Timber Stand Improvment

[dbltree]

I'm hoping to start doing some TSI on my timbered areas so I thought I would start a thread on the subject. I am by no means an expert so it's a "learn as you go" project.

We already have a thread on Edge Feathering and Bedding Areas (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15487) but that type of timber work is more akin to "butchering" rather then "improving"...

Ghost has previously posted excellent pictures of his own TSI work: TSI (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18673)

After seeing results of Ghosts TSI it inspired me to start on my place.

So what is TSI anyway?

The followingis taken from this link: Timber Stand Improvement (http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p1281.htm)

Timber stand improvement, or TSI, is a term used to identify forest management practices which improve the vigor, stocking, composition, productivity, and quality of forest stands.

The improvement is accomplished by removing poor trees and allowing crop trees to fully use the growing space. The chief aim of TSI is continued production of more and better timber products. TSI practices can be used to convert assorted hardwood and pine stands into productive forests of desirable species. TSI can speed up the growth and improve the quality of the trees in your forest.

Different TSI practices may be needed at different times during the life of an established stand -- from the start of a new crop of trees until the final harvest. Here are some basic TSI practices:

Prescribed burning in pine stands to remove undesirable hardwoods, to prepare seedbeds, and to reduce the potential for wildfires.

Cull tree removal to make growing space available on areas occupied by deformed, defective, and undesirable trees. Some cull trees may be cut and sold; however, most must be killed with herbicides.

Thinning to relieve overcrowding and increase the growth rate of crop trees. Precommercial thinning in young, unmerchantable stands is a cost practice. Intermediate thinnings or improvement cuts in older stands produce some income for the landowner.

Sanitation cutting to remove trees that have been damaged by insects, diseases, wind or ice.

Release of young, vigorous crop trees for faster growth and better quality by removing overtopping and competing trees.
TSI involves improving our timber for a number of reasons including increasing the value of the timber and enhancing the timbers value to wildlife.

Part of the process involves removal of undesirable trees such as mentioned here.



suppressed trees that will not live until the next thinning.

trees too crooked, forked, or limby to make a No. 2 sawlog.

trees with fire scars and injuries from insects, disease, wind, or ice.

trees on the wrong site (such as a water oak growing on a ridge).

trees that are mature and slow growing.

any tree that will not contribute to the net value of the stand before the next thinning.

wolf trees with large crowns that occupy too much growing space or shade out more desirable species.

You will want to leave these trees in your timber stand:

high quality trees.
fast growing trees.
some mast producing and den trees for wildlife.
trees located so that all available growing space is used efficiently You can do these things on your own but there is funding for cost share to either pay someone else or yourself to improve your timber.

The first step is to stop by your local NRCS office and tell them you want to apply for cost share for TSI. They'll have you fill out some very basic information and mark out on a map the areas you wish to do.

This information will then be sent to the local IDNR forester and they will start a process of applying for REAP funds to cost share the expense of improving your timber.

All of this can take some time and currently funding has been exhausted, so it's important to be aware of this going in.

In my case the next step is waiting for my IDNR forester to meet with me and and help me come up with a Forest Stewardship plan which will then go back to the NRCS for their approval.

I'll keep adding to this thread as I go through the steps and eventually start actually doing some improvement work.

In the mean time here are a series of great links from a number of resources that further explain the concept of TSI, how to actually do the work and what positive affects it will bring about.

Timber Stand Improvement (http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p1281.htm)

Controlling Undesirable Trees, Shrubs, and Vines in Your Woodland (http://ohioline.osu.edu/for-fact/0045.html)

Cost Share Programs (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/costshare.html)

ISU Forestry Extension (http://www.forestry.iastate.edu/)

Forest Stand Improvment (http://efotg.nrcs.usda.gov/references/public/IA/N666_02-2002.pdf)

Improving Hardwoods (http://forestry.msu.edu/testmsaf/PDF/E1578_ImprHdwd.PDF)

Stand Improvement (http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p1281.pdf)

Planning for WOODED ACREAGES (http://publications.iowa.gov/3626/1/PM2002B.pdf)

Timber Stand Improvement Protocol (http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/forestry/karner/pdf/HCPUsersGuideTSI.pdf)

Woodland Improvement (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM2002A.pdf)

TSI in MN (http://www.frc.state.mn.us/FMgdline/2005guidelinesbook/TIMBER%20STAND%20IMPV)

Woodland Stewardship (http://www.in.gov/dnr_old/forestry/pdfs/timberstandimprovement.pdf)

FOREST LAND ENHANCEMENT PROGRAM (http://www.iowadnr.com/forestry/pdf/IowaFlep.pdf)

Kansas Forest Improvement (http://www.kansasforests.org/pubs/riparian/Timber%20Stand%20Improvement.pdf)

Forestry Incentives Program (http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/PROGRAMS/fip/2000summaries/IA-FIP.pdf)

Iowa Woodland Owners (http://www.iowawoodlandowners.org/)

Index of Common Trees of Iowa (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/pages/tree/index.html)

KY TSI (http://fw.ky.gov/timber.asp)

Total Forestry Program (http://www.pathfindersrcd.com/forestry.html)

Forest Improvement Handbook (http://www.fnr.purdue.edu/inwood/timber%20stand%20improvement.htm)

Increased acorn production (http://fwf.ag.utk.edu/personnel/charper/pdfs/Fertilizing%20oaks%20for%20acorns--Wildlife%20Trends.pdf)

[BOWSTRING]

Looking forward to this adventure like all your other posts!!

[letemgrow]

One thing I have noticed from the TSI I have done on the farm is deer love to bed in the tops especially in the dead of winter on south facing slopes, it helps conceal them from predators and the bitter north winds. White I was shed hunting one day they looked like a covey of quail coming out of a monster shingle oak top I cut down lol.

[letemgrow]

After I had cut down some shagbark hickory trees I noticed the sap had started to flow in either late feb or early march (not sure exactly) and the honey bees were all over it on that day. I try to do my TSI in winter so the tree tops drop the buds then and the deer have a hay day with them. They learn pretty quick what that chainsaw means.

Also, I would not leave any locust untreated as they will send up tons and tons of new sprouts. I would kill them for sure, but I pretty much hinge cut the rest and let them resprout for added concealment/browse for game.

[LoessHillsArcher]

Great thread! We'll be doing our first attempts at TSI on our place this coming late winter/spring. We've done some clearcuts in small areas but need the forester to come back and give us the quick low down on selecting trees to leave and what should go.

[BOWSTRING]

Anyone now where I could get a book that'll show you what tree's are by the bark and leaves? I've just been cutting at will and hoping for the best but about 2 weeks ago I ended up cutting down 2 nice walnut trees that were about 12" in diameter. I about kicked my own azz. I was looking at one tree top and cutting another. Not hard to do when everythings growing together.
Also would switchgrass do ok in a timber setting as long as it can get sunlight?

[150 Class]

Girdling trees is an easy way to kill off the least desirable trees in a mature forest but some are easier to kill this way than others. Elms seem to be easy ones to girdle.

[shellie]

Earl may would proably have them, or tell you where to go, if not , try ,Barnes Noble book store in Des Moines.

[JNRBRONC]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowstring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also would switchgrass do ok in a timber setting as long as it can get sunlight? </div></div>

It's almost essential to perform a periodic burn on switch grass, probably not something I would want to do in a timber. Granted timber burns can be beneficial, but for that you want a much "cooler" fire.

[DWilk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowstring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone now where I could get a book that'll show you what tree's are by the bark and leaves? I've just been cutting at will and hoping for the best but about 2 weeks ago I ended up cutting down 2 nice walnut trees that were about 12" in diameter. I about kicked my own azz. I was looking at one tree top and cutting another. Not hard to do when everythings growing together.
Also would switchgrass do ok in a timber setting as long as it can get sunlight? </div></div>

There are a lot of tree ID books out there. This one is a pretty good as it is easy to navigate by the common names, and it won't break the bank. I'd definitely look around though if you are serious about ID.

Trees of North America: A Guide to Field Identification (http://www.amazon.com/Trees-North-America-Identification-Revised/dp/1582380929)

You could reference back to the ISU extension guide as well... Actual field photos are sometimes more helpful.


Index of Common Trees of Iowa (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/pages/tree/index.html)

[dbltree]

Anyone now where I could get a book that'll show you what tree's are by the bark and leaves?



I would also suggest (beyond books already mentioned) to spend some time walking your timber with your area IDNR forester.

He/she can help you identify trees and you can flag or paint those you wish to save and in doing so you will learn how to identify the desirable and undesirable trees.

Girdling should be used in TSI while cutting is used in creating a bedding area or edge feathering situation.

Switchgrass is a prairie grass needing full sun and fairly good soils. It also needs to be burned and none of that goes along with planting in timber.

[Sligh1]

I'd just be honest with yourself- if you are going to do TSI and use a book to identify trees... I might spend $20-25 (you'll still make big profit if you are doing cost share) an acre to have a professional do it. Not because you can't identify a WHITE OAK or WALNUT but rather because there is so much complexity in which trees to release- example is a cluster of 6 white oaks all growing next to eachother- which do you cull? The process is quite complex with many other issues you need to account for that I won't even get into.

If you're looking to own the ground for a long time and do the best job possible (and someone is new to this) I'd really consider having the marking done. OR at least have half marked so you can learn how they did the 1st half and why. Just my opinion and 2 cents.

[BOWSTRING]

To try to make a long story short. The timber belongs to my brother. He got cancer and passed away about 1 1/2 years ago. He wanted his timber to got to his son and I. Wether that happens I don't care about.
I'm just trying to do what he would have liked and having someone else do the work is not an option.
What he wanted was to clean it up after it got logged and plant some trees and stuff for the deer and turkeys. So we'd have a place to hunt and do whatever else.
So I've done some work and got some guys to get the left over tree tops cut up that burn wood.
I'd rather cut a few wrong trees by myself than have someone else do it. I guess it's more of a personal thing that I want to do myself. Mistakes and all.
Thanks for the advice and hope you don't take this the wrong way.

[Sligh1]

Good deal bowstring. I am sorry about that horrible tragedy of losing your brother, I would not know how to handle that. Sounds like you are carrying the torch as far as the land goes the way he wanted. Someday you'll see him again.

If you wanted to do 100% of the work, of course that's your right (ABOVE- what I was saying that is 20-25/acre is paying someone to MARK the proper trees for YOU to kill). Mainly what I was saying is that I would get someone else in there to help you select which trees to cull, there could be THOUSANDS of mistakes if it were someone (not you I am sure) did not know what they were doing. I was just suggesting getting some expert advice in the sense of marking, walking around, which trees to kill, etc. You do all the hard work with the saw- that's the hard work BUT really the "easy" part because tree selection is so tricky and perminent. Totally up to you OBVIOUSLY. I am just trying to suggest a tiny bit of expertise that will pay off for generations & wildlife value and thousands upon thousands of dollars if that was at all a thought down the road. Good luck however you decide to handle it. Sorry about the loss of your brother BUT congrats on doing something great!

[BOWSTRING]

Sligh-
Not to proud to say I don't know what I'm doing. I got an idea of what some trees are but by know means am I an expert that's why I asked about a book.
The timbers problem is that there are lots of bigger trees that are choking the smaller trees that stop anything else from growing. What does grow I'd rather not have growing weeds and multi flora rose. That has taken over where all the trees were logged out a couple years ago.
What I was going to attempt is to take out some of the smaller trees and try to remove some of the bigger trash trees. To open up the ground and give some of the smaller trees a chance to grow and try to get some other plant growing.
Most of the small trees might be 10-15 feet tall but maybe 2" in diameter and when you clear out around them they just fall over. I guess they might pop back up eventually but I'm not sure.
I got a friend that can tell me what trees are what but I see you're point in knowing what tree to get rid of I never thought about that. I've just been cutting trees to get more sun to the ground and trying not to get rid of allot of good hardwoods.
Thanks again for your input.
Oh one more thing the place I wanted to put switchgrass in is a opening at the bottom of the timber that has very few trees amd a little creek that I could clean up somewhat easily. Mostly briars that are about 4ft and horseweeds. The deer seem to like it though.

[dbltree]

a cluster of 6 white oaks all growing next to eachother- which do you cull? The process is quite complex with many other issues you need to account for that I won't even get into.





That's part of what I intend to show in this thread as time goes on. Learning to do TSI is no more complex and difficult to understand then learning how to plant food plots, trees, use herbicides etc, etc,.

I'm just an average man, but I learned long ago I can do almost anything it I set my mind to it. Learning which trees to kill and which to leave is something everyone of you is capable of but with some knowledge and planning.

Attacking it helter skelter with no idea is not the answer either...sorta like setting off a switchgrass fire with no help and no equipment......

[BobB257]

Bowstring,
TSI is a complex thing and you may want to spend a little time on your preparations due to the long growing time of trees. A food plot may take 3 to 4 years to come together but a good timber stand can take 25 to 40. We have a good forester as regional director of QDMA in new england and Matt is very good with the seminar topic of wooded property management. Ask around and take a bit of time to study what the different techniques do. I know the urge is to get out with the saw and get some work done, but the reward will be more if the work is well planed and 10 years from now you can say that is how I laid it out.

[BOWSTRING]

Thanks for the advice. Sounds like allot better plan to follow everyones advice and take it slow and get some help deciding what will be more benificial in the long run.
Just another reason why this site is top notch.
Thanks for everyones input. Greatly appreciated.

[dbltree]

We are all still busy hunting this time of year but I'm just going to keep plugging in some examples and basic information regarding TSI.

Since this is a learning thread I'd like to give you a little analogy before we go into it.

When I quit farming I was broke...but not broken and in the years that followed I learned a trade and built three houses all the while people were screaming "DON'T do it!! It's to complex...your just a dumb farmer...you'll mess it up!!

You can't keep a good man down they say, so I didn't listen to the naysayers and they only increased my determination. ;)

I accomplished what I have because I have a "want to, can do" attititude and because a lot of people along the way cared enough to help me, to show me, to help me learn. That's what the Iowawhitetail forums are all about, sharing and learning.

So I didn't just start throwing 2x4's together building a house, I started with a blueprint and I broke it down into things I clearly understood and things I did not and when I had questions...I asked and...learned. :)

Managing your timber is like building a house, first we need a plan....

My own TSI started with an application at the local NRCS offices for REAP funding to do my TSI. Currently they allow $120 per acre and pay 75% or $90 an acre. Funding of course is not required to do TSI it's just a very helpful "encouragment" to start improving your timber.

If you hire your TSI done then you'll be responsible for the other $30 an acre but there are all kinds of options from doing it yourself or hiring a forester to mark your crop trees.

My next step was to contact my IDNR Forester who helped me establish a Forest Stewardship Outline for TSI. The best part about this is that your getting the help of top of the line professionals...free!

This is the outline for one of my TSI projects.


Stand #1 is 28 acres: CTR
This stand, located in two separate blocks of timber, is a mix of mostly large pole to small saw log size mixed oak and hickory with some ash, cedar, and an occasional walnut.

The best quality oak, walnut, and cherry will be marked and released from competition by killing adjoining trees that are competing for sunlight.


The following are the prescribed treatments represented by each of the TSI codes found above:

CTR stands for Crop Tree Release, marking and inventory. A maximum of 50 crop trees per acre are selected and marked and inventoried. They will be marked with a band of tree marking paint at Dbh. The inventory will specify species, Dbh. By 2 inch diameter classes, summarized by stand number, and will give a summary of crop trees pre acre for each stand.


The following species will be selected as crop trees, with highest preference given to the trees listed first:

Black walnut (Juglan Nigra)
White oak (Quercus alba)
Red oak (Quercus Rubra)
Black oak (Quercus velutina)
Bur oak (Quercus macrocarpa)
Red elm (Ulmus rubra)
Black cherry (Prunus serotina)


Only trees that have the potential for becoming veneer or high quality sawlog trees may be selected as crop trees, unless crop trees are being selected for wildlife considerations.

Crop trees are relatively young, vigorously growing trees. Trees with good crown symmetry is preferred.

The maximum size of crop trees will seldom exceed 18 inches Dbh. The rule of thumb is not to treat a tree if it is with in 4 inches Dbh of its anticipated final harvest diameter.

In choosing crop trees, they will be selected by species in the order given on the list, if all else is equal. Larger trees will be selected over smaller, higher stem quality over lower,
higher crown class over lower.
Trees with symmetrical crowns will be chosen over trees with less symmetrical crowns. Consideration will be given to the maintenance of stand diversity and the protection of den trees, and Indiana Bat habitat.


Each crop tree will be released form sunlight competition. Free growing space will be provided on all four sides of the tree. Competing trees will be killed using the hack and squirt method, or chainsaw girdling, using a complete girdle in either case, with an approved herbicide applied to the girdle. Girdling can be done at any convenient height.

Smaller trees can be cut, with a herbicide applied to the cut surface.

Herbicides will not be used on any tree of the same species as crop trees in the area.

These trees will be killed using a double chainsaw girdle, or a 4 inch ax girdle.

Vines will be removed from all the black walnut (Juglans Nigra) crop trees, but should not be removed from other species unless they are obviously damaging the tree.

Pruning: Remove limbs using an approved saw, following guidelines from recent Iowa State University pruning publications. All walnut crop trees will be pruned.

Weed trees: The following species and sizes will be killed: Honey Locust

Fences: Crews will kill trees right up to your fences unless you specify otherwise on this plan. This may mean that killed trees will fall across your or your neighbor’s fences, and onto neighboring land.

Practice Life: If any cost-share payments are accepted, then you have a legal obligation
to maintain the practice for specified period of time. You will be asked to sign a legally binding maintenance agreement.

Herbicides: The label is the law. You must follow the label exactly. If any instructions in this plan are contrary to the label in your possession, then contact the DNR District Forester for consultation. Herbicides must be used in accordance with their label.


Threatened of Endangered Species: Your Forest is potential summer habitat for the Indiana Bat, an endangered species. Take action appropriate for their protection.




This plan clearly states my objectives but also raises questions. (keep in mind each landowners plan will be different, mine is just an example)

What does a black oak look like?

What does "Dbh" mean?

What is an "approved saw"

Did you know that black oak acorns are poisonous to wildlife?

Did you know that most black walnuts grown in upland situations will never become valuable verneer and that they are very poisonous to other plants nearby?

Any number of questions may come up and the only "stupid question" is the one you don't ask...

I don't have all the answers either but hopefully others will join in and share and we can always turn to our IDNR forester with questions.

I'll be posting links on identifying trees by bark and pictures like this one (which 1/2 would you kill??)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI1.jpg

Pictures of trees to help us identify them:

Black walnut

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/BlackWalnutTree.jpg

Black Walnut Bark

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/BlackWalnut.jpg

BW Buds

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/BWBuds.jpg

Black walnuts

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/BlackWalnuts.jpg


Hopefully there will be lot's of questions and subsequent answers because regardless if you build your own house or hire a contracter, you'll still want to know it's done right...

[NovemberSunrise]

Did you know that most black walnuts grown in upland situations will never become valuable verneer and that they are very poisonous to other plants nearby?



Dbltree - Can you explain how upland situations lead to less valuable black walnut trees?


Also, did you keep the black walnuts according to the plan or not? I have some on my property. It's very evident that not much else is growing near the largest black walnut trees anymore due to the toxicity.

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: NovemberSunrise

Did you know that most black walnuts grown in upland situations will never become valuable verneer and that they are very poisonous to other plants nearby?


Dbltree - Can you explain how upland situations lead to less valuable black walnut trees?

Also, did you keep the black walnuts according to the plan or not? I have some on my property. It's very evident that not much else is growing near the largest black walnut trees anymore due to the toxicity.






Black walnut is most vaulable if it is verneer quality and those trees by and large grow in river bottom type areas where they are not able to "branch" out.

In otherwords they grow straight and tall with no limbs except near the top.

Trees that grow in open areas tend to branch out as in the pic I posted which means the trees may be vaulable for lumber only.

Urban Walnut Trees (http://ohioline.osu.edu/for-fact/0044.html)



Reports of black walnut trees being sold for hundreds or even thousands of dollars often cause homeowners to dream of huge profits from selling their backyard walnut trees.

Unfortunately, while good quality walnut trees are often quite valuable, walnut trees grown in an urban setting usually are not. Only an exceptionally large, high-quality, urban-grown walnut or group of walnut trees would interest a timber or veneer buyer





Is my black walnut tree worth anything? (http://web.extension.uiuc.edu/askextension/thisQuestion.cfm?ThreadID=10317&catID=207&AskSiteID=87)

Value of Walnut Sawlogs (http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Value_of_Walnut_Sawlogs.html)

FACTORS AFFECTING THE QUALITY OF WALNUT LUMBER AND VENEER (http://www.ncrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/gtr/gtr_nc243/gtr_nc243_161.pdf)

Selling Walnut Timber (http://extension.missouri.edu/xplor/agguides/forestry/g05051.htm)



Markets change of course and I am not advocating killing BW trees by any means but the most I was offered for a huge BW that had only one 8 ft stick in it was...80 bucks!

The same buyer told me that they paid $30,000 for a handful of extremely tall, large and perfect (no limbs, no blemishes) black walnuts in a river bottom situation.

Part of doing TSI is also pruning and killing vines which can help improve your BW crop tree and BW seedlings can be planted with trainers (conifers) to force it to grow up, not out.

Eventually I'll go back and cover more about "objectives" in our plan. Each landowner will have a slightly different objective especially if wildlife takes priority over timber value.

For me, oaks will have a higher value then black walnuts and if two were growing side by side I'd be more inclined to kill the BW but that's me and my choice and not the recommended practice.

[NovemberSunrise]

Eventually I'll go back and cover more about "objectives" in our plan. Each landowner will have a slightly different objective especially if wildlife takes priority over timber value.

For me, oaks will have a higher value then black walnuts and if two were growing side by side I'd be more inclined to kill the BW but that's me and my choice and not the recommended practice.





Thanks for your reply. I was just curious as to whether you cut them since I am debating cutting all of my smaller BWs in the near future in lieu of the oaks around them. My primary interest is wildlife also, but I'm trying to stay conscious of the economic potential down the road by not cutting all non-mast/greater-wildlife-oriented trees.

[Skully]

Good stuff Paul! I was wondering about this practice:

"Part of doing TSI is also pruning and killing vines which can help improve your BW crop tree and BW seedlings can be planted with trainers (conifers) to force it to grow up, not out."

I was wondering if cutting vines at ground level and applying TORDON is a safe practice? My thought is that the vine roots may inner-twine with the tree roots and the TORDON could harm the tree via the vine roots. Any truth to this? I have a ton of vines taking over some of my larger trees and would like to address the problem this spring.

[JNRBRONC]

Skully, I was contemplating Tordon as well.....

Wild grapes are extremely sensitive to 2,4D and that might be a safer alternative.

For poision ivy vines, how does a person safely cut them? I've got a couple that are HUGE climbing up an oak tree. Chainsaw seems like it would throw the sawdust all over you. Too big for a machette, would have to be a hatchet. Maybe a bow saw?

[Fishbonker]

I know Tordon 22K translocates very easily. I killed an elm tree one year by spraying the MF rose bush that was at its base. Tordon RTU with some diesel is a good cut stump method in the winter. Don't know the ratio of RTU to diesel, but I would think just saturating the stump of the vine with the mix should be OK.

As far as cutting poison ivy or five finger ivy I just have at it with the machete. The vines are about as big around as my wrist, which isn't very big. I also try, very carefully, to pull the vines out of the tree. Nuthin looks worse than a dead vine hanging on the side of a tree.

Anybody know what the name of the vine is that has sharp needle like thorns at the base but none on the smaller vines? Big leaves, grows faster than grape vine and has more tendrils than grape vine too. Starts out as 4-5 shoots coming out of a clump. Grows straight up until it finds branches then it goes to town. That stuff is a booger. Site guidelines prohibit me from saying what I call it. I would like to know its real name. It is almost a cross between gooseberry and grape.

The ‘Bonker

[JNRBRONC]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fishbonker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anybody know what the name of the vine is that has sharp needle like thorns at the base but none on the smaller vines? Big leaves, grows faster than grape vine and has more tendrils than grape vine too. Starts out as 4-5 shoots coming out of a clump. Grows straight up until it finds branches then it goes to town. That stuff is a booger. Site guidelines prohibit me from saying what I call it. I would like to know its real name. It is almost a cross between gooseberry and grape.

The ‘Bonker
</div></div>

I used this USDA search engine (http://plants.usda.gov/characteristics.html) to give me a list of vines and then I typed in Roundleaf Greenbriar into a google image search and think that is what you are talking about. It looks a lot like a similar plant I have seen (and fought).

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was wondering if cutting vines at ground level and applying TORDON is a safe practice? My thought is that the vine roots may inner-twine with the tree roots and the TORDON could harm the tree via the vine roots. Any truth to this? </div></div>

That's a great question!

I have used a different herbicide that hasn't caused any ill effects but the name espaces me at the moment. I'l have to dig up the container and read the label.

In the mean time I'll check with Ray Lehn (my district forester) and see what he reccommends that will be safe. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Fishbonker]

So I finally read the whole thread. How I missed the first page is beyond me. Very good stuff.

On the black walnut topic, my son owns a home in Anamosa that has several large walnuts on the perimeter. His neighbor is pestering him to cut them down. The neighbor is telling my son he will make tons of money from them. I told my son that they provide a lot of shade in the summer and may add to the property value. I think the neighbor wants them gone because they are a messy tree with the walnuts and branches. SO thanks for all the links Paul. I sent them on to my son.

On the vine front, I saw the line about leaving the vines that you cut out of crop trees hanging in the trees. People with a lot more smarts than I have said leave ‘em hanging, but I don’t like the looks so I try to pull them down.

The vine I asked about looks to be a bristly green briar. OUCH (https://webspace.utexas.edu/harms/MonocotHTML/data/Smilax-text.html) The small highly packed needle like thorns at the base are the give away. This stuff is hard to kill.

The 'Bonker

[Skully]

"The vine I asked about looks to be a bristly green briar."

You almost need a friggin cutting torch to get through that stuff! I have some of it to Bonks. Its not fun to wander into in the dark that's for sure! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif

[dbltree]

Here is what Ray Lehn (IDNR District Forester) had to say about spraying vines etc.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 14pt'>I would not worry about treating the vines. Most will be killed just by severing them. Used properly, treating vines with Tordon should not affect the tree. Tordon is best for locust, although Pathway is the same thing at a cheaper price. A mix of 50% Roundup and water is also very effective and probably cheaper (it will freeze in cold weather where Tordon/Pathway will not).</span>
</div></div>

I think Pathway is the herbicide I have been using on my vines now that he mentioned it. I use a small household bottle sprayer and just squirt the end of the cut vine.

Pathway Herbicide label (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld0B3006.pdf)

Tordon RTU label (http://www.beyondpesticides.org/dow/indepth/labels/tordon%20rtu.pdf)

Tordon 22K label (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld0AJ010.pdf)

[Skully]

Just the info I was looking for Paul, thanks! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif The 50% Roundup method puzzles me though. I thought Roundup was only effective when sprayed and absorbed through the foliage. I'll give it a try. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skully</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just the info I was looking for Paul, thanks! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif The 50% Roundup method puzzles me though. I thought Roundup was only effective when sprayed and absorbed through the foliage. I'll give it a try. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif </div></div>

First off, 50% is pretty "thick" and gly kills by being absorbed by the plant into it's root system. So my initial thoughts are the same as yours but stop and think about it...the fresh cut stem is like a "straw" and will absorb the gly right into it's root system.

Hey...worth giving it a try, inexpensive and safe! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Fishbonker]

50% round up method work in the winter or only when the vine is actively growing? I like to work my vines in the winter. I can still catch poison ivy but there is much less sap/oil in the vine in the winter.

Bristley green briar is indeed nasty. If you cut it off at the ground you can't grab it to pull it out because of the needles so I grab up higher and then the vine breaks. I don't remember it being around until 4-5 years ago.

The 'Bonker

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fishbonker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">50% round up method work in the winter or only when the vine is actively growing? I like to work my vines in the winter. I can still catch poison ivy but there is much less sap/oil in the vine in the winter.

Bristley green briar is indeed nasty. If you cut it off at the ground you can't grab it to pull it out because of the needles so I grab up higher and then the vine breaks. I don't remember it being around until 4-5 years ago.

The 'Bonker </div></div>

I'm thinking if not severe cold that the root would still absorb it but I'm sure that's whay he mentioned:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A mix of 50% Roundup and water is also very effective and probably cheaper (it will freeze in cold weather where Tordon/Pathway will not).
</div></div>

This is "uncharted territory" for me Bonker so could be one would need to do some comparisons to find out?

Extreme cold I'm guessing would not be so great to treat vines but some mid March weather when warm sunny days is starting to get the "sap" flowing might be just right. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

I still have a few more weeks of deer season, so I'm holding off firing up the chainsaw just yet, before I start my TSI project.

I already posted on of my plans but since this is the most important part I wanted to bring it back up and discuss it a little more.

My plan reads:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stand #1 is 28 acres: CTR
This stand, located in two separate blocks of timber, is a mix of mostly large pole to small saw log size mixed oak and hickory with some ash, cedar, and an occasional walnut.

The best quality oak, walnut, and cherry will be marked and released from competition by killing adjoining trees that are competing for sunlight.


The following are the prescribed treatments represented by each of the TSI codes found above:

CTR stands for Crop Tree Release, marking and inventory. A maximum of 50 crop trees per acre are selected and marked and inventoried. They will be marked with a band of tree marking paint at Dbh. The inventory will specify species, Dbh. By 2 inch diameter classes, summarized by stand number, and will give a summary of crop trees pre acre for each stand.


The following species will be selected as crop trees, with highest preference given to the trees listed first:

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Black walnut (Juglan Nigra)
White oak (Quercus alba)
Red oak (Quercus Rubra)
Black oak (Quercus velutina)
Bur oak (Quercus macrocarpa)
Red elm (Ulmus rubra)
Black cherry (Prunus serotina)</span>


Only trees that have the potential for becoming veneer or high quality sawlog trees may be selected as crop trees, unless crop trees are being selected for wildlife considerations.

Crop trees are relatively young, vigorously growing trees. Trees with good crown symmetry is preferred.

The maximum size of crop trees will seldom exceed 18 inches Dbh. The rule of thumb is not to treat a tree if it is with in 4 inches Dbh of its anticipated final harvest diameter.

In choosing crop trees, they will be selected by species in the order given on the list, if all else is equal. <span style='font-size: 14pt'><span style="color: #FF0000">Larger trees will be selected over smaller, higher stem quality over lower,
higher crown class over lower.</span> </span>
Trees with symmetrical crowns will be chosen over trees with less symmetrical crowns. Consideration will be given to the maintenance of stand diversity and the protection of den trees, and Indiana Bat habitat.


Each crop tree will be released form sunlight competition. Free growing space will be provided on all four sides of the tree. Competing trees will be killed using the hack and squirt method, or chainsaw girdling, using a complete girdle in either case, with an approved herbicide applied to the girdle. Girdling can be done at any convenient height.

Smaller trees can be cut, with a herbicide applied to the cut surface.

Herbicides will not be used on any tree of the same species as crop trees in the area.

These trees will be killed using a double chainsaw girdle, or a 4 inch ax girdle.

Vines will be removed from all the black walnut (Juglans Nigra) crop trees, but should not be removed from other species unless they are obviously damaging the tree.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Pruning:</span> Remove limbs using an approved saw, following guidelines from recent Iowa State University pruning publications. All walnut crop trees will be pruned.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Weed trees: </span> The following species and sizes will be killed: Honey Locust

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Fences: </span> Crews will kill trees right up to your fences unless you specify otherwise on this plan. This may mean that killed trees will fall across your or your neighbor’s fences, and onto neighboring land.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Practice Life: </span> If any cost-share payments are accepted, then you have a legal obligation
to maintain the practice for specified period of time. You will be asked to sign a legally binding maintenance agreement.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Herbicides: </span> The label is the law. You must follow the label exactly. If any instructions in this plan are contrary to the label in your possession, then contact the DNR District Forester for consultation. Herbicides must be used in accordance with their label.


<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Threatened of Endangered Species: </span> Your Forest is potential summer habitat for the Indiana Bat, an endangered species. Take action appropriate for their protection.
</div></div>

This plan was written by my area IDNR forester but it's something I will "fine tune" based on my own personal objectives.

What are MY objectives??

1) To improve the quality of my hardwood timber

2) To improve my hardwood timber for wildlife habitat, primarly by increasing hard mast and encouraging undergrowth and browse.

Having said that, I will place emphasis first and foremost on white and red oak species. Should I be faced with a choice where an oak is beside a black walnut (or almost any other species) I will cull the other tree or trees near the oak.

I will kill a red oak species if it should be impeding a white oak simply because white oak mast is more attractive and desirable then reds.

Black oak mast is very toxic to wildlife so they will be the first to go of any oak species.

Now keep in mind that some crop trees may not have any competition and no trees will need to be culled.

The question we all face in this is which trees to cull when there are more then one desirable hardwood species involved?

This is where each landowner must decide for him or herself and give it some thought before hand.

If you hire yout TSI done, you can let them know what your prefernce and objectives are, however based on situations I have seen, sometimes our "wishes" get thrown by the wayside. Afterall, you aren't there to observe and when they are done...it's too late... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Eventually, we'll show pics and examples and learn to identify trees via their bark but right now, none of that is our concern. Objectives can be decided before hitting the woods.

We'll need to paint mark crop trees and identify cull trees if indeed there are any. At that point you may learn that there is a black walnut and a white oak together, knowing your objectives before hand will help you with your decision.

I suspect that I will not live long enough to see my timber harvested, I will however enjoy the benefits of increased mast production due to my TSI efforts. I also expect to see rapid changes in undergrowth as light is allowed in and competition for moisture and nutrients are reduced.

Think about your own objectives and decide what you desire most from the timber in your habitat program. More then likely your goals will be somewhat different then that of your forester but working together you can still improve your hardwood timber value and improve your widlife habitat and better your whitetail hunting at the same time!

As the winter wears on I'll hit the woods and begin to mark my crop trees and share pics of trees I need to cull and hopefully identify various trees for future reference.

If any of you have trees to identify or situations that your unsure of, please post pics and we'll see if we can help /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[letemgrow]

Here is a walnut tree I am collecting seeds off of dbltree, I have about 100 right now to plant and already planted another couple houndred from it out at the farm this fall.

It's a very straight tree growing in the open.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Black%20Walnut/BlackWalnut1.jpg

I am going to be doing the exact same thing as you, I mark great walnut, white oak, northern red oak etc when I am out hunting and remember where those trees are and cut all the less desirable trees out around them.

I have several pure hickory stands to cut around that I already directs seeded whitexenglish, american chestnut, persimmon and chinquapin seeds underneath those trees in tree tubes.

[letemgrow]

some more trees to help ID when doing TSI...(if you don't mind DT)

These are some of the trees that I manage for.

Swamp white oak...notice the long stem on the acorn...it will come off the cap at a 45 degree angle.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Swamp_White_Oak2.jpg

Eastern Wahoo (shrub)

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/UnknownTreeorShrub.jpg

False Indigo

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/false_indigo.jpg

Black Cherry in bloom

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Black_Cherry1.jpg

Bur Oak

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/bur_oak.jpg

American Chestnut

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/chestnut1.jpg

Downy Hawthorne Seeds

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/DownyHawthorne.jpg

Persimmons from seed I planted

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Persimmons.jpg

[letemgrow]

Cherry bark oak

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/cherry_bark_oak.jpg

[dbltree]

Sweet!! That's exactly the kind of help I was hoping for! Pictures are worth 10,000 words when it comes to identifying trees!!

Thanks for posting the pics! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[letemgrow]

A few more I manage for and have on the farm...not the best pics, but a start.

White oak

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/white_oak.jpg

Prickly Ash
http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Unknown_1.jpg

[letemgrow]

I would also like to note that I have great success with the 50% roundup method on killing trees....another note, I girdle the biggest trees since they are old enough that they will not coppice. This saves money since less chemicals are needed, or you can use those on the trees that really need it.

I did this method on some very largy honey locusts and hickories that I had and none of those trees resprouted after they were girdled.

[150 Class]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did this method on some very largy honey locusts and hickories that I had and none of those trees resprouted after they were girdled. </div></div>

The last time I tried that with honey locusts was the last time that I will do it since with girdling only and without adding chemicals, they like to resprout from the roots (a single tree will sprout 100s of them). They act the same as the black locusts. What did I do wrong?

[letemgrow]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 150 Class</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did this method on some very largy honey locusts and hickories that I had and none of those trees resprouted after they were girdled. </div></div>

The last time I tried that with honey locusts was the last time that I will do it since with girdling only and without adding chemicals, they like to resprout from the roots (a single tree will sprout 100s of them). They act the same as the black locusts. What did I do wrong? </div></div>


They were probably too young and can resprout...once a tree gets so old they won't resprout back. I had a logger take out some giant walnuts that were straight as a string and they sprouted back so I am sure they were not as old as most trees to be able to do that. He cut out a few locusts to get to them and some resprouted and some did not.

I only do that with honey locust and hickories that are REALLY big. I have good luck that way.

[darkhollow1]

dbltree, I was extremely suprised when I read that the black oak acorn is poisonous to wildlife. I have a few areas covered with black oaks that I have been promoting the past few years. I always wondered why there seemed to be more acorns in these areas than other areas with white/red oaks. This may explain this. However, I have been researching the black oak and everything I have found says wildlife eat the acorns. If the black oak mast is no good for wildlife would you consider this a cull tree or continue to promote? Any more information on this issue would be great! Thanks

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the black oak mast is no good for wildlife would you consider this a cull tree or continue to promote? </div></div>

It's not a cull tree because it is a valuable timber tree but if I have to choose between a black and almost any other oak, I will kill the black.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 14pt'>Warning</span>: Black Oak Acorns poisonous to animals if eaten. Humans should generally avoid ingesting plants that are toxic to animals. </div></div>

Black Oaks (http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/detail.asp?allSpecies=y&searchText=black%20oak&curGroupID=10&lgfromWhere=&curPageNum=5)

Promote white oaks first and reds secondly and blacks (blacks are a red oak species) lastly would be my thoughts... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[letemgrow]

I wonder if it is not because of the super high tannin content?? Luckily I have only found 2 black oaks on my place and only one of them is still alive....not for long though.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: letemgrow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder if it is not because of the super high tannin content?? Luckily I have only found 2 black oaks on my place and only one of them is still alive....not for long though. </div></div>

Here's another quote

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Black oak (Quercus velutina) is a native tree found only in southern Ontario. The acorns contain significant quantities of toxic phenolics. This plant caused sickness and death in cattle after they ingested acorns on autumn pastures. </div></div>

[dbltree]

This post is to help identify hardwood crop trees that we would choose not to kill (assuming the cull trees are not the same species). We need to identify these trees by bark, twigs and possibly leaves during winter months.

I may add more from time to time but these are some of the common hardwood trees that we prefer to perpetuate for both timber and mast. White oak species being at the top of the list of preferred species for both timber and mast.

Later we'll discuss less desirable species and which trees to cull when more then one desirable species are growing close to each other and we may be faced with a diffcult choice.


Black Oak - Quercus velutina Lam. (http://forestry.about.com/library/silvics/blsilquevel.htm)

Black Oak Bark

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/5349079.jpg

Black oak leaf (note that black oak is a member of the red oak family of which leaves will be "sharper" while white oaks are rounded)

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008384.jpg

Black Oak Acorns - note that Black Oak Acorns are toxic to most wildlife, livestock and children!

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008231.jpg

Black Oak Tree

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1480419.jpg

Bur Oak - Quercus macrocarpa Michx. (http://forestry.about.com/library/silvics/blsilquemac.htm)

Bur Oak Bark

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008028.jpg

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008029.jpg

Buds and leaf scars

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008527.jpg

Tree in winter

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1480402.jpg

Summer Bur Oak

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1480403.jpg

Bur Oak Leaf

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008385.jpg

Bur Oak Acorn

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/5043043.jpg

Pin Oak - Quercus palustris (http://forestry.about.com/library/tree/blpino.htm)

Pin Oak Bark

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008041.jpg

Pin Oak Leaves

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008392.jpg

Pin Oak Acorns

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008238.jpg

Pin Oak Tree

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1480406.jpg

Pin Oak Twigs

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008529.jpg

Northern Red Oak - Quercus rubra (http://forestry.about.com/library/tree/blnredo.htm)

Northern Red Oak Bark

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008040.jpg

http://pick4.pick.uga.edu/IM/I_SB/0104/640/Quercus_rubra,Bark,I_SB10499.jpg

http://pick4.pick.uga.edu/IM/I_SB/0131/640/Quercus_rubra,Bark,I_SB13118.jpg

Northern Red Oak Leaves - note how sharp the pointed the leaves are as compared to white oak species. White oak acorns are highly favored by wildlife versus the high tannin bitter tasting red oak acorns.

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008398.jpg

Northern Red Oak Acorns

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008245.jpg

Northern Red Oak Tree

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1480416.jpg

Northern Red Oak Buds

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008542.jpg

White Oak - Quercus alba L. (http://forestry.about.com/library/silvics/blsilwhi.htm)

White Oak Bark

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008037.jpg

White Oak Leaves - note the very rounded or blunt globes of the leave compared to the sharp pointed red oak species.

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008404.jpg

White Oak Acorns - White oak acorns are highly sought after by wildlife!

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008254.jpg

White Oak Tree - most white oak species tend to be rounder and more open sprawling then red oak species.

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1480387.jpg

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1480389.jpg

White Oak Stem/Bud

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008547.jpg


Swamp White Oak (Quercus bicolor) (http://www.ohiodnr.com/forestry/trees/oak_wh_swamp/tabid/5402/Default.aspx)

Swamp White Oak Bark

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008039.jpg

http://www.ohiodnr.com/Portals/18/trees/imagetrees/oak_swmp_wt_brk_sm.jpg

http://www.plantbio.ohiou.edu/Photo%20Library/swamp%20white%20bark.jpg

Swamp White Oak Leaves

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008403.jpg

Swamp White Oak Acorns

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008248.jpg

Swamp White Oak Tree

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1480393.jpg

Black Walnut - Juglans nigra L. (http://forestry.about.com/library/silvics/blsiljugnig.htm)

Black Walnut trees are toxic to other trees and shrubs, the nuts are not sought after by whitetails and despite what many are lead to believe, most trees in open areas will not be as vaulable as thought.

Black Walnut Bark


http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1219155.jpg

Black Walnut Leaves

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008447.jpg

Black Walnuts - In fall and early winter these will be laying under the tree and easily identified.

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008279.jpg

Black Walnut Twigs

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008552.jpg

Black Walnut Tree

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1219153.jpg

Black Cherry - Prunus serotina Ehrh. (http://forestry.about.com/library/silvics/blsilpruser.htm)

Black Cherry Bark

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008008.jpg

Black Cherry Leaves

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008312.jpg

Black Cherry Fruit

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2138079.jpg

Black Cherry Tree

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1480364.jpg

Black Cherry Twigs

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008480.jpg

American Elm - Ulmus americana L. (http://forestry.about.com/library/silvics/blsilulmame.htm)

American Elm Bark on bottom, Slippery Elm on top

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008005.jpg

American Elm Bark

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/5350067.jpg

American Elm Leaves

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008329.jpg

American Elm Tree

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1480515.jpg

American Elm winter twig

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1346004.jpg

American Beech - Fagus grandifolia Ehrh. (http://forestry.about.com/library/silvics/blsilfgrandi.htm)

There are few beech trees in our area but they are a good wildlife tree and would be considered important, so care should be taken not to cull one by accident.

American Beech Bark

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1219108.jpg

American Beech Leaf

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1219109.jpg

American Beech Winter Leaf

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1219110.jpg

American Beech Tree

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/5042074.jpg

American Beech Twig

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1219105.jpg

Using Anatomy and Habitat to Identify a Tree (http://forestry.about.com/od/thecompletetree/u/tree_anatomy.htm)

Hardwood Forestry Images (http://forestry.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.forestryimages.org/browse/subimages.cfm%3Fsub=3342)

[LoessHillsArcher]

Awesome stuff Paul! I've been keeping an eye out more and more for the tree variety in our timbers, finding lots of bur and white oaks! Also got some "junk" trees we call them that we'll have to take pics of next time but no clue what they are?? Going to be doing some printing and studying before our TSI project this Feb. Mar. and Apr!

[letemgrow]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoessHillsArcher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Awesome stuff Paul! I've been keeping an eye out more and more for the tree variety in our timbers, finding lots of bur and white oaks! Also got some "junk" trees we call them that we'll have to take pics of next time but no clue what they are?? Going to be doing some printing and studying before our TSI project this Feb. Mar. and Apr! </div></div>

good idea to id for sure before you cut...I about cut down a patch of basswood before I knew what they were. Now I just need to find a beekeeper to bring a hive or two up and plac by them since they apparently make the sweetest honey.

Something I am doing is not just selecting for white oaks (even though they are #1) they seem to produce sporadically so I want at least as many reds (northern red oaks preferably) as I do whites to give more consistent acorn crops.

[letemgrow]

I would also like to note that deer absolutely devour my seedling black walnuts and stump sprouts from when the logger took out timber quality trees. I had to put guards around them just so they could get out of their reach.

It seems to be perfect browse for deer so they will always have a place on my farm and they keep squirrels around which are your main acorn planters anyways.

[Sligh1]

RANDOM BUT POSSIBLY VALUABLE TREES?????.....
I see on many lists to crop tree release Elms. Anyone do that? Valuable timber? I am a bit hesitant because the usually die early before mature anyways.

Letemgrow- I have been good about not killing basswood BUT I've never sold any, are you saving because it's a valuable tree (I don't know much on basswood value).

How bout ash, couple different kinds - on occasion I'll release a few really straight ones and do it to diversify (not over an oak or something).

Hickory- (shagbark, shellbark,) anyone free these up? I'm covered with them so usually they don't get my attention like they maybe should???

Cherry- obviously talked about in CTR- have the trouble that they don't grow super straight quite often AND don't get as big as other trees BUT I seem to find plenty that make a great release tree. Y'all do this too? Thoughts on cherry? *dont hear about cherry nearly as much as oak and walnut.

Maple- super straight ones. I'll release on occasion.

OBVIOUSLY everyone on here's probably concentrating on Oaks and walnuts. Curious your take on some of the above, how it fits into your plan and how you decide on some of those.

[dbltree]

My personal feeling is that unless any one of the trees you mentioned has reached the "vaulable" stage I'm not going to worry about "releasing" it.

Keep in mind what my forestor suggests and what I do are two different hings. I value his insight and expertise, however a forestors goals and mine may be slightly different... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

I have dead elms all over my farm and it's only a matter of time before the ash trees go the way of the elms.

Hickories I have everywhere...I use those areas for bedding ares by hinge cutting.

Cherry...I try to leave unless it's between a cherry and an oak/walnut.

Those are all personal choices for which there is no right or wrong IMO. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[letemgrow]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sligh1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RANDOM BUT POSSIBLY VALUABLE TREES?????.....
I see on many lists to crop tree release Elms. Anyone do that? Valuable timber? I am a bit hesitant because the usually die early before mature anyways.

Letemgrow- I have been good about not killing basswood BUT I've never sold any, are you saving because it's a valuable tree (I don't know much on basswood value).

How bout ash, couple different kinds - on occasion I'll release a few really straight ones and do it to diversify (not over an oak or something).

Hickory- (shagbark, shellbark,) anyone free these up? I'm covered with them so usually they don't get my attention like they maybe should???

Cherry- obviously talked about in CTR- have the trouble that they don't grow super straight quite often AND don't get as big as other trees BUT I seem to find plenty that make a great release tree. Y'all do this too? Thoughts on cherry? *dont hear about cherry nearly as much as oak and walnut.

Maple- super straight ones. I'll release on occasion.

OBVIOUSLY everyone on here's probably concentrating on Oaks and walnuts. Curious your take on some of the above, how it fits into your plan and how you decide on some of those.



</div></div>


I go in a step plan basically, oaks/walnuts get first choice in a site and then cherry etc.

That said I cut most all hickory trees and leave a few for diversity. I leave the ash till the bitter end too. I don't worry about leaving elms as they seem to die pretty quickly and spread plenty along the way.

I left the basswood mainly because there are only 3 patches that I have found on my farm and I like diversity so they stay. If I was loaded with basswood and few oaks you can bet some basswood would get cut down for sure.

If some areas do not have any oak, walnut cherry etc I won't cut all the crap trees out, but will hinge cut most of them to see if anything will regenerate that is desirable.

Basswood was used to make duck decoys, not sure if they are still that way or not.

[letemgrow]

some examples,

If I have a swamp white oak and a shingle oak together, the shingle oak goes. If I have a shingle oak and a hickory the hickory goes.

On my place if I have a northern red with 2 smaller whites around it then white oaks go as I have far more white oaks than northern reds and I am looking for more balance with better timber value.

Nothing tops a straight walnut though that is healthy and in great shape in the creek bottom /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

I've been working on my TSI and I have to say it was very enjoyable and enlightening to mark my own crop trees.

One never will get intimately familiar with your timber and surrounding habitat until embarking on a journey into Timber Stand Improvment.

Hiring it done will certainly get the job done, but you will never look at "tree bark", nor stare up at canopies and really inderstand what your looking at when you let someone else do it.

TSI isn't for every individual but it's something to think about if you would like to learn and truely embrace "improving" your timber and whitetail habitat.

I have been taking a ton of pics so just for fun, I'm curious if any of you would care to identify these trees by bark.

Tree 1

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/BlackOak1.jpg

Tree 2

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/BurOak1.jpg

Tree 3

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/RedOak1.jpg

Tree 4

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Unknown.jpg

Tree 5

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Unsure1.jpg

Couple trees could be the same and one I am not sure of the idenity myself, so I'm curious to hear some feedback.

A couple of them are very easy and you can find them a couple posts back in known "bark" pictures.

Please post your thoughts on idenity of those 5 trees... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[letemgrow]

I will take a stab at them:

Tree#1 Walnut
Tree#2 Bur Oak??
Tree#3 Northern Red Oak
Tree#4 White Oak??
Tree#5 still thinking on that one /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[letemgrow]

guess this one and I think I have the right answer, but could be off on this one. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Dwarf_Chinkapin_Oak_003.jpg


http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Dwarf_Chinkapin_Oak_001.jpg

[Sligh1]

Wish i could see some leaves and stems at the end!!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
#1 is a black oak (or walnut that has not had full light or premium soil conditions)
#2 Burr Oak BUT it looks more like a black locust which you aren't going to free up I would hope!
#3 is Red Oak
#4 looks like those trees you often see in hedge rows- not hedge, not mulberry, not box elder BUT something you see in those situations- I can't put my finger on it. Could be american elm but I doubt it. I guess i'm stumped here- too rough/course for white oak. I DON'T KNOW?!!?!?
#5 Stumped here as well, I thought swamp white for a second, then thought American Elm but pretty sure that ain't right. I'll just go with Swamp oak even though I'm stumped here.

Man oh man, them beez tricky!

Phil, what you got there- Chinquapin of some type?!?

[dbltree]

The first three are:

1) Black Oak
2) Burr Oak
3) Red Oak

4 and 5 I'm not sure about.

I sent Ray Lehn a pic of #4 so I'll see what he says.

I know I have a high percentage of black oak, then split between burr and reds but true "white oaks" I think are pretty scarce (bummer /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif )

My tree planting this year will have plenty of swamp white oaks and burr oaks along with the hybrids.

I'm curious about Phil's tree? Looks kinda like a chestnut shaped leaf but perhpas not a chestnut tree??

Cool stuff! I really enjoy learning more about our trees and did I mentions...I'm sore from running the chainsaw! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Here's a few more pics of oak bark and descriptions in this link:

Oaks (http://www.bio.brandeis.edu/fieldbio/Survival/Pages/oak.html)

Burr oak

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008029.jpg

Black Oak

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/5349079.jpg

Northern Red Oak

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1219194.jpg

I noticed that red oaks can have many variations

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1380243.jpg

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1219196.jpg

This link has tons of great ID pics:

Identify the Oaks (http://forestry.about.com/cs/treeid/a/the_oak.htm)

It also has many other tree types so I need to keep comparing pics! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[Sligh1]

Dbltree, can you send some more pics of 4 & 5??? Can you send any of the twig ends AND some leaves around them- are there ANY leaves still hanging? (probably not since you would have thought of that!!).

I think one of those is an elm possibly (that would be EASY to tell with the ends of the twigs), the other a type of oak.

I have a few on my farm that stump me like that too!!! I actually had a forester out once that couldn't tell me what a couple trees were they were so tricky!!! Often, the problem lies when a tree does not grow like the typical BOOK photos depict- often times the bark is different in texture (many times that's from growing conditions). Sometimes the leaves are not consistent either with typical looking growth & you sit there looking at them scratching your head.

Just from the bark of 4&5, you got some tricky ones!!!

[DWilk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbltree</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I noticed that red oaks can have many variations
</div></div>

Northern Red and Black oak hybridize fairly regularly in the field resulting in some variable bark characteristics. That, age of the tree, site quality, etc. can also cause variations in bark.

Northern red bark characteristically has those long flat areas between ridges (more continuous looking), whereas black is more knotty and cut off.

Often times black oak doesn't develop its signature bark until its fairly mature and sometimes only at the bottom few feet of the trunk.

Good pictures!

[DWilk]

-Letemgrow

Is that a chinkapin?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sligh1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dbltree, can you send some more pics of 4 & 5??? Can you send any of the twig ends AND some leaves around them- are there ANY leaves still hanging? (probably not since you would have thought of that!!).

I think one of those is an elm possibly (that would be EASY to tell with the ends of the twigs), the other a type of oak.

I have a few on my farm that stump me like that too!!! I actually had a forester out once that couldn't tell me what a couple trees were they were so tricky!!! Often, the problem lies when a tree does not grow like the typical BOOK photos depict- often times the bark is different in texture (many times that's from growing conditions). Sometimes the leaves are not consistent either with typical looking growth & you sit there looking at them scratching your head.

Just from the bark of 4&5, you got some tricky ones!!! </div></div>

The 5th tree I'm certain is an oak and perhaps is a hybrid as mentioned.

These trees are tall so no chance of getting to twigs /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Here's #4 again...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Unknown.jpg

and here is American Elm

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/5350067.jpg

Slippery Elm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Mature_Ulmus_rubra_bark.jpg

American Basswood

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1219238.jpg

Sassafras

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1118050.jpg

American Sycamore

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008046.jpg

Bitternut Hickory

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008025.jpg

Poast Oak

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2148060.jpg

Pin Oak
http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008041.jpg

Young Pin Oak

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2130057.jpg

White Oak
http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008037.jpg

Interesting differences in these pics of white oak bark

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1480388.jpg
http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1118031.jpg
http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/1219186.jpg
http://www.mcnees.org/mainpages/misc/trees/bark_quercus_alba_white_oak.jpg

This pic is of swamp white oak bark...

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/0008038.jpg
http://www.oplin.org/tree/fact%20pages/oak_swamp_white/bark.jpg
http://www.mcnees.org/mainpages/misc/trees/img_tree_swamp_white_oak_bark.jpg
http://www.shoreham.net/~mlapin/images/swamp_white_oak_for_web.jpg

I'm forwarding the ones in questions to Aaron J. Lumley, IDNR Forester taking over for Ray Lehn who is off to help another country establish nurseries and such for a year.

We'll see what Aaron thinks... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[letemgrow]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DWilk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">-Letemgrow

Is that a chinkapin?

</div></div>


from what I can tell it is, the acorns were small and the wildlife devoured them all before I could get back to pick any up. The "tree" is maybe 15 feet tall and those small saplings by it are sprouts from that tree which leads me to believe that it is a dwarf chinkapin oak since that is a characteristic that they have. Some people say they are the same as a chinkapin oak, but I know one thing the animals LOVE those acorns!!!

[letemgrow]

trying to identify oaks just from the bark is very tricky...in my oak timbers there are so many variations of bark on the same species of trees it makes it tough to do. Some may of course by hybrids.

That black oak pic threw me for a loop!!! I have walnuts that look just like that.

[letemgrow]

another way to tell black oak for sure is the inner bark will be brigh yellow.

[letemgrow]

Here are some pics of what I do on the farm for TSI work.

There first one was a nice white oak that was surrounded by hickories.

Before Pic:
http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/TSIBefore.jpg

After Pic:
http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/TSIAfter.jpg

[letemgrow]

a swamp white oak before and after...it had locusts surrounding it on both sides. I snapped the pic after I cut one of the locusts on the left hand side.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/TSIBefore1.jpg

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/TSIAfter1.jpg

[letemgrow]

A released white oak that was growing along side a elm and a hickory. It must be a high quality oak to compete side by side with those trees.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/ReleasedWhiteOak.jpg

[dbltree]

Great pics Phil! Make sure you scarf up some of those acorns before the wildlife does next fall! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[letemgrow]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbltree</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great pics Phil! Make sure you scarf up some of those acorns before the wildlife does next fall! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif </div></div>


I am for sure going to get it done...I will stop by the tree every day on my way back from work to see when it starts dropping and get 300 or so to dibby out to everyone.

Hopefully with green leaves and the acorns I will be able to get a good id on the tree. I am hoping it is a dwarf chinkapin myself.

[dbltree]

I'm going to start posting pics of my own TSI project to offer more examples of how it works and we'll go back and check on these in years to come.

My cost share plan calls for marking crop trees trees at Dbh unless they are within 4" of marketing size in which case one need not bother with release.

Some cases are relatively easy as in this case

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI1-1.jpg

Note competing canopy

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Tops1.jpg

I picked up cheap cans of red spray paint to do my marking

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSIMarking.jpg

Trees that are culled near a fence are going to start droping brances on them so one needs to be aware and keep an eye on things in case fence repair is needed later on. Note the tree next to the fence on the far right is one that I culled.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSIMarking2.jpg

I had several clumps of oaks like these

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/ClumpofBurrOaks.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Cluster2.jpg

With competing canopy

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Canopy.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Canopy3.jpg

Some clusters are all different species and in all cases I chose red, black or burr oak over other species such as the black cherry and hickory in this pic.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Cluster.jpg

Here's a shot at the canopy and obvious reasons for releasing them

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Canopy2.jpg

The nice thing about doing your own is that you have the option of leaving den trees

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/DenTree.jpg

or looking at a clump and going "heyyy...that a perfect stand spot"... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/LeftforTreestand.jpg

I killed cull trees by girdling with a chainsaw

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Girdling.jpg

Most of my cull trees consisted of shingle oak, honey locust and shagbark hickories.

I didn't try to kill anymore shingle oaks then needed but did kill as many hickories as I could.

I'll keep adding pics as I have time but you can see why doing TSI (marking Crop Trees) is important before doing hinge cutting for bedding areas /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[letemgrow]

great work there DT!!!

[dbltree]

I'm not sure how long the paint will stay on the crop trees but it does make it easy to see where you need to cull.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CTRMarking.jpg

Some situations were pretty easy to decide what to cut! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
but hey...you know it's not a good idea to lean into a honey locust with your shoulder while girdling it! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/HLnBurrOak.jpg

Most cull trees were girdled but in areas where I also was working on creating some bedding areas or additional cover I went ahead and tipped them over.

Before

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Before.jpg

A look at the canopy

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CanopyTrio.jpg

After

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/After.jpg

Lots of leaves on the forest floor but a little "snooping" will give you some clues to the trees above...

A black oak leaf

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/BlackOakLeaf.jpg

A red oak leaf

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/RedOakleaf.jpg

Black on the left and burr on the right

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Blacknburroakleaf.jpg

Note the red oak species (all of them) will have "pointed" tips while the white oak species (which includes burr oaks) will have rounded leaf tips.

Lot's to learn when we take a closer look at our timber and the more we know about the habitat on our property, the more we can learn about the wildlife that inhabits it as well... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[kurtish]

I was in the woods today and i found 3 volunteer apple trees that I would like to release to promote fruiting. I have multiple black oaks that are leaning over the top of the apples which will need to go to allow for ample light to produce fruit. What I am wondering is; will I be better off girdling the black oaks or should I just try to drop them now and deal with any damage to the apple trees that might occur on impact. I'm not for sure whether this really fits with TSI, but in my case timber value means nothing and the added soft mast would be a big draw card in my small piece of timber(to me that's improvement).

Here' a great site for helping with identification and familiarizing yourself with the various species that you may encounter while perfoming your TSI

http://msuplants.com/pd_search.html

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">will I be better off girdling the black oaks or should I just try to drop them now and deal with any damage to the apple trees that might occur on impact. </div></div>

I would for sure girdle them! That's the whole reason for girdling in that the trees die and canopy is opened up instantly but the tree rots down over time and limbs fall one at a time without damaged crop trees or in your case...the apple trees.

Thanks for the link! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[letemgrow]

Good work there DT!!!

[dbltree]

Took a walk with my IDNR forester today and learned a few things. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

He mentioned that "clumps" like these are better off left alone because the "killed" portion just ends up rotting and destroying the whole tree.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/ClumpofBurrOaks-1.jpg

He said a rule of thumb is if you can get your foot inbetween them at the base (if it's U shaped) then culling inferior parts will be OK.

He also mentioned that the reason these burr oaks grew like that is because it is growing from a stump! Logged 40-50 years ago these burr oaks sprouted up from the stump.

To bad somebody didn't do TSI about 30 years ago... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

This is another example where it's better to just leave the tree intact:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/DontCut.jpg

I knew I had lot's of shagbark hickory but it turns out I also have lot's of bitternut hickory

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/BitternutHickory.jpg

It appears I have only one white oak and a couple "babies" on the whole place... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif

White Oak

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/WhiteOak.jpg

White Oak Bark

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/WhiteOakBark.jpg

Young White Oak Bark

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/YoungWhiteOak.jpg

White Oak Leaf

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/WhiteOakLeaf.jpg

Leaves still holding on this young white oak

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/WhiteoakLeaves.jpg

One of the distinct advantages of doing TSI is to open up canopy so that new oak seedlings can come up. We can keep them alive and hold back "junk" by burning as often as possible.

Young oaks can survive fire while hickories and ironwood will be set back.

[letemgrow]

Good info DT!!!

I always figured those clumps were either stump sprouts from logging or where a young tree was browsed and resprouted.


I would for sure be targeting those white oaks for TSI since you have very few and if you want some acorns I may be able to scrounge up some from a really nice white oak I posted pics earlier of.

[letemgrow]

DT,

The tree I like to pick some acorns off of for sure is in the Acorns?? thread under whitetail management. If you like it I can try to get you some this fall. It was LOADED last year, but may not be this year with the way white oaks tend to run.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you like it I can try to get you some this fall. </div></div>

You bet! I'm really interested in getting more white oaks started where ever I open up canopy for bedding areas or just by doing TSI.

One forester up here has developed a "acorn seeder" for direct seeding which is pretty neat!

http://www.geodeforestry.com/albums/album01/000_0006.jpg
http://www.geodeforestry.com/albums/album01/000_0005.jpg
http://www.geodeforestry.com/albums/album01/000_0004.jpg
http://www.geodeforestry.com/albums/album01/000_0003.jpg

I don't have one of those, so perhaps a "tad" less then he has in that hopper for me! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

[letemgrow]

I am sure I can get some swamp white, white oak, chinkapin (dwarf) if that tree is indeed a dwarf and if you want some and possibly some bur's. What all sounds good.

[letemgrow]

That seeder is the ticket for big jobs!!!!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">swamp white, white oak, chinkapin (dwarf) if that tree is indeed a dwarf </div></div>

Maybe a dab of each Phil...got plenty of bur oaks but the others would be a welcome addition to my habitat projects /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[DWilk]

-dbltree

I'm curious as to what your forester recommended to do with the bitternut? I have seen them called a weed as they do tend to seed in very heavy in the understory.

[letemgrow]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbltree</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">swamp white, white oak, chinkapin (dwarf) if that tree is indeed a dwarf </div></div>

Maybe a dab of each Phil...got plenty of bur oaks but the others would be a welcome addition to my habitat projects /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif </div></div>

I will see what I can come up with, but should be able to get some of each since I have quite a few places to snatch them up. Make sure you PM me when the time is close early sept so I do not forget about it!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[letemgrow]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DWilk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">-dbltree

I'm curious as to what your forester recommended to do with the bitternut? I have seen them called a weed as they do tend to seed in very heavy in the understory. </div></div>


Me too, I believe that is the hickory growing on my bottom land sites taking up quality walnut spaces!! A few will stay though since diversity is key.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: letemgrow</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DWilk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">-dbltree

I'm curious as to what your forester recommended to do with the bitternut? I have seen them called a weed as they do tend to seed in very heavy in the understory. </div></div>


Me too, I believe that is the hickory growing on my bottom land sites taking up quality walnut spaces!! A few will stay though since diversity is key. </div></div>

He said that hickories are increasing in value but as a whole they can easily destroy an oak woodlot by taking over.

This is why he encouraged burning to kill young hickories while oaks can survive the flames.

I'm going to pretty much kill both shagbark and bitternut hickories unless they are nearing market stage.

As far as I'm concerned both hickory types are pretty invasive and from a wildlife standpoint they have little value in my habitat program.


Everything I do in my case will be done to encourage both wild and planted oaks, especially white oaks.

He also mentioned that red and black oaks hybridize and that in southern Iowa they almost need a DNA test to tell which is which.

In northern Iowa, red oaks are more prevalant then blacks. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[letemgrow]

That is some neat info!! I did not know they hybridized regularly like that where it was hard to tell them apart. I girdled some black oaks the other day that were by some norther reds.

I called around to some saw mills about buying hickories and only one returned my phone call and they said they were only taking cottonwoods.

I would like to find a place taking them since I am dropping and leaving right now. You know any places to call??? I am striking out here in Northern MO.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">only taking cottonwoods </div></div>

and they are only used for making pallets, so not worth much.

I don't know about where to market hickories, he mentioned that they use them for hickory cabinets and so have increased in value.

Right now of course building and remodeling is almost nil so perhaps the markets are dead for now?

You might give this place a call just to find out if there even is a market...

Geode Forestry Inc. (http://www.geodeforestry.com/)

[letemgrow]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbltree</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">only taking cottonwoods </div></div>



I don't know about where to market hickories, he mentioned that they use them for hickory cabinets and so have increased in value.

</div></div>


If they do go up in value I will be able to retire early /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

The forester I talked to said loggers usually only take them with another sale such as walnuts, oaks etc.

Time to do some bird dogging looks like and see where it stands.

[Sligh1]

I have 146 acres in Burlington with a good amount of Cottonwoods. There's an Amish guy (not bonded) that buys Cottonwood for $100 per 1000 Board feet- which is a great price from what I understand. If I am thinking right on this, if you get 2 nice trees that would be about 1,000 board foot OR $50 a tree- for a cottonwood that's pretty good. If you had 6 cottonwoods an acre you'd be doing very well! ($300 per acre, say you had 50 acres of them- $15,000).

Did some TSI this weekend, my body is SHOT!!! Freed up TONS of walnut, Red Oak, Swamp Oak- it was bottom ground of course. I also hinge cut many areas that were super open (maple bottoms). *YES, I should have taken pictures- sorry!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did some TSI this weekend, my body is SHOT!!! </div></div>

You young guys are such wimps! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Actually I know how you feel...I felt like I had been beat with a baseball bat... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Here are some examples of some young white oaks that could stand to be thinned a little

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Whiteoakclumps.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/WhiteOakStands.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/YoungWhiteoaks.jpg

Nice problem...too many white oaks! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Here's an example of how this situation gets started...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/ClumpofBurrOaks.jpg

From stump regrowth

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/OakStump.jpg

So if you have some trees logged, remember to go back and thin the regrowth eventually to one strong stem... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

MDC White Oak Key (http://mdc.mo.gov/forest/IandE/oak_hickory/w_oak.htm)

[letemgrow]

great pics!!! That is a nice problem to have....too many white oaks, I would get them thinned too since it will be hard to produce a lot of acorns with so much competition.

Skip,

I won't believe it until I see the pics /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[letemgrow]

I think those stump sprouts are great!!! If you trim them to the best sprout. I will take some pics of the walnuts that resprouted after they were logged out.

Deer must absolutely love walnut sprouts cause they would not let the sprouts grow over 2 foot tall. Until I put the guards up on them and then they grew 10 feet in one year!!

[letemgrow]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sligh1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Did some TSI this weekend, my body is SHOT!!! </div></div>

I sure do sleep good after a 5 hours of TSI though /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

[dbltree]

Now that I have done Timber Stand Improvment, learned to identify tree species and which ones are shade tolerant versus oaks (which are NOT shade tolerant) I've been much more aware of what's actually growing on my property.

There's a whole lot more young white oaks then I previously had been aware of... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Whiteoaks1.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/WhiteOakBark-1.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Whiteoakleaf-1.jpg

They are relatively easy to find by searching out the huge parent trees and then finding the young white oaks around the perimeter areas.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Youngnoldwhiteoak.jpg

In some of these areas I chose to hinge cut "cull" trees around the "baby" white oaks to give them light and growing room.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/HingeCuts1.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/HingeCuts2.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/HingeCuts3.jpg

There is no need to worry about the huge parent oaks, they are mature and nothing is going to phase them now. The little oaks however don't stand a chance under the shade tolerant hickories, elms and locust trees.

So I search out these little white oaks which still have their leaves even here in late March.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/SmallWhiteOak.jpg

Even from a distance the WO leaves are darker then the ever common shingle oaks and readily noticable as I walk thru the timber.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/YoungWOleafnBark.jpg

Most crop trees are released by girdling or "hack n squirt" using Tordon but I had several areas that were way to open so hinging junk trees to create a bedding area and releasing the young oaks will work well.

Much of our timber here in Iowa is rapidly changing over from oak to hickory, maple, ironwood, locust and shingle oaks...none of which have the kind of timber or hard mast value that white oaks do.

Burning and TSI culling methods are a couple ways of reversing this trend.

When it comes to holding whitetails on our property...white oaks are far and away superior then any of other species mentioned above.

Take time to learn more about your timber or wooded areas and start encouraging white oaks that may be growing there or by killing trees and replanting oaks either with acorns or seedlings. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[letemgrow]

Why do you think that is changing?? I can tell on my place the areas that are full of hickory and lucust were oak flats...by the big old logging stumps from 20+ years ago that were never replaced. The hickory and locust took over at least on my farm. It also appears to me that deer play a part. They love white oak acorns but do not eat hickory nuts.

To me, it appears it was man made. The reasons why oaks are getting replaced. I also think that cattle browse young oaks more than they would say a hickory sprout.


Great pics Paul!!!!

[letemgrow]

I also noticed on my place that I have a TON of swamp white oak and bur oak sprouts coming up, but not nearly as many regular white oaks. There are plenty of big white oaks to produce some trees so I can only assume the deer eat most of them or something as why I am not seeing young white oak seedlings. That is a trend I am going to switch also /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[singlecoyote]

Does anyone else have acres of ironwood? I waged war on it this week and hardly scratched the surface.

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: Single Coyote
Does anyone else have acres of ironwood? I waged war on it this week and hardly scratched the surface.



I have one woodlot that is infested with it so I'm working on eradicating it (if that's possible )



My forester warned me to keep killing it or I'll regret not doing so...



it appears it was man made. The reasons why oaks are getting replaced.



That it is! Intensive logging years ago combined with the pasturing of much of Iowas timber has allowed other species to take over.

Fire was always an important tool that helped elminate other species whle leaving the fire resistant oaks behind.

Landowners haven't bothered with fire orany other type of managment for so long that muck of our white oak habitat is going the way of the bison and passenger pigeons...

Awarness is a key issue and with more habitat concious landowners taking an interest....maybe we can reverse the trend!

[letemgrow]

It is being reversed on my place that's for sure!!! I hope others follow suit and see what is happening to their timbers instead of just seeing that it is still green so it is in good shape.

Interesting note, one of the passenger pigeon's staple foods was the american chestnut which started dying in 1904 from the blight.

[letemgrow]

The owner of the farm before me used to run cows in there all year and I can tell that's one reason why the areas that grew up were honey locust and hickory predominately. Large, mature oaks are right around those areas, but I think the cows graze oaks more than hickories so they helped shape the landscape so to speak.

From what I can tell, deer and cows will browse young oaks, but do not seem to touch hickories too much. If that does not help shape the landscape, I do not know what does.

[letemgrow]

Here is what the areas where I opened up the canopy look like now....lots of baby oaks!!!

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Oak_Regeneration.jpg

[dbltree]

Well it's the end of June and I thought I would share a few pics from my TSI project last winter at this point just looking for "kills" and those that thus far have refused to die.

I didn't get close enough to the girdled tree to see it but you can see the sunlight and undergrowth it creates.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Girdled.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Dead.jpg

I found that ALL oaks and locusts were very easily killed via girdling, mainly shingle oaks that were interfering with good crop oaks or lessor quality black oak to close to a better crop oak tree.

Sunshine on the forst floor is the sign of success here

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/DSC06101.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/DSC06100.jpg

A few shingle oaks were clinging to life but aren't long for this world

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/DSC06094.jpg

The smaller hinge cut hickories were still very much alive

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/DSC06092.jpg

But locust trees stone cold dead

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/DSC06091.jpg

You can see the "girdles" here and subsequent sunlight

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/DSC06089.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/DSC06088.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/DSC06087.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/DSC06086.jpg

The problem trees I found to be girdled hickories and maples with the hickories thus far showing no sign of distress while mapes are at least starting to appear "sick".

This girdled maple's leaves have started to turn red while ungirdled maples nearby are healthy and green

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/GirdledMapleinlateJune.jpg

I'm going to monitor the hickories as they perhaps will need a dose of Tordon to put them out of their misery...:D

I have a stand of 70-80 year old white pines and wind sent the top crashing out of one of them.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/DSC06093.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/DSC06095.jpg

Just thought I would share in case you might consider (foolishly) to stick stubbornly to your stand in high winds...as I use to...;)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/DSC06096.jpg

They do come down and being safely strapped in could prove fatal on windy day...:rolleyes:

I haven't checked my white oak TSI project but I'm hoping for some "babies" like letemgrow shared...:)

[Daver]

Paul - I have had very similar results from my TSI project too, in terms of the hickories appearing to be able to "take it" more than other species. I have multiple double girdled hickories that are still very much alive this year. (These were girdled in Jan-May 2008.)

The hickories have a thinner than normal leaf cover this year, having been impacted by the double girdling, but they are still far from dead. Meanwhile, oaks in particular are deader than a doornail from the same treatment. I was thinking I would re-girdle the hickories this winter.

Even so, the whole area affected is MUCH greener and leafier at the ground level this year. I can really see a difference in the understory in my timber, even with some of the hickories holding on. It is starting to look "jungleicious" in there, something I think the big bucks will prefer. :)

[dbltree]

I was thinking I would re-girdle the hickories this winter.


I would p/u some Tordon TRU from TSC Dave, it's only 16 bucks and a little goes a long ways.

Put it in the fresh girdles or make some "hack" marks with a hatchet or small axe on a downward angle and pour some in.

This pic is kinda dark but these are dead locust trees that my son did the "hack n squirt" on using Tordon RTU, no girdling, just hack marks and Tordon.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Deadlocusttrees.jpg

This method is a little faster and eaiser then re-girdling trees although those doggone hickories may require both. :rolleyes:

Different subject but the elms at my place are dying at a rapid rate...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Deadelms.jpg

No girdling needed....;)

[letemgrow]

The hickories I girdled this past winter are still very much alive. I will see how they look this fall and go from there. I do not see how they will not die though, I mean the cambium layer is cut off so they are just going on stored nutrients.

[letemgrow]

Here is a pic of took back on 06/06, there are 8 young white oaks growing in this area where the hickories were hinge cut to allow sunlight in. I have 2 giant white oaks left in this general area to replenish the stock after white oaks were taken out over 20 years ago and never replaced so the hickories ran wild being better at handling shade they were just laying in wait.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Farm%20Trip%2006-06-09/FarmTrip06-06022.jpg

[dbltree]

Here is a pic of took back on 06/06, there are 8 young white oaks growing in this area where the hickories were hinge cut to allow sunlight in. I have 2 giant white oaks left in this general area to replenish the stock after white oaks were taken out over 20 years ago and never replaced so the hickories ran wild being better at handling shade they were just laying in wait.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Farm%20Trip%2006-06-09/FarmTrip06-06022.jpg

That's what I'm hoping for by my white oak stand but I haven't check it yet. That picture is a great example of what we are working towards when doing TSI! :way:

[letemgrow]

It's amazing what a little sweat and hard work can accomplish.

[dbltree]

Took some pictures from the results of last winter TSI projects and what they look like this fall.

I kill competition both by girdling and hinge cutting depending on the situation.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI7.jpg

It easy to walk thru and see the dead trees againt the skyline and the released oaks thriving.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI6.jpg

Some oaks were small but had no chance under the shade tolerant hickories until being released!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI8.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Releasedwhiteoak.jpg

New browse erupts from stumps

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI3.jpg

and I hinged smaller trees to create living bruspiles

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI5.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI1-2.jpg

Deer were bedded in among these tops when I walked in

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI2.jpg

You can see the huge old parent oaks in the background in this pic where I tipped over everything around them

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI4.jpg

and that allowed new oak seedlings to come up and in time they will take the place of trees I have killed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Oakseedling.jpg

Always identify your crop trees before firing up the chainsaw and it's usually safer and eaiser to girdle larger cull trees and then hinge smaller cull trees for bedding.

In some areas with no oaks present I interplanted swamp white oaks among the downed tops but it's now so thick in there I haven't checked on them.

Hunting season is upon us so I'll check on the flagged seedlings early next spring and spray them with Oust and keep and undesireable growth killed back.

In time I will turn the tide and return my timber to oak habitat rather then hickory and maple that have little use in my habitat program...:way:

[letemgrow]

Here is another area where I have started to work on the hickories:

I ended up planting some hybrid white oak acorns, american chestnut seeds, northern red oak acorns, downy serviceberry, flowering dogwood, shumard oak seedlings, eastern red bud and a concordia oak in this area. The top is flat and this picture is the north facing slope which chestnuts and northern red oaks should do well on.

I took some tree tubes and seeds with me each trip to the stand that fall and planted some either going to the stand or coming out at night.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/TSIonHickories.jpg

[letemgrow]

This is a picture from one of my stands, the stand is in a big northern red oak. The trees with red circles are all targeted to be cut and are hickories. This is another north facing slope that will be replaced with a few american chestnuts and northern red oaks for sure.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/westpic.jpg

[letemgrow]

Here is the view from another stand on the farm...I already cut down all the hickory trees that are marked in the photo so now the oaks can spread their crowns.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/008.jpg

[dbltree]

replaced with a few american chestnuts and northern red oaks

I have several acres I need to completely kill and start over with interplanted oak and chestnut seedlings. Lot of work but the trees there now are just junk, like box elders and there is no chance of it becoming anything but in several lifetimes if i don't intervene...;)

[letemgrow]

I have several acres I need to completely kill and start over with interplanted oak and chestnut seedlings. Lot of work but the trees there now are just junk, like box elders and there is no chance of it becoming anything but in several lifetimes if i don't intervene...;)


It is time to get on the ball then!! :drink2:

I will be sitting in that northern red oak next time I am back so I can plant the american chestnut seeds that just came in from the ACCF and the northern red oaks in tubes. Then I will go back in there after deer season and girlde the hickory or cut them down depending on angles etc so the young, soon to be seedlings can thrive where they were designed to grow.

This area had a few northern red oaks taken out, but there are still at least 6 good sized trees dropping northern red oak acorns and I saw a few seedlings around so I will focus more on the chestnuts there since the NRO are already well established. The northern red oak acorns are from trees that were loaded with acorns while others around them had far less and were the same sized trees so either they have better genetics or had a better time at pollinating.

[dgallow]

Quote:
Did some TSI this weekend, my body is SHOT!!!



You young guys are such wimps! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Actually I know how you feel...I felt like I had been beat with a baseball bat... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Here are some examples of some young white oaks that could stand to be thinned a little

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Whiteoakclumps.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/WhiteOakStands.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/YoungWhiteoaks.jpg

Nice problem...too many white oaks! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

What is the approximate white oak density per acre be in these pics? About how many would be culled? Just trying to get a 'vision' in my mind of what the proper density should look like!

[dbltree]

What is the approximate white oak density per acre be in these pics? About how many would be culled? Just trying to get a 'vision' in my mind of what the proper density should look like!

If at all possible you should always walk your property with a forester and they will recomend the poper density.

In my case no more then 50 crop trees per acre although in some case I have almost none because they are all junk trees. I just keep killing those and re-planting oaks.

Some of my property has very old giant savana type white oaks surrounded by poor quality shingle oaks and hickories, so killing the cull trees allows the acorns from the parent trees to grow.

I like to lower density to a point where it encourages undergrowth...if you can see nothing but wide open space in your timber...it's not the best whitetail habitat....;)

[letemgrow]

I like to lower density to a point where it encourages undergrowth...if you can see nothing but wide open space in your timber...it's not the best whitetail habitat....;)

I second that notion, that is great for calling in spring turkeys, but not so much for whitetails. :way:

Mature, mast producing trees along with lots of browse and cover would be the ideal habitat.

[Hat Trick]

In the pictures that Letemgrow posted where the white oaks have come back up around the mature oak is obviously what a lot of us are looking for in our timbers when managing for whitetails. My question is does any of you dig those up and replant those or is that more work than just direct nut seed planting efforts? I am going to be working my rear end off this fall on TSI/Edge Feathering/Bedding on the farm. Maybe this is answered in a different discussion. Good stuff in here though.

[letemgrow]

Hat trick,

If you have enough mature white oaks, I would think you could just let nature take it's course and clear out around them and let the squirrels to do the rest. If you are really a go getter, you could dig up the oaks, anytime in the fall after they go dormant would be the best time instead of spring. This way they can start growing their roots until the ground freezes and be that much farther ahead of spring planted seedlings.

If planting, I would direct seed acorns instead of seedlings if the same species is available in acorns or seedlings. They have to be guarded though or the squirrels will find most of them.

[dbltree]

If planting, I would direct seed acorns instead of seedlings if the same species is available in acorns or seedlings. They have to be guarded though or the squirrels will find most of them

Check the Tree Planting thread for discussion on that subject...;)

[Sligh1]

Anyone have problems with Prickly Ash? I have areas that are infested with it. I also have areas that I did TSI jobs in that OBVIOUSLY created more prickly ash than I'd like.

How would you all control it? Can be pretty thick. Could just snip or cut off with barely touching the chainsaw to it - then hitting with Tordon BUT I was wondering if any of you have other methods or fast ways of killing it? Thanks!

[letemgrow]

I sprayed some last summer with a heavy dose of roundup and it seemed to kill it all, may need another dose this year tho. It is pretty heavy in places on my farm, but I only kill it where I am planting more desirable stuff.

[dgallow]

Anyone have problems with Prickly Ash? I have areas that are infested with it. I also have areas that I did TSI jobs in that OBVIOUSLY created more prickly ash than I'd like.

How would you all control it? Can be pretty thick. Could just snip or cut off with barely touching the chainsaw to it - then hitting with Tordon BUT I was wondering if any of you have other methods or fast ways of killing it? Thanks!

We don't have prickly ash that I'm aware of...but if it's truly an ash then Remedy would do a good job. Most trees less than 3" basal diameter can be effectively controlled with a basal bark application to the lower 12" of stem with Remedy Ultra;Diesel fuel (3;1). This can be done at any time of year, except in standing water or snow....whenever one has time is acceptable. The killed sprout base should rot within a year for most trees and the kill is complete through the root collar. Highest kill rates are when saplings are in smooth bark stage. You can also kill rough barked ones, but it will take more product and attention to detail during application... eg don't miss a spot. For 'hard to control' species, treat when actively growing in May and June but not during droughty conditions. The nice thing about Remedy is that it doesn't migrate with soil water so one can spray in close proximity to a crop tree without colateral damage.

I've killed some 10-12' trees with late summer foliar gly app but that uses quite a bit of chemical and final death seems delayed for at least one growing season....plus anything green under the tree gets nuked. With rem;diesel we can cut that size of tree down....leave a 2-4" stump...treat the stump down to soil level and the stump/roots will be dead within a year and only vegetaion around the stump is killed.

Here is a hickory we 'basal bark' treated earlier this winter. Prolly the easiest sprout kill method out there, excepting a hot forward fire.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn30/dgallow/basalbark101.jpg

[letemgrow]

This is a pic of an old oak stump that was logged out many years ago...what do you see that replaced the oak?

Hint: It is not very valuable. :D

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/TrailCamPics004.jpg

It is even less valuable now!! :D The rest still standing were just girdled since they were a little large to be falling, or would not fall where I needed them too. Not evey hickory was cut in this stand of course, just the ones blocking some oaks crowns that look like good trees.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/TrailCamPics001-1.jpg

Another thing that compounds my problem, heavy deer browsing on any oak that is planted. Tree guards or planting where deer cannot reach them is the only way to get anything to grow on my place. Dang deer anyways :D

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/TrailCamPics006.jpg

Walnut that was suffering the same fate from a stump sprout off a logged walnut a few years ago. A wire cage on the best re-sprout and it jumped up to 15 feet already while the surrounding sprouts will never get above the browse line.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/TrailCamPics008.jpg

[dbltree]

Nice work Phil!

[dbltree]

Prescribed fire signifi-cantly increased the density of oak seedlings and sprouts < 10 cm tall. Prescribed fire also reduced the density of red maple regeneration

There is no question that fire can be a valuable tool in encouraging oak regeneration and lowering the density of many invasive, shade tolerant species. Discuss your long term timber goals with your forester and come up with a Forest Stewardship Plan that may or may not include burning as a management tool.

After doing my own due diligence and discussing the use of fire as a tool on my property I have been encouraged to use fire more often to not only as a timber management tool but a means of encouraging more natural native browse.

Removing leaf litter can increase the density of native forbs and grasses useful to whitetails and other wildlife.

The following links will give you further detailed information on the subject of burning of oak regeneration, how it works, why it works and problems you may encounter.

First-Year Effects of Prescribed Burning on Oak Regeneration (http://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/6651)

White oak seedling height growth differed significantly among the three burn treatments. Seedlings in the single year burn sites had the greatest height growth, while seedlings in the non-burned controls had the least. Diameter growth was significantly greater in the single year burns than the controls.


Prescription burning to promote oak regeneration (http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/nreos/forest/feop/Agenda2003/symposium/proceedings_2003/PDFs/Rieske-Kinney.pdf)

Using Fire to Regenerate Oak After Clearcutting (http://www.forestencyclopedia.net/p/p605)

Using Prescribed Fire For Oak Management (http://www.forestencyclopedia.net/p/p604)

Prescribed Burns In Eastern Mixed-oak Forests (http://www.dof.virginia.gov/fire/resources/FireScience-Brief_Issue-46_May-2009.pdf)

Fire can be a powerful tool in enhancing our habitat but knowledge and understanding beforehand will help determine your goals and then you can decide if using prescribed burns in your timber is right for you...;)

[dbltree]

Spring is a great time to be out looking for 'shrooms and taking inventory on your oaks at the same time. The leaves of young oaks tend to stand out and I often go back with brush nippers and nip away any competing trees.

White oak seedling

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Tree%20ID/WOleaves.jpg

White Oak young tree

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Tree%20ID/Whiteoakleaves-1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Tree%20ID/WhiteOak.jpg

Black oak

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Tree%20ID/BlackOakleaves.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Tree%20ID/Blackoakleaf-1.jpg

At my place the competing trees are often shingle oaks

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Tree%20ID/ShingleOakleaves.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Tree%20ID/SO.jpg

and the they stand out in stark contrast this time of year...white oak on left and shingle center behind

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Tree%20ID/WOnShingle.jpg

Here we have a black on the left, shingle oak and then a giant white oak towering behind

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Tree%20ID/BOSOWO.jpg

This is NOT a good time of year to thin oaks themselves because of oak wilt but other species can be nipped off or trimmed away or at least a mental note made for a winter TSI project... ;)

[tricuspid]

I am preparing to release some nice white and red oak as well as cherry on my farm with hack and squirt. You guys don't seem to use it as much as girdleing and hing cutting. Any reason? I will be using Arsenal and Roundup.. full strengh.
Thanks.

[dbltree]

I am preparing to release some nice white and red oak as well as cherry on my farm with hack and squirt. You guys don't seem to use it as much as girdleing and hing cutting. Any reason? I will be using Arsenal and Roundup.. full strengh.
Thanks.


I use hack n squirt on smaller trees but usually a double girdle and herbicide is required on larger trees, especially where cost share is being paid.

Even at that it may take some large maples and hickories several years to die.

The object of hinge cutting is NOT to kill the tree so as to encourage growth and cover for whitetails yet reduce canopy around crop trees.

Remedy and dsl fuel wroks well for basal spraying of many smaller trees and brush. I like Tordon RTU for hack and squirt on locust and other small trees but in the end one should use what ever is effective on your intended target cull trees.

Welcome to IW! :)

[tricuspid]

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have learned a great deal reading your TSI musings.
Take care.
Tom

[DE2IA]

Dbltree are the Shingle Oaks not good for deer? I have a few that I had saved but I don't know that much about them.

[dbltree]

Dbltree are the Shingle Oaks not good for deer? I have a few that I had saved but I don't know that much about them.

They are...deer and turkeys will eat the acorns but they have little or no value as timber trees. Shingle oaks are quite invasive and spread easily so I often hinge many of them for bedding areas and encourage growth and regeneration of white and red oaks if possible.

In short I don't try to eradicate them but also don't allow them to take over and dominate my timber....;)

[letemgrow]

They are...deer and turkeys will eat the acorns but they have little or no value as timber trees. Shingle oaks are quite invasive and spread easily so I often hinge many of them for bedding areas and encourage growth and regeneration of white and red oaks if possible.

In short I don't try to eradicate them but also don't allow them to take over and dominate my timber....;)


Exactly what I do, some are left since they produce loads of small acorns, but there are better oaks that do the same and also have timber value such as Northern Reds, white oak, bur oak, swamp white oak etc. :way:

[tricuspid]

My dozer is a heck of a lot stronger than my knees after 5 operations, so I ask: If i push over a 10-20" tree with the dozer, will the top yeild any browse the next year? I am also concerned about lack of bedding areas on my place. Can I make both by using the dozer?
Thanks.

[letemgrow]

My dozer is a heck of a lot stronger than my knees after 5 operations, so I ask: If i push over a 10-20" tree with the dozer, will the top yeild any browse the next year? I am also concerned about lack of bedding areas on my place. Can I make both by using the dozer?
Thanks.

I doubt it will if the roots come out of the ground, now if you can just break the top off it should send up a lot of sprouts for great browse and cover.

[tricuspid]

One last question. I am hinge cutting tall, spindley 9",close trees. I do not see how they will not hang up on their neighbors. In order to keep their top growth, would it be better to leave them hung at the tops and count on hard winds, or force them over with the dozer?

[dbltree]

One last question. I am hinge cutting tall, spindley 9",close trees. I do not see how they will not hang up on their neighbors. In order to keep their top growth, would it be better to leave them hung at the tops and count on hard winds, or force them over with the dozer?

I usually allow high winds to topple them in time but just use caution both when cutting and entering the area in the future.

I've had them tip over 20 minutes later and just about got knocked silly...:D

[dbltree]

Sitting in a tree stand on a neighbors farm I have permission to hunt, I can't help but notice that it could sure use some Timber Stand Improvement.

The oak tree in the center is surrounded by all kinds of less desirable tree species that need to be killed to free up the crop tree.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/IMG_0019.jpg

All around me there were stands of hickories that offered nothing positive in the way of whitetail habitat yet if not near a crop tree would not normally be considered "weed tree's" under a TSI forest stewardship plan.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/IMG_0020.jpg

These are the type of areas that would be better off hinged or girdled and treated to open up the understory rather then be left as is.

The hickories have a shading canopy that allows almost nothing to grow underneath.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/IMG_0018.jpg

Only yards away a different type of tree species that are less shading has allowed a natural succession to brushy, shrubby understory that is full of deer beds and runways. True TSI usually helps open up canopy and allows the same type of undergrowth to spring up.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/IMG_0017.jpg

Timber Stand Improvement usually involves girdling and chemically treating and weed trees in the same respect we weed our gardens to allow the crop tree to grow faster and to produce more/better/acorns crops. Hinging the weed trees is just away of utilizing the weed trees and converting them to potential bedding,cover and browse rather then just dead trees left to slowly slough away.... ;)

[Packnasty]

A very useful tip to anyone wanting to get rid of buckthorn or honeysuckle...

They hold onto their leaves longer than the natives, so the best time to cut them is in another couple of weeks. They'll be very easy to pick out and will stand out in the timber. Cut them down and have someone follow you spraying their stumps with glyphosate...but don't cut them without spraying them.


Very useful forum. Thanks DBltree!

[dbltree]

A very useful tip to anyone wanting to get rid of buckthorn or honeysuckle...

They hold onto their leaves longer than the natives, so the best time to cut them is in another couple of weeks. They'll be very easy to pick out and will stand out in the timber. Cut them down and have someone follow you spraying their stumps with glyphosate...but don't cut them without spraying them.


Very useful forum. Thanks DBltree!

Good advice! :way:

[dgallow]

Staight glyphosate (41%) or straight triclopyr (~60%).....from your experiences which would be most effective on killing hickory via hack/squirt? Mixed opinions based on those I've talked with so far!

[dbltree]

Staight glyphosate (41%) or straight triclopyr (~60%).....from your experiences which would be most effective on killing hickory via hack/squirt? Mixed opinions based on those I've talked with so far!

I've been using Tordon so I can't say for certain on the other two but my forester tells me straight gly is just as effective as anything else.

Guess I ought to try a little experimenting...;)

[letemgrow]

Looks like I will be getting a foresty plan wrote up by an approved forester through the MDC...hopefully a little funding to follow for the TSI work too!! I will be sure to post up the process if/when that happens.

[dbltree]

Looks like I will be getting a forestry plan wrote up by an approved forester through the MDC...hopefully a little funding to follow for the TSI work too!! I will be sure to post up the process if/when that happens.

Sweet! Both EQIP and WHIP offer TSI funding although it is only 1/3 what Iowa's REAP TSI cost share provides. Still...anything is a plus and you can apply the cash towards other habitat projects! :way:

[letemgrow]

Sweet! Both EQIP and WHIP offer TSI funding although it is only 1/3 what Iowa's REAP TSI cost share provides. Still...anything is a plus and you can apply the cash towards other habitat projects! :way:

Exactly my plan!! I will take what I can get that is free anyways....I have a lot of protex tree tubes to buy. :D

[dbltree]

Some pics from a TSI project I did a while back....

example of Crop Tree and cull trees (marked X)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/IMG_0002-1.jpg

Looking skyward at same trees at competing canopy

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/IMG_0003-1.jpg

Cull trees are girdled to kill them and release the crop tree

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/IMG_0004-1.jpg

Reducing canopy allows the released crop tree to grow faster, produce more mast and also encourages oak regeneration

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/IMG_0005.jpg


I hinge smaller trees in these areas but all the larger trees are girdled for not only my safety but to limit damages to crop trees. Large trees falling against the crop trees can damage limbs and open up wounds that make them susceptible to diseases such as oak wilt. Girdled trees open up canopy instantly but slough away slowly without causing harm to surrounding trees. ;)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/IMG_0006.jpg

[letemgrow]

How long is it taking you to cover an acre like in your pictures...with the larger trees? I have a 7 acre project to start in the next couple weeks. The MDC is paying me to cut down all the hickory and honey locusts....the real kicker is I get to keep the few swamp white oak and the lone bur oak standing....then I get to plant back into it whatever I want. Be it NWSG, shrubs, oaks etc....not a bad program.

[dbltree]

How long is it taking you to cover an acre like in your pictures...with the larger trees? I have a 7 acre project to start in the next couple weeks. The MDC is paying me to cut down all the hickory and honey locusts....the real kicker is I get to keep the few swamp white oak and the lone bur oak standing....then I get to plant back into it whatever I want. Be it NWSG, shrubs, oaks etc....not a bad program.

Every stand is different but it takes me 1-2 hours per acre I suppose and I hinge all the ironwood and smaller hickory and elm which is far more time consuming then just girdling competing canopy....;)

[letemgrow]

Every stand is different but it takes me 1-2 hours per acre I suppose and I hinge all the ironwood and smaller hickory and elm which is far more time consuming then just girdling competing canopy....;)


Good!! I should be able to finish that job in 2 days...then it is on to other projects. :drink2:

[dbltree]

finish that job in 2 days

126 acres may take me a tad longer Phil...:eek: :D

Be safe in the timber Phil...:way:

[letemgrow]

126 acres may take me a tad longer Phil...:eek: :D

Be safe in the timber Phil...:way:

You will be a master no doubt by the time that job is over with. :drink2:

How is the PPE working out thus far?

[IQDM]

Today we took to the task of clear cutting a 2 acre poplar woods... The woods looks fairly open now, but in the summer there is no light getting to the forest floor.<O:p</O:p
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00694.jpg<O:p></O:p>
As you can see there is little to no browse within reach of the deer.<O:p</O:p
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00693.jpg<O:p></O:p>
We used an excavator to push some of the outside trees over in an experiment to see if the poplar trees will survive using this method. If so, then they are as good as hinge-cut! :way:<O:p</O:p
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00683.jpg
<O:p>http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00685.jpg</O:p>
<O:p>http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00688.jpg</O:p>
We cut all the trees on the south half of the woods, leaving some standing on the north and west sides for wind protection. Cutting the southern trees will hopefully allow the much needed light to shine in under the trees left standing. <O:p</O:p
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00698.jpg<O:p></O:p>
Cutting the trees high, left a 6' stump remaining. I felt this would provide at least some visual barrier/cover for the deer, not just an open hole in the forest. I don't know if this was a good idea or not, but it made sense at the time... :confused:<O:p</O:p
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00710.jpg
<O:p>http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00712.jpg</O:p>
Using a Skid steer and grapple, we took the trees and piled them up to funnel deer movement to cross a ditch at just the right spot!:way:
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00676.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00702.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00704.jpg
This was my first "Logging operation" other than hinging. So I tried some different things, learned some different things, and had some fun doing it! There isn't a better feeling of accomplishment than when you get done with a full day's work in the woods! :)

[dbltree]

I suspect those stumps will send up a ton of new shoots but keep us posted on how those trees react to being cut. Nice work on the funneling efforts!! I often see people burning those trees when they could have been used to funnel deer...well done!

Timber Stand Improvement is usually crop tree release that includes marking and inventorying the crop trees, then doing a 4 sided release of any cull trees with competing canopy.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI2-1.jpg

Marking the crop trees first makes it easier to go back through searching for competing trees

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI3-1.jpg

It's easy when the competing trees are "weed" trees like hickories, ash and basswood

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI1-3.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG1983.jpg

but often we find clumps of white or red oaks and we must choose which ones to cull

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG1980.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG1982.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG1976.jpg

TSI requires staring at the skyline a lot looking over the canopies

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG1972.jpg

Look for full canopies and cull trees with thin spindly canopies

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG1973.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG1975.jpg

Opening up canopy will release young oaks

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG1974.jpg

which will require thinning and culling in the future

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG1969.jpg

but without TSI the young oaks will succumb to intense shading canopy

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG1967.jpg

Give them a little light however and they will take off!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG1966.jpg

I usually bury the saw as I girdle so i don't need a double girdle

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI4-1.jpg

but use caution because you can see what is on the inside of the tree and sometimes even a light girdle can topple a tree with a rotted interior!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI5-1.jpg

Clumps of American Basswood are a pain to girdle!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI6-1.jpg

Maples are one species that I use a double girdle AND Tordon in the girdle!

This maple is still alive 3 years later with only one girdle

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI7-1.jpg

and is budding out once again

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI8-1.jpg

so I double girdled it with out Tordon just to see if I can kill it in that manner

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/TSI9.jpg

A leaning tree can pinch a saw even with just a girdle

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG2209.jpg

so when possible have a backup saw handy!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG2210.jpg

TSI is a relatively safe method of opening up canopy, increasing understory growth, encouraging oak regeneration, enhancing crop tree growth and mast production and providing more browse and cover for whitetails to boot.... :way:

[LANDROBBER13]

Well said and well done Dbltree. I would encourage anyone trying TSI to make all decisions first with paint. It is amazing how one's discernment changes when there is a sharp saw in his hands.
P.S. what is that green saw doing back in the picture? :D

[letemgrow]

Looks like some goodwork Paul!!!

Something else that helps, buy an extra bar and chain so you can take the saw off if it gets pinched and the put on the other bar/chain to free it.

[dbltree]

Looks like some goodwork Paul!!!

Something else that helps, buy an extra bar and chain so you can take the saw off if it gets pinched and the put on the other bar/chain to free it.

That's a great idea Phil! :way:

what is that green saw doing back in the picture

I kept the 20" Poulan and traded the 2 16" Poulan saws for a second Jonsared

The 20" runs like a top, probably cause it's older and made better....;)

[mmatthes90]

Ok guys, I've read this thread a few times in the last few days, and had a few questions... We are heading to the farm this weekend with chainsaws to trim trails back and get rid of a few trees. There are loads of shagbark hickory's and locusts, my first question is, can we take out the hickory's this weekend before the forester comes down in a few weeks or would it be best to wait until he walks the property? There a few locusts in an open pasture area we are going to plant cedars in, will they require a chemical treatment even if we cut them completely down? and the last, I've read dbltree mention Shingle Oaks multiple times, I'm 100% certain I know what these are, what are the main reasons for harvesting these as I've read they do produce acorns? (well that's what my tree book said, but it also said Black Oak acorns are a valuable food source for wildlife) Thanks guys!

[dbltree]

Ok guys, I've read this thread a few times in the last few days, and had a few questions... We are heading to the farm this weekend with chainsaws to trim trails back and get rid of a few trees. There are loads of shagbark hickory's and locusts, my first question is, can we take out the hickory's this weekend before the forester comes down in a few weeks or would it be best to wait until he walks the property? There a few locusts in an open pasture area we are going to plant cedars in, will they require a chemical treatment even if we cut them completely down? and the last, I've read dbltree mention Shingle Oaks multiple times, I'm 100% certain I know what these are, what are the main reasons for harvesting these as I've read they do produce acorns? (well that's what my tree book said, but it also said Black Oak acorns are a valuable food source for wildlife) Thanks guys!

If you looking to get cost share for TSI...don't do any work on those areas until the forester looks at it.

Shingle oaks have value as a mast producer but zero value as a crop tree for timber...I don't attempt to indiscriminately destroy shingle oaks but they are a cull tree that can be killed to favor better quality white and red oaks.

Locusts need to be treated unless you want them to come back because they will and with a vengeance!

Remember you have to have a plan for all of this...it's not about just whacking down trees and that's where the forester comes in. You also need to have an overall habitat plan in place...where do you need bedding areas and what low value trees can be hinged or girdled to create that cover?

Proceed with caution and learn all you can from the forester first, crop trees need to be marked and you must be able to identify white and red oaks even down to an inch DBH.

Just some things to think about while your anxiously and eagerly waiting to begin your habitat improvements....:)

[mmatthes90]

Thanks Dbltree, I was wondering how that would effect the cost share. We have a plan in place and will definately wait until the forester visits, but we never had the intentions to go down and whack and stack trees when we are down there. I'm pretty familar with oak trees, although I don't know what DBH means... Thanks for the heads up on the locusts, will definately be stopping and buying chemicals tonight.

[dbltree]

I don't know what DBH means

Diameter at Breast Height...

Definition: Tree diameter at breast height. This has traditionally been the "sweet spot" on a tree where measurements are taken and a multitude of calculations are made to determine things like growth, volume, yield and forest potential.

Tree d.b.h. is outside bark diameter at breast height. Breast height is defined as 4.5 feet (1.37m) above the forest floor on the uphill side of the tree. For the purposes of determining breast height, the forest floor includes the duff layer that may be present, but does not include unincorporated woody debris that may rise above the ground line. :)

[mmatthes90]

Great! Thanks again, I'm going to try to take quite a few pictures while down there and post them on here for you guys(if I can figure out how) We're pretty excited to get started on this as the whole farm is in desperate need of some TLC

[letemgrow]

Ok guys, I've read this thread a few times in the last few days, and had a few questions... We are heading to the farm this weekend with chainsaws to trim trails back and get rid of a few trees. There are loads of shagbark hickory's and locusts, my first question is, can we take out the hickory's this weekend before the forester comes down in a few weeks or would it be best to wait until he walks the property? There a few locusts in an open pasture area we are going to plant cedars in, will they require a chemical treatment even if we cut them completely down? and the last, I've read dbltree mention Shingle Oaks multiple times, I'm 100% certain I know what these are, what are the main reasons for harvesting these as I've read they do produce acorns? (well that's what my tree book said, but it also said Black Oak acorns are a valuable food source for wildlife) Thanks guys!

I do not see a problem with you cutting down some locusts and hickories. As DT stated, make sure and treat the locust stumps or you will have a mess down the road with them.

The reason a lot of people hate shingle oaks is they grow like a weed....all over the place and they don't have much, if any timber value. I like having some around, but favor oaks such as: white, bur, swamp white, northern red and black oak over shingle oaks. Turkeys ate the crap out of the shingle oak acorns this winter on me and did not even touch the bean field so they do have value....at least in my eyes...but not a timber buyers eyes. ;)

[MK M GOBL]

Ok guys, I've read this thread a few times in the last few days, and had a few questions... We are heading to the farm this weekend with chainsaws to trim trails back and get rid of a few trees. There are loads of shagbark hickory's and locusts, my first question is, can we take out the hickory's this weekend before the forester comes down in a few weeks or would it be best to wait until he walks the property? There a few locusts in an open pasture area we are going to plant cedars in, will they require a chemical treatment even if we cut them completely down? and the last, I've read dbltree mention Shingle Oaks multiple times, I'm 100% certain I know what these are, what are the main reasons for harvesting these as I've read they do produce acorns? (well that's what my tree book said, but it also said Black Oak acorns are a valuable food source for wildlife) Thanks guys!

If you are going to plant cedars in the pasture area, I'm assuming you want to create a bedding area there. If that is the case, I see no problem with leaving the locusts there. Are there cedars in the area now? If so, I'd just let the locusts and cedars grow naturally, possibly kill any existing grass vegetation in the area now to speed up the process. My ideal bedding area would be an equal mixture of cedars, locust, and shingle oaks. If you have unlimited resources, by all means plant the cedars, but if your goal is bedding habitat, I'm guessing there are other areas of your farm that you could better spend your resources and just let that area mature on it's own.

[SEIowaDeerslayer]

Well last weekend I safely and successfully completed my hinge cutting project in the bedding areas on our 80 (whew!). Next step is the TSI work on the rest of the timbered areas on the farm. I have a couple of gallons probably of 41% gly that I'm wanting to use up so here are my questions. First may sound dumb but am I ok to spray the gly on the girdles this time of year?? I'm assuming yes. Second question is, do I use straight 41% gly or do a 50/50 mix of gly and water?? The trees I'm going to be double girdling are going to be mainly some very large locust and hickory, and probably 2 dozen maple trees. I'll also be cutting down 50-100 basswood completely and will want to spray the stumps. These are areas where I don't want any browse, just solid travel corridors where the dominant species is swamp white and red oak but is being threatened by these other species.

[dbltree]

50/50 mix of gly and water??

Try that mix...I use Tordon but they say a 50% gly spray will do the trick:way:

[LoessHillsArcher]

Looks like some goodwork Paul!!!

Something else that helps, buy an extra bar and chain so you can take the saw off if it gets pinched and the put on the other bar/chain to free it.

That is genious! I can't believe we didn't think of this... welll actually it doesn't surprise me. :rolleyes:

[letemgrow]

That is genious! I can't believe we didn't think of this... welll actually it doesn't surprise me. :rolleyes:

A genius would not get the saw stuck in the first place so us dummies have too improvise. :grin:

[dbltree]

Sometimes we have to kill invasives in either our timber or native grass fields and basal bark spraying when small trees and shrubs are dormant can be a great way to kill these problem trees.

Garlon, Remedy, Relegate and Crossbow are a few that can be mixed with diesel fuel and sprayed on the lower 12-20" of the stem in late winter to kill these trees or shrubs.

I chose Relegate (a generic form of Remedy) and used Trail Lite 2000 dye which is made to use with diesel fuel in this situation. We mixed the dsl fuel and herbicide 3 parts dsl and 1 part herbicide.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG2353.jpg

Our targets were nasty ole honey locusts that had invaded a new NWSG planting

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG2354.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG2358.jpg

The dye is nasty stuff, so don't wear clothes you care about!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG2359.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG2357.jpg

Be sure to soak the bottom area until the poison runs down the side of the stem

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG2356.jpg

The dye is not a prerequisite but it does help to tell where you have been and avoid missing areas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/CIMG2355.jpg

We'll check back this spring and see how successful we were at killing the locusts, hopefully we nailed them and when we burn the NWSG the remaining remnants will go up in smoke.

Until I (unknowingly) wiped my dye soaked glove across my nose and face and walked into the local diner for lunch....it was a quiet day... ;)

[letemgrow]

How much is that Relegate going for? I have not found any generic Remedy in any local store I have checked and the real deal is pricey!! Although a 4-gallon mix will go a long ways in a back pack sprayer.

Can't wait to see how well the mix does this summer.

[dbltree]

How much is that Relegate going for? I have not found any generic Remedy in any local store I have checked and the real deal is pricey!! Although a 4-gallon mix will go a long ways in a back pack sprayer.

Can't wait to see how well the mix does this summer.

I ordered Relegate on Ebay Phil...$85 plus shipping of course

Relegate Herbicide (http://cgi.ebay.com/Relegate-Herbicide-1-Gal-Compare-Remedy-Ultra-ID-/390221232770?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5adaff7a82)

Phil noticed that the Remedy label says to just wet the surface while relegate says to "soak" it?? They are identical herbicides so my guess is that "soaking" is overkill but one could experiment and see what works best...;)

[whitetail fanatic]

used Trail Lite 2000 dye which is made to use with diesel fuel in this is situation...

Paul, can the dye be used with any herbicide mix? I was thinking of mixing some of that with oust when I spray around some young conifers to kill the weeds, otherwise I wouldn't know which ones I sprayed or not. Is the dye harmful in any way if you get it on trees or whatever? Seems like the dye would work pretty good for what I was planning on doing, let me know what you think!

thanks

edit: maybe this would work better, sounds like the trail lite 2000 has to be used with oil based sprays, but the trail lite 264 can be used with just about anything?

http://www.thetownsendcorp.com/userfiles/file/TrailLite264.pdf

[dbltree]

Paul, can the dye be used with any herbicide mix? I was thinking of mixing some of that with oust when I spray around some young conifers to kill the weeds, otherwise I wouldn't know which ones I sprayed or not. Is the dye harmful in any way if you get it on trees or whatever? Seems like the dye would work pretty good for what I was planning on doing, let me know what you think!

thanks

edit: maybe this would work better, sounds like the trail lite 2000 has to be used with oil based sprays, but the trail lite 264 can be used with just about anything?

http://www.thetownsendcorp.com/userfiles/file/TrailLite264.pdf

The dye I mentioned is just for use with oil based sprays Wes, but they have other dyes for water based herbicides and it won't hurt trees at all, I use it all the time.:way:

[Hardwood11]

I'll open this question to dbltree or anyone:

I recently bought a different farm in Iowa. While hunting this past weekend, I was on the far west end when I noticed a ladder stand on the neighbors property. It was literally one foot from the fence. I am sure the whoever sits there has been shooting across the line as a nice trail goes right by the stand on my side of the fence.

Should I hinge cut and create a tangled mess in front the stand, block the trail so that the deer head north quite a ways from the his stand?

I will talk to him eventually, but I don't really like to tell him what to do, prefer to take steps that I can control.

[dedgeez]

I'll open this question to dbltree or anyone:

I recently bought a different farm in Iowa. While hunting this past weekend, I was on the far west end when I noticed a ladder stand on the neighbors property. It was literally one foot from the fence. I am sure the whoever sits there has been shooting across the line as a nice trail goes right by the stand on my side of the fence.

Should I hinge cut and create a tangled mess in front the stand, block the trail so that the deer head north quite a ways from the his stand?

I will talk to him eventually, but I don't really like to tell him what to do, prefer to take steps that I can control.


I would talk to him and see what kind of guy he is first. One of the main purposes of hinge cutting and creating a "tangled mess" is to provide bedding cover and browse. So in essence, you would be shooting yourself in the foot if you ask me. JMO :way:

[Hardwood11]

I would talk to him and see what kind of guy he is first. One of the main purposes of hinge cutting and creating a "tangled mess" is to provide bedding cover and browse. So in essence, you would be shooting yourself in the foot if you ask me. JMO :way:

I suppose that is true, I guess I meant a screen or blockade of somekind...I think I have an idea of how to do it. I'll talk to him first, but he has every right to have his stand there and he will know I am out of state owner so I guess I am thinking about making it difficult to shoot into the land and also make it less desirable for a deer to go his direction.

If it was an open field I would stack hay bales right next to the stand, saw that one time it was a perfect screen:D

[Sligh1]

I had the same scenario year's back. I bought the farm so I was the new guy. But- I had as much right now as he did. He had a stand RIGHT on my line (our line). I personally would have liked to hunt that area myself. SO.... I approached him and respectfully but firmly said "hey, I'd like to hunt in that XYZ bottom too.... What if we both agreed to pull out of there and EACH of us BOTH stays 100 yards off the fence?" I left it up to him. He actually agreed and I was pleasantly surprised. If he would have said no, I would have had no guilt putting a stand up in the exact same spot- on my side- since I told him I want to hunt there on my land too. In reality- I wouldn't have hunted it BUT with my stand there, maybe he would have avoided it? If the guy is not willing to be at all flexible and compromising, I absolutely would do all I could to screen & block it off. If you did hinge the heck out of it there- just make sure you do it in other areas too SO that area isn't some destination bedding spot. Again, if he's difficult, I'd dually hang a stand there too in addition to the block off. Maybe try the 100 yards apart for BOTH of you 1st and see how that works?

[dbltree]

Should I hinge cut and create a tangled mess in front the stand, block the trail so that the deer head north quite a ways from the his stand?

Lot's of good thoughts on this so I will just add that you can certainly block it off with hinging. It is possible to create such a mess that few deer would consider bedding in it which is why/how we can create funnels with hinging. None of that has anything to do with TSI really but your problem is something we all run into at one time or another. Keep us posted on how your situation works out...;)

[dbltree]

Timber Stand Improvement

Step 1 Marking Crop Trees

This is the time of year when we most commonly do TSI work which is typically comprised of two main operations....Crop Tree Release where crop trees are located, marked and then weed/cull trees are killed to release the crop trees and Weed Tree Removal where ALL weed trees are killed to encourage oak regeneration. They are somewhat the same of course but with slightly different goals, so while we can use hinging as a tool to release crop trees (or to fall weed trees) it should be remembered that the act of hinging trees is NOT considered TSI. Timber Stand Improvement generally requires a plan and may or may not be funded with cost share designed to enhance and encourage our hardwood timbers which in turn has long lasting and far reaching economic benefits.

A side benefit is that wildlife will also benefit from increased mast production and in most cases increased ground cover/undergrowth due to reduced canopy. I personally incorporate hinging cull trees into a CTR or WTR and most Forest Stewardship Plans will allow falling small trees which I just hinge rather then cut down.

For the novice landowner it is critical to start by walking your timber with your forester because you may find that logging mature trees may be your first step. I wonder how many of you would turn down $10,000 if it was offered to you??

Almost any 40 with mature trees could easily have that much value and in many cases double that so it would border on insanity to just start indiscriminately killing/hinging trees without being certain of hat you have. Even a stand of mature maple could easily be worth the price of a new car so don't take these things for granted.

Marking crop trees then is critical because some stands may be ALL crop trees and you will need to decide which trees to kill and which are valuable crop trees that need to be released.

Forestry Suppliers (http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/) carries all kinds of marking and measuring tools but for marking crop trees I simply use spray cans and a easy to use applicator handle from Menards and I carry spare cans in a backpack.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Paint1.jpg

Cans with the larger nozzle work best, those with the old style often leak

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Paint2.jpg

It's difficult to see "the forest for the trees" as the saying goes so marking the crop trees first helps avoid making mistakes and allows us to inventory trees. In this pic you can see the red line on the large crop tree in the background.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/2011-11-21_09-10-49_881.jpg

Stands like this one have lot's of "junk" and few crop trees

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/2011-11-21_09-11-14_829.jpg

making it relatively easy to mark the crop trees

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/2011-12-01_09-40-02_732.jpg

but each stand is different and every landowner will be faced with unique situations and challenges that may leave the average landowner scratching their head on what to do?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/2011-12-01_09-58-32_111.jpg

Stands of pure white oak can be a nightmare to mark and require some thought and knowledge before doing so. Even two foresters will disagree on which trees to kill and which to leave standing.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/2011-12-01_11-16-37_620.jpg

I usually end up with a headache because marking requires looking at the canopies as much as the trees themselves.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/2011-12-01_11-30-37_977.jpg

Oaks like this are prime cull candidates when better specimens are in need of release

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/2011-12-01_11-34-52_879.jpg

Without marking first, releasing these trees would be a confusing and time consuming task

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/2011-12-01_11-34-46_885.jpg

Plans usually call for placing white or red oaks when deciding which tree to release

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/2011-12-01_13-38-17_237.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/2011-12-01_13-38-21_468.jpg

While at the same time using care to keep diversity in the stand

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/2011-12-01_13-38-28_733.jpg

Note the dying tree in the background...oak wilt is common in my area and both blacks and reds are more affected then whites.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/2011-12-01_13-43-28_297.jpg

Again difficult choices when

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/2011-12-01_13-53-19_179.jpg

The cull trees are all oaks!!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/2011-12-01_13-54-50_677.jpg

A look skyward makes the decision easier however

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/2011-12-01_13-54-56_146.jpg

Plans call for a "four sided release"...if only the trees were evenly spaced!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/2011-12-01_14-39-23_765.jpg

I often consult my IDNR State Forester Ray Lehn to make sure I am making good choices when dealing with valuable white oaks which often are "stump sprouts" resulting in doubles...to which Ray had the following advice...

Everything is relative on deciding to kill or not. There is always the potential for rot to enter the cut if you do kill one stem, but on white oak I think that threat is minimal, especially if the split is lower to the ground and a wide, U shaped, split. The quality of the stems is obviously important as is the size. I often look at surrounding trees to make the decision.

If killing one or more of the stems will benefit not only the multi stem remaining but also release a potential crop tree that is adjacent, then I tend to remove one or more of the stems. If all the multiple stems are relatively good quality and near harvestable size, I probably would not thin them. If one of the stems is significantly smaller than the others, but still competing, I would tend to remove it. TSI is an art as much as a science. Go paint and create your masterpiece.

This is a -V- shaped crotch that we may think twice about when deciding if we should kill one side

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Oak1.jpg

This has a -U- shaped crotch that is less likely to cause rot that might then kill the entire tree.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Oak3.jpg

if the tree is not crowding other trees it's usually best to leave it alone

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Oak5.jpg

but when the trees need to be released...choose the smaller side or the side with poor canopy or the side that will release another better quality oak

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Oak4.jpg

By starting with a tour of your timber with your forester you can avoid making costly errors and destroying valuable timber. Most foresters are not interested in the ability of your timber to hold big whitetails, so don't concern them with that. Simply find out if your timber needs to be logged or if a release is best, find out if you have valuable oak and black walnut trees in your stand or if it is predominately low value trees like elm, hickory and ash.

If you have few crop trees and the area is small, the forester may be willing to help you mark the trees but on larger tracts you may need to hire someone to mark trees or even do a Crop Tree Release using state or federal cost share funds. Once that is done you can you can hinge remaining trees without fear of killing crop trees that can not be replaced in this lifetime.

Typically large weed trees are killed with a double girdle but smaller trees can be hinged and even young white oaks can be felled where they are too thick and I will share more on that in future posts.... ;)