Oak Savannas

[dbltree]

What is an oak savanna?

A savanna is generally defined as a plant community where trees are a component but where their density is "...so low that it allows grasses and other herbaceous vegetation to become the actual dominants of the community.

I live literally in the middle of stand of savanna oaks that are some where between 150 and 300 years old, exact ages are difficult without killing the tree of course but most of mine are roughly 200-250 years old.

I wake up each morning to these beautiful trees :way:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/CIMG0640.jpg

and watch the sun set behind them every evening :)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/CIMG0639.jpg

An oak savanna consists of open grown oaks (not grown in a forest) and native grass and forbs, so in some ways it becomes a beautiful combination of timber and native warm season grass. This combination then provides a natural source of food and cover and is especially attractive to deer and turkeys and a host of other wildlife and birds including quail.

Farming and timbering all but destroyed the natural oak savannas that once covered much of the Midwest and lower great lakes areas with less then .01% remaining. Remaining oak savannas can be restored and new ones created however and I am excited about restoring mine!

One key element of an Oak Savanna is fire...it is crucial to both maintain the native grass and forbs but to control shade tolerant tree species. Oaks are fire tolerant as are the NWSG and forbs and without fire the whole process is difficult to complete.

The area I have chosen to restore is surrounded on three sides by crop fields and totally hidden far from roads so wildlife can be safe, comfortable and unmolested.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/CIMG0619.jpg

This thread will allow everyone to follow my restoration and share the proper and safe use of fire as a tool and even if you have no interest in savannas themselves, you will find many components usable in your own habitat projects.

In my case not only am I blessed with huge savanna oaks but also totally wild remnant populations of native grass and forbs so I will attempt to restore mine without bringing in any new seed or trees.

The big burr and white oaks will eventually be reunited with native prairie rather then hickory and elms

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/CIMG0626.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/CIMG0627.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/CIMG0622.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/CIMG0624.jpg

Keep in mind however that it is certainly possible to start with a piece of ground and add both oaks and native grass and literally build a savanna from the ground up.

Why have a savanna?

Beside the fact that they are totally cool...savannas provide a unique source of food and cover that is extremely attractive to whitetails and turkeys. Once released the big oaks drop buckets of sweet plump acorns and the forbs in the native stands are eagerly sought after by deer.

The grasses provide both fawning and general bedding cover and turkeys utilize it for poult rearing and love to roost in the big sprawling limbs of the savanna oaks.

Cost share is available in many cases as well as technical help through the USFWS and I recently spent time with Gregg Pattison who gave me advice and will be sending me the appropriate paperwork.

Here is his contact info.

Gregg Pattison
USFWS - Iowa Private Lands Office
Science and Math Room 123
1 University Place
Lamoni, Iowa 50140
Office: (641) 784-5356
Cell: (515) 979-5768
Fax: (641) 784-5054

I hope you will follow along as I restore mine and perhaps gain some knowledge that will help you improve your own habitat and possibly spur interest in building or restoring some oak savanna.

The area looked like this before I got out the chainsaw

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/CIMG0633.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/CIMG0632.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/CIMG0631.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/CIMG0630.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/CIMG0629.jpg

and after being cleared of everything but young burr oaks...it's starting to look like this

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/CIMG0634.jpg

Unlike hinge cutting which is relatively easy, these trees are being cut of at the stump, treated with Tordon and eventually cut up and removed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/CIMG0635.jpg

Be careful where you park the tractor!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/CIMG0637.jpg

Periodic timely burns to remove leaf litter, discourage invasives and encourage oak seedlings and native grasses to return...will be done with the help of a backpack leaf blower.

BR 550 Backpack Blower (http://www.stihl.us/blowers/BR550.html)

Below are links to great information about oak savannas and pictures that will make you want to get started on yours today!

Oak Savannas (http://oaksavannas.org/index.html)

Savanna Oak (http://www.savannaoak.org/)

Oak Savanna Communities (http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/es/science/publications/06_Oak_Savanna.pdf)

Planning Oak Savannas (http://www.mo.nrcs.usda.gov/technical/forestry/out/oak%20savanna.pdf)

Oak Savanna Conference (http://www.epa.gov/ecopage/upland/oak/oak95/app-e.htm)

Savanna Ecosystems (http://www.fws.gov/midwest/EcosystemConservation/savanna.html)

OAK SAVANNA RESTORATION TECHNIQUES (http://horticulture.cfans.umn.edu/vd/h5015/97papers/maloney.html)

The Iowa Burr Oak Savanna Project (http://www.iowadnr.gov/forestry/pdf/Bur_Oak_Savanna_brochure.pdf)

Whiterock Conservancy Oak Savanna Restoration (http://www.whiterockconservancy.org/whatwedo.aspx)

Restoration and Maintenance of Oak Savannas (http://fire.forestencyclopedia.net/p/p177)

SUCCESSION-BASED RESTORATION OF OAK SAVANNA (http://horticulture.cfans.umn.edu/vd/h5015/96papers/stommes.htm)

[tlambert]

Good thread Paul. I've got some recent experience with Oak Savanna's. My parent's land in WI borders a military reservation that is big on Oak Savannas. I never really minded them because they were out in the middle of their property and actually worked as they were supposed to. Two years ago they decided they were going to convert the oak timber areas on both sides of the road by my parent's into oak savanna's. They cut out all but the biggest oaks and it went from not being able to see 30yds into the timber to being able to see for as far as you'd like. Problem being, that this property is on both sides of a public black top road. Now the late summer and fall nights are lit up by spotlighters non-stop and the sounds of crickets and toads have turned into gunshots! Moral of the story, make sure you choose the spot wisely if you're going to create this sort of wildlife paradise. Guess I just needed to vent once again...

[letemgrow]

Great stuff Paul!! It is my opinion that oak savannah's can be a bounty for lots of wildlife. Oaks that are released can produce more hard mast, a high diversity of forbes and grasses that appeal to deer, turkey quail, and tons of bugs for bugging. A very good type of property to have some of.

[AZHunter]

Have nomex, will travel! Would love to help you put fire to that! I applied for Gregg's job a few years ago. I've heard he is good to work with. I'm going to bug him about a fire detail up there so maybe I'll get to help burn your land afterall! Can't wait to follow your progress!

[dbltree]

make sure you choose the spot wisely if you're going to create this sort of wildlife paradise.

Extremely important when choosing to restore or start an oak savanna!!

That's why I chose a hidden area far from roads for mine and keep other areas in "thick and nasty" habitat...which still allows for release of the big oaks by the way and I'll share more on that as well. :way:

[FarmlandQDM]

Great post Paul ... you know I have been a big advocate of bringing back fire to Iowa's timber for many years. It provides the best well balanced, year long food plot that I know of but most people overlook fire as a food plot tool.

One caution I would give though ... if you have a few scattered large oaks in your stand that you don't want to risk killing with fire, take some extra time and remove the fuel load around the base of these trees. If there are old logs, brushpiles, or excessive leaf litter piled up at the base of these trees and the conditions are right, they can catch fire and burn which sometimes will kill the tree. Old logging scars at the base of trees also provide a great foothold for fire to start. The bark structure of mature oaks make them very fire resistant but they are not fire proof. It would be pretty dishartening for someone to try a timber burn for the first time and end up killing some of the trees they were trying to manage for ... especially if those trees took 200 years to get there.

If you are curious about the age of those trees you have, buy an increment borer which will give you the exact age of any tree up to about 30 inches in diameter without harming the tree. Bigger than that and you will have to guess but those large mature oaks are typically about the same age within each stand. Usually the size difference of mature oaks has more to do with environmental factors and genetics than time.

[dbltree]

One caution I would give though ... if you have a few scattered large oaks in your stand that you don't want to risk killing with fire, take some extra time and remove the fuel load around the base of these trees. If there are old logs, brushpiles, or excessive leaf litter piled up at the base of these trees and the conditions are right, they can catch fire and burn which sometimes will kill the tree. Old logging scars at the base of trees also provide a great foothold for fire to start. The bark structure of mature oaks make them very fire resistant but they are not fire proof. It would be pretty dishartening for someone to try a timber burn for the first time and end up killing some of the trees they were trying to manage for ... especially if those trees took 200 years to get there.


Good advice Rob and I will be sure to clear junk away from the big oaks before burning...:way:

[dbltree]

Few more pics from my oak savanna restoration project...lot of firewood for my son to cut up! :eek::D

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Clearingout.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Clearcut.jpg

Here's a young open grown savanna burr oak...notice the lower limb growth

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/YoungSavannaburroak.jpg

and a few that are being released as I clear cut the junk...I'll have to cull some that are too close to each other later. These are tall and straight as they competed with other trees to reach sunlight but now will grow faster and produce acorns quicker.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Youngburroaks.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Burroaks.jpg

Remnant prairie growing along the edge

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/WildBigBluestem.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/BBremnant.jpg

I think the prairie aspect of this will prove interesting to many even if the oak savanna is not simply because of restoring it and how a wild native prairie mainfests itself.

Gregg from the USFWS agreed that frost/dormant seeding is the natural way to seed all native grass and wildflowers since it's been spread that way for eons. He prefers not to have to tear anything up or disturb the soil and use burning and if necesary broadcasting of native seeds in late winter to re-establish prairie in the oak savanna.

Looking forward to spring now and with every sunset the big oaks are crying out...set me free! :)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Sunsetinthesavannaoaks.jpg

[letemgrow]

I like seeing those remnant native grasses!! :D

IF you end up with an abundance of remnant natives, I know a guy that wants some seeds!!!!!

[tlambert]

Looking good Paul. Interesting thread for sure!

[IQDM]

This is awesome! now I have another spring project to work on!
A couple of questions for you.... You mentioned a backpack blower... what is that for?
and what if the larger oaks are somewhat close together and do a significant amount of shadding? is there any native grasses that preform better in shaded areas? or do I have to cut down some of the big oaks to make more light available?

[droptine37]

Great topic and discussion. I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with the continious crp program called declining and critical habitat crp that focuses on establishing oak savannas. I am not sure if your involved with this program or not dbltree? If anyone has had experience with this program I was wondering where you purchased your trees and what they cost? The program requires trees of at least 1/2 inch caliper or 3 feet tall. I was also wondering if any landowner that has participated in this program if the biologist gave you the choice of what percentage of canopy cover your tree planted acres would be? I know the definition of an oak savanna is anywhere from 10-50% canopy. Thanks for all the great links DblTree. I found a ton of useful info on those websites.

[dgallow]

Backpack blowers are usefull for many habitat projects, esp for creating bare earth fire breaks in leaf laden forest floor, actual fire fighting by moving errant fire and fuel back into burn unit, creating a fuel free buffer around crop trees or tall dead snags, clearing leaf clutter in late winter from wooded plots, etc.

Our 'burn plan' came in the mail from the Noble Foundation last week and there are a few important points I'd like to share here.

Point 1....before engaging in control burns attend a burn workshop/seminar for 'basic how to' and then work under a burn boss to gain 'experience'. Eventually you will be the 'fire boss' and responsible/liable for your actions! You may also gain some precious help in the process! :)

Point 2....fell all standing dead snags within 50 yards of fire breaks. They term these snags 'roman candles'....when fire reachs 20-30' up a dead snag the potential for an ember to escape your burn unit is very high.

From experience, the 'roman candles' which pose the greatest threat are hollow dead trees. Various forest critters are bad to pack these with leaves twigs etc which are very dry and highly ignitable. Once fire enters the hollow portion of the tree it can ignite the dry material and send up to a 15' whiling fire out the 'chimney' at the top. For this reason, all dead hollow trees shuld be felled in the whole unit.

Point 3....move all 'slash' from the edge of the break to 30 yards inside the burn unit. Slash is stuff like fallen tops, dozer piles, ice storm damage, rotten stumps, any cedars, ect. If the item is too large to move, use your blower to create a bare earth break around it. The last thing wants is 'high fuel' on the edge.

Point 4....large cedars should either be felled or have the lower limbs trimmed to about 5-6' high. If large cedars catch fire you will have a fire thrust that may send embers outside of your burn unit. Most 'bushy' type cedars under 5' tall will be killed by your fire...protect if you want or let them burn.

I will add this....Green briar or various other dense climbing vines can create the same effect as large cedar if they remain at canopy level. It's a very good idea to hinge the tree suporting the vines before burning. The root reserves of green briar will allow it to grow after burning with lush new growth at deer level! :way:

[IQDM]

is there any native grasses that preform better in shaded areas? or do I have to cut down some of the big oaks to make more light available?

Due to the excelent weather we are having here in Wisconsin I have started my Oak Savanna project and hope to have it done by friday when the rain/snow comes! I was wondering what the prefered grass to plant in my oak savanna would be?

[dbltree]

Due to the excelent weather we are having here in Wisconsin I have started my Oak Savanna project and hope to have it done by friday when the rain/snow comes! I was wondering what the prefered grass to plant in my oak savanna would be?

I think most natives will do fairly well but Little Bluestem is one that does very well. It's helpful to burn in late fall to remove leaf cover and then frost seed the natives but you could still burn asap and sow fluffies this spring via broadcasting or no-till drilling.

Savannas should be fairly open so the only shade will be directly under the oaks and even then most areas will recieve partial sunshine thruout the day...:way:

[FarmlandQDM]

if the larger oaks are somewhat close together and do a significant amount of shadding? is there any native grasses that preform better in shaded areas? or do I have to cut down some of the big oaks to make more light available?

Try Virginia Wild Rye, it is a common native grass that thrives in shaded river bottoms but it will grow in upland timber too.

[FarmlandQDM]

From experience, the 'roman candles' which pose the greatest threat are hollow dead trees. Various forest critters are bad to pack these with leaves twigs etc which are very dry and highly ignitable. Once fire enters the hollow portion of the tree it can ignite the dry material and send up to a 15' whiling fire out the 'chimney' at the top. For this reason, all dead hollow trees shuld be felled in the whole unit.




You brought up some excellent points dgallow. Standing hollow snags can be very dangerous, and provide plenty of excitement when you are falling them after they have caught fire, but I would hate to see all the dead hollow snags cut out of a burn unit. Many animals depend on those standing hallow snags and it would be very poor forest management to remove all of these trees within a burn unit. A better suggestion would be to spend the extra time it takes to rake the litter away from the snags to prevent them from catching fire. A two or three foot ring of exposed mineral soil should keep them from burning. Iowa timber does not burn like western forestlands and just a small amount of effort is usually enough to protect individual trees, even standing hallow snags.

[dgallow]

Great point! Protecting them by removing clutter with a blower or forestry rake would work. I'd still remove those within 50 yds of a break just like for solid dead snags. Liability vs wildlife benefit should always be weighed before burning considering todays 'sue happy' society.

The big picture to keep in mind is that only about 30% max of the property should be burned. Try to select sites with good soil. 5-10 acre blocks work well and can be rotated in burn cycle/frequency. The Noble Foundation reports a 2 to 4X increase in summer deer food in response to burning. So for 10 ac, 3000 to 6000 lb of warm season deer food could be provided as compared to 1500 lb for unmanaged canopied timber.

Burning isn't for everyone or every property. There are other 'old field management techniques' applicable to savanas with scattered oak coverage. Light strip discing in late fall or winter or August 1 mowing as an example. If you mow NWSG and wish to maintain stand density, just be sure to leave enough time for root reserves to replenish before frost.
http://efotg.nrcs.usda.gov/references/public/VT/JS647VT_OldField_FillableForm.pdf

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Portals/9/pdf/pub393.pdf

The June or so 2007 edition of QDMA magazine has an 'Old-Field Management' article which lists CP content of some forbs.....pokeweed was 30% and can remember asters being decent as well. That pdf link has been moved and appears lost in bytedom. :thrwrck:

[dbltree]

Spent some more time clearing the oak savanna... :way:

leaving all the burr oaks and then after I've cleared everything else I'll evaluate the oaks themselves and cull those that are too close to each other.

Before...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Burrwcomp.jpg

After... darn things just wouldn't tip over even after cutting them clean off! :rolleyes:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Burrminuscomp.jpg

One way to fix that! :D

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Dozing.jpg

Starting to see some "daylight" around the young oaks...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Daylight.jpg

I worked along time on this and doesn't look like I did a doggone thing from this pic! :thrwrck:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/ClearingOS.jpg

Clearing around the baby burr oaks...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Youngburr.jpg

Most still have their leaves this time of year

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Babyburr.jpg

The native grass remnants are showing up in little openings...can't wait to "light" the place up! :p

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Nativeprairie.jpg

Only the top of the big savannas are visable from the "hidey hole"...perfect for save unmolested wildlife activity in the savanna...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Savannaarea.jpg

My "assistants"... ;)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Assistants.jpg

[letemgrow]

Great work Paul!! It will be neat to see what native forbes and grasses were just waiting there for some light and heat to assist their growth.

[IQDM]

My oak savanna project is going well too... My house is on one end of our property and right behind it we have a oak knowl with a food plot in it... I decided to try a savanna here this year and see how it goes before I savanna'ize any of our other knowls.

This is what it looked like before...
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/BC36.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/BC38.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/BC39.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/BC40.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/BC41.jpg

This is what it looked like just before I seeded it
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/BC42.jpg
I seeded half CIR and half Little Bluestem... mainly because that was all I had on hand and I heard that snow was in the forcast. I didnt think I had time to order more Little blue, so I just did the rest with CIR. hopefully it will do ok in partial shade. I guess it will be sort of a test. Do you guys think I have too many oaks too close together to get enough light in? I took out quite a few hickories and other scrub trees.
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/BC45.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/BC50.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/BC52.jpg

Good thing I got the seed down! This is what it looked like the next morning!
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/BC55.jpg

[Daver]

Sorry if this has already been addressed...

but how many acres would be required to effectively go for an oak savannah? I have a couple of areas on my farm that may work, but I am not sure how big of an area that I would need to consider it.

Keep the good posts coming though, they are very interesting and informative.

[dbltree]

hopefully it will do ok in partial shade. I guess it will be sort of a test

Your oaks are a little thicker then mine so it will be interesting? I'm learning myself so only time will tell how close the oaks can be?

Great pictures...thanks for sharing in this thread!! :way:



but how many acres would be required to effectively go for an oak savannah? I have a couple of areas on my farm that may work, but I am not sure how big of an area that I would need to consider it.
.

As far as cost share is concerned I am not aware of any required acreage but I haven't recieved my paperwork yet.

I think anywhere from a 1/2 acre on up could be restored Dave...:)

[dgallow]

IQDM,

Did you treat the hickory stumps and let them rest for a year before tilling or dozing or whatever ground prep you did?

Only reason I mention this is because chaining and(or) dozing timber to create pasture is our area was very popular back in the 70's and 80's. Without killing timber with herbicide hickory sprouts from roots were thick as hair on a dog's back in a few years.

Something to keep an eye on and use fire 3 yr from now to control! :)

[IQDM]

I did not treat any stumps... I was in such a hurry to get it seed ready I guess I just plain forgot. It is right behind my house so I will be able to keep an eye on the regrowth with out having to venture through it too much. Spot spraying and burns should keep them at bay i'm hoping. otherwise I guess I could still go out and treat the stumps seeing as I just tilled around them with a harley rake.

[IQDM]

is the point of a oak savanna to let the baby bur oaks grow up through the grass? If so, how do I protect them from becoming char-grilled oaks when I burn?

[letemgrow]

I would say for a savannah, those oaks are too close together. There should be a lot more space in between them from the savannahs I have seen on MDC land.

I also wonder how the CIR will affect the little blue since it could possibly grow much taller. Interesting project!!

[IQDM]

well I seperated the two plantings... CIR in the more open back half and Little blue in the more shaded front half. I guess we can only wait and see how they do in the shade... I'll keep you guys updated

[dbltree]

is the point of a oak savanna to let the baby bur oaks grow up through the grass? If so, how do I protect them from becoming char-grilled oaks when I burn?

The point is to create the "open" savanna atmosphere the way they were orginally and that creates a little different type of habitat. A great combination of native prairie and forbs all under the oaks, raining down acorns!

That type of habitat is very different then an open "park like" habitat commonly found in many hardwood stands, not bad or good but different.

Oaks are fire tolerant but many oak seedlings wil indeed perish if the fuel load is heavy enough to cause an intensely hot burn. In the wild very few seedlings would have survived otherwise it would not be a "savanna" it would be a "forest".

You can of course have some control by reducing fuel load around some seedlings and early on you may have no fuel at all except for leaves.

Remember you cannot burn the first year after seeding NWSG because the new roots are not deep enough to survive the burn....;)

[dgallow]

I did not treat any stumps... I was in such a hurry to get it seed ready I guess I just plain forgot. It is right behind my house so I will be able to keep an eye on the regrowth with out having to venture through it too much. Spot spraying and burns should keep them at bay i'm hoping. otherwise I guess I could still go out and treat the stumps seeing as I just tilled around them with a harley rake.

Really curious how your project turns out. We have timber to thin and will be faced with the same situation as you. Please post pics of your progress over time.

The cut stumps seal over pretty quick after cutting making it harder for the herbicide to work with a delay period. Best if one guy cuts and another treats, or you cut a half dozen then stop and treat. If I'm cuttin a large spot I'll leave the stumps about 18-24" high initially. Then when the other work is done, I'll come back as a last step and cut the stumps lower then treat.

Anyway, for your situation now, if you could just cut a thin slice off the stumps to expose fresh wood and then treat with a mix of 1 quart of Remedy Ultra + 3 quart of diesel, that should give you good control. Treat the cambium layer and outer bark down to the soil all the way around....'don't miss a spot'. You can always dig a few inches of dirt from around the stump with your boot before spraying to expose more bark and get better coverage. I like to leave a 2-4" stump when treating....seems to work best that way.

Resprouts from exposed roots or other smooth bark stage saplings can also be controlled with the above coctail by treating from about 12" high down to soil level...again 'don't miss a spot'. You can do this anytime of year, except for during dought, snow cover, or water inundation.

There is also an RTU formulation of Remedy which requires no mixing, but it's much more expensive than the Ultra mix in the long run. 1 gal of RTU is $45 here while Ultra is $70/gallon but makes 4 gal of mix.

Get a decent 2 gal pump-up sprayer with chemical resistant o-rings and gaskets (ie viton), like the Do-It Best or Solo models. Cheap sprayers don't last too long. We have the 'honey bee' (yellow and black) looking Do-It Best sprayer and really like it.....wide mouth construction for 'easy fill no spill'....protected threads so junk accumulating on top of tank doesn't get inside and clog the tip....4 yr warranty.....only takes 1-3 pumps for sufficient pressure when treating stumps/sprouts.

Foliar applications of Remedy don't work very well on trees, because most will shed leaves before sufficient hebicide is absorbed for effective control. The sprayed tree will be 'suppressed', but that only means one thing....more sprouts from the roots or root collar. :mad:

For foliar application on trees, I've had the best luck with 3% gly application late summer. But that nukes any vegetation under the drip line too! :thrwrck: Takes about 2 yr for the tree to start rotting.

That is a few easy options for you. Whatever you treat, just let it sit for a year before cutting or disturbing. Think you'll be surprised how fast the stumps rot after Rem/diesel treatment. :D

[IQDM]

Thanks for the Info!

[dbltree]

I toured a freinds place in north central Iowa the other day andl ooked over his savanna oaks.

This area could be restored for certain and native grasses returned but because he needs thick bedding areas I felt he would be better off encouraging brushy habitat by hinging cull trees and inter-planting shrubs and cedars.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Oak1.jpg (http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/?action=view&current=Oak1.jpg)

What ever he decides he has some beautiful old savanna oaks on his property! :way:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Oak2.jpg (http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/?action=view&current=Oak2.jpg)

One thing that has been cautioned is to remove litter and debris from around the base of the old oaks before burning because the big trees can be killed if enough fuel load is present around the base.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Oak3.jpg (http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/?action=view&current=Oak3.jpg)

Some years ago a spark from a vehicle on the interstate started a fire and it burned out of controll and did indeed kill two of the giant oaks...so use caution to clear "stuff" away before burning...especially the first time... ;)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Oak4.jpg (http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/?action=view&current=Oak4.jpg)

[dbltree]

I talked to Gregg from the USFWS and he said to go ahead and get my savanna burned because the sooner the leaves are removed, the sooner forbs and native grasses can come up.

If it ever quits raining...I'm ready! ;)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Equipment/BR600LeafBlowers.jpg

These babies will peel back the pavement! :eek: :D

Remember that timber burns (oak savanna or not) can increase natural forbs and browse where ever you can safely burn. The leaf blowers make it easy because there is nothing under those leaves but dirt...:)

[dbltree]

My son and I attempted a burn in our oak savanna but there is barely enough to keep a fire going :confused:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Fire4.jpg

Then our torch sprung a leak and turned into a sort of flaming fireball that I couldn't convince my son to hang onto...even though I keep yelling from far far away that the odds of it exploding were minimal... :eek: :D

We did get to test out the leaf blower and found if we followed a deer trail it was easy to clear leaves and dead thatch and this pic clearly shows the path and the burn to the left.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Fire2.jpg

The prairie remnants did burn well but with no fuel under the red cedars it promptly went out at that point.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Fire6.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Fire3.jpg

A friend has a wand torch we can borrow that will really throw some flame so we'll give it another try in the cleared area of the savanna and we'll keep tabs on the burned prairie and see how that responds this summer.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oak%20Savanna/Fire5.jpg

The Savanna restoration contract calls for burning at least 3 times in 10 years but I hope to burn yearly as we continue to clear out and restore the savanna.... :way:

[tlambert]

"Then our torch sprung a leak and turned into a sort of flaming fireball that I couldn't convince my son to hang onto...even though I keep yelling from far far away that the odds of it exploding were minimal"

My dad seems to try and pull that kind of stuff on me all the time too!!

[Daver]

"Then our torch sprung a leak and turned into a sort of flaming fireball that I couldn't convince my son to hang onto...even though I keep yelling from far far away that the odds of it exploding were minimal"

My dad seems to try and pull that kind of stuff on me all the time too!!

Paul - I have the same sorts of problems with my boys...what's wrong with kids these days?!?!? ;):D I lose control of a couple of grass fires in their lives and now they want no part of helping me control the next one, sheesh! :rolleyes:

Where's the sense of adventure?

[Skully]

Great pics Paul. Just a note: things are REALLY dry in SE Iowa right now. Rain on the way though. We responded to a fire call last night where a farmer just wanted to burn a little strip of dead grass and he ended up loosing a bunch of big round bales! Ouch! :D

[dbltree]

Great pics Paul. Just a note: things are REALLY dry in SE Iowa right now. Rain on the way though. We responded to a fire call last night where a farmer just wanted to burn a little strip of dead grass and he ended up loosing a bunch of big round bales! Ouch! :D

Just trying to give you guys some practice Troy! :D

Seriously, weather and conditions should always be given first condsideration before "lighting" things up :eek:

I till burn lanes around the area and use the leaf blower in the timber but sometimes a little wind can send a single spark beyond that and things can get hairy in a flash....don't ask me how I know...:o:grin:

Any comments on favorite torches?

Propane Torch Kit — 500,000 BTU (http://www2.northerntool.com/snow-ice-removal/torch-kits/item-171717.htm)

http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/171717_lg.jpg

Weed Dragon Propane Torch Kit 100,000 BTU (http://www.kotulas.com/wcsstore/KOTStore/images/product/173850_lg.jpg)

http://www.kotulas.com/wcsstore/KOTStore/images/product/173850_lg.jpg

[dgallow]

Mini weed dragon with small propane bottles. Atwoods sells a knock-off of this which has a built-in ignitor. We have the knock-off.

http://www.amazon.com/Red-Dragon-VT-1-32-Propane/dp/B002LH46M8

Like I mentioned on the other forum....parent fire from a drip torch will last longer initially which helps ignition in marginal conditions like timber burns. The lil torch we have is more than sifficient for grass fires.

Old carpet which is wet also makes for a good fire stopper. Just take a 2' x 10' strip and toss it in the pond to soak. Drag that along a fire line to smother if needed. Sure beats slinging we burlap! :thrwrck:

[dbltree]

Mini weed dragon with small propane bottles. Atwoods sells a knock-off of this which has a built-in ignitor. We have the knock-off.

http://www.amazon.com/Red-Dragon-VT-1-32-Propane/dp/B002LH46M8

Like I mentioned on the other forum....parent fire from a drip torch will last longer initially which helps ignition in marginal conditions like timber burns. The lil torch we have is more than sifficient for grass fires.

Old carpet which is wet also makes for a good fire stopper. Just take a 2' x 10' strip and toss it in the pond to soak. Drag that along a fire line to smother if needed. Sure beats slinging we burlap! :thrwrck:

Perfect! Thanks!

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41zXWnb6vWL._SS400_.jpg

[dbltree]

I walked my oak savanna with my IDNR Forester on Monday and now that the big oaks have leafed out I was suprised to find that in addition to white oaks I have many Swamp White Oaks! :)

Previously I mistook many of them for Burr oaks but the Swamps are known for sweeter low tannin acorns making them of course more desirable to whitetails. Burr Oaks are one of the most commonly found oaks in the southern Iowa savannas so I guess i had that in the back of my mind...

Burr Oak Bark

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Tree%20ID/BurOakBark.jpg

Burr Oak Leaf

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Tree%20ID/BurOakLeaf.jpg

Swamp White Oak Bark

http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/q/wqubi--brlarge12356.jpg

SWO Leaf

http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/q/wqubi--lf12366.jpg

I should have known by the scaley bark on the younger trees

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Tree%20ID/WhiteSwampOakBark1.jpg

I talked to him also about using glyphosate to control invasives in some areas until I can get the area to burn because much of it is in a low area where rich moist soils will soon explode with brush!

The areas I did burn are remarkably clean except for some grasses coming up...next time I'll remember to take my camera....:rolleyes: :p

[dbltree]

Did I mention you can build an oak savanna from scratch??

NWSG, oak seedlings and Oust XP and your in business! :way:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0026.jpg

In these cases the Oust is releasing the Big Bluestem as well as controlling weeds and fescue around the oak seedlings...perfect!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0027.jpg

In many areas of the midwest it's amazing how much native grass is laying there waiting for a chance to grow...if you just give it a chance...;)

[letemgrow]

In many areas of the midwest it's amazing how much native grass is laying there waiting for a chance to grow...if you just give it a chance...;)


Great pics!! Shows what some good management can accomplish. :way:

Pretty sure I had some gama grass pop up in an area I sprayed the fescue, then again I could have planted it and forgot about it. :thrwrck: :)

There may be someone that wants some of your native big blue, indian, and switch that I know of. :drink2:

[IQDM]

When spraying oust around your trees and having the natives pop up around your tree plantings above, are you concerned at all about the natives blocking light to the trees or choking them out at all? What is the difference if natives are growing next to the trees or cool seasons?

[IQDM]

An interesting update on my oak savanna projects... In this picture its hard to see, but I planted half of this oak savanna in switch grass (right side) and the other half I planted in little bluestem (further back and left)... In this test, the switchgrass seemed to out perform the little bluestem!... I think this next spring I will just seed the whole savanna with big bluestem and switch... I really dont care which grass takes over, as long as its tall and stays up mostly all year. It will be a battle royal for whatever light that makes it past the oaks... I know that the oaks are still fairly tight and it would be ideal to have more space between them, but I already took out about 6 big oaks and every single non oak in that area... I dont think I can bring myself to cut another oak, so if the native grasses dont work, what do you think should be plan B?

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/IMG00340.jpg

[letemgrow]

... I dont think I can bring myself to cut another oak, so if the native grasses dont work, what do you think should be plan B?


I would burn it a few times, see what happens and go from there. You may be surprised at what is already in the seed bank. Maybe a few shade tolerant shrubs in select areas where fire won't get them? I am fond of downy serviceberry as a timber edge shrub and it is a magnet for wildlife.

[letemgrow]

When spraying oust around your trees and having the natives pop up around your tree plantings above, are you concerned at all about the natives blocking light to the trees or choking them out at all? What is the difference if natives are growing next to the trees or cool seasons?

What I see are just enough native grasses to get started back up that are not going to out-compete the oak seedlings. Big blue stays a clump grass anyways so it will not mat around the seedling. The oak seedlings will be above the grasses in the next could years anyways so its the perfect scenario IMO.

[IQDM]

so really, the vertical height of the grasses are not the concern. Its the falling down of the weaker cool season grasses on top of the seedling, smothering it, is the biggest concern...? And agreed, once the tree grows above the grasses, what better to have surrounding your trees than native grasses!

[letemgrow]

so really, the vertical height of the grasses are not the concern. Its the falling down of the weaker cool season grasses on top of the seedling, smothering it, is the biggest concern...? And agreed, once the tree grows above the grasses, what better to have surrounding your trees than native grasses!


The cool season grasses form a sod mat where its hard for a seedling to compete for water and nutrients. The pics that Paul has shows enough open ground around the seedlings to get them established before the big blue seeds out and forms more stands around it so IMO that is not a bad set up. The grasses can also help shield the seedling from rutting bucks and browsing.

[dbltree]

The cool season grasses form a sod mat where its hard for a seedling to compete for water and nutrients. The pics that Paul has shows enough open ground around the seedlings to get them established before the big blue seeds out and forms more stands around it so IMO that is not a bad set up. The grasses can also help shield the seedling from rutting bucks and browsing.

Phil hit the nail on the head and covered that question well...:way:

[Liv4Rut]

Man you guys are crazy. My ole man's place is nothing but Oak Savannas and there isnt' a dang deer or turkey in there at all. What I would give to have some real timber like you just destroyed!!! I guess if you got enough of it what the heck to ruin some of it. The huge oaks are pretty awesome at our farm as far as looking at them but they suck for deer hunting.

[letemgrow]

Man you guys are crazy. My ole man's place is nothing but Oak Savannas and there isnt' a dang deer or turkey in there at all. What I would give to have some real timber like you just destroyed!!! I guess if you got enough of it what the heck to ruin some of it. The huge oaks are pretty awesome at our farm as far as looking at them but they suck for deer hunting.

What type of grass/forbes is underneath those oaks? It would be mind boggling if it was NWSG underneath big oaks and there was no deer use at all.

[letemgrow]

Phil hit the nail on the head and covered that question well...:way:


If the big blue gets too thick, make sure and send as many seeds my way as you can. :D

[Liv4Rut]

I am not a grass guy to answer the question. Its all about knee to thigh high. We kind of have a mixture. Some of the big oaks are on grassy hill sides. Some are out in the middle of lush alfalfa, some are around standing bean plots. The deer go through it some but mainly passing through. We didn't set this up this way though. It used to be a huge timber that somebody dozed and left all the giants oaks. This was many years ago though. The place is starting to get Shrubby with 10-12 ft shrubs / trees and the deer are finally starting to go through it regularly now that it is thickening up nicely.

[IQDM]

I would take Mature Oaks with tall thick Switch grass and Big bluestem around them any day!

[letemgrow]

I am not a grass guy to answer the question. Its all about knee to thigh high. We kind of have a mixture. Some of the big oaks are on grassy hill sides. Some are out in the middle of lush alfalfa, some are around standing bean plots. The deer go through it some but mainly passing through. We didn't set this up this way though. It used to be a huge timber that somebody dozed and left all the giants oaks. This was many years ago though. The place is starting to get Shrubby with 10-12 ft shrubs / trees and the deer are finally starting to go through it regularly now that it is thickening up nicely.

NWSG can be 6-8 foot high so it sounds like you have some cool season grasses there which are no good for deer for the most part. The only cool season I would actually plant on the farm is timothy. :way:

[dbltree]

My ole man's place is nothing but Oak Savannas and there isnt' a dang deer or turkey in there at all.

A true Oak Savanna consist of tall native prairie grass that grows 6-8' tall and the combination of tall grass and oaks is pretty hard to beat.

Short cool season grass is a waste land and that's why there are no wildlife in your Dad's oaks....the difference in habitat is night and day and in no way comparable.

I would also add that my own savanna is an effort to restore some historical diversity and only comprises less then 2% of my farm....;)

[letemgrow]

I would also add that my own savanna is an effort to restore some historical diversity and only comprises less then 2% of my farm....;)

That will be the most bio-diverse part of your farm too so it is icing on the cake for lots of wildlife. :way:

[IQDM]

Here are some pictures of my new oak savannah project. This is a small oak planting that I have seeded into switchgrass and will be hitting with gly and atrazine very soon. I can just picture a brute bedded under one of those oaks and one day lapping up the acorns that they produce. :rolleyes:
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00091.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00090.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00089.jpg

[Scott]

Wont the switch choke out the new oak's? Seems like they will be competing for the same ground.

[IQDM]

The smallest of these trees are in the 4' range with the tallest at about 10'. Switchgrass generally is around 6' so it won't be long before these oaks are towering over the switch. Not to mention, it will be 2 years before that switchgrass is at full height and thickness.
Not too sure if it would be a good idea to establish seedling oaks and natives at the same time tho.

[IQDM]

Here are some pictures of my new oak savannah project. This is a small oak planting that I have seeded into switchgrass and will be hitting with gly and atrazine very soon. I can just picture a brute bedded under one of those oaks and one day lapping up the acorns that they produce. :rolleyes:
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00091.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00090.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00089.jpg
The area in the pictures above is a small area that was planted into oaks 6 years ago or so... The oaks are doing fine, but there is never any deer using this area... Why? The answer is simple! There is no cover!
How do we fix this quickly and permanantly? Switchgrass...
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/oaksavannaparkinglot.jpg
I will not be able to burn this oak savanna for many years because the trees are still very young. But with mowing and herbicides, I will be able to grow oaks and hold deer with thick cover at the same time!

Here is another Oak savanna... I converted this woods from a standard "not very thick / not very productive" woods
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/BC36.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/BC38.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/BC39.jpg
I thinned the woods out by cutting mostly non oak species and then burned, prepped the ground and frost seeded.
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/IMG00346.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/BC42.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/BC45.jpg
Today this is what the woods looks like
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00266.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00265.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00264.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00263.jpg
I planted switchgrass in the more open part of the woods, and Little bluestem in the part of the woods that recieved less sunlight.
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00262.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00261.jpg
The little bluestem did not come in as well as the switch grass, but that is due to the thicker canopy cover of oak trees above. The little bluestem is doing just fine as compared to nothing which was what was there before.
It sure is cool to stand back and look at a project once it has come full circle! Makes you feel pretty good :way:
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00257.jpg

[IQDM]

2 years ago I started yet another Oak savanna project...
This area was an old cow pasture that had been taken over by cool season grasses. When we took over the property I immediatly planted a large food plot here. However, as I grew as a manager and read fourm posts from you all, I quickly realized that cover is what I really needed in this spot!
This is what it looked like when I planted it in the spring of 2010.
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/plantingswtichgrass12.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/plantingswtichgrass20.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/plantingswtichgrass22.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/plantingswtichgrass11.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/plantingswtichgrass10.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/plantingswtichgrass3.jpg

I sprayed round up and atrazine for weed control the first year. There were some weeds that came up but nothing too bad.
Spring of 2011...
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/2011-05-29161322.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/2011-05-29161334.jpg

This spring I sprayed Oust xp at a very heavy rate 2oz per acre and I would say that it was too much! IMO I should have only gone with 1oz...
Compared to other switchgrass plantings where I only sprayed RU and atrazine, this stand seemed to be held back by the oust and had very slow growth in comparison to other stands.
In the end it didnt matter because it looks great now! and totally weed free to boot!
Just keep in mind that oust is very strong and I wouldnt be using it on SG unless the stand is well established (more than 2 years old) :way:
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00242-1.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00255-1.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00244-1.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00247-1.jpg

[IQDM]

In 2007 when we purchased our property, we made a list of things that we felt we were missing as far as key habitat elements.
The top 2 on the list were evergreen trees for thermal cover and Native Warm Season Grasses for fawing and bedding cover.
There were few evergreens and not one NWSG plant.
With only 130 acres to work with, and most of the property being low swampland, we had to be creative in coming up with areas to establish these elements.
We chose an area that had recently been logged and as well as a pond established. The bright red outlines this area...
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00299.jpg
It is not advised to mix NWSG with evergreen plantings because normally fire is used as a tool to maintain the grasses. Burning is certainly not an option if spruce or pines are mixed in! However, there are still ways to maintain the grasses without burning, such as mowing and herbicides. having only 130 acres, we decided to try it and see if we can make it work!
This is what the area looked like when we started (after the pond was dug)
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/cats09534.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/cats09531.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/cats09530.jpg
In the fall right before the first snow, we transplanted a bunch of white spruce from a near by farm.
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/IMG00256-1.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/IMG00254-1.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/IMG00253-1.jpg

Then the next spring we frost seeded NWSG in the entire area. We chose to go with Little Bluestem and Switchgrass due to their ability to hold up better in the harsh Wisconsin winters!
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00292.jpg
Now 2 growing seasons later, this is what it looks like... The Little bluestem does not grow as tall, so we used that inbetween the trees, and used switch grass up on the hill where there were no trees planted.
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/Pinesandgrass8.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/Pinesandgrass7.jpg
Little Bluestem is IMO the prettiest grass out there! I am more than pleased with how it came in and am very excited to see how these two habitat elements (NWSG/Spruce) work together to help make a home for the deer using my property!
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00289.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/Pinesandgrass5.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/Pinesandgrass3.jpg

[dbltree]

All I can say is WOW! Incredible habitat and amazing changes in your cover thanks to all your hard work!! Thanks so much for the great pictures and sharing what you have learned! :way:

[IQDM]

DT have you noticed any ill effects while using higher rates of oust xp on sg?

[letemgrow]

All I can say is WOW!


Same here!! Looks fantastic and I agree on the little bluestem, the red color it gets in the fall is jaw dropping. :way:

Any plans for a few native wildflower patches IQDM...if so...what you are going to plant?

[dbltree]

DT have you noticed any ill effects while using higher rates of oust xp on sg?

It depends on the soil....heavier clay soils can handle higher rates then light soils. So far I have not had negative results using 2 ounces of Oust XP in early April on established switchgrass.

I use one ounce of Oust the fall before a new switch seeding so higher rates would be safer applied in August for instance rather then October.

I appreciate you sharing your own results so others may want to use some caution as well, although it appears that in the end the switchgrass was an outstanding success! :way:

[IQDM]

Same here!! Looks fantastic and I agree on the little bluestem, the red color it gets in the fall is jaw dropping. :way:

Any plans for a few native wildflower patches IQDM...if so...what you are going to plant?
I haven't really drawn any plans up yet... what would you recommend? How big of an area would be a minimum size? I'm thinking I could do a few odd corners here and there? or would it have to be bigger? (we might have to move this convo to the NWSG thread :way:)