right at a buck!!! I trimmed the roots and the tops for ease of planting. They have easily put on 10 inches of growth already this year.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/BlackChokeberry.jpg

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/CommonChokecherry.jpg

[letemgrow]

These are a few of the burxenglish oaks that I planted in root maker containers at the house. You can see the variation in genetics. These trees came from the ID State Nursery.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/BurxEnglishOak.jpg

[letemgrow]

Last but not least my favorites!!! American Chestnuts from the ID State Nursery.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/AmericanChestnut.jpg

[dbltree]

Wow! Those chestnuts look great! Keep us posted on growth progress of all of your plantings....:)

[letemgrow]

Forgot to post a DCO pic from Oikos. They are doing great as well.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/DwarfChinkapinOak.jpg

[Joey Rott]

Great Pictures Guys. It's nice to see exactly what I plan on ordering for next Spring.

I'll try to take some picture updates tonight of some plantings...

[Joey Rott]

I read this on another forum I frequently visit, and thought it was pretty incredible, as it was just 2 years after planting. If you look close enough you can see the little acorns. It's a standard white oak that came from the forestry service in Ontario.

I couldn't believe it.The area I had planted in 2006 one of the white acorns produced a few nuts this year.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Greenhorn/IMG_0630.jpg

[dbltree]

I read this on another forum I frequently visit, and thought it was pretty incredible, as it was just 2 years after planting. If you look close enough you can see the little acorns. It's a standard white oak that came from the forestry service in Ontario.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Greenhorn/IMG_0630.jpg

Those are the kind of trees we want to select acorns from....:way:

[letemgrow]

What a tree!!!

[Joey Rott]

Last but not least my favorites!!! American Chestnuts from the ID State Nursery.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/AmericanChestnut.jpg

What are your thoughts on the possibility of blight with the American Chestnuts? I'd like to get some pure American strains if I knew there was a good probability of them doing fine. I saw on the ID nursery site that they could be "grown in the west blight-free"... so I would assume it depends some on location.

[Joey Rott]

I snapped a few pictures last night. One thing I noticed on nearly 80% of my trees, is that I had some die-back on the limbs. Last summer I had a problem with grasshoppers eating 25-75% of the leaves and some of the bark off the trees, which may have had something to do with it.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m201/kshunter01/Trees05-21-09/Sycamore.jpg

This Sycamore is a great example. It was going great last year and 2-3ft tall, but this year it's all dead except the bottom inch. Most of the Sawtooth are the same way. There is good growth in the bottom couple inches, but it'll take them another year to get the height back.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m201/kshunter01/Trees05-21-09/EnglishOak2.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m201/kshunter01/Trees05-21-09/EnglishOak.jpg
The English and Sawtooth Oaks were probably the most successful types from last year. I had success rates of around 75%. Some of the English Oaks are really shooting out.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m201/kshunter01/Trees05-21-09/cedar1.jpg

Last year I planted 250 Norway Spruce Trees... which ended up being a bad idea. Only 4-5 still alive, so virtually a complete loss. Between the lack of enough water and 100+ heat, it was too much for them. So this year I replaced them with 2 yr transplants from Coldstream. So far they're doing good, and I'm betting I'll have a much better success rate.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m201/kshunter01/Trees05-21-09/RedOak.jpg
I also planted 100 Red Oak Seedlings last year, which also was a bad idea. There are only 5-10 left. I was able to pick up a few large potted Red Oaks last summer for under a $1 each locally, on a closeout sale. Those are all still alive, and doing well this Spring.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m201/kshunter01/Trees05-21-09/BurTransplant.jpg
Last Oct-Nov, I transplanted a handful of Bur Oaks from the nearby river, and they all made it and are doing great.

Probably the biggest thing I've learned is to stick with the hardiest drought/heat tolerant trees from now on. And I will try to look into getting plugs more than bareroot, if available. Last year was even a wetter summer than normal, but it seemed some types still didn't get enough, even with my weekly/bi-weekly bucket watering.

I received a few free Blue Spruce Plugs from the local hardware store that I also planted with the rest of the bareroot Norway seedlings. Most of the Plugs actually made it.

[dbltree]

You might just need to do a little more research on trees that are both winter hardy and drought resistant in your area Joey. I'm just wondering if some of the die back was from winter weather?

Drought is a huge problem for ALL new seedlings and I suspect your area is a little drier then ours here in Iowa.

New seedlings don't have the root system to withstand going without water like established trees but some species are adapted to that.

Like White Swamp Oak is asdapted to wet areas other oaks prefer dry soils and Okios tree crops carries some of those oak species such as :

Hybur Oak — Quercus macrocarpa x virginiana,gambelli,alba (http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/product.asp?numRecordPosition=10&P_ID=675&strPageHistory=cat&strKeywords=&SearchFor=&PT_ID=7)

Keep us posted on progress this summer...:)

[Joey Rott]

You're right, choosing the right oaks will be key. The Bur Oak is the only native oaks in the area. Staying with them and certain Bur hybrids should be good. As soon as the ID state nursery starts accepting new orders for next spring, I'll be putting mine in right away.

I'm just wondering if some of the die back was from winter weather?

I think between the winter & late summer grasshopper damage, it was too much for many of the seedlings. The hoppers became thick for the last month of summer. I even sprayed them with some liquid insecticide containing permethrin, but it had little effect. I'm going to try some more potent stuff like Seven this year. 1 healthy Red Delicious Apple and 2 Hardy Apricot trees, were also lost... once they started to eat the top layer of bark, they were dead pretty quick.

They didn't bother the Cherry, Pear or other natives like Hackberry, Cottonwood, etc trees one bit though.

[letemgrow]

Joey, you should do pretty well with American Chestnuts. The Morton Estate in Nebraska City had giant American Chestnuts that were the size of a giant cottonwood to give you an example of their dimensions. The only thing that took those chestnuts out was a water line they ran through them!!! Not sure what they were thinking on that one.

Here is a pic of one of the stumps. I was so excited to finally see a giant american chestnut, only to find out, it had been cut down a few years before cause of the water line.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/American%20Chestnut/chestnut_stump.jpg

It had already started up another sprout even though it had to be an ancient tree!!

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/American%20Chestnut/chestnut_stump1.jpg

[letemgrow]

My seedlings and seeds seem to be doing pretty well.

2 year old Northern Red from the MDC Nursery. They were listed as x-large 1 year old trees. I order every single oak that they offer as XL in a given year. They are the trees that the best of the 1-year old seedlings and have to have a minimum hieght of usually 30-36 depending on the particular species. One of the northern reds was over 4 foot tall when it arrived as a 1-year old tree!!

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/ExtraLargeNorthernRedOak.jpg

Hybrid oak acorns planted last fall.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/HybridOak.jpg

American Chestnut from the seed.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/AmericanChestnut-1.jpg

[turkeyriver]

For drier climates you might want to try Black Hills Spruce instead of Norway. They are a little slower growing but better adapted to arid conditions.

[Joey Rott]

Joey, you should do pretty well with American Chestnuts. The Morton Estate in Nebraska City had giant American Chestnuts that were the size of a giant cottonwood to give you an example of their dimensions. The only thing that took those chestnuts out was a water line they ran through them!!! Not sure what they were thinking on that one.

Here is a pic of one of the stumps. I was so excited to finally see a giant american chestnut, only to find out, it had been cut down a few years before cause of the water line.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/American%20Chestnut/chestnut_stump.jpg

It had already started up another sprout even though it had to be an ancient tree!!

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/American%20Chestnut/chestnut_stump1.jpg

Dang... Too bad to see a Great Tree like that be taken out because of something like a waterline. You're right, I'm not sure what they were thinking.


For drier climates you might want to try Black Hills Spruce instead of Norway. They are a little slower growing but better adapted to arid conditions.

Thanks, good recommendation. Not sure why I didn't of that those. I bet they would have a good chance around here.

[dbltree]

Normally I reccomend using Oust and roundup the fall before a tree planting and then follow up herbicide control after planting. I didn't get cost share approval until too late and then I had some unusal circumstances that had me unsure exactly where rows would be this spring.

One area my son and I cleared of thorn trees and blackberry brambles this spring before planting and the area was wet and uneven. When we planted, I just headed the tractor and planter wherever I could get between stumps, girdled trees and wet areas.

Long story short, I'm spraying after trees budded out which requires a little care not to spray the tree leaves themselves. Surflan is safe over the top but Oust can damage or even kill new seedlings when sprayed over the top of trees that have leafed out.

Oak seedlings can tolerate Oust but most shrubs cannot, conifers can handle atrazine and even roundup if they have not started growing (mine have :rolleyes: )

At any rate I have mutiple situations requiring different (or allowing) herbicide combinations.

I've been band spraying everything with my 3 gallon backpack sprayer and spraying an atrazine/roundup combo around (not over top) all the red cedar seedlings.

Surflan is a pre-emergent herbcide but Oust is both pre-and post:


DuPont™ Oust<SUP>® is a soil residual herbicide with some knockdown action. It controls susceptible weeds through both post-emergence and pre-emergence (residual) action. DuPont™ Oust® may be applied pre-emergence or post-emergence to the weeds; best results are obtained if application is made before or during the early stages of weed growth. </SUP>
<SUP>
Adequate soil moisture is required for DuPont™ Oust® to be activated so it can provide optimum weed control. Under limited rainfall conditions, DuPont™ Oust® may not provide satisfactory control of hard-to-kill annuals and perennial weeds.
The higher use rates give longer term residual control. The degree of control and duration of effect will vary with the rate of application, soil texture, organic matter content, soil pH, rainfall and other environmental conditions.

When applied as a spray, OUST® XP is absorbed by both
the roots and foliage of plants, rapidly inhibiting the growth
of susceptible weeds.

</SUP>

I used Surflan and select 2-EC on some newly planted oaks but in the area we cleared and the oaks have had plenty of rain to settle soil around the roots I used Surflan and Oust XP at 1 quart and oneounce in 3 gallons of water.

I tried to avoid any contact with the leaves but of course managed to hit a 1/2 dozen out of perhaps a thousand seedlings, so we'll see if they survive or not.

I used no surfactant:


If a surfactant is used with OUST® XP, allowing the spray
to contact tree foliage may injure or kill trees. The user
assumes all responsibility for tree injury if a surfactant is
used with OUST® XP treatments applied after planting.


Obviously Oust is pretty potent stuff which is also why it works so well.

My hope is that it will nuke the blackberries and goldenrod coming up in that planting and then provide residual control.

Oust XP Label (http://www2.dupont.com/Production_Agriculture/en_US/label_msds_info/labels/H65144.pdf)

Oust is in a granular form that requires careful measuring with a this hand deal that is a little like measuring black powder...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/OustMeasure.jpg

I measured one ounce, twist it shut and remove the measuing canister from the bottle.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Oneounce.jpg

The Surflan has a yellow dye in it which really helped to know where I sprayed...

Before....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/OakSeedling.jpg

After...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/OakafterSurflan.jpg

Notice there is no grass in this situation, so I didn't add Select (clethodim)

[dbltree]

So far, it looks like perhaps 5% or less mortality of anyoak seedlings from any source but the red cedar mortaility is very high somewhere betwen 30-40% and that may go up!

Some oaks are still waking up...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/5-28Stillbudding.jpg

by and large they are all doing very well including the hybrid oaks from Idaho

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/WaltsOaks1.jpg

and Dwarf Chinkapin Oaks from Okios Tree Crops

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/S5001956.jpg

This is a 2008 tree planting one year later which shows why follow up herbicide and mowing is needed in new tree plantings...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Treeplantingon80.jpg

As soon as all the new seedlings are sprayed, we'll start on last years...;)

[letemgrow]

Great work Paul!!! Some type of marker is what I need to add when I spray roundup so I can see exactly where I have hit.

[dbltree]

Great work Paul!!! Some type of marker is what I need to add when I spray roundup so I can see exactly where I have hit.

I'm sure you can find dye locally but here's a source and idea of what to ask for

INDICATOR DYE (http://www.keystonepestsolutions.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11&products_id=153)

[dbltree]

Okios Tree Crops (http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/product.asp?P_ID=406&PT_ID=69&strPageHistory=cat) has monthly sales and has Chestnutleaf Oaks on sale if anyone is interested. I enjoy planting different species and this one does well on sandy droughty soils if you happen to have those kind of soil conditions.


Chestnutleaf Oak (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102582527139&s=364&e=001NPBmK2_xjOAX0fZQkuNwGV1MdFVtKLiTy-1KYns1PCKvHFdDa1ZB2_zSZovWagG032JSyJ26rqAx62C9Gjt2 9q-SAUKKV5Dea9s3nupUJ5BNkXlTXIviVI9aTrfailQ4FaBKgB22W Ap9Z1PHVMyAeMJi_eB-2Nnt7enK1JuS_aLGPl2TQw7C6UKKLpDbY3olRnNUjHTbsLRGT0 rSbbjTBgyNH8IpJ5Rhi2oSbMU-oMw=) Quercus castanaefolia 30% off

One of the best species oak trees we grow for fast growth averaging 2-3 ft. per year. Clean foliage, highly vigorous on almost all soil types except water logged soils. Preferred over sawtooth oak for acorn production.

each 3 or more 25 or more each 3 or more 25 or more
6-12" Sale Price: $5.60 $5.25 $2.24 1-2' Sale Price: $7.00 $6.65 $2.94
6-12" List Price: $8.00 $7.50 $3.20 1-2' List Price: $10.00 $9.50 $4.20

http://origin.ih.constantcontact.com/fs053/1102162595985/img/43.jpg?a=1102582527139 Chestnutleaf Oak Acorns

[letemgrow]

Where is that oak native to?? I tried to find some info under the scientifc name and there was not anything on google.

Wikipedia said it is native to Iran which is probably right but anyone can post info on Wikipedia.

[dbltree]

Where is that oak native to?? I tried to find some info under the scientifc name and there was not anything on google.

Wikipedia said it is native to Iran which is probably right but anyone can post info on Wikipedia.

It is from Iran...

Chestnutleaf Oak — Quercus castanaefolia ECOS

Large Acorns-Fastest Growth of All Species Oaks
Chestnutleaf oaks fast growth, clean foliage, and branching at a young age make it an ideal ornamental shade tree oak. Its fast growth and excellent acorn production make it ideal as a wildlife mast tree as well. Grows best in sandy droughty soil. Leaves are very thick and glossy. The acorns are 2 inches long and are produced along the branches on short spurs much like sawtooth oak. Our ECOS strain were two trees selected from over 1000 plants, which showed no winter damage, had the fastest growth rate and was true to the species. Many of the other types we tried were not durable enough here. Ecos averages about 2-4 ft. of growth per year once established. Height to 100 ft. in its native Caucasus Mountains and Iran.

ECOS: Fast-growing pyramidal form with clean chestnut foliage.CA Seed Strain: Fast-growing cross that is similar to Turkey Oak. Hardy to -20°F.
Hardiness -25 °F.

[letemgrow]

How much have your DCO's grown so far Paul?? Some of mine are starting their second growth spurt already!!

[dbltree]

How much have your DCO's grown so far Paul?? Some of mine are starting their second growth spurt already!!

They vary a lot but most look like this one

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/DCO.jpg

These are some white swap oak seedlings from the Iowa State Nursery

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/WhiteswampOak5-25-09.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/WhiteSwampOakseedling.jpg

These are some plantings I sprayed first with a combo of Surflan and Select 2-EC with crop oil concentrate

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/SurflanandSelectherbicide.jpg

if I hadn't sprayed I wouldn't even be able to find these trees! :eek:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Treatedwithsurflanandselect.jpg

This is a hybrid oak that was hand planted and I just sprayed a circle around each one since they are planted randonly rather then in rows...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Surflanselecttreatedoak.jpg

[dbltree]

This is a tree planting properly planted last spring and with good herbicide control...this year...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Treeplantingon80.jpg

The rows and trees are barely visable ad sunlight and nutrients are being sucked away from the seedlings. I went to work mowing between them for the landowner and we hope to get them sprayed yet this summer.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Junemowing.jpg

The brome was nearly shoulder high and took several passes to whack it down! :shock:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/MowingTreePlanting.jpg

Had I not mowed it I'm not sure we could even safely see the rows to have mowed it later and will most likely need several more mowings to keep things under control and rows visable.

Some of the oak seedlings had grown nearly above the shorter weeds in the row itself

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/2ndyrplanting.jpg

Many still struggle for light and like any crop, weeds and grasses rob the seedling of nutrients that can slow it's growth

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/2yroldtrees.jpg
The background in this pic gives you an idea how rapidly that grasses grow in spring and early summer as shown here on June 9 2009

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/TallGrass.jpg

Some of my own plantings were done in a cleared blackberry/brush patch so cool season grasses are not the problem.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/BlackberryBrambles.jpg

The Oust XP and Surflan combo is working well however and the dying blackberries and goldenrod is now apparant

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/SurflanOustafter2weeks.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Dyingweeds.jpg

While the oak seedlings remain healthy

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Oakseedling-1.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/June909Oakseedling.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/June09Oakseedling.jpg

The red cedars I used an atrazine/roundup combo to band spray them and that is also working well

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/RCtreatedwithatrazineandroundup.jpg

Small red cedars seem to struggle the first year and I had high mortaility before spraying

This one is typical, with 80% of the seedling appearing dead but still some green growth indicating it is alive for the time being at least.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/RC6-10-09.jpg

So far the oak and shrub seedlings have only 2-5% mortaility despite a terrific hail storm that pounded many of my tree plantings.
Some of my tree plantings I am going to plant food plots in and tillage works in place of mowing

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/ReadyforHSRyegrass.jpg

I tilled this row and then allowed grasses to regrow and nuked it with roundup

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Sprayedwithrup.jpg

Some of it I planted oats and berseem clover that I will till under later in the summer for fall plots

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Berseemclovernoats6-10.jpg

Low growing food plots like clover, brassicas or cereal grains don't compete like cool season sod forming grasses and can be useful and serve a dula purpose IF your plot is not along a road... ;)

[letemgrow]

Nice work Paul!!

[Joey Rott]

Great Pics Paul!

Also, if you guys haven't checked out the Oikos Site lately... they've got some new pictures up for many of their oaks.

[letemgrow]

Great Pics Paul!

Also, if you guys haven't checked out the Oikos Site lately... they've got some new pictures up for many of their oaks.

Cool!!! I will have to check Oikos out.

[dbltree]

Late June update on my spring tree plantings and use of various herbicides on my tree plantings. All is well with very little mortality, thanks in part to relentless spring rains in southern Iowa this year.

All oaks and shrubs have done very well but the red cedars had high mortality right out of the box and my IDNR Forestor confirmed that everyone had the same result with red cedar seedlings from Ames this year, something that commonly seems to happen. It's a small price to pay however to be able to get large numbers of otherwise healtly robust seedlings at a very low cost.

I treated my Red Cedars with atrazine and glyphosate which has provided very effective season long weed control.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/RedCedarseedlinglateJune.jpg

The cedars look 1/2 alive at best but that is typical sometimes even into the second growing year

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/RCseedling.jpg

Regardless of where I have ordered RC seedlings from, they always look tough the first year

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/RCafteratrazine.jpg

A few years back I ordered the larger size RC seedlings from the Iowa State Nursery and they did the best of any I have every planted, but they were out this year.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/RC6-26-09.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/AtrazineonRedCedar.jpg

The following oak seedlings were sprayed "around not over" with an Oust/Surflan combo using one ounce of Oust XP and one quart of Surflan in my 3 gallon backpack sprayer

Pin Oak
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/PinOakseedling6-26-09.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/OakseedlinglateJune.jpg

Burr oak

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/OakseedlingafterOust.jpg

I band sprayed a narrow band and then mow or till between rows

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/AfterOusttreatment.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/OakSeedling6-26-09.jpg

These are some of my hybrid oaks that I sprayed last and weeds haven't started dying yet

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/HybridOaklateJune.jpg

Dwarf Chinkapin Oak

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/DSC06081.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/DCO6-26-09.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/DSC06080.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/DSC06079.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/DSC06078.jpg

The plantings I sprayed first with Oust/Surflan are showing the effects now, with the seedlings unharmed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/6-26-09OakSeedling.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Seedlingafteroustkill.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Redoak6-26-09.jpg

The blackberries, goldenrod and grasses are toast!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Ousttreatedtreeplanting.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Oustkilled.jpg

Even the tinest oak seedlings are uneffected by the very powerful herbicide however

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Oakafteroust.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/AfterOusttreatment-1.jpg

and some are nearly knee high already!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Kneehighon6-27-09.jpg

We recently ordered more Oust through Townsend Chemical (see the herbicide thread) and it was down to a little over $5 an ounce, making it very affordable! They also said it was no longer a restricted use pesticide which makes it eaiser for anyone to order and use Oust.

It's too powerful to use on many new shrub seedlings but very safe for oaks and conifers as long as roots are well covered at planting.

In very early spring before bud break it's safe to go over the top of oak seedlings at 1-3 ounces per acre but after bud break one needs to direct spray away from leaves... ;)

[letemgrow]

DT,

I am too lazy right now to read up on Oust. What's the recommended dose per seedling and it's a pre emergent herbicide right to keep the weeds suppressed. What all does it control???

[LoessHillsArcher]

You'll have to forgive me if I come up with a handful of questions today...I'm at work with not much going on and have wildlfe plantings on the mind! I was looking up trees listed at the Iowa DNR Forestry and they had one called "Mixed Oak". Said to contain "Red, White, Bur, Pin, and Black in various proportions. Because of the variety it is adaptable to more soil and planting situations". So is this similar to other Hybrid Oaks? Anyone have experience with these trees.

Also how do you get by with just planting the oaks and not using cages or tubes?

[letemgrow]

Those are just a mixture of pure species all in one bundle LHA.

[dbltree]

DT,

I am too lazy right now to read up on Oust. What's the recommended dose per seedling and it's a pre emergent herbicide right to keep the weeds suppressed. What all does it control???

Oust controls a very wide variety of broadleaves and grasses and is my favorite herbicide for this reason. It has powerful residual control as well as very deadly post emergent killing power as you can see by my pics.

Rates vary widely so please read the label before using Oust XP but 1-4 ounces per acre is reccomended for most hardwoods and conifers. it's extremely important to have roots well covered and soil firmly packed and preferably settled by rain before spraying over seedlings.

Best bet to is to apply on late March or early April before planting and then follow up each spring before bud break. In my case I waited until spring rains had settled the soil and then sprayed around (not over) leafed out seedlings.

I used one ounce of Oust XP and one quart of Surflan in my 3 gallon backpack sprayer to give you some idea what was used in the pics above.

Oust XP Label (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld5FQ009.pdf)

Interestingly enough, one of the few grasses it doesn't control is switchgrass and big bluestem (more on that later...;) )


You'll have to forgive me if I come up with a handful of questions today...I'm at work with not much going on and have wildlfe plantings on the mind! I was looking up trees listed at the Iowa DNR Forestry and they had one called "Mixed Oak". Said to contain "Red, White, Bur, Pin, and Black in various proportions. Because of the variety it is adaptable to more soil and planting situations". So is this similar to other Hybrid Oaks? Anyone have experience with these trees.

Also how do you get by with just planting the oaks and not using cages or tubes?

Jordan, those are all just standard oak species, not "hybrids". A hybrid is a cross between two distinct species of parent trees much like crossing an Angus cow with a Herford bull...two different breeds but both "cattle" but the offspring is a "hybrid.

Oaks are exactly the same way and often "cross breed" in the wild, creating hybrids, some of which can only be certain by DNA testing.

Examples that I have planted are Bur X English Oaks, Bur X Gambel Oaks and Schuettes Oak (a white swamp oak cross)

Okios Tree Crops probally has the largest selection of hybrid oaks of any place in the world (to my knowledge)

Oikos Tree Crops - Hybrid Oaks (http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/prodtype.asp?PT_ID=7&strPageHistory=cat)

We bought the burgamble and burenglish oaks from the Idaho State nursery this spring and am very impressed thus far.(link on first page)

Tubes are nice but not necessary and almost impossible when planting thousands of seedlings as it's just cost prohibitive (for me at least ;) )

Cages are another story, not needed when the seedlings are small but when they get to be small saplings buck will kill them at a rapid rate!

I try to collect old woven wire from old fence rows that farmers have torn out and just cut a piece off and encircle the tree with no posts used.

Unlike apple trees, generally this is enough to keep them from rubbing the trees until they get large enough where they will leave them alone. :)

[dbltree]

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 600px" border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=600><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width="100%" align=left>Oikos has tree shelters and other supplies on sale if anyone is interested, might want to check other sources as well but thought I would pass it on.

Okios Tree Crops (http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/home.asp?cookiecheck=yes&)



<TABLE style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 10px" id=content_LETTER.BLOCK1 border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=bottom align=middle>http://origin.ih.constantcontact.com/fs053/1102162595985/img/36.jpg?a=1102652025555 (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102652025555&s=364&e=001_Xrpmwf0BLy3iXymWk759RG22x0fb4h3akAOgkDhBzOrN OVSgRrZHNNZJ4nNg8_-WJ3SAE31C_YSsEcWW8HedJvwNsGYGyYvBFn3bWtEKTHV7X_pgF 4DNQ==) July 28,2009

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 1px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #bfce85; PADDING-LEFT: 1px; PADDING-RIGHT: 1px; PADDING-TOP: 1px" bgColor=#bfce85 vAlign=top align=left><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #e8ecda" bgColor=#e8ecda vAlign=top width="100%" colSpan=2 align=left><TABLE id=content_LETTER.BLOCK2 border=0 cellSpacing=5 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=middle>Oikos Tree Crops
50% off Growing Supplies
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE id=content_LETTER.BLOCK3 border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="FONT-FAMILY: Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: #5d5c56; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" align=middle>SALE ENDS AUGUST 7, 2009 ****LIMITED QUANTITIES ****

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #a9a89d" bgColor=#a9a89d vAlign=top width="100%" colSpan=2 align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 30px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #e8ecda; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 5px; PADDING-TOP: 5px" bgColor=#e8ecda vAlign=top align=left><TABLE style="WIDTH: 410px" border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=410><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width="100%" align=left><TABLE style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #e8ecda; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 10px" id=content_LETTER.BLOCK4 border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%" bgColor=#e8ecda><TBODY><TR><TD style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: #4f604f; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" vAlign=top align=left>SALE ITEMS (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102652025555&s=364&e=001_Xrpmwf0BLyMHHW2bZkdDicxbQjVww_ZyHZL59XTrwgMI sdPjBJnxxYttzR0Z37s166RR08oUGhW7c2wRAuA2A4bZtohmfN p7llmvXuztrp9JgTK761Hw1OW5WF5brE16dKqrOIGgcj_C-kajukTaEkEdppWlpvSM-BaPZiqVVpRyxda3Lp1faeLTJbsKyXe6jQmZEZYjwEJlU7Y4pms VA==)

BIO PAK Teabags 10 gram 100ct
List $14.00 SALE $7.00

Root Zone Organic Teabags 25ct List $14.00 SALE $7.00


BIOPAK 1/2lb. List $21.00 SALE $10.50


BIOPAK Plus 1lb. List $22.00 SALE $11.00


Healthy Start Macro Tablets 21gm 50ct List $15.00 SALE $7.50

Soilicious 1.25 cubic ft.
List $18.50 SALE $9.25

Wood Mulch Mats 30" X 36"
List $5.50 SALE $2.75
Tubex Treeshelters - 50% OFF
TreePro Treeshelters - 50% OFF


Clicking on 'SALE ITEMS' will take you to the Growing Supplies section of the web site.





</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #e8ecda" id=content_LETTER.BLOCK7 border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%" bgColor=#a9a89d><TBODY><TR><TD style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: #e0decf; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" vAlign=top align=left>Oikos Tree Crops
Questions - email: customerservice@oikostreecrops.com (customerservice@oikostreecrops.com)



</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="100%" align=left><TABLE style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 10px" id=content_LETTER.BLOCK5 border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: #4f604f; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" vAlign=top align=left>This is our clean out the barn sale. Hope you can find some of these products useful.
Thank you,
Ken Asmus

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[letemgrow]

Good info Paul!!

The best time to buy anything is in the off season...the best part...the best time of year to plant is coming right up and that is when most people never shovel any dirt!!! :D

[dbltree]

Good info Paul!!

The best time to buy anything is in the off season...the best part...the best time of year to plant is coming right up and that is when most people never shovel any dirt!!! :D

Good reminder Phil because anytiime now is a good time to start killing planting spots for acorns or fall plantings of seedlings once they are dormant.

Townsend Chemical (http://www.townsendchemical.com/) will ship Oust XP by the ounce (minimum 2 ounces I think) and it's only $5+ an ounce (1-3 ounces per acre) making it very affordable residual weed control that can be applied now or this fall for spring plantings.

Mix with glyphosate to nuke everything and make sure it doesn't come back...:way:

We'll need to bring up reminders about proper acorn handling, storage and planting again soon...;)

[letemgrow]

So with oust, I can spray it around already established seedlings and not hurt the roots, or spray it ahead of the fall plantings and be okay correct? It should not be applied until the soil settles on new plantings if I am not mistaken.

[Alpha Doe]

So with oust, I can spray it around already established seedlings and not hurt the roots, or spray it ahead of the fall plantings and be okay correct? It should not be applied until the soil settles on new plantings if I am not mistaken.


yes...that's correct with the exception of apple trees and some shrubs and those are probally safe the second year after palnting.
Oaks can tolerate Oust well as long as soil is settled by some good rains.

If you apply it now and plant oaks in October for instance it's very safe but problems can occur when using a tree planter that leaves some roots exposed and an operator follows right behind with a spray rig.

I suspect that's not going to be problem in your case Phil...lol..... dbltree

[dbltree]

I noticed I have some black oaks that have either died or are dying from oak wilt

You can see a dead one that died last year and one to the left that is dying now

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/Tree%20Planting/DeadOak.jpg

Trees start to show symptoms in May and June and once they do, there is no cure...they are goners...:(

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/Tree%20Planting/DyingOak.jpg

Leaves turning brown in spring is a sure sign...

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/Tree%20Planting/Dyingoakleaves.jpg

Oak wilt is an aggressive disease that affects many species of oak (Quercus spp.). It is one of the most serious tree diseases in the eastern United States, killing thousands of oaks each year in forests, woodlots, and home landscapes.



These links will help you understand more about oak wilt but use care NOT to cut oaks in early summer as it will only encourage the spread of this serious disease. A wound on the tree can spell certain death so use caution also when doing TSI or hinge cutting not to drop trees against oaks. Girdling is a safer method of opening up canopy and not causing injury. White oaks are less susceptibable then red oaks which can often die within 3 weeks of becoming infected.

How to Identify, Prevent, and Control Oak Wilt (http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/howtos/ht_oakwilt/toc.htm)

Oak Wilt in Wisconsin (http://dnr.wi.gov/forestry/Fh/oakWilt/)

Oak Wilt (http://www.forestpathology.org/dis_oakwilt.html)

On a brighter subject... :)

This is one of Skips persimmon seedlings...something I'm still working on as so far I have not had a persimmon bud out or come up from seed.

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/Tree%20Planting/Persimmon.jpg

Persimmons thus far have remained a challenge for me so I may try some potted seedlings from Red Fern Farm (http://www.redfernfarm.com/)

[letemgrow]

yes...that's correct with the exception of apple trees and some shrubs and those are probally safe the second year after palnting.
Oaks can tolerate Oust well as long as soil is settled by some good rains.

If you apply it now and plant oaks in October for instance it's very safe but problems can occur when using a tree planter that leaves some roots exposed and an operator follows right behind with a spray rig.

I suspect that's not going to be problem in your case Phil...lol..... dbltree


My one concern is if I go ahead and spray now, the spots where acorns or seedlings will be put in the fall. What happens if I mix the soil in the hole that had the oust sprayed on it?? Is that good bad or in different?? I figured that would harm the roots and the oust needs to stay on the top correct??

[letemgrow]

On a brighter subject... :)

This is one of Skips persimmon seedlings...something I'm still working on as so far I have not had a persimmon bud out or come up from seed.

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/Tree%20Planting/Persimmon.jpg

Persimmons thus far have remained a challenge for me so I may try some potted seedlings from Red Fern Farm (http://www.redfernfarm.com/)

I still had persimmons popping up in July from the seeds I planted. Make sure to check them again before you give up on them. I imagine if they pass thru an animal they germinate much faster. :D

[dbltree]

My one concern is if I go ahead and spray now, the spots where acorns or seedlings will be put in the fall. What happens if I mix the soil in the hole that had the oust sprayed on it?? Is that good bad or in different?? I figured that would harm the roots and the oust needs to stay on the top correct??

It's common to spray Oust ahead of a spring seedling planting knowing that an additional application we'll need to be applied after planting as well.

I am not sure about effects on acorns but I know that Oust is also commonly used on direct seeded acorn seedings so I am assuming it is not a problem.

I guess I'm going to have to do some tests and have better answers to these questions Phil...;)

[letemgrow]

I am not sure about effects on acorns but I know that Oust is also commonly used on direct seeded acorn seedings so I am assuming it is not a problem.

I guess I'm going to have to do some tests and have better answers to these questions Phil...;)


I will run the test too and we can share data :D

[dbltree]

Whoooowooo! I found a live one! One of the persimmon seedlings that Skip gave me is alive...sweet!

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/Tree%20Planting/LivepersimmonSeedling.jpg

This is from Red Fern Farms in eastern Iowa

<TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH: 0px" border=1 cellSpacing=0 borderColor=#111111 cellPadding=0 width="105%" height=291><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" height=39 vAlign=bottom width="100%" colSpan=2>American Persimmon (Disospiros virginiana) </TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" height=28 vAlign=top width="54%">The American Persimmon is native to about the southeast 1/2 of the United States. They are hardy to about –30°F. The trees produce abundant crops of 1” - 2” diameter fruits, but only on female trees. Seedlings can not be sexed until they reach about 4’ to 5’ tall (about 3 to 4 years old). The fruits are among the sweetest in the world, and inspired the scientific name for the tree which means “food for the gods”. We have seedlings of superior grafted varieties, including 'Yates', 'Prok', and 'Osage'. 6 - 8 inches tall in 1 gallon pots $5.00 each


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I hope they tolerate more cold then 30 degrees!

This link says zone 5-9 American Persimmon (http://www.treetrail.net/diospyros.html)

Okios Tree Crops - American Persimmon (http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/product.asp?cookiecheck=yes&numRecordPosition=1&P_ID=307&PT_ID=117&strPageHistory=cat)also carries them and they are surviving in MI although much of MI is zone 6 and much of IA in zone 5.

This is kind of interesting...

A favorite of deer, persimmons are a strong attractant and will bring them in quantity to your property even in the dead of winter. Deer rarely browse seedling trees since the foliage is poisonous to them.

Willis Orchard - American Persimmon (http://www.willisorchards.com/product/American+Persimmon)

[LoessHillsArcher]

Anyone know the ripening dates for any Persimmon's in IA? Kinda interesting the deer won't destroy them...or eat them I should say. They'd probably still rub and shred them to death you think?

[letemgrow]

Yeah deer will rub them and like all trees, persimmons will vary in size and drop times. I planted 3 in my grandparents garden and luckily 2 are female trees and one was male. One of the female trees has a lot of small persimmons and the other seems to have fewer, larger ones. Not sure if that is from a pollination issue or genetics.

Once persimmons ripen they will be 30% sugar and the deer do love them. One night when I was picking them off the tree to plant at my farm, a deer was coming in to take some off the tree and got within 40 yards of me before the doe noticed the tree was already occupied. Looked like hogs were in there from all the deer tracks under that tree.

[letemgrow]

I had fair luck with persimmon seeds this year...I had several that did not come up but some look very very good.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Persimmons-1.jpg

[Joey Rott]

Has anyone tried transplanting persimmon suckers?

I don't believe we have native persimmons around here. I read a local article several years about persimmons and about them being rare around here. It said there was a big persimmon tree planted on the corner of a town (about 2 miles away), back in the 40s. But in the 60's the whole town was demolished.

But being familiar with the townsite, I went down there this Spring, looking at all the now very mature & overgrown trees that used to line the Streets & yards. I found what I believe is the Persimmon tree I read about, right on the SW corner of where the town used to be & article said. It has suckers coming up all around it. I thought I would try digging up a few this fall and transplanting them. I'll have to take a picture & post it here.. just to make sure it is indeed a persimmon.

[letemgrow]

I have not tried planting any, but I would think if you got enough of the root it suckered off of some just might take. I doubt the percentage would be very high tho.

[Alpha Doe]

Can someone help me ID this oak tree? I think it's a Chinkapin but I'm not 100% sure...:) We are in west central Illinois. Thanks! :D

http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu51/Imatreehugger/Chinkapinoakandchicoryweek3009.jpg

http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu51/Imatreehugger/Chinkapinoakandchicoryweek3011.jpg

http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu51/Imatreehugger/Chinkapinoakandchicoryweek3008.jpg