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dbltree
06-02-2010, 07:28 PM
Oaks and chestnuts can be easily started from seed with the right knowledge about collecting, storing and planting them and we'll try to cover those things in detail in this thread along will all pictures and information about various oak species and hybrids.

Sources for acorns include parks, universities and friends with heavy yielding trees and willing to share but hybrid oak acorns are less readily available so here a few sources for hybrids:

Oikos tree crops -Acorn source (http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/prodtype.asp?PT_ID=142&strPageHistory=cat)

Sheffields -Acorns (http://www.sheffields.com/seed_common_name/gambel%20bur%20oak)

Advantage Forestry (http://www.advantageforestry.net/hunteroaks.htm)

Concordia Oak acorn source (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31038)

Why hybrids?

Oikos Tree Crops - Hybrid Oaks (http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/prodtype.asp?PT_ID=7&strPageHistory=cat)

Useful for Timber, Acorn Production and Ornamental Value. The tendency of oaks to cross-pollinate with one another creates hybrids. Within North American oaks alone, it’s estimated there are at least 200 hybrids found wild. Hybrid oaks are usually fertile and produce progeny that can show wide variation and many similarities of both parents. For the last 30 years, Oikos Tree Crops has maintained a hybrid oak planting for the purpose of producing the most vigorous oak hybrid seedlings. What started as a simple horticultural curiosity has resulted in some distinct refinements in using hybrid offspring. The results have been dramatic.

Here are a few of the salient points of the hybrid oak crowd:
Faster growth: The right hybrid in the right soil can exhibit two to three times the growth rate of pure species.

Precocity: Acorns will begin bearing in 4-8 years from seedling compared to 15-30 years in pure species.

Ecological adaptability: Adaptable to different soil types and climates exhibiting greater vigor even if the conditions are not optimum.

Heavy Acorn Production: Some selections produce a spur type fruiting or dense branching which in turn greatly increases the yields per individual tree. All of these provide a wide variation of different types useful for a wide variety of combinations and uses. What more could you ask for in an oak? Plant an Acorn - Grow an Oak Tree (http://forestry.about.com/od/treeplanting/p/oak_acorn.htm)


The best time to collect acorns, either off the tree or from the ground, is when they begin falling - just that simple. Prime picking is late September through the first week in November, depending on oak tree species and location within the United States. The acorn is perfect when plump and the cap removes easily

Preparing Acorns for Planting:
The two most critical components for caring for acorns that are to be planted are: not allowing the acorns to dry out for an extended period and not allowing the acorns to heat up. Acorns will lose their ability to germinate very quickly if allowed to dry out.

Keep acorns in the shade as you collect them, and put them in your refrigerator as soon as possible if not planting immediately. Don't freeze acorns.

Immediate planting should be limited to the white oak species group including white, bur, chestnut and swamp oak. Red oak species group acorns must be planted in the second season - the following spring.

Storing Acorns for Planting:

Put acorns in a polyethylene plastic bag - a wall thickness of four to ten mils - with damp peat mix or sawdust. These bags are ideal for storing acorns since they are permeable to carbon dioxide and oxygen but impermeable to moisture.

Close the bag loosely and store in the refrigerator at 40 degrees (white oaks can still sprout at between 36 and 39 degrees). Check acorns throughout the winter and keep just barely damp.

Red oak acorns need about 1000 hours of cold or about 42 days. Planting these acorns in late April of the following season gives you the best success but can be planted later.


Planting White Oak Group Acorns:

White oak acorns mature in one season - the season of collection. White oak acorns do not exhibit seed dormancy and will start to germinate very soon after maturing and falling to the ground. You can plant these acorns immediately or refrigerate for later planting.

Planting Red Oak Group Acorns:

Red oak acorns mature in two seasons. The red oak group has to have some seed dormancy and generally does not germinate until the following spring and with some stratification (a cooling period). If stored properly and kept damp, these red oak acorns can be held in cold storage for planting in late April through early summer.

Germinating and Potting Acorns:

After determining the proper time to plant, you should select the best looking acorns (plump and rot-free) and place those in loose potting soil in one-gallon pots or deeper containers. The tap root will grow quickly to the bottom of containers and root width is not as important.

Containers should have holes in the bottom to allow for drainage. Place acorns on their sides at a depth of one half to one times the width of the acorn. Keep the soil moist but aerated. Keep the "pots" from freezing.

Transplanting Acorns:

Don't allow an oak seedling’s tap root to grow out of the container bottom and into the soil below. This will break the tap root. If possible, seedlings should be transplanted as soon as the first leaves open and become firm but before extensive root development occurs. ***(exception when using RootMaker cells)***

The planting hole should he twice as wide and deep as the pot and root ball. Carefully remove the root ball. Gently set the root ball in the hole with the root crown at the level of the soil surface. Fill the hole with soil, firmly tamp and soak Direct seeding acorns

Acorns can be fall planted individually or broadcast at 1500 acorns per acre and disked in.

Direct Seeding of Hardwoods in Wisconsin (http://dnr.wi.gov/forestry/Publications/articles/HardwoodDirectSeeding-2004.pdf)

The biggest source of acorn predation of course is squirrels and mice who dig up newly planted acorns so for small quanities one needs to protect them in some manner.

Tree tubes, fenceing or screen will all work to protect the acorns and later the tiny seedlings.

Planting Oaks- Restoration (http://www.hastingsreserve.org/OakStory/Planting.html)

http://www.hastingsreserve.org/OakStory/Oak%20Pics/oakbaskets.jpg

One ft tall tubes are inexpensive and a great way to protect acorns

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/Nosprout.jpg

The tubes continue to protect and enhance early seedling growth

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/Oakfromacorn.jpg

Acorn storage is extremely important especially when storing white oak acorns. Keeping them slightly moist while not allowing them to get moldy is imperative.

Acorn Storage (http://fire.forestencyclopedia.net/p/p1366/p1601/p2145/p2149/p2165/p2166/p2170)

Most seed managers do not like to store acorns over long periods, because their size requires large refrigerated storage space and because viability declines each year. Acorns of most red oaks can be stored for 3 years without critical losses in viability (Bonner 1973), while most white oaks can be stored only 6 months without complete loss of viability.

One solution to the problem is to plant acorns in the fall immediately after collection and avoid storage. For some nurseries and conditions, this option is a good one for next years crop. Short-term storage under good conditions between collection and sowing is essential to maintain good acorn quality, however, and many managers would like to store extra acorns for use 1 or 2 years later. Since good storage practices for both purposes require the same facilities and procedures, the recommendations are the same. (Bonner, 1993)

Acorns of red oak species should be stored with their moisture contents at 30 percent or higher in temperatures near, but above, freezing (34?F to 40?F). Air-tight storage is lethal, so containers must allow some gas exchange with the atmosphere while maintaining high acorn moisture levels (Bonner 1973). Polyethylene bags with a wall thickness of 4 to 10 mils are good. For large quantities of acorns, storage can be in drums, cans, or boxes with polyethylene bag liners. Container tops and liners should not be completely closed; this will allow sufficient gas exchange.

If water collects in the bottoms of storage containers, it should be drained from acorns intended for storage longer than over winter. (Bonner, 1993) (Table:Germination and Moisture Contents of Cherrybark Oak Acorns)
With proper care, many southern red oaks should maintain good viability for at least 3 years. We have had good success in our laboratory with water, cherrybark, and Nuttall oaks (Q. nuttallii Palmer), but less success with Shumard and willow (Q. phellos L.) oaks. Similar methods were used by Farmer (1975) for successful storage of northern red and scarlet (Q. coccinea Muenchh.) oaks, and by Suszka and Tylkowski (1982) for northern red oak in Poland. (Bonner, 1993) (Table: Viability and Retention of Various Southern White Oak Acorns)

With few exceptions, white oak acorns cannot be stored longer than over winter (4 to 6 months) without complete loss of viability. For over-winter storage, the same methods outlined for red oak storage should generally be used.

Thinner polyethylene (1.75 mil) or cloth bags may be advantageous for white oaks because of a need for greater aeration (Rink and Williams 1984). Schroeder and Walker (1987) reported excellent results in storage of bur oak (Q. macrocarpa Michx.) for 6 months at 34?F and 44 percent acorn moisture in sealed plastic bags. No information was given on the thickness of the bags. Any reduction in acorn moisture significantly decreased germination capacity and rate. Laboratory testshave provided some rare successes with storing white oaks species. (Bonner, 1993).
Moisture content remains a crucial factor throughout storage.

With acorn moisture levels above 30 percent and temperatures above freezing, respiration proceeds at a rapid rate. This process gradually decreases acorn dry weight, causing small increases in the percentage of moisture over time (Table:Germination and Moisture Contents of Cherrybark Oak Acorns). Schroeder and Walker (1987) found no increase in bur oak moisture content over 6 months of storage, but Gosling (1989) reported that English oak acorn moisture contents increased as much as 5 percent over 6 months in storage.

The loss in dry weight is why a static state of equilibrium between internal acorn moisture and the storage atmosphere, such as we find in orthodox species, is never reached for acorns. Approximate equilibrium moisture contents have been determined for a few species, but these probably change over long storage periods. Note that white oak has much higher equilibrium levels than the two red oak species. This is because starch, the major storage food in white oak, is more hygroscopic than lipid, the major storage food in red oaks. (Bonner, 1993) More links on collecting, storing and growing acorns

Growing Your Own Oak Seedlings (http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p2421.pdf)

Planting Oaks (http://www.elkhornslough.org/andrewway/how_to_plant.htm)

Collect and plant acorns (http://treenotes.blogspot.com/2007/09/how-to-collect-and-plant-acorns.html)

Growing Oak Trees From Seed (http://basineducation.uwex.edu/gpsp/tsfsc-2006-directseeding-oakfactsheet.pdf)

The following is a link to a list of YouTube videos on collecting and storing acorns.

How to Grow Oak Trees From Acorns (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=95FAF301FB36AABA&search_query=How+to+Grow+Oak+Trees+From+Acorns)


Remember to do a float test, if they float discard them, don't let them lay on in the hot baking sun and completely dry out, sort out ones that are cracked, have holes in them etc.

Look for trees that are prolific and yield consistantly year after year or that deer seek out among others. Watch for young trees that have produced early and bring new genetics in to your area by swapping with friends.

If you wish to start them in pots to transplant later this company has some great products to encourage root growth.

RootMaker System (http://www.rootmaker.com/)

Big Rock Trees - RootMaker Source (http://www.bigrocktrees.com/)

This system can help your acorns go from this

http://www.rootmaker.com/imagesCLICK/RootMakerSystem1.jpg

to this with roots branching evenly in all directions

http://www.rootmaker.com/imagesCLICK/RootMakerSystem2.jpg

18 cell RootMaker trays are ideal for starting and growing oaks and chestnuts for 12-16 weeks

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/CIMG0688.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/CIMG0687.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/CIMG0681.jpg

You can mix your own soiless mix of perlite, vermiculite and peat or simply purchase a good quality potting mix.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/CIMG0683.jpg

Many acorns and chestnuts will begin to sprout and may develop extensive root systems even in refrigerated storage.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/CIMG0691.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/CIMG0693.jpg
Chestnut roots after winter storage

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/CIMG0695.jpg
Early to mid march is a great time to start acorns and chestnuts if you have a warm sunny place to do so.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/Acornplantings.jpg
and they will begin to sprout within days although there will be stragglers that sprout weeks later.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/CIMG0765.jpg

3-18

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/CIMG0764.jpg

3-26

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/3-26-10OakSeedlings.jpg

4-2

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/CIMG0899.jpg

4-16

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/Oakseedlings4-16.jpg

The 4-Inch Rule:Or How to Maximize Root Branching in Containers
Carl Whitcomb, Ph D
Lacebark Inc. 2104 North Cottonwood Road, Stillwater, OK 74075

Anyone that has ever pruned shrubs or trees to make a hedge has experienced the ‘4-inch rule’. It has long been known that when a twig or branch is cut, branching occurs, but did you notice where? Typically from the point of the pruning cut and extending back about 4 inches. Allow the numerous branches produced as a result of the first pruning to grow out 4 to 6 inches then prune again and more branching occurs.

Branching occurs as a result of removal of the terminal bud, and the hormone that suppresses branching (also known as apical dominance). What has been known only in recent years is the fact that the 4-inch rule applies to roots as well. This is especially dramatic with young roots that are the below ground counterparts to the twigs pruned to create a hedge. As roots grow older they become less responsive to pruning just as occurs with larger limbs and branches.

Root tips exert an apical dominance just like twigs. With roots, the white tip is most responsive and when air-root-pruning occurs at the proper location, secondary roots typically begin to form quickly and within 3 to 5 days the 4-inch rule is obvious. By contrast, in nature the tip of a taproot extends downward until conditions become unfavorable (rock, hard subsoil, lack of oxygen, water table, etc.).

Only when the tip of the taproot stops growing or dies does secondary branching occur, but by then the tissues just beneath the soil have matured and few branch roots are produced on most species. As a result, only a fraction of the secondary roots form in nature compared to when the tip of the young taproot is air-pruned in a container at a point about four inches below the seed (Figure 1). Horizontal roots respond to the 4-inch rule as well. However, the 4-inch rule does not apply to roots that extend out to the sidewall of smooth conventional containers and circle. The exception is when sun hits the sidewall and kills the roots, which results in heat-pruning. Then the 4-inch rule does apply from the point of root death back around the container.

http://www.rootmaker.com/imagesCLICK/RootMakerSystem1.jpg

Figure 1. Young tissues are much more responsive to air-root-pruning compared to older tissues. These two oak seeds are the same age since germination. The one on the left continues downward extension of the taproot. The one on the right was air-root-pruned 4 inches below the seed, has already produced many secondary branch roots, plus the top has begun to develop.

Figure 2. Circling roots and root-bound conditions can prevent proper anchoring and establishment in a larger container. It can also occur when the distance from the side of the smaller container to the side of the larger container exceeds about four inches.

It is important to note that the 4” rule applies primarily to plants grown in containers. Why? Because root tips can extend aimlessly through the porous container growth medium with little resistance and as a result, little natural branching occurs. By contrast, root tips growing through most field soils experience much more resistance to root extension and as a result, root branching is much greater (the exception would be extremely sandy soils).

Therefore, to develop the most fibrous root system depth of the propagation container should be about 4 inches deep and no more than 8 inches wide. To make a propagation container 8 inches wide consumes far too much space, therefore a container 4 inches deep and 2 “to 4” wide is the practical optimum. When transplanting from the RootMaker® propagation container, respect the 4-inch rule in order to maximize root branching. This means that RootMaker® liners should not be planted into containers larger than approximately 10 to 12 “diameter (2.5 or 4”root ball + 4” on either side).

Have you ever noticed that when a plant is shifted from a small container to an overly large container that the root system is slow to develop to the point where the root ball is firm and you can no longer see the root system ‘flex’ when the wind blows? This can result from circling roots and root-bound conditions in conventional containers (Figure 2). It can also result because up-sizing exceeded the 4-inch rule, and substantial ‘extra’ time in production is required. The plant may have grown to market size, yet a sale was missed was because of the ‘flex’ in the root system.

It is important to note that the 4” rule applies primarily to plants grown in containers. Why? Because root tips can extend aimlessly through the porous container growth medium with little resistance and as a result, little natural branching occurs. By contrast, root tips growing through most field soils experience much more resistance to root extension and as a result, root branching is much greater (the exception would be extremely sandy soils).

It is important to note that the 4-inch rule DOES NOT compensate or overcome the problem of leaving plants in a given container size too long. RootMaker® air-root-pruning containers stimulate extensive root branching, but the advantages do not last indefinitely -- that is, root branching increases and increases, reaching a maximum, then, if transplanting does not occur, benefits begin to DECLINE. This occurs because there is a limited amount of space in any container and as that space is filled with roots there is little space for new root development. Plants can run out of space and stagnate, even though there is no root circling. The practical solution is to transplant in a timely fashion and when the plant needs to be transplanted, not when you get around to it. (Figure3)

Figure 3. After a certain amount of time, which varies due to growing conditions and species, the root system of a plant will branch sufficiently to exploit the volume of a RootMaker® container and growth will begin to slow. Propagation containers are more sensitive than larger containers. For each container size, there is a time of good growing conditions (gray bar), then a ‘window’ in which the plant should be transplanted to a larger container (clear bar) in order to prevent stagnation (cross-hatched top bar).

By utilizing the 4-inch rule, and root-pruning containers, root branching is maximized throughout the growth medium, roots have maximum access to nutrients and water, which in turn stimulates top growth and improves plant quality. Combine the 4-inch rule with alert and timely transplanting from one root-pruning container to another and plant growth and quality of both tops and roots takes a giant step forward. Figure 4).Washed seedling roots show how roots are directed to air openings and air root pruned.

http://www.rootmaker.com/images/photogallery/P9280038.jpg

Root control, direction creates fibrous roots in RootMakers®.

http://www.rootmaker.com/images/photogallery/P9280041.jpg
Tree seedlings from RootMaker® plastic propagation containers.

http://www.rootmaker.com/images/photogallery/PA160027.jpg
I will continue to add to this post and encouarage others to add to this thread to give others answers to any questions regarding growing oaks from acorns... ;)

Oak Species

Black Oak - Quercus velutina
This is a large tree, sometimes growing more than 100 feet in height.The thick, nearly black bark is marked with deep furrows and irregularly broken ridges. The characteristic inner bark is bright yellow to orange, hence the alternate common name. This tree grows on dry uplands, slopes and ridges.

The wood, while hard and strong is not tough, checks while drying and generally is inferior to that of the Red Oak. Still, it is used in much the same ways. Historically, the inner bark was important for its tannin and as a source of yellow dye. The bitter acorn is inedible.
Tree Size height 60' - 80' diameter 2' - 3' Black Oak (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/Home/trees/oak_blk/tabid/5389/Default.aspx)

Black Oak- Quercus velutina (http://ostermiller.org/tree/blackoak.html)

http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/black_oak/bark.jpg
http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/black_oak/tree.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/black_oak/leaf.jpg
http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/black_oak/fruit.jpg

Red Oak - Quercus rubra

The bark darkens and roughens near the base of older trees, while becoming fissured with broad, grayish ridges on the upper trunk. The tree grows on rich, well-drained soils.

The wood is similar to that of the White Oak, and although more porous and less resistant to decay, is used extensively used in construction and interior work.

The Red Oak grows more rapidly than most oaks and is useful for planting in residential areas. The acorns are not as tasty as those of the White Oak, but many kinds of wildlife feed on them Northern red oak (Quercus rubra) (http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/silvics_manual/volume_2/quercus/rubra.htm)

Red Oaks (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/trees/oak_red/tabid/5395/Default.aspx)

http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/red_oak/bark.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/red_oak/fruit.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/red_oak/leaf.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/red_oak/tree.jpg

Pin Oak - Quercus palustris
The mature tree is distinctive from a distance with its ascending upper branches, horizontal middle branches, and drooping lower branches. The round acorns are the smallest of Ohio's oak trees. The Pin Oak grows in wet, often poorly drained soils of bottomlands and swamps. The strong, close-grained woods warps and checks badly in drying and has limited uses. Various wildlife, including Wood Ducks, feed on the acorns. Pin Oak (Quercus palustris) (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/tabid/5394/default.aspx)

Pin Oaks (http://www.ohio-nature.com/pin-oak-tree.html)

http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/pin_oak/bark.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/pin_oak/fruit.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/pin_oak/leaf.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/pin_oak/tree.jpg

Chinquapin Oak - Quercus muehlenbergii

The light gray or silvery-white bark of this tree resembles that of the White Oak. The tree grows well on the rich soils of bottomlands, but it also is found on drier hillsides.

The strong, durable wood is used for railroad ties, fuel and construction lumber. Its inclination to check badly during drying, however, makes it of little value for cabinetry and better furniture.

Reportedly the acorns are "sweeter" than those of any other oak. chinkapin oak (http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=244)

Chinquapin Oak (Quercus muehlenbergii) (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/trees/oak_chinq/tabid/5392/Default.aspx)

http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/chinquapin_oak/bark.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/chinquapin_oak/fruit.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/chinquapin_oak/leaf.jpg http://www.wildtech.org/Websites/07/oaks/chinquapin_oak/tree.jpg

Dwarf Chinkapin Oak can produce acorns in 3-4 years which makes it very a very attractive oak to consider planting! They are also perhaps the sweetest acorns to be found...

Quercus prinoides Willd.
Dwarf chinkapin oak
Fagaceae (Beech Family)
USDA Symbol: QUPR
USDA Native Status: Native to U.S.
GROWTH FORM: rhizomatous shrub or a small tree to 25 feet (7.6 m). BARK: thin gray bark with furrows and scaly ridges. TWIGS and BUDS: grayish twigs, broadly rounded bud brown to chestnut-brown with a blunt apex, scales have some pubescence. LEAVES: shortpetiole 1/4 - 5/8 inch (6 - 16 mm); leathery leaves are obovate, 1 1/2 - 5 1/2 inches (38 - 140 mm), 3/4 - 2 1/2 inches (19 - 63 mm), margin undulate or toothed with 3 - 8 pair of short rounded teeth, base cuneate, apex rounded; shiny dark green above, light green below with slight pubescence. ACORNS: annual; 1 - 2 acorns on peduncle up to 3/8 inch (10 mm), thin cup with short gray pubescent scales, covering up to 1/3 of nut; oblong to oval light brown nut, up to 3/4 inch (19 mm) long.

Dwarf Chinkapin oak can produce acorns at 3 - 5 years. The largest known dwarf chinkapin oak is growing in Richardson County, Nebraska.
Dwarf Chinkapin Oak seedling sources:

Dwarf Chinkapin Oak — Quercus prinoides Seedling Source (http://oikostreecrops.com/store/product.asp?cookiecheck=yes&P_ID=416&PT_ID=69&strPageHistory=cat)

Dwarf Chestnut Oak (Quercus prinoides) (http://www.treetrail.net/quercus_prinoides.html) does say this...

Quercus prinoides usually doesn't grow more than 20 feet tall, and it begins producing acorns at a young age, often when only three or four years old.

Unlike many oaks, once it starts bearing, it has a good crop almost every year. Its acorns are also less bitter and more palatable to wildlife than those of most other oaks. ALLEGHENY CHINKAPIN (http://plants.usda.gov/factsheet/pdf/fs_capu9.pdf)

MDC White Oak list (http://mdc.mo.gov/forest/IandE/oak_hickory/w_oak.htm)

Chinkapin oak is closely related to the smaller but generally similar dwarf chinkapin oak (Quercus prinoides). Besides the differences in size, the two species can be distinguished by their typical habitat: chinkapin oak is typically found on calcareous soils and rocky slopes while dwarf chinkapin oak is more likely to be found on sandy soils.

Although these two oaks are generally regarded as separate species, they are sometimes considered to belong to the same species. Interestingly, when the two are considered to be conspecific, the larger chinkapin oak is often identified as a variety of dwarf chinkapin oak (as Quercus prinoides var. acuminata) because the later was described first.

Chinkapin oak is also sometimes confused with the related chestnut oak. However, unlike the pointed teeth on the leaves of the chinkapin oak, the chestnut oak generally has rounded teeth. Unfortunately, this distinction is often not readily apparent. A more reliable means of distinguishing the two is by the bark. Chinkapin oak has a gray, flaky bark very similar to white oak but with a more yellow-brown cast to it, hence the occasional name yellow oak. Chestnut oak has dark, solid, deeply ridged bark that is very different. The chinkapin oak also has smaller acorns than the chestnut or swamp chestnut oaks, which have some of the largest. Dwarf Chinkapin Oak (Quercus prinoides) leaves

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ldplants/images/quprin872.jpg

From this site: dwarf chinkapin oak (http://www.forestryimages.org/browse/subimages.cfm?SUB=13892)

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2148075.jpg
http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2148094.jpg
http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2148071.jpg
http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2148081.jpg
http://www.forestryimages.org/images/768x512/2148092.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DwarfChestnutOakLeafandacorn.jpg

These are some pics of PassThru's DWARF CHINKAPIN OAK and you can see this is more like a shrub then a tree but laden with acorns!

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t83/PassThruPhotos/DwarfChinkapinOak001.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t83/PassThruPhotos/DwarfChinkapinOak003.jpg

Oikos Tree Crops - Dwarf Chinkapin Oak (http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/product.asp?numRecordPosition=8&P_ID=416&strPageHistory=cat&strKeywords=&SearchFor=&PT_ID=69)

Morse Nursery - Dwarf Chinkapin Source (http://www.morsenursery.com/index.php?cPath=1&pID=1069)

LINCOLN-OAKES NURSERIES (http://www.lincolnoakes.com/content/view/82/98/)

Prairie Pioneer™ Dwarf Chinkapin Oak - Quercus prinoides ‘Fort Lincoln’
Dwarf Chinkapin Oak grows typically as a multi-stemmed, suckering, large shrub or small tree, 6 - 16 feet in height. It is native in the eastern U.S. as far west as southeastern Minnesota, eastern Nebraska and Texas.

Prairie Pioneer™ is a seedling selection grown from seed collected from a native stand in southeast Nebraska by Greg Morgenson, manager of Lincoln-Oakes Nurseries, Bismarck, ND. This novel, small-statured, tree-like cultivar is collaboratively released by NDSU and may reach 24-28 feet in height at maturity.

It has withstood -35 to -40◦F numerous times in Bismarck, ND, and therefore is hardy in zone 4, and potentially zone 3b as well. Prairie Pioneer™ was selected for its dark green, very lustrous foliage and upright growth habit easily trained to a single stem. The leaves vary from 2 - 4 ½ inches long, ovate-oblong to obovate, acute tipped and wedge-shaped at base, with 4 - 6 shallow undulate to dentate teeth on each side.
The lustrous foliage is somewhat reminiscent of the leaf quality on broadleaf evergreen holly species. The underside of the leaves is finely tomentose and lighter colored. In spring, trees are covered with yellow male catkins before leaves emerge, and sessile acorns are produced if a suitable white oak member species is in the area for pollination. Fall color is typically yellow to tannish-brown.

Propagation is by side grafting on containerized seedlings of chinkapin oak (Q. muehlenbergii), swamp white oak (Q. bicolor) or preferably, bur oak, if proven to be compatible. Prairie Pioneer™ merits attention as a dense, quality-foliaged small tree for residential landscapes and various sites where large trees are unsuitable.
Current Nebraska Champion Tree - Oak, Dwarf Chinkapin (http://www.nfs.unl.edu/championtree/championtreeview.asp?championtreeid=58)

http://www.nfs.unl.edu/graphics/ChampionTree/oakdwarfchinkapin-salem-2001.jpg

Oak ID Key (http://www.livinglandsandwaters.org/milliontrees/oakacorn_id.pdf)

True Nature Farm - Dwarf Chinkapin Oak seedlings (http://truenaturefarm.com/treecatalog.html)

RPM Southern Hardwoods (http://www.rpmecosystems.com/pdf/South_catalog.pdf)

The following pics are of Chinkapin oak Quercus muehlenbergii Engelm. (not dwarf)...pretty tough to tell which is which.

Chinkapin oak (http://www.wildflower.org/plants/result.php?id_plant=QUMU)

http://www.wildflower.org/image_archive/640x480/SAW/SAW_03027.JPG
http://www.wildflower.org/image_archive/640x480/SAW/SAW_03029.JPG
http://www.wildflower.org/image_archive/640x480/SAW/SAW_03025.JPG
http://www.wildflower.org/image_archive/640x480/PCD1757/PCD1757_IMG0028.JPG

Swamp white oak - Quercus bicolor is a deciduous tree with a broad, rounded crown. The dark, shiny green leaves are silver on the bottom side. Fall color is usually yellow, but sometimes reddish purple.

Though ornamentally insignificant, flowers bloom in April attracting pollen-seeking insects that attract migrating vireos, tanagers and warblers in search of a meal. Large acorns mature in early fall providing food for deer, wild turkey, black bear, fox and gray squirrels.
Indigenous to moist, bottomland locations, this oak has surprisingly good drought resistance. swamp white oak Fagaceae Quercus bicolor (http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=313)

Swamp White Oak (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/trees/oak_wh_swamp/tabid/5402/Default.aspx)

http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/q/wqubi--brlarge12356.jpg http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/q/wqubi--lf12366.jpg http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/q/wqubi--fr16299.jpg

White Oak (Quercus alba)
A dominant forest tree on dry to moist sites throughout the Commonwealth usually reaching 80'-100' high. This tree is very important to both wildlife and people.

The acorn is an important wildlife food and eastern Native Americans made a flour from these acorns. Traditional uses of White oak wood include hardwood flooring, whiskey barrels and boat building. The famous Revolutionary War frigate, USS Constitution, "Old Ironsides", was made of White oak.

The "white oak group" includes all oaks without bristle-tipped lobes and acorns that ripen in one season Oak trees commonly hybridize and and often those hybrids grow faster, and produce mast sooner then the parent trees which has led some nurseries to perpetuate these trees, offering acorns and seedlings. Oikos Tree Crops (listed in this thread) is one such nursery offering oaks that may produce in 7-10 years.

The currently accepted scientific name of white oak is Quercus alba L.
. It is a member of the order Fagales and has been placed within
the white oak subgenus (Lepidobalanus). Three varieties of white
oak are commonly recognized :
Quercus alba var. alba
Quercus alba var. repanda Michx.
Quercus alba var. latiloba Sarg.
Some authorities recognize these entities as forms rather than varieties

White oak is highly variable genetically , and many forms and
ecotypes have been described. According to Fowells , "no definite
races have been defined, but within such a tremendously diverse habitat,
climatic races undoubtedly exist." White oak readily hybridizes with
many other species within the genus Quercus , including swamp white
oak (Q. bicolor), bur oak (Q. macrocarpa), chinkapin oak (Q.
muehlenbergi), dwarf chinkapin oak (Q. prinoides), overcup oak (Q.
lyrata), swamp chestnut oak (Q. michauxii), sandpost oak (Q.
margaretta), chestnut oak (Q. prinus), English oak (Q. robur), Durand
oak (Q. durandii), and post oak (Q. stellata) . Hybrids, their
common names, and purported origins are listed below .

Beadle oak X beadlei Trel. (Quercus alba x michauxii)
Bebb oak X bebbiana (Q. alba x Q. macrocarpa)
X bimundorum Palmer (Q. alba x Q. robur)
Deam oak X deamii (Q. alba x Q. muehlenbergi)
Faxon oak X faxonii Trel. (Q. alba x Q. prinoides)
Fernow oak X fernowii Trel. (Q. alba x Q. stellata)
Jack oak X jackiana Schneid. (Q. alba x Q. montana)
Saul oak X saulii Schneid. (Q. alba x Q. prinus)

Saul oak was formerly known as Q. alba f. ryderii but is now considered
a heterozygous hybrid form of white oak .

Introgressive populations are locally common throughout much of the
range of white oak. Hybrid swarms derived from complex mixtures of
parental forms are particularly common on disturbed sites, at the
margins of white oak's range, and where several oak species occur
sympatrically .White Oak (Quercus alba) (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/trees/oak_white/tabid/5401/Default.aspx)

white oak Fagaceae Quercus alba L. (http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=35)

http://plants.usda.gov/gallery/large/qual_002_lhp.jpg
http://www.oplin.org/tree/fact%20pages/oak_white/bark.jpg http://www.oplin.org/tree/fact%20pages/oak_white/tree.jpg http://www.oplin.org/tree/fact%20pages/oak_white/fruit.jpg

This is a stand of young white oaks

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/YoungWhiteoaks.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/WhiteOakStands.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TSI/Whiteoakclumps.jpg

Concordia Oak is a 3-way cross between a swamp white oak, chinkapin oak and dwarf chinkapin oak.

In 1974 botanist Paul Thompson noticed an unusual oak at an I-70 rest stop near Concordia. His discovery revealed a botanically rare, three-way hybrid that occurs only in Lafayette County. At the time, few specimens remained. Concordians hurried to get the rare acorns to the state nursery. Thanks to Friends of the Concordia Oak and the George O. White State Nursery, the oak’s future is secure. To learn more about seedling availability, call Concordia Parks and Recreation at 660-463-4277. There is some confusion between another "concordia oak" as mentioned here...

The name “Concordia oak,” used for the threeway hybrid from Lafayette County, already designates a small cultivar of the English oak (Q. robur ‘Concordia’, known for its bright yellow spring leaves). Surely taxonomists will want to avoid confusion here. Could you tell us what botanical epithet, if any, has been settled for the Missouri tree, and identify its three parents?

David Dunlap, West Plains
Editors’ note: You’re right—Concordia oak is also a common name for the English oak cultivar you mentioned below. Our Concordia is Quercus X introgressa (named by botanist P.M. Thompson). http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Concordia%20Oak/ConcordiaOak2.jpg
http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Concordia%20Oak/ConcordiaOak5.jpg
http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Concordia%20Oak/ConcordiaOakAcorns.jpg

Sawtooth Oak (Quercus acutissima) is in the red oak family. Native to Asia, it is noted for its fast growth (two feet per year) and early acorn production.

The first acorns are routinely produced in five to 10 years versus the 25 or 30 years it usually takes native oaks to start producing acorns.
The acorns are large and dropped in September or early October. The sawtooth is also noted for its consistent annual production and not being as subject to frosts or poor crops which often limit white oak production.

Although the red oak group has a reputation for being less palatable (containing more tannic acid) than the white oak group, the sawtooth does not.

Sawtooths will reach 50 to 70 feet in height. They are sometimes used as an ornamental shade tree, but retain the dead leaves on the limb well into winter.

Sawtooth leaves are similar to American chestnut leaves but are smaller, four to eight inches long, and have more sharply pointed teeth. Yields from mature trees in good years range from 1,000 to 1,300 pounds of acorns per tree.

Sawtooth Oak (Quercus acutissima) (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/trees/oak_sawth/tabid/5396/Default.aspx)

sawtooth oak Fagaceae Quercus acutissima Carruthers (http://www.cnr.vt.edu/DENDRO/DENDROLOGY/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=67)

http://plants.usda.gov/gallery/standard/quac80_005_shp.jpg http://plants.usda.gov/gallery/standard/quac80_003_shp.jpg http://plants.usda.gov/gallery/standard/quac80_007_shp.jpg http://plants.usda.gov/gallery/standard/quac80_002_shp.jpg
http://greenwoodnursery.com/Images/sawtooth_oakpic.jpg

Should you fertilize oak trees to increase acorn production?

probably not....read this link...

Increased acorn production (http://fwf.ag.utk.edu/personnel/charper/pdfs/Fertilizing%20oaks%20for%20acorns--Wildlife%20Trends.pdf)

letemgrow
06-02-2010, 07:44 PM
Direct planting acorns/chestnuts has been a great way for me to get seedlings started with ease.

Here is a white oak from seed I planted 2 falls ago. It is about 2 feet tall already and growing like gang busters!!! Nuts absolutely NEED protection the first year to keep hungry rodents from finding them.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/TrailCamPics014-1.jpg

American Chestnut:

This American Chesnut seed was planted last October and the tree guard pushed down into the ground about 2 inches. This pic was taken on 5-10 and the seedling has already doubled in size since the pic. Talk about something that grows like gang busters!! The American Chestnut does just that.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Farm%20Trip%2005-10-10/100_1455.jpg

letemgrow
06-02-2010, 07:49 PM
Deer also love to browse the oaks on my property. I did a little test to show protected vs unprotected.

These Northern Reds are literally 10 yards from each other and look at the difference in growth. Pics were taken the same day.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Farm%20Trip%2005-10-10/100_1451.jpg

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Farm%20Trip%2005-10-10/100_1450.jpg

letemgrow
06-02-2010, 07:52 PM
Also, be patient when direct planting as it can take them till late may to come up some years.

I still have dwarf chinkapin oaks popping up and they start out looking this this:

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/TrailCamPics002.jpg

Then end up like this!! :D

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/DwarfChinnkapinOak.jpg

Central Iowa
06-02-2010, 10:27 PM
I didn't get a direct seeding area sprayed with Oust before the Oaks leafed out what would you recommend I do to eliminate competition at this point? Besides the weeds they are doing great.

dbltree
06-02-2010, 11:47 PM
I didn't get a direct seeding area sprayed with Oust before the Oaks leafed out what would you recommend I do to eliminate competition at this point? Besides the weeds they are doing great.

Select (clethodim) or Fusilade (fluazifop-P) will control grasses post emergence but broadleaf control at this point might be pretty tough...;)

Central Iowa
06-03-2010, 10:54 PM
Thanks bud.

letemgrow
06-05-2010, 10:42 PM
The Concordia oaks seem to be doing well!! Planted this one at my grandparents yard and it sure seems to like this spot!!

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/100_1476.jpg

Schburr Oak from Oikos. Really taking off this year after 2 years of not seeing much.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/100_1473.jpg

letemgrow
06-05-2010, 10:43 PM
The white oaks are going to have quite a few again this year, at least on the trees I think are top notch producers.

White Oak

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/100_1463.jpg

This is what the same tree looked like later last year and will be the third year of what I call above average crops.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/WhiteOak2.jpg

Bur Oak

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/100_1475.jpg

letemgrow
06-05-2010, 10:47 PM
My Shumard Oaks are doing very well. They were XL one year old seedlings from the MDC. Already put on over a foot of growth and I think the real key to that was prepping the soil the past year with a couple apps of roundup so there is little weed competition.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/100_1471.jpg

Hardwood11
06-09-2010, 09:02 PM
In Minnesota the DNR nursery is buying acorns this fall. The pay $45 a bushel for bur oak or red oak acorns. Most years we have thousands that we can pick up if I take the time, and if my boys help me. Does anyone know in relation to say a five gallon bucket how many buckets it would take for one bushel?

Any other comparison or measurement?

JNRBRONC
06-09-2010, 09:40 PM
Does anyone know in relation to say a five gallon bucket how many buckets it would take for one bushel?

Any other comparison or measurement?

I'd guess 2.5 five gallon buckets to the bushel. Just a guess though.

dbltree
06-10-2010, 06:40 AM
I'd guess 2.5 five gallon buckets to the bushel. Just a guess though.

I am clueless on that one but Randy is probably in the ballpark I would say. IA State Nursery also buys their acorns for roughly the same price.

You have to call in on a certain date and they select a very few who get to collect and sell acorns and the whole thing is wrapped up in minutes.;)

Hardwood11
06-16-2010, 10:54 AM
I noticed on QDMA.com that you can buy BurEnglish hybrids from Lawyer Nursery for a reasonable price. Has anyone planted any? Also, I have a catalog from the Idaho State Nursery and they sell a hybrid burenglish plug for $2.00 a tree. Again, anyone tried these, recommend them?

They are hardy to zone 3, so is should work in MN, you would think they would grow fairly fast in Iowa as well?

letemgrow
06-16-2010, 11:03 AM
I noticed on QDMA.com that you can buy BurEnglish hybrids from Lawyer Nursery for a reasonable price. Has anyone planted any? Also, I have a catalog from the Idaho State Nursery and they sell a hybrid burenglish plug for $2.00 a tree. Again, anyone tried these, recommend them?

They are hardy to zone 3, so is should work in MN, you would think they would grow fairly fast in Iowa as well?


I have two from an IA source growing and they easily grow 2+ feet a year in my area. The ID source sells excellent seedlings as well and I highly recommend them.

dbltree
06-16-2010, 12:28 PM
I have a catalog from the Idaho State Nursery and they sell a hybrid burenglish plug for $2.00 a tree. Again, anyone tried these, recommend them?


They have bur x gambel now I think but I have planted both trees from both Oikos and Idaho. The Idaho trees are cheaper and very easy to plant and almost impossible to kill!

Here's an Idaho BurxGambel planted in a hinge cutting last spring

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Burxgambel.jpg

Here's a BurXEnglish a few months after it was planted

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/BurenglishoakMay1209.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/WaltsOaks3.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Hybridoak.jpg

The older BurxGambels have been repeatedly shredded by deer over the years so I finally got around to protecting them this year.

Of all my hybrids...the Swamp White Oak hybrids have been the fastest growing and earliest producing....:way:

Hardwood11
06-16-2010, 02:07 PM
Dbltree: Yes, you are correct it is a burgambel. There are so many varieties, it is confusing. I like the looks the Idaho nursery trees. What do you think of there wild apple tree, a bit off subject, but for $2.00 it looks like it could be mass quantity planting for a future orchard?? I am thinking I might order 25 burgambel oaks and 25 wild apples next spring or more if they have a minimum order.

dbltree
06-16-2010, 06:44 PM
Dbltree: Yes, you are correct it is a burgambel. There are so many varieties, it is confusing. I like the looks the Idaho nursery trees. What do you think of there wild apple tree, a bit off subject, but for $2.00 it looks like it could be mass quantity planting for a future orchard?? I am thinking I might order 25 burgambel oaks and 25 wild apples next spring or more if they have a minimum order.

I believe my friend Walt ordered 5 of those apple trees but beyond that I know nothing about them...might do great and if you have lots of room it surely couldn't hurt to try some...:way:

Joey Rott
06-17-2010, 09:03 AM
Make sure you order early from the Idaho Nursery. They tend to sell out of a lot of their tree's, early.

Hardwood11
06-17-2010, 04:47 PM
Joey Rott:

You have planted the Idaho state trees? Do they sell out because they are that much in demand or do they just have limited quantity? Thanks.

dbltree
06-17-2010, 08:00 PM
Joey Rott:

You have planted the Idaho state trees? Do they sell out because they are that much in demand or do they just have limited quantity? Thanks.

Both! I think we ordered in November last year...;)

letemgrow
06-21-2010, 01:24 PM
The oaks sure are taking off this year!! Putting some fencing up really helped these.

Northern red with about 1.5 foot of growth so far this year.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/NorthernRedOak-1.jpg

Dwarf Chinkapin Oak with over a foot of growth so far on several leaders.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/DwarfChinkapins.jpg

dbltree
06-21-2010, 08:29 PM
Wow! Lookin good Phil! All this rain is no doubt helping growth this year!

dbltree
06-28-2010, 09:19 AM
I fall planted acorns this past year for the first time but had very low success rates compared to nearly 95% success in my Rootmakers with cold stored acorns, spring planted acorns.

Growth rate is also very dramatic as you can see in these pics.

This is a fall planted Dwarf Chinkapin Oak seedling

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0004.jpg

These are from the same acorns, stored in the fridge over winter and planted in Rootmakers in March.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0005.jpg

I used a small trowel to plant some of the Rootmaker seedlings and to use for a comparison in the pics

Fall planted DCO

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0008.jpg

Rootmaker DCO seedling

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0007.jpg

This is the root system when pulled from the Rootmaker container

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0006.jpg

Very simple to plant compared to a long straggly bare root seedling that one has to stuff down a small hole! I just used a small trowel and opened up a hole and planted the neat little package in seconds.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0011.jpg

This is a DCO I planted last spring from Okios but I think I burned it with gly and Oust because I didn't get it sprayed until after it leafed out.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0003.jpg

This is an Okios DCO unsprayed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0002.jpg

I had used a weed mat on that one just to give them a try, held in place with a couple pieces of wood.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0012.jpg

Weed mats are cost prohibitive (at least for me) to use on a large scale compared to herbicides but they could be useful when planting a handful of oak seedlings in a hinge cut area that you prefer not to return to for spraying.

Big Rock Trees (http://www.bigrocktrees.com/) carries Rootmaker products

Oikos Tree Crops (http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/prodtype.asp?cookiecheck=yes&PT_ID=6&strPageHistory=cat) carries hybrid and regular oak seedlings and acorns along with weed mats, root gels and other planting aids.

I don't want to suggest that fall planting acorns is not a successful planting method because many people have good luck with it but for me I am sold on using the Rootmakers and storing the acorns for spring planting. The Rootmakers air prune the roots and encourage rapid growth that will continue for the life of the tree making it worth while to both plant early producing hybrid oaks but get them started with a method that will enhance rapid growth over all other trees.

I tubed these seedlings so I'm curious how they will compare, will the fall planted seedling catch up, will the Rootmaker seedlings out grow/out produce normally grown seedlings?

Time will tell.... ;)

letemgrow
06-28-2010, 09:26 AM
I am curious to see how well the direct planted/rootmaker seedlings end up looking like 5-10 years from now too. Rootmakers for sure make it easier to care for the seedlings over direct planted. Direct planted requires less work to plant an acorn an inch deep, tube then spray to get them started.

Your Oikos DCO's look far different than the ones I have for some reason?? The leaves on my seedlings are much bigger, maybe that means are better site for them or who knows??

Oikos DCO I posted just above also. This came from the order we split Paul.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/DwarfChinkapins.jpg

Hardwood11
06-28-2010, 10:37 AM
As stated on Qdma.com, I have had fair to good luck on fall planted acorns. Squirrels do get their share, same with walnuts.

The best luck that I have had it to pop them in the ground in the fall in areas not frequented by squirrel traffic. Then I check next year, and I usually find enough survivors to put tubes around. Once the tube is established the small bur oaks grow fairly fast, probably twice to three times as fast than without a tube.

I found quite a few natural oaks growing in an overgrown pasture. I am sure they had been browsed down by cattle for many years. I put a tube on the stunted oaks and now they are really taking off. (Of course it helps that we have had plenty of rain and some heat!!)

Thanks for the tip on that, probably the best way to establish oaks is finding the natural ones and taking care of them.

letemgrow
06-28-2010, 11:00 AM
Thanks for the tip on that, probably the best way to establish oaks is finding the natural ones and taking care of them.

It is a tool to use what is already there, no reason to plant an oak species that is already present unless the tree has something special (produces tons of acorns, fast growth etc).

I use it quite a bit, after doing some TSI, hinging etc I find lots of goodies that pop up and it is much easier work to just cage them since there was no prep work needs for them. :drink2:

TC
06-28-2010, 12:27 PM
Has anyone tried transplanting newly sprouted oaks that had come out naturally? I can think of a few that have come up this spring in fire break lanes that get mowed annually. What have been the sucesses or failures?

letemgrow
06-28-2010, 12:37 PM
Has anyone tried transplanting newly sprouted oaks that had come out naturally? I can think of a few that have come up this spring in fire break lanes that get mowed annually. What have been the sucesses or failures?


Dug up a bunch of concordia oaks in June or July last year, the key is to get the soil ball and all so it does not break apart as bare root trees will not do well in this heat all leafed out.

Here is a pic of them after transplanting to rootmakers.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Concordia%20Oak/ConcordiaOaks.jpg

The day I pulled them out, the lady I got them from had most dug up when I arrived. Just make sure you dig down to a v and go about a foot deep or as deep as possible to get as much tap root as you can. :way:

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Concordia%20Oak/ConcordiaOakSeedlings.jpg

Hardwood11
06-28-2010, 01:07 PM
Letemgrow: Where do you get all of those cheaper plastic pots? Is there a place that sells them in bulk, reasonably priced? I have 100+, but would like to order some more, and most nurseries, chain stores do not carry them.

letemgrow
06-28-2010, 01:27 PM
Letemgrow: Where do you get all of those cheaper plastic pots? Is there a place that sells them in bulk, reasonably priced? I have 100+, but would like to order some more, and most nurseries, chain stores do not carry them.

The lady that owned the concordia oaks had those pots ready for me so I just paid her for them. I believe they came from wal-mart, but I would not grow seedlings in those pots as they do not prevent root circling.

Get some rootmaker bags/trays instead IMHO.

Big Rock Trees sells them and they are on this forum as a vendor. :way:

Hardwood11
06-28-2010, 01:55 PM
Letemgrow: I usually only pot seedlings from spring until fall, you don't think a 2 gallon pot would work for that? It seems to have worked for me in the past, but maybe I am missing something.

letemgrow
06-28-2010, 02:05 PM
Letemgrow: I usually only pot seedlings from spring until fall, you don't think a 2 gallon pot would work for that? It seems to have worked for me in the past, but maybe I am missing something.


They can work, just make sure when you plant the seedlings the roots are not circled around the pot. If you break them up they should do fine that way. :way:

dbltree
07-01-2010, 11:53 PM
Ok...so planting trees near the first of July does seem borderline insane I will admit but since we have already saturated soils here in Iowa I decided to try planting more of the Rootmaker grown seedlings and see how they do.

The Rootmaker planted acorns have now developed very dense root systems and unlike bareroot seedlings are self contained in their own root ball so to speak and given normal soil moisture should survive just fine.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0008-1.jpg

I had planted acorns last fall and protected them with short tubes, some of which ccontained new seedlings

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0010.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0025.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0012-1.jpg

Many more however did not so I picked up the small tubes and replaced them with a Rootmaker grown hybrid oak or chestnut seedling and a Protex tube marked withthe name of the hybrid and date planted.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0023.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0017.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0021.jpg

I took care to pack the clay soil over the top of the root ball to prevent drying

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0014.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0009.jpg

and then used some of the loose soil to seal the bottom of the tube itself

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0015.jpg

I had already sprayed Oust XP and simazine this spring and all that remains is the Big Bluestem, oblivious to either of those herbicides!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0028.jpg

I planted a dozen trees at the beginning of our first full week without rain since April 24th so I'll see how these do before planting anymore but i really think with normal summer rainfall they will do just fine.... ;)

letemgrow
07-06-2010, 08:20 PM
The acorns I planted out last fall are really taking off!!

Northern Red Oak with 2 feet of growth so far.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/100_1487.jpg

Dwarf Chinkapin Oak.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/100_1484.jpg

dbltree
07-07-2010, 03:45 PM
Northern Red Oak with 2 feet of growth so far.

C-mon!! What are you feedin' those things! :eek::D

letemgrow
07-07-2010, 05:33 PM
C-mon!! What are you feedin' those things! :eek::D

:D I call it proper seed placement. :way:

This is an area that had northern red oaks in it so I knew it was a favored site and it is where they get morning sun and afternoon shade so they are not baked. Also a great site for my chestnuts as some are with 20 yards of this tree. I did use some osmocote fertilizer and this seedling is an acorn off of this tree. Look at all those acorns it had last year and the tree is about 15 feet tall!!! Maybe it is just a very vigorous seedling...I sure hope so anyways.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/NorthernRedOak.jpg

dbltree
07-07-2010, 07:21 PM
Sheezh! That thing is loaded for only 15' tall! I think you have some "potent" dirt Phil! :D

Hardwood11
07-08-2010, 01:46 PM
Oaks on steroids! This year has been one of the best for growing oaks. We have had consistent rains of 1-2 inches one week, 2-3 inches the next, then some nice sunny days. Perfect year for growing oaks, much better than the previous 4-5 years, which had terrible dry stretches that killed a lot of my young oak trees!

letemgrow
07-08-2010, 03:21 PM
Oaks on steroids! This year has been one of the best for growing oaks. We have had consistent rains of 1-2 inches one week, 2-3 inches the next, then some nice sunny days. Perfect year for growing oaks, much better than the previous 4-5 years, which had terrible dry stretches that killed a lot of my young oak trees!


This year has been for sure been great, they are now getting enough dry spells to spread their roots, but also getting enough rains to really keep pouring on the growth. :way:

DE2IA
07-14-2010, 09:43 AM
Does anyone know of any additional sources for Dwarf Chinkapin Oaks? They seem to be hard to come by and are often sold out from the few places that do have them. Anyone know of a source for the acorns or would be willing to part with any this fall? I really want to try to start some of these trees (they sound great!). Thanks.

letemgrow
07-14-2010, 10:05 AM
Does anyone know of any additional sources for Dwarf Chinkapin Oaks? They seem to be hard to come by and are often sold out from the few places that do have them. Anyone know of a source for the acorns or would be willing to part with any this fall? I really want to try to start some of these trees (they sound great!). Thanks.


They are hard to come by, I may be able to collect some again this fall with a permit so keep in touch. :way:

DE2IA
07-14-2010, 11:28 AM
Sounds Great!! :way::way:

ironwood
07-14-2010, 04:06 PM
I found some on line $35 for a 100 acorns. Avaidable this fall. Seemed pretty expensive

letemgrow
07-14-2010, 04:10 PM
I found some on line $35 for a 100 acorns. Avaidable this fall. Seemed pretty expensive



Was that Advantage Forestry? I asked them about their acorns and how far up they were hardy too since I am in zone 5. I believe he said theres are collected from zone 7.

DCO acorns are always at a premium like the seedlings so they are going to be much higher than standard acorns. Its capitalism and I can say it took me 3 hours to pick 8 pounds last year. :way:

Here is a contact to call to buy them by the pound this year from NE. I believe that he is the assistant director for the Nebraska Statewide Arboretum.

Tell him Phil Stark sent ya :D

Bob Henrickson
402/472-7855
rhenrickson2@unl.edu
(rhenrickson2@unl.edu)

dbltree
07-14-2010, 06:05 PM
Bob Henrickson
402/472-7855
rhenrickson2@unl.edu
(rhenrickson2@unl.edu)<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

I forgot about that source...thanks Phil! Last year they had a acorn crop failure so hopefully they will have a bumper cop this year :way:

Hardwood11
07-18-2010, 04:54 PM
Just curious, how do they transport acorns via mail, what type of packaging keeps them moist and cool?

dbltree
07-18-2010, 08:16 PM
Just curious, how do they transport acorns via mail, what type of packaging keeps them moist and cool?

Nothing fancy, just in peat moss in ziplocs...;)

Hardwood11
07-18-2010, 09:13 PM
Is anyone interested in a trade, I have 100+ year old bur oaks that will produce nice acorns, almost every year. I would trade for some swamp white oak acorns??

There is a 13 to 14 foot bur oak in my yard that is around 8 years old that started from an acorn, so I know they grow at a moderate rate.

letemgrow
07-20-2010, 08:36 PM
Just curious, how do they transport acorns via mail, what type of packaging keeps them moist and cool?

If they are sent out fresh from the tree, you will get them before they even start to germinate anyways. Peat and ziplocs work the best as already stated. :way:

dbltree
07-24-2010, 09:30 AM
Some of Walt's oaks are already peeking out the top of the Protex tubes!!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Tree%20Tubes%20and%20protectors/AmesOak.jpg

Those trees were 2' + tall when we got them from the Iowa State Nursery howeve,r so the hybrid oaks were only 6" high but are catching up!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Tree%20Tubes%20and%20protectors/DCOgrowth.jpg

We have had some fierce straight line winds that took down trees but the tubes have at worst leaned a little and none have opned up thus far. The hybrid oak in this tube is likely to clear the top by the end of summer!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Tree%20Tubes%20and%20protectors/CIMG1534.jpg

Difficult to really get a good view from the top but one thing is clear...the leaves are very healthy and robust!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Tree%20Tubes%20and%20protectors/CIMG1538.jpg

A few of the fall planted Dwark Chinkapin Oak acorns finally did sprout at Walt's also

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Tree%20Tubes%20and%20protectors/CIMG1527.jpg

and where they did not I started filling in with some Rootmaker grown DCO's

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Tree%20Tubes%20and%20protectors/CIMG1526.jpg

Big difference in growth between the fall planted and rootmaker grown seedlings and I am curious as all get out how long term growth will compare but...I have an idea which one will win out... :way:

Hardwood11
07-25-2010, 09:51 AM
What is the best price on a quality 4 foot tree tube. I may need to order several hundred next spring, any companies that have good high volume discounts?

I have used Tree Pro in the past...happy with them, but also looking for other options.

letemgrow
07-25-2010, 10:18 AM
What is the best price on a quality 4 foot tree tube. I may need to order several hundred next spring, any companies that have good high volume discounts?

I have used Tree Pro in the past...happy with them, but also looking for other options.


I would recommend Protex, you can double them up for things like walnuts since they have a compound leaf structure and need larger tubes. I would use 8 inch tubes (double up 2 protexs or any other 4 inch tube) for all trees as they work better and produce a stronger central leader IMO.

The protex tubes are 2.17 per tube when ordering over 300 for 5 footers. I have some 6 years old and they still look new even after being ran over a few times. :drink2:

If they last 6 years, it makes it much more feasable to tube lots of trees since they could be used on several different seedlings a piece.

http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/View_Catalog_Page.asp?mi=1623&title=Protex+Pro%2FGro+Solid+Tube+Tree+Protectors

Here is a pic of the 6 year old Protex, no way treepro are making it that long, but the treepros sure work great!!

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/TrailCamPics003.jpg

dbltree
07-25-2010, 03:17 PM
Walt and I split an order of 400 X 48" Protex tubes and got the for $1.67...doubt you can beat that price on any other tubes. As Phil says I think they are pretty much indestructible and so far ours have endured some 50-60mph straight line winds with no problems.

Skip said some of his came apart last winter but so far none of ours have. In tree tube tests the Protex were middle to above the center as far as growth rates etc.

Real happy with ours so far but they do take some time to put together...;)

Hardwood11
07-27-2010, 09:50 AM
Dbltree: I saw on your site or in a post that you planted some bur gambel oaks from the Idaho nursery 2-3 years ago. Do you have any new pictures of how they are doing.

I called the nursery and the lady said she thought they would do well in Minnesota, but she said humidity may affect them...It is more humid in Iowa, so I am guessing that if they do well in Iowa, they should do fine in MN?

They are rated to Zone 3 and I am in Zone 4. Thanks.

dbltree
07-27-2010, 05:07 PM
Dbltree: I saw on your site or in a post that you planted some bur gambel oaks from the Idaho nursery 2-3 years ago. Do you have any new pictures of how they are doing.

I called the nursery and the lady said she thought they would do well in Minnesota, but she said humidity may affect them...It is more humid in Iowa, so I am guessing that if they do well in Iowa, they should do fine in MN?

They are rated to Zone 3 and I am in Zone 4. Thanks.

Ours are thriving so far! I actually have some that are 8 years old but bucks have thrashed them every year to within an inch of their life! I finally got busy and started fencing some of them.

The new ones are in tubes are doing great!:way:

Hardwood11
07-27-2010, 05:37 PM
No issues with humidity then, I didn't think that would be an issue? I'll order some, not a bad price $2. Thanks

letemgrow
08-01-2010, 10:41 AM
The dwarf chinkapin oaks I planted by acorns last fall or all over the board some are looking fantastic, while others planted right next are not looking so great. Here is what the better ones look like and are around a foot tall already.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/DwarfChinkapin.jpg

letemgrow
08-01-2010, 10:42 AM
Always keep a look out for better than average producing white oaks. This one falls into that category for me, it had BUMPER crops the past 2 years and have some this year too. Obviously not as many as the last 2 tho.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/WhiteOak1.jpg

Hardwood11
08-17-2010, 04:13 PM
Anyone know which oak has the best shade tolerance, I have been planting some in existing timber with limited sun. Most seem to be living and growing, not extremely fast. Bur Oak would be first at this point, but Red and Pin Oak have also been OK....anyone experimented with oaks in limited sunlight?

letemgrow
08-17-2010, 05:59 PM
Anyone know which oak has the best shade tolerance, I have been planting some in existing timber with limited sun. Most seem to be living and growing, not extremely fast. Bur Oak would be first at this point, but Red and Pin Oak have also been OK....anyone experimented with oaks in limited sunlight?

It does not seem any oaks do well with shade. Hence the problem with hickory taking over when large oaks are taken out by logging. The hickory can lay in the shade and wait, while oaks cannot. :way:

letemgrow
08-17-2010, 06:01 PM
I found another good white oak to collect acorns from. This puppy had a pile of acorns while most others had none or very few while I was walking at one of the city parks. There are several you can see in the background also. :way:

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/LoadedWhiteOak.jpg

Hardwood11
08-18-2010, 09:53 AM
Letemgrow: I guess my question was more on the partial sun--not full shade question. My experience in the past 15+ years of planting trees and really watching the results is that partial shade helps some trees. They tend not to burn up in the summer heat, the moisture in the soil seems to stay and therefore help the tree grow.

I have bur oak that were planted in partial shade that are now 15 feet tall. I really did not plant any red oak and pin oak up until 4 years ago, so my experience is short, however, both have shot up nice in my moist soil behind my house, which is also shaded at least 50% of the time! Contrary to some which have died or grown very slow in the full sun.

Personally, I think a tube protected oak with partial shade will grow moderately fast and will have a good chance to survive.

letemgrow
08-18-2010, 02:57 PM
Letemgrow: I guess my question was more on the partial sun--not full shade question. My experience in the past 15+ years of planting trees and really watching the results is that partial shade helps some trees. They tend not to burn up in the summer heat, the moisture in the soil seems to stay and therefore help the tree grow.

I have bur oak that were planted in partial shade that are now 15 feet tall. I really did not plant any red oak and pin oak up until 4 years ago, so my experience is short, however, both have shot up nice in my moist soil behind my house, which is also shaded at least 50% of the time! Contrary to some which have died or grown very slow in the full sun.

Personally, I think a tube protected oak with partial shade will grow moderately fast and will have a good chance to survive.

Partial shade does help some tree species. Northern reds like afternoon shade like an American Chestnut and grow best on the slopes that are not scorched by the summer suns. If they can get a few hours of sun a day, then most oaks should do fine. Then you just have to fine tune and plant each species in their desired location. :way:

Hardwood11
09-05-2010, 08:15 PM
Chestnut Oak

I was told by a nursery owner that Chestnut oak produces acorns at a fairly young age, and that the deer love them, any opinions on this oak...I know of no chestnut oaks in MN, but they are rated to zone 4 so they should survive.

dbltree
09-05-2010, 09:17 PM
Chestnut Oak

I was told by a nursery owner that Chestnut oak produces acorns at a fairly young age, and that the deer love them, any opinions on this oak...I know of no chestnut oaks in MN, but they are rated to zone 4 so they should survive.

Heck...I would give some a try! I personally haven't tried any but if they will grow in you area give them a shot...:way:

Hardwood11
09-06-2010, 11:32 AM
I am going to try every oak rated to zone 3-4. Monitor the results at 5 years, 10 years etc... The bur oak is very common in my area, with some red oak and northern pin oak...All three have done well on my farms in WC Minnesota, as long as we get adequate rain during the first rain.

As far as hybrids and unique varieties, it looks like the cross between the bur and swamp white oak may be the best so far.
* 25 bur-gambel oaks coming this fall and they are rated to zone 3.

I think the chestnut oak and maybe even the black oak will do well in my area as well, just a guess, but we'll see how they fare.

dbltree
09-06-2010, 01:19 PM
black oak

Now that one I would skip! Very bitter toxic acorns and not highly preferred compared to reds and pins...I know cause I have tons of them! ;)

huntdoc
09-08-2010, 03:42 PM
You guys convinced me and I collected acorns from 2 different reds and 1 white oak. I start with the float test? Then how quickly do I need to get them into the frig if I want to plant next Spring?

letemgrow
09-08-2010, 07:07 PM
If they dropped, then you should be good to go. I would put them in the fridge within a week as the white oaks will probably start germinating soon. The reds won't till they have been in the fridge for a while.

Sligh1
09-09-2010, 12:31 AM
You'll want to plant the whites this fall yet if you can. The reds can wait til next spring. Make sure to save lots of batches. If for some reason you did store whites and did NOT plant this fall BUT waited- get TONS of them because some are going to die for sure. Obviously make sure you take time to store correctly. Try and get whites in this fall though. next spring when you do your float test, you want to make sure you have plenty just in case some or a lot don't make it. Obviously a tiny bit more effort to make sure you load up and you can never have "too many".... Well, ok maybe you can, my wife didn't appreciate all the fridge room I took up last year! :)

dbltree
09-09-2010, 07:18 AM
My pin oaks have responded to the protex tubes in a BIG way!

Here is a typical pin oak seedling without being tubed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Tree%20Tubes%20and%20protectors/IMG_0208.jpg

Here are the typical pins in Protex tubes!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Tree%20Tubes%20and%20protectors/IMG_0205.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Tree%20Tubes%20and%20protectors/IMG_0209.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Tree%20Tubes%20and%20protectors/IMG_0207.jpg

I only tubed about every 3rd tree and the difference is consistant right down the row so it's not a fluke or a "one tree" thing!

The white oaks have responded to the tubes but not as dramtically as the pins and some reds..:way:

Hardwood11
09-09-2010, 05:13 PM
Wow, the pin oaks look great, you will have a great screen there, and someday acorns. I wonder how long it will take for them to produce acorns. I have heard 12-15 years with pin oaks, but being they are tubed, maybe that will speed up the process

letemgrow
09-09-2010, 05:24 PM
Those reds look like they are really enjoying those protex tubes! I will be ordering some more this fall for sure!!

Hardwood11
09-09-2010, 09:06 PM
Dbltree/Letemgrow: Do you know on average when Reds and Pins start producing acorns?

dbltree
09-09-2010, 09:26 PM
Dbltree/Letemgrow: Do you know on average when Reds and Pins start producing acorns?

I think your pretty close in the 10-15 yr range...;)

letemgrow
09-10-2010, 09:53 AM
I think your pretty close in the 10-15 yr range...;)


Thats a good number, they are faster to produce than white oaks in a lot of cases. They may produce faster on an ideal site with proper care.

Hardwood11
09-10-2010, 11:57 AM
Northern pin oak may produce before 10 years in the right setting. Some northern pin oaks may actually be hybrids of red and pin oaks according to what I have read, no way for me to verify that though.

Some of the Northern pin oaks that I have planted have really grown fast, while others have done very little. Tubes sure help!

651
09-10-2010, 08:50 PM
So, I should plant into rootmaker pots burr oak acorns now since they germinate fast? I can then transplant in the spring or wait till fall? Thanks!

dbltree
09-11-2010, 12:47 PM
So, I should plant into rootmaker pots burr oak acorns now since they germinate fast? I can then transplant in the spring or wait till fall? Thanks!

I store my white oak acorns in the fridge in slightly damp peat moss, then plant them in Rootmaker cells in late March (indoors).

If you start them in Rootmakers now I'm afraid they would not survive the winter unless you mulched or covered them somehow?

dark_viper42
09-14-2010, 02:57 PM
I just ordered some dwarf chinkapin oak acorns from advantage forestry. Just an FYI they have some ready to ship...

Do you guys normally put dco seedlings in tree tubes?

dbltree
09-14-2010, 06:22 PM
I just ordered some dwarf chinkapin oak acorns from advantage forestry. Just an FYI they have some ready to ship...

Do you guys normally put dco seedlings in tree tubes?

We tube as many as we can afford too and they respond very well !

Keep us posted on how your DCO's do for you...:way:

letemgrow
09-14-2010, 06:48 PM
I just ordered some dwarf chinkapin oak acorns from advantage forestry. Just an FYI they have some ready to ship...

Do you guys normally put dco seedlings in tree tubes?

What zone will you be planting them in?

dark_viper42
09-15-2010, 06:39 AM
We tube as many as we can afford too and they respond very well !

Keep us posted on how your DCO's do for you...:way:

I'll get all mine in a tube and keep you updated. All of my acorns will be started in Rootmakers... :)



What zone will you be planting them in?

I'm in zone 6. South Central Kansas.

Hardwood11
09-16-2010, 03:49 PM
Bumper crop of acorns in many parts of the US, and I have the fewest that I have ever seen? Anyone else really short on acorns this year?

letemgrow
09-16-2010, 04:05 PM
Bumper crop of acorns in many parts of the US, and I have the fewest that I have ever seen? Anyone else really short on acorns this year?

Short on white oak acorns, but heavy on most all the reds I checked. I could hear the acorns raining down out of those trees yesterday. The white oaks had bumper crops the past 2 years so I am not suprised that there are fewer this year anyways.

Hardwood11
09-18-2010, 04:54 PM
I just planted a bunch of Bur-Gambel oaks from the U of Idaho nursery. Very nice trees! They just might be the ticket (cold tolerant, drought tolerant, early acorns, fast growth...) I hope they live up to the description.

dbltree
09-18-2010, 06:29 PM
I just planted a bunch of Bur-Gambel oaks from the U of Idaho nursery. Very nice trees! They just might be the ticket (cold tolerant, drought tolerant, early acorns, fast growth...) I hope they live up to the description.

I think you'll be happy with them! They grow even faster in tubes if you can tube a few of them...:way:

Hardwood11
09-19-2010, 09:06 AM
I think you'll be happy with them! They grow even faster in tubes if you can tube a few of them...:way:


Put a tube or a cage on every one, simply cannot afford to lose those seedlings. I like the big root plug, nice and colorful! Anyone in zone 3 who would like to try an alternative to white or red oak should give these a try.

Dbltree: What kind of growth have you had on your bur-gambels, and thanks for the tip on that!

dbltree
09-19-2010, 02:49 PM
Put a tube or a cage on every one, simply cannot afford to lose those seedlings. I like the big root plug, nice and colorful! Anyone in zone 3 who would like to try an alternative to white or red oak should give these a try.

Dbltree: What kind of growth have you had on your bur-gambels, and thanks for the tip on that!

They vary of course but some in tubes are 2-3' high already but we have some DCO's that are poking out the top of the tube too! :way:

dbltree
09-20-2010, 05:11 PM
Cheeze Whiz! These Dwarf Chinkapin Oaks are growing like mad!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Tree%20Tubes%20and%20protectors/IMG_0010.jpg

I love the deep rich healthy color of the leaves on trees growing in these tubes! DCO's are capable of producing acorns in as little as 2-3 years

From Advantage Forestry...

The dwarf chinkapin oak, Quercus prinoides, produces acorns at 2-3 years old. It is native to most of the eastern half of the United States but grows as far west as Nebraska and as far north as New York state. Acorns can form on trees that are only 2 to 3 feet tall. Deer and turkey love the acorns, as they are low in bitter tannins. The dwarf chinkapin is a white oak and has a beautiful fall color that is often red to blaze orange. It only grows to about 15 feet in height. It does well in full sun to part shade and tolerates alkaline soils well. In many states it is rare.

Chinkapin oak, Quercus muelenbergii, is a full size white oak. It also produces acorns at an early age, about 5 years old, and when it gets older it often produces a bumper crop. It is native to the southern and northern United States. It grows well on poor, rocky soils and limestone outcroppings but also performs well in rich bottomlands. When mature, it has a scaly attractive bark with a rounded canopy. I’ve heard from many hunters that its acorns are a favorite of the white tail deer.

From True Nature Farms:

Dwarf Chinkapin Oak, Quercus prinoides (white oak
group)

This is a shrub or small tree of the eastern USA that
often forms thickets. Prolific and dependable annual
producer of acorns prized by wildlife. Tolerates poor
soils well and has a nice deep red fall color on our
soils here. These are grown from seed collected in
central Iowa. Zone 4.

From Oikos Tree Crops

Dwarf Chinkapin Oak — Quercus prinoides
ECOS Rare Native Shrub Oak
Dwarf Chinkapin is an obscure oak found in scattered populations throughout the Midwest and Northeast. It is the only oak in this area that produces runners. It is not uncommon to see small 3-4 ft. trees loaded with acorns. Trees in our orchard have fruited when 2 ft. tall. Slow growing, but extremely drought tolerant. Our seed trees were produced using wild collected seed from Nebraska found in a wide open windswept area-perfect for dwarf chinkapin oak. Acorns ripen in August and sprout quickly. Because they ripen in clusters at the end of the branches birds take note and they often fly off with the crop. Especially attractive to turkey. Height from 6-15 ft. tall with equal width. Often multi-trunked. Non-hybrid true to type seedlings.

The tree pictured came from Oikos Tree Crops in MI and I think it's important to buy stock that will be adapted and hardy to the area they'll be planted in. Advantage is in Alabama and it's not clear yet how that stock will do in northern areas. Oikos is using stock from Nebraska and True Nature is using stock from northern Iowa so those are things to consider when ordering DCO seedlings or acorns.

Advantage Forestry (http://www.advantageforestry.net/hunteroaks.htm)

True Nature Farms (http://truenaturefarm.com/treecatalog10.html)

Oikos Tree Crops (http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/product.asp?numRecordPosition=6&P_ID=416&strPageHistory=cat&strKeywords=&SearchFor=&PT_ID=69)

Several friends have sent me DCO acorns from several different states so eventually I hope to have some great genetic diversity on my farm and perhaps across SE Iowa someday... :way:

dark_viper42
09-21-2010, 10:01 AM
Do I remember reading that you guys won't plant your acorns in rootmakers this time of the year?

letemgrow
09-21-2010, 10:05 AM
Do I remember reading that you guys won't plant your acorns in rootmakers this time of the year?


Nope cause they have to be protected all winter long or the roots will die with the severe winters. If you can keep them protected, then go for it, but that would be a pile of work. They go in rootmakers the following spring after being stored in the fridge all winter in damp peat.

dark_viper42
09-21-2010, 10:53 AM
Nope cause they have to be protected all winter long or the roots will die with the severe winters. If you can keep them protected, then go for it, but that would be a pile of work. They go in rootmakers the following spring after being stored in the fridge all winter in damp peat.

How long do they actually stay in the rootmakers? I was planning on putting the acorns in the trays and leaving them in my basement in front of a south facing window until spring when I plant them on the farm...

dbltree
09-21-2010, 11:40 AM
How long do they actually stay in the rootmakers? I was planning on putting the acorns in the trays and leaving them in my basement in front of a south facing window until spring when I plant them on the farm...

I started mine in March, moved them outside in April and after that planting is optional at any time. I planted some every month from May through September...:way:

dark_viper42
09-21-2010, 11:58 AM
I started mine in March, moved them outside in April and after that planting is optional at any time. I planted some every month from May through September...:way:

Why do you choose to start them in March instead of the fall for white oaks?

dbltree
09-21-2010, 01:26 PM
Because they need to be outside in the wind to develop strong trunks or else it requires the use of fans to imitate mother nature.

White oaks do not grow in the fall...they merely germinate and then cold weather "stores" them until spring.

A fridge imitates the same thing...;)

letemgrow
09-21-2010, 02:37 PM
How long do they actually stay in the rootmakers? I was planning on putting the acorns in the trays and leaving them in my basement in front of a south facing window until spring when I plant them on the farm...


I would say a few months is usually how long they will last in the trays. It is much easier to just wait till spring and plant them in rootmakers then IMO. Just make sure you protect them from the squirrels they can find them in one day and make quick work of even 100.

huntdoc
09-23-2010, 10:03 AM
Dumb question from a beginner, but the polyethylene bags for storage, just a ziploc or something fancier than that?

Hardwood11
09-23-2010, 01:18 PM
I was told a ziploc will work, punch a couple of small holes in the bag.

dbltree
09-23-2010, 02:55 PM
I was told a ziploc will work, punch a couple of small holes in the bag.

Yep...that's all I used and I didn't even punch holes in them although that might be best. I found that one has to be careful to get just enough water in the peat moss to keep it moist but not soaked. To little and they will mold so holes or not...keep an eye on them.

I've heard of some using brown paper bags but you don't want the acorns to dry out either...so moist, not wet or dry...;)

Hardwood11
09-23-2010, 04:05 PM
So far I have liked the looks and growth of the Bebbs Oak (hybrid). Beside Oikos and Morse. Does anyone know of a nursery that sells Bebbs oak?

Anyone else planted Bebbs? Results?

dbltree
09-23-2010, 04:10 PM
So far I have liked the looks and growth of the Bebbs Oak (hybrid). Beside Oikos and Morse. Does anyone know of a nursery that sells Bebbs oak?

Anyone else planted Bebbs? Results?

I have of course (not sure of one I haven't planted)..some are 10 years old and doing well and others are grew from acorns in Rootmakers this spring.

Not sure if any have produced yet or if there are other sources although surely there are...;)

letemgrow
09-26-2010, 11:09 AM
Here is a dwarf chinkapin planted in the spring of 09 from Oikos. It is about 3 feet tall now and I would not be surprised if it had acorns this coming year.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/DwarfChinkapinfromOikos.jpg


Also, the concordia oaks have big, very healthy looking leaves on them. They are about 30 yards from the apple orchard and dwarf chinkapins on well drained timber soils. They are looking far better there than the bottoms. They are about 6 inches to a foot tall in the bottom while they are about 3 feet on the upland soils.

That is for future reference for those getting concordia oaks ;)

Hardwood11
09-26-2010, 03:30 PM
Letemgrow: Do you plant any chinkapin oaks? Sounds like they produce acorns at a fairly young age.

letemgrow
09-26-2010, 05:21 PM
Letemgrow: Do you plant any chinkapin oaks? Sounds like they produce acorns at a fairly young age.


Planted some, but they flooded out on the creek bottom the year after planting with all the rains we have had the past 2 years. I am just going to buy 25 from the MDC this fall and plant 2-3 here and there and see where they do the best on my place...if at all since they were not present to start with. Chinkapin oaks are native to my county and found in a lot of places just not my farm. My farm only has white, bur and swamp white oaks, no post or chinkapin even tho both are found in the county within miles of my farm. Maybe it is just not the right types of soils or the other oaks out competed them, but only one way to find out if they will grow on my farm and IMO, they are the most sought after white oak acorns there are. :way:

dbltree
09-27-2010, 02:52 PM
Excellent link on acorns....

Collection and Storage of Acorns (http://www.nsl.fs.fed.us/collection%20and%20care%20of%20acorns.pdf)

letemgrow
09-28-2010, 09:13 AM
Well it looks like I will be getting a pound of dwarf chinkapin oak acorns from a northern source. I remember a few people wanted some so shoot me a pm and I will wait a week or two, see how many want some so I can split the goods. Of course a few will be staying with me :D

dbltree
09-28-2010, 12:28 PM
Well it looks like I will be getting a pound of dwarf chinkapin oak acorns from a northern source. I remember a few people wanted some so shoot me a pm and I will wait a week or two, see how many want some so I can split the goods. Of course a few will be staying with me :D

I'd take a couple if you can spare them Phil...;)

I float tested the acorns from Advantage Forestry and at first was disappointed because only about 30% sank to the bottom (normally a sign of healthy viable acorns)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/IMG_0006.jpg

I used a slotted spoon to scoop out the floaters and then sorted out the sinkers (the good acorns)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/IMG_0008.jpg

but I also noted in the link I previously posted that it's a good idea to let them soak for 24 hours to rehydrate them and after doing that a good share more then sank to the bottom. Out of a 100 acorns the ones floating in the glass are all that did not sink?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/IMG_0010.jpg

Peter from Advantage had this to say:

In this case they float because there is air between the shell and endosperm, not because the seed isn't viable. I stored some in my refrigerator last year with the radicals partially emerging and planted them in the spring and they did fine. Just store with a small amount of moisture and turn them over every now and then. Or if you can, go ahead and plant them in the ground or in pots. If you are not satisfied with the results I'll send you some more acorns or refund your money.

So I marked Ziploc bags with sinkers, sinkers after 24 hours and floaters and since they'll all be started in Rootmaker cells in March...we'll know exactly how this all plays out.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/IMG_0001.jpg

Acorns can be stored successfully in plain Ziploc but I like to add some peat moss to help make sure they stay moist since moisture retention is critical and Ken Asmus from Oikos tree crops recommended doing so last year...and following his directions his acorns germination and subsequent live plantings were nearly 100%.

So the bags are marked with type of acorn and if they floated or sank and then mixed with moist (not wet) peat moss

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/IMG_0002.jpg

Be sure to check your acorns periodically for moisture and check for mold problems through out the storage period... :way:

letemgrow
09-28-2010, 01:26 PM
Looks like some of those floaters are viable. The tap root looks good in them still, I figure the ones I were sent would have looked better had they not fallen out of the plastic bag and dried out in the mail carrier.

They are all in a plastic baggie, wrapped in a damp paper towel to rehydrate them and hopefully more germinate and are viable. Time will tell I guess :D

dark_viper42
09-29-2010, 11:37 AM
Anyone have experience with English or Swamp White Oak?

Pros and cons of each? Which will produce faster?

Hardwood11
09-29-2010, 11:43 AM
Anyone have experience with English or Swamp White Oak?

Pros and cons of each? Which will produce faster?


I have some experience with each. Bur x English tree produced acorns in about 7-8 years.

I know some swamp white oaks produce in less than 10 years, but I have not witnessed that personally. I think Dbltree has some swamp white oak/bur oaks hybrids that are producing acorns...

I like both the swamp white oak/bur oak hybrid and the bur/english hybrid, no real cons, nice trees, I would recommend that you plant both if you have room.

letemgrow
09-29-2010, 01:00 PM
Swamp white oaks produce acorns pretty quick for a pure species.

dbltree
09-29-2010, 08:16 PM
Swamp white oaks produce acorns pretty quick for a pure species.

I agree...I have lots of young Bur-X-English but the English oak is not native and so far the first tree to produce at 10 years was a Swamp White oak hybrid....:way:

Hardwood11
09-30-2010, 08:32 AM
I agree...I have lots of young Bur-X-English but the English oak is not native and so far the first tree to produce at 10 years was a Swamp White oak hybrid....:way:


The swamp white oak/ bur oak hybrid is also a good all around tree as I have found that it does not need to have wet soils to survive. So far from my experience...It seems to do well on lighter soils as well as wet soils. Grows fast, should produces acorns early. I think it will be a good choice for planting oaks in most states.

huntdoc
09-30-2010, 10:15 AM
My family thinks I am crazy, acorns and bags of peat on kitchen table!! My daughter picked up a few at a city park where she had a cross country meet and they look like huge swamp white oak. All of them sank so they got their own bag and went in the frig.

Couple questions: Is there any point in keeping an acorn with a hole, indicating something got in there even if it sinks? I had one little grub came out in the water after couple hours. Am I supposed to poke some small holes in the bags as well? How "damp" should it be in the bag?

I don't even own land but this seems to be turning into a project with my daughter and it costs very little so I figured nothing lost for the effort. We can plant the trees where we hunt and maybe keep one for home!

letemgrow
09-30-2010, 10:53 AM
My family thinks I am crazy, acorns and bags of peat on kitchen table!! My daughter picked up a few at a city park where she had a cross country meet and they look like huge swamp white oak. All of them sank so they got their own bag and went in the frig.

Couple questions: Is there any point in keeping an acorn with a hole, indicating something got in there even if it sinks? I had one little grub came out in the water after couple hours. Am I supposed to poke some small holes in the bags as well? How "damp" should it be in the bag?

I don't even own land but this seems to be turning into a project with my daughter and it costs very little so I figured nothing lost for the effort. We can plant the trees where we hunt and maybe keep one for home!


The acorns can still germinate if the worm was inside. Just depends on where the worm ate in the acorn. I just keep the peat damp but not where it you can ring water out while pressing it.

I poke holes in the bag and check them every so often to make sure they are not getting moldy at all. You can also plant them out this fall and tube them to try part as a fall planting and part as a spring planting.

Hardwood11
10-09-2010, 10:24 AM
I am putting together a plan for tree planting next spring. I would like a little advise:

Here are the oaks that I plan on planting- (south central Iowa)

Bottom ground---swamp white oak, swamp white/bur oak hybrid & Pin oak

Ridge ground---northern red oak, bur oak, bur/english hybrid oak and some white oak.

I will mix and match a few pin oaks and swamp bur oaks on the ridge ground as well.

Does anyone see any changes or additions? Thanks.

letemgrow
10-09-2010, 08:51 PM
I would go light on the english/hybrids personally. Swamp white oaks do as well on the upland soils as bottomland soils on my place...they are everywhere so they must be great acorn producers or browsed much less than other oaks. Pin oaks do well on upland soils also and I would add a few black oaks in there on the ridges as they are very consistent acorn producers and deer do feed on them..at least on my place.

Those swamp/bur hybrids should do well on the upland or bottomland soils, but there is only one way to find out :D

dbltree
10-09-2010, 10:06 PM
Might add a few bur x gambels just for fun, they do well at my place anyway :way:

letemgrow
10-09-2010, 10:14 PM
Might add a few bur x gambels just for fun, they do well at my place anyway :way:

It sounds like a very interesting hybrid, you may just talk me into a few of them with some pics. :way:

Hardwood11
10-10-2010, 09:15 AM
Might add a few bur x gambels just for fun, they do well at my place anyway :way:

Ah yes, I forgot about the bur/gambel hybrid. I planted several from the Idaho Nursery here in MN. They are nice plugs, easy to plant. I will have to try some in Iowa. (Last time I checked is they were low on numbers of bur x gambel oak, so they may not have any for next spring.)

Any other nurseries that sell this hybrid (besides Oikos and Morse)?

dbltree
10-10-2010, 04:28 PM
Any other nurseries that sell this hybrid (besides Oikos and Morse)? Here's a few more sources with varying seedling size, minimum quantity and prices...:way:

Lawyer Nursery (http://www.lawyernursery.com/productinfo.aspx?productSpecies=Quercus%20macrocar pa%20x%20gambelli&categoryid=4)

McKeone Nursery (http://www.mckeonenursery.com/nut_trees)

UI Nursery (http://seedlings.uidaho.com/Store/DrawProducts.aspx?Action=GetDetails&ProductID=188&ParentID=&PageID=46&CategoryID=1)


Burgambel oak- (quercus macrocarpa x gambelli)
Bur oak- gambel oak cross reportedly produces low tannin acorns at 3-5 years of age.

OHIOshedder
10-13-2010, 06:41 PM
I'm looking for some help with oak tree identification:

1) Subject #1 has long, relatively oval shaped leaves with jagged edges similar to chinkapin, but each jagged point on the leaf has a barb like a thorn. The acorn caps are hairy like a bur oak, but the cap is much smaller and only covers the very top of the acorn unlike a bur oak. I'm torn between swamp white and chinkapin, but I don"t think either have hairy caps.

2) Subject #2 has typical red oak leaves that are pointy (not rounded lobes like a white oak). I'm pretty sure its a pin oak, but the acorns are medium size (at least 2-3x bigger than the typical tiny pin oak acorn). The acorns are orangish colored with black vertical stripes. The acorn size is probably between 1/2-3/4" diameter. I'm used to seeing pin oaks a hair over 1/4" diameter, but don't know of any other acorn that would be orangish with black stripes.

Any help?

OHIOshedder
10-13-2010, 07:14 PM
Just answered my own question.

Looks like #1 is a sawtooth- never seen one in person before...

I'm becoming more convinced #2 is a pin oak with giant acorns unless anyone else has an idea

dbltree
10-14-2010, 10:11 AM
Just answered my own question.

Looks like #1 is a sawtooth- never seen one in person before...

I'm becoming more convinced #2 is a pin oak with giant acorns unless anyone else has an idea

Easier to tell by the leaves and bark and I have pictures in both the Tree Planting and TSI threads to help you better ID most oaks.

Shingle oaks are very much like sawtooths but by the acorn description I suspect sawtooths.

letemgrow
10-14-2010, 07:10 PM
2) Subject #2 has typical red oak leaves that are pointy (not rounded lobes like a white oak). I'm pretty sure its a pin oak, but the acorns are medium size (at least 2-3x bigger than the typical tiny pin oak acorn). The acorns are orangish colored with black vertical stripes. The acorn size is probably between 1/2-3/4" diameter. I'm used to seeing pin oaks a hair over 1/4" diameter, but don't know of any other acorn that would be orangish with black stripes.

Any help?

I believe you have Cherrybark oaks in certain parts of Ohio, they have the striped acorns too so that may be an option for ya to check out. If the leaves for sure look like a pin oak, some black oaks have that same leaf structure too.

dbltree
10-15-2010, 05:39 PM
Finally! My sawtooths are starting to drop some acorns...after 15 years! :way:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/SawtoothAcorns1.jpg

I happened to notice the "feathery" acorn cap still hanging in the trees

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/SawtoothAcorns2.jpg

While the sawtooths can bear at 7-10 years, they took much longer then that here in Iowa compared to the white swamp oak hybrids that produced in less then 10 years.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/SawtoothAcorns3.jpg

The sawtooths grew faster then the hybrids and seemed to withstand the yearly onslaught by "killer" bucks better as well. Hormone charged bucks seem to find the scaly bark of the white swamp oak and bur-x-gambel oaks more attractive which of course didn't help growth any but here's a shot of the still green sawtooths towering over the other oaks

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IMG_0060.jpg

I suspect that the low tannin sweet acorns the white oak hybrids drop will be far more attractive then those of the sawtooths but...time will tell.... ;)

Hardwood11
10-16-2010, 06:49 AM
Dbltree: The sawtooths finally produced. I guess it is patience and then some!

I talked to a MN DNR forester yesterday and he gave me some typical time frames on when oaks first produce acorns in MN...or course that could very in Iowa or other states. Here is what he told me...

Northern Pin Oak- 10-15 years
Bur Oak 10-18 years
Red Oak 10-15 years
Swamp White Oak- most often right around 10 years

He really didn't have much background on hybrids. He did say that every so often he'll see exceptional trees that will produce young, and then he will see trees that have not been managed that are 20 years or older and they still do not produce acorns...it was interesting.

dbltree
10-16-2010, 10:56 AM
Northern Pin Oak- 10-15 years
Bur Oak 10-18 years
Red Oak 10-15 years
Swamp White Oak- most often right around 10 years

I would agree with that and the swamp white oak hybrids are some of the first to bear acorns although the Dwarf Chinkapins and bur-x-gambel hybrids can sometimes bear in 3-4 years under ideal conditions. :way:

DH1
10-18-2010, 05:37 PM
There has been some recent excitement about sawtooth oak since it is capable of acorns in five years, with annual crops. When planting oak solely for acorn production plant them in the open so that they will have light from all directions. Unfortunately they will never have any timber value due to the branching. Where you have an existing stand, thinning would be beneficial.


http://www.coldstreamfarm.net/t-faq.aspx

I only planted my sawtooth oaks 2 seasons ago, was hoping to see acorns sooner but looks like it will be later...

DH1
10-18-2010, 06:01 PM
oaks or apples?

2 years ago was the first time I tried planting oak and hazelnut seedlings using tree tubes (5 foot vented orange ones from Plantra). 1st year lost a few, but over all had pretty good success, I didn't keep records, but I'd say around 80% sucess compared to in the past 0% without the tubes. Anything that made it through the summer drought the deer chowed down before the next spring (not the most cost effective way to feed the deer). But this summer it seemed like almost half of what I had just died out. Not sure if they fried out early in the year (April was dry by us, May made up for it) or if the time released fertilizer packet put in by each seedling burned-out the roots.

I was thinking of trying some of these hybrid oaks next year that you've been mentioning, but now I'm thinking maybe I should just put in a dozen apple trees, maybe dwarfs, cage them and use smaller tubes (3-4 foot). I'd think I'd see apples in less than 5 years and it seems like many of these oaks end up not prodcing until 7-10 years out, I don't mind planning for the future, but I'm down to 40% of what I started with.

- Is the feed value that much difference between oaks and apples?
- Generally I can only take on limited projects due to the distance from where I live to the planting site, would oaks or apples normally have a higher chance for suceess over the other?
- What reasons would you prefer one over the other?

letemgrow
10-18-2010, 06:05 PM
Were the trees planted on their ideal site DH1? Sometimes mother nature tells us when things are not planted correctly. Also, are they proven winter hardy for your area? There could be lots of issues really on why some died out, but if 40 out of 100 make it, you have the seeds started for the next generation.

I would for sure plant some apples, but 4 foot tall tubes will not be enough if you have any deer I doubt. They browse apples very very hard.

dbltree
10-18-2010, 09:28 PM
I should just put in a dozen apple trees, maybe dwarfs, cage them and use smaller tubes (3-4 foot).

Do NOT tube apple trees! Cage them yes...but do not tube them!

Tube hybrid oaks or DCO's and you should have some producing in 8 years but just cage apples and you should have apples in 4 years....:way:

DH1
10-20-2010, 06:04 PM
Oaks or Apples:

- Sawtooth Oak came from Cold Stream Farms, others from County Soil Conservation District
- Going through those tubes (I used mats too) in the late spring sure was an adventure; found a dead bird in one, a mouse attacked me (sort of, when it jumped out of one), some loaded down with ants and a few with hornets nesting in them...can't be sleeping on that job.

- thanks for the guidance on the oaks and apples, I have to admit after looking at dbltree's recent post on the Tree Planting thread, I'm back to thinking about putting in some of both. Nice CRP information and very nice wind breaks/road screens.

dbltree
10-20-2010, 08:23 PM
some of both

Now your talkin'! :way:

Remember...our goal is to hold whitetails on our property year around, to adapt them to living on our place and not leaving and hoping they will return.

The best way to do that is to have diversified cover and food sources and having apple trees drop apples from July until December and oaks from Sept thru late October is a perfect way to help accomplish our goals.

That means you not only need apples and oaks but you need a wide array of varieties of each so don't plant only one variety of apple or oak...plant a few of many different varieties and species.

Often our budgets don't allow everything at once but we can plant a few apple trees and a few oaks each year and before you know it you have an awesome habitat program going on....:way:

dark_viper42
10-21-2010, 11:39 AM
Is there a rule of thump you guys use for how long to keep tree tubes on your trees as they grow?

letemgrow
10-21-2010, 05:22 PM
Is there a rule of thump you guys use for how long to keep tree tubes on your trees as they grow?


I keep them in tree tubes through the year they emerge out of the top, then they get poultry fencing or some woven wire I have laying around to keep the deer from browsing them. Basically they are in the tubes for about 2 years for me.

huntdoc
11-03-2010, 08:38 AM
So bags of acorns labeled in the frig, moistened them a little more couple weeks ago. DO I forget about them for 3-4 months now or what kind of upkeep should I do for them? If I am disturbing them when I get them out to check will it mess anything up? Planning to order some rootmaker pots etc once hunting season slows down.

letemgrow
11-03-2010, 09:05 AM
So bags of acorns labeled in the frig, moistened them a little more couple weeks ago. DO I forget about them for 3-4 months now or what kind of upkeep should I do for them? If I am disturbing them when I get them out to check will it mess anything up? Planning to order some rootmaker pots etc once hunting season slows down.


Just check them once a week to make sure they are not molding. Did you use peat moss? It blocks mold from forming and is why I use it.

dbltree
11-03-2010, 09:31 AM
Just check them once a week to make sure they are not molding. Did you use peat moss? It blocks mold from forming and is why I use it.

I agree! Don't just forget about them....check on them every now an then just to be safe...:way:

huntdoc
11-03-2010, 09:57 AM
I used the same Miracle grow potting stuff Dbltree showed in a picture which is mostly peat I think. In-laws are going to freak out when they see bags of dirt in the spare frig on their next visit!

DH1
11-11-2010, 12:58 PM
Bur/gambel's from Unv Idaho Nursery, looks like I missed out on those for next year (spring anyways), I would have liked to give those little plugs a shot over bareroot stock.

http://seedlings.uidaho.com/

I like the root pruning that Kelly Tree farm does, although their Swamp Bur hybrid is still bare root stock, sounds like many folks here have had good results with this hybrid in general fast grower, tolerates many soil types. Any differences in higher survival or quicker growth noticed from there stock using the root pruning?

http://www.kellytreefarm.com/

DH1
11-11-2010, 01:09 PM
On a different note:

Couple questions on protecting Oak and Apple trees from deer browsing and buck thrashing... I have a few staggler trees 2 year old seedlings) to protect in the coming weeks. Plan to use some chicken wire, what hieght would be best for oak? and what hieght for apples?

I've heard that once the trees get to about 6 feet deer leave them alone from browsing but then they'd be just about the right size for rubs or whatever is going through a buck's minds at the time.

Next year I'll be recycling tubes, with a little help from Kelly or Morse nursery, from some 2 year old trees and I'll be putting some fence around those as well.

dbltree
11-11-2010, 08:06 PM
On a different note:

Couple questions on protecting Oak and Apple trees from deer browsing and buck thrashing... I have a few staggler trees 2 year old seedlings) to protect in the coming weeks. Plan to use some chicken wire, what hieght would be best for oak? and what hieght for apples?

I've heard that once the trees get to about 6 feet deer leave them alone from browsing but then they'd be just about the right size for rubs or whatever is going through a buck's minds at the time.

Next year I'll be recycling tubes, with a little help from Kelly or Morse nursery, from some 2 year old trees and I'll be putting some fence around those as well.

I like to have at least 4' high fencing and with apples I lift it up on posts to protect against browsing...;)

Hardwood11
11-11-2010, 08:43 PM
DH!: I will sell you my 25 bur gambels that I reserved from the Idaho Nursery for ?


Just kidding! They do sell out fast.

dbltree
11-12-2010, 08:16 AM
DH!: I will sell you my 25 bur gambels that I reserved from the Idaho Nursery for ?


Just kidding! They do sell out fast.

Oikos Tree crops has them for as low as $1.20 a piece (link on first page) and they perform equally as well as the Idaho trees...:way:

Hardwood11
11-13-2010, 12:00 PM
Oikos Tree crops has them for as low as $1.20 a piece (link on first page) and they perform equally as well as the Idaho trees...:way:

dbltree: The Bur Gambels from Oikos are as nice as the Idaho trees? same size?

dbltree
11-13-2010, 04:57 PM
dbltree: The Bur Gambels from Oikos are as nice as the Idaho trees? same size?

They are in little paper pots and don't have quite as nice of root systems but the seedling itself is around the same size.

Don't get me wrong, I would prefer the Idaho seedlings simply for ease of planting but if they are out...Oikos is doggone close.

At the end of the growing season I really can't tell the difference...;)

dbltree
11-14-2010, 08:30 AM
Here are some pics of Oikos Tree Crops seedlings....

These are Dwarf Chinkapin Oaks

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/PlantableTubes.jpg

If you plant these and tube them it's no problem but if they are unprotected it might be better to remove the pot. I have had curious critters pull the whole seedling out to chew on the paper pot!?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/HeelinginaTrench.jpg

This is an Idaho seedling...same size but just has a nice compact root system that is also easily planted

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/IdahoNurserySeedling.jpg

Not enough difference to overlook Oikos as a source of BurXGambel hybrids if Idaho is out....:way:

DH1
11-15-2010, 08:22 AM
dbltree,
thanks for the info on the chicken wire and Oikos...

When it comes time to plant these little pots and plugs, some of the nursuries say not to use a tree bar, but to dig out a hole.
I planted larger bare root stock (18-36 inches) and I've spent more time putting plants in the ground by going up in size.

In your experience about how many inches around and under do you try to work around the plug and do you try to loosen the soil further outside that area as well?

I'm not looking to take short-cuts, just want to make it work but, nice to be able to put more in the ground if not doing extras.

DH1
11-15-2010, 08:30 AM
Hardwood11,
Well my hunting property is in MI, but I actually live in Minnesota, so you never know, one of these days we might end up splitting an order from one of the other places, I think Idaho's minimum order was like 5 trees, so no problems their.

dbltree
11-15-2010, 09:01 PM
In your experience about how many inches around and under do you try to work around the plug and do you try to loosen the soil further outside that area as well?

Actually we planted many of them with a tractor mounted tree planter but we have hand planted using both a tree spud and shovel with no real extra care or effort to "dig" a hole.

All the trees have done real well with very low mortality but perhaps they might do even better if you dug a small hole? :confused:

DH1
11-16-2010, 08:19 AM
thanks dbltree,

Next week I'll be doing some planning for next spring. Probably have my hands full with some of the edges that I want to fill in with hybrid Oak seedlings, but I have 2-3 spots about an acre each that might be good to try thinning with some hinging and then put in Oak seedlings in those spots too. I'm pretty sure it's mostly maples some junk trees. I'll try to track down a forester but it's seems like a tough chioce to drop those older trees and not sell them for fire wood.

letemgrow
11-17-2010, 11:33 AM
I went ahead and got 25 allegheny chinquapin seedlings from Reeseville Ridge (WI) for a buck a pop. It will be interesting to see how well they do. Also, some were planted as sprouted seeds next to the seedlings. Nothing tastes sweeter than a chinquapin so they should be a stellar draw if they do well in my area. Now if I could only find my camera, I would have some pics, it is MIA and quite possibly a casualty out on the farm somewhere from all the planting. :D

dark_viper42
11-30-2010, 11:53 AM
I was checking my acorns in the fridge the other day and noticed that a couple sawtooths had germinated. Looking forward to next spring already! :drink2:

letemgrow
11-30-2010, 12:19 PM
I was checking my acorns in the fridge the other day and noticed that a couple sawtooths had germinated. Looking forward to next spring already! :drink2:

Be careful cause it can be addicting!! :way:

dark_viper42
11-30-2010, 01:18 PM
Be careful cause it can be addicting!! :way:


SHHHH!!!! Don't tell my wife! :rolleyes:

dbltree
12-01-2010, 04:09 PM
SHHHH!!!! Don't tell my wife! :rolleyes:

Lol! Too late for Phil and I...it's a wonder our wives haven't called for an "intervention"...:D

Hardwood11
12-22-2010, 06:21 PM
The bur x swamp white oak hybrid supposedly grows on any soil, according to a nursery owner. I have some planted on sandy soil and good loam soil and they are doing well so far (but we have had ample amounts of rain). Anyone have any bur/swamp white hybrids that are growing fast and/or producing acorns on medium to poor soils?

Thanks.

dbltree
12-23-2010, 10:45 AM
The bur x swamp white oak hybrid supposedly grows on any soil, according to a nursery owner. I have some planted on sandy soil and good loam soil and they are doing well so far (but we have had ample amounts of rain). Anyone have any bur/swamp white hybrids that are growing fast and/or producing acorns on medium to poor soils?

Thanks.

My "poor" soils are all clay subsoils but poor nonetheless and all of my hybrids and especially the bur/SWO hybrids thrive. No sandy soils around here though...;)

huntdoc
01-12-2011, 09:20 AM
I have been checking every few weeks and bags appear to still have moist soil, no mold that I can tell. How long before I need to start potting the acorns?

letemgrow
01-12-2011, 10:15 AM
I pot them in late March or so...whenever it starts to warm up.

dbltree
01-12-2011, 06:23 PM
I pot them in late March or so...whenever it starts to warm up.

I started mine indoors in early March just because that was an option for me but some folks wait til early April.

Looking forward to getting mine started again...pretty cool watching those babies pop up! :)

letemgrow
01-12-2011, 06:46 PM
I started mine indoors in early March just because that was an option for me but some folks wait til early April.

Looking forward to getting mine started again...pretty cool watching those babies pop up! :)

It can be addicting thats for sure!! :way:

OHIOshedder
01-31-2011, 08:54 PM
Exciting news, my first acorns are starting to sprout. I collected almost every available member of the white oak family this past fall. I refrigerated most for 1-2 months then planted a few of each in containers (tallest styrofoam coffee cups I could find). I've been watering them 1x week and went to check tonight and 2 of my sawtooths have sprouted. Now trying to figure out what to do since we have several inches of snow and several weeks of sub freezing temps til spring. I'm going to place them in a south facing window sill, but got a feeling they need more sunlight....

letemgrow
02-03-2011, 11:40 AM
Exciting news, my first acorns are starting to sprout. I collected almost every available member of the white oak family this past fall. I refrigerated most for 1-2 months then planted a few of each in containers (tallest styrofoam coffee cups I could find). I've been watering them 1x week and went to check tonight and 2 of my sawtooths have sprouted. Now trying to figure out what to do since we have several inches of snow and several weeks of sub freezing temps til spring. I'm going to place them in a south facing window sill, but got a feeling they need more sunlight....


I have a feeling by May or whenever its warm enough to plant them outsdie, those roots will have circled big time in the cups. Your best bet is to pull out the rootball and cut the circled roots.

sethgade280
02-03-2011, 11:47 AM
I planted some white acorns i picked up this fall into pots. I watered them all fall and then forgot to grab them when it snowed. they are still outside. Will they still grow this year? I figuared in nature they sit outside buried in the snow and frigid temps so they would be alright. I guess i should have brought them inside for the winter, or will i be fine yet??

letemgrow
02-03-2011, 12:05 PM
I planted some white acorns i picked up this fall into pots. I watered them all fall and then forgot to grab them when it snowed. they are still outside. Will they still grow this year? I figuared in nature they sit outside buried in the snow and frigid temps so they would be alright. I guess i should have brought them inside for the winter, or will i be fine yet??


I bet they are toast, I have yet to get an acorn to grow left out in a pot all winter, being planted in the ground is not quite the same when it comes to temp. The pot freezes much harder than the ground. Keep us posted tho. :way:

sethgade280
02-03-2011, 12:23 PM
Thats what i fig'rd. Thanks for the input.

OHIOshedder
02-03-2011, 07:46 PM
I have a feeling by May or whenever its warm enough to plant them outsdie, those roots will have circled big time in the cups. Your best bet is to pull out the rootball and cut the circled roots.



Are you saying to pull them now and trim root, or let the rootball continue to grow over the next 3+months and then trim and plant. If I trim the young root now, won't they die? I might be able to gather enough topsoil to plant a few of them in 4-5 gallon buckets, but not sure how much indoor light I can provide for such big indoor pots.

letemgrow
02-04-2011, 09:07 AM
Are you saying to pull them now and trim root, or let the rootball continue to grow over the next 3+months and then trim and plant. If I trim the young root now, won't they die? I might be able to gather enough topsoil to plant a few of them in 4-5 gallon buckets, but not sure how much indoor light I can provide for such big indoor pots.

I would trim them soon, oaks have big taproots so they need to be trimmed. If the rootball pulls up easily and the soil stays attached, its time to prune the roots to keep them from circling and killing the tree later on in life. Some pics of the rootball sure would help.

If the seedling is 4 inches tall, you can guarantee it has at least that much taproot to go with it....if not more.

OHIOshedder
02-04-2011, 02:48 PM
Thanks for the tip. My english oaks and my first gamble oak started to sprout overnight too. I'm about to have oak seedlings coming out my ears, wish I would have left them in the fridge longer before trying to get a head start on planting.

letemgrow
02-04-2011, 05:08 PM
Thanks for the tip. My english oaks and my first gamble oak started to sprout overnight too. I'm about to have oak seedlings coming out my ears, wish I would have left them in the fridge longer before trying to get a head start on planting.


I learned the hard way too, now all mine are still left in the fridge and will be till I can plant them out in trays or their permanent location. :way:

If you have the right setup, it can be fairly easy to grow inside. Start with some rootmaker trays or other air root pruning trays and they will last quite a while there till you can plant them outside. Then you may have to get them acclimated to the outside before leaving them out full time.

huntdoc
02-06-2011, 04:04 PM
I am not seeing any roots or shoots from my acorns. Is there any testing I should do for viability before I plant? I did the sink test before I put them in the frig last fall. Getting ready to order pots and just worried I am not going to get any starts...

letemgrow
02-06-2011, 05:11 PM
I am not seeing any roots or shoots from my acorns. Is there any testing I should do for viability before I plant? I did the sink test before I put them in the frig last fall. Getting ready to order pots and just worried I am not going to get any starts...


Do they look like this at least?? The root radicle is starting to emerge on mine, but the cold temps in the fridge are keeping them at bay for the most part. These are northern red oak acorns that have started to germinate.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/NorthernRedOakAcorns.jpg

huntdoc
02-08-2011, 12:24 PM
I don't see any changes yet. I may get them all out to look and add a little more water. If they fail, I guess there is always next year! Just curious how many acorns you put back last fall?

letemgrow
02-08-2011, 02:13 PM
I don't see any changes yet. I may get them all out to look and add a little more water. If they fail, I guess there is always next year! Just curious how many acorns you put back last fall?


More than I can count :D

A few hundred probably of various species. All of them have the radicals starting to form which shows they are still viable. Here are some whitexbur oak acorns I got that are the same way.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/TacoBebbsOakAcorns.jpg

dbltree
02-08-2011, 02:36 PM
Just a reminder to check on your acorns in storage, makes sure there is no mold going on and the acorns are moist and not drying out.

Couple of red oak acorns that look alive and well

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/IMG_0004.jpg

These are just a few i picked up and tossed in the fridge as an afterthought...no peat moss or anything!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/IMG_0005.jpg

The white oak acorns are a mass of roots now!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/IMG_0008-1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/IMG_0007.jpg

This is a Dwarf Chinkapin

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/IMG_0006-1.jpg

I'll probably start these inside in mid March in the Rootmaker cells...whole lot less expensive then buying seedlings! :way:

letemgrow
02-08-2011, 02:39 PM
What temp is your fridge running at Paul?? My white oak acorns NEVER put out roots like that in the fridge, I store them in a bottom drawer that is just above freezing to right at freezing. It seems to keep everything alive and not growing.

dbltree
02-08-2011, 03:40 PM
Not sure Phil but plenty chilly? I wouldn't think a few degrees would matter much but perhaps?

Almost all of mine end up like that but they all grew so never really worried about it.;)

letemgrow
02-08-2011, 03:51 PM
Not sure Phil but plenty chilly? I wouldn't think a few degrees would matter much but perhaps?

Almost all of mine end up like that but they all grew so never really worried about it.;)


Never had any white oak acorns grow like that in my fridge :confused:

They are lucky to put on 2 inches of taproot by the time I pull them out in springtime....interesting.

huntdoc
02-10-2011, 09:59 AM
So I pulled them out last night after family went up to bed. Standing there in the kitchen with my hands in ziploc bags of potting soil getting fired up because at least a couple acorns from each bag had a small root poking out or the shell had cracked open and was looking healthy!! This will be added to the list that my wife just shakes her head and walks away, just like shed antlers. Guess I will have to go ahead and place order for the rootmaker pots! Silly addictions!!

Do you guys pot all of them or just the ones that are showing changes?

letemgrow
02-10-2011, 11:42 AM
Do you guys pot all of them or just the ones that are showing changes?

I pot the ones that have germinated, then leave the rest out of the fridge in damp peat when its time to plant and check them every few days and pot as they germinate till I have enough, then the rest go out to the squirrels.

dbltree
02-10-2011, 11:52 AM
I take the ones that haven't germinated and put them in a tray of soil and then move them to pots as they germinate. If they fail they eventually end up like Phils but it's surprising because some take 2 weeks or more to "wake up"

if you have gobs of acorns I wouldn't mess with them but when I have to pay for some I give them every opportunity...:)

huntdoc
02-10-2011, 01:30 PM
Was reading over things again and my wife is looking over my shoulder exclaims "he has the same countertop as us!" Dbltree, our wives apparently have similar tastes!! Appreciate the information fellas, and hope to contribute pictures as well. I can say that mold doesn't hurt too much as one acorn had white fuzz growing and it was sprouting a root. I plan to pot pretty much all of my acorns as I didn't collect all that many for my first attempt.

OHIOshedder
02-13-2011, 06:34 PM
This project has officially gotten out of control. Just got home from a week vacation and my potted sawtooth, english, gambel, and chestnut oaks that I refrigerated for a month or 2 then potted indoors are now sprouting everywhere. Everything that has not sprouted above ground level is getting removed from its pot and put back in the fridge for another 2 months. Some of the ones I just pulled have taproots that are nearly 8"-9" long....

While in southern FL this past week there were tons of white oak acorns everywhere. I'm pretty sure they are live oak and I picked up a bag full. I'm sure that oaks that grow in sandy soil in tropical southern climate will do well in my heavy clay soil of the frozen north.;-).......

dark_viper42
02-14-2011, 08:30 AM
What do you guys do as far as watering after you get them planted in the rootmakers?

Do you water before they even come up or do you wait? Approx how much water?

108 acorns went into rootmakers this weekend at my place.

90 DCO and 18 sawtooth oak


*I should have ordered more rootmakers!!!

OHIOshedder
02-14-2011, 06:07 PM
*I should have ordered more rootmakers!!!


I went to the grocery store and bought the largest (16 oz) coffee cups they had - got packs of 24 cups for $1/each. I packed each cup with Miracle Grow potting soil and poked a hole in the bottom for drainage. Placed the cups in a tray, moistened the soil and pushed 1 acorn into the soil in each cup. I put a layer of plastic wrap across the top of the cups to minimize drying and probably give them a small shot of water about once every 10 days or so if the soil looks like its starting to dry. Soil has stayed pretty moist that way and I probably don't need to water them every 15 days or so.

dbltree
02-14-2011, 08:34 PM
I keep the potting soil moist but not to wet even before germination although most will have already germinated in the fridge. Either way dry soil is not good! ;)

dark_viper42
02-15-2011, 08:48 AM
I keep the potting soil moist but not to wet even before germination although most will have already germinated in the fridge. Either way dry soil is not good! ;)


I only planted acorns that had germinated while in my fridge. The ones that haven't are still in there until I can work them into the rootmakers if some don't come up or die off.

I'm just concerned about them getting dry but I don't want to over water them.

letemgrow
02-16-2011, 08:59 AM
What do you guys do as far as watering after you get them planted in the rootmakers?

Do you water before they even come up or do you wait? Approx how much water?


The soil/potting mix should be moist, but not completely saturated. What I like to do is keep a one rootmaker with just soil so it can be my test dummy. I check it every day or two and see how much moisture is in it, then I know when I need to water the seedlings. As the seedlings fill up the rootmaker cell tho, that system no longer applies since they will suck up the moisture far faster than an empty cell with only potting soil.

Obviously hotter temps will increase watering, if its cool out, say highs of 60 as opposed to 80 that makes a big difference in the little cells.

IQDM
02-16-2011, 08:32 PM
Phil, do you buy and plant blight resistant chestnuts the same way you are doing your acorns? If so, where do you buy them? I have a small case of chestnut fever right now...:rolleyes:

dbltree
02-17-2011, 05:27 AM
Phil, do you buy and plant blight resistant chestnuts the same way you are doing your acorns? If so, where do you buy them? I have a small case of chestnut fever right now...:rolleyes:

I have bought some from Oikos Tree Crops but Phil is the expert on chestnuts so I'm curious about this question myself?

The ones I planted last year did awesome!! :way:

letemgrow
02-17-2011, 10:06 AM
Phil, do you buy and plant blight resistant chestnuts the same way you are doing your acorns? If so, where do you buy them? I have a small case of chestnut fever right now...:rolleyes:


I plant the 100% pure American Chestnuts the same way as the acorns, they get tubed, sprayed and planted an inch deep or so in the fall. A select few will be blight resistant, but most will not.

This is a american chestnut this past summer planted as a seed the fall of 09, it grew about 3 feet in one season.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/100_1492.jpg

letemgrow
02-17-2011, 10:20 AM
The last couple of years I have had about 50% germination on the chestnut seeds....figure the intense and relentless rains had something to do with that tho and it would have been better otherwise.

I donate 20 bucks to The American Chestnut Cooperators Foundation and request 10 seednuts for the donation, they usually arrive in October. Here is their website and if you go with the pure Americans, they will do the best wherever you have Northern Red Oaks growing (north or east facing coves that are well drained and mildly acidic).

http://www.accf-online.org/seednuts.htm

IQDM
02-17-2011, 08:16 PM
Exelent! thanks!... do you just plant pure American's Phil? or do you also plant hybrids?

letemgrow
02-18-2011, 07:33 AM
Exelent! thanks!... do you just plant pure American's Phil? or do you also plant hybrids?


With the ACCF, I can only plant 100% pure American chestnuts since they are breeding for resistance and keeping only american genes in the mix....so I cannot plant any hybrids with them.

I have never seen a hardwood grow like an American Chestnut, they can keep up with any junk tree out there. :way:

Here is a link to their breeding strategy:

http://www.accf-online.org/accf1.htm

Here is the Nathan Pease Tree, it showed full resistance to the blight and was 100% pure American:

http://www.accf-online.org/nathanblightold

letemgrow
02-20-2011, 03:41 PM
Forgot to add this initial photo of an American Chestnut just coming up from seed. I like to use shorter tubes to start with using seeds and then switch over to larger tubes or fencing after I see they have germinated. I have found that rodents really avoid open ground AND shorter tubes so they apparently don't feel that they have any overhead cover.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/Farm%20Trip%2005-10-10/100_1455.jpg

bryan
02-28-2011, 09:30 PM
I went ahead and got 25 allegheny chinquapin seedlings from Reeseville Ridge (WI) for a buck a pop. It will be interesting to see how well they do. Also, some were planted as sprouted seeds next to the seedlings. Nothing tastes sweeter than a chinquapin so they should be a stellar draw if they do well in my area. Now if I could only find my camera, I would have some pics, it is MIA and quite possibly a casualty out on the farm somewhere from all the planting. :D


Just wondering if you were happy with the chinquapin seedlings from Reeseville Ridge?

letemgrow
03-01-2011, 09:20 PM
Just wondering if you were happy with the chinquapin seedlings from Reeseville Ridge?


They were what was expected and what I was told would be showing up. The seedlings were very cheap too so time will tell how they work out.

bryan
03-02-2011, 05:48 PM
Good to here... Never heard of that nursery before and its only 30 mins from my house... Thanks for all of the info on this subject you guys sure know your oak trees!

letemgrow
03-02-2011, 07:12 PM
Good to here... Never heard of that nursery before and its only 30 mins from my house... Thanks for all of the info on this subject you guys sure know your oak trees!

Have placed a few orders from Reeseville Ridge and was pleased with everything I have received thus far. :way:

bowman
03-02-2011, 09:46 PM
Does the age of the tree make any difference as to how well the acorns will grow? I have friend with a 10-12 year old swamp white oak that has been producing a limited supply of acorns for the past couple of years. Will the acorns from the young tree grow as well as acorns from a mature oak?

huntdoc
03-03-2011, 07:15 AM
I have been doing this project with my daughter over the winter. A couple weeks ago we went ahead and planted a few of the acorns that were sprouting roots into the Rootmakers. They are sitting in front of a SW facing window. How long is typical before I will see growth above ground? I am a little worried she enjoys watering too much, so trying to let them go a little bit.

letemgrow
03-03-2011, 10:20 AM
Does the age of the tree make any difference as to how well the acorns will grow? I have friend with a 10-12 year old swamp white oak that has been producing a limited supply of acorns for the past couple of years. Will the acorns from the young tree grow as well as acorns from a mature oak?


They should, the bigger the acorn, the better it does overall some studies have found. It gets a jumpstart on the smaller acorn types.

bowman
03-03-2011, 01:07 PM
They should, the bigger the acorn, the better it does overall some studies have found. It gets a jumpstart on the smaller acorn types.

Sorry, I'm an idiot and didn't follow the reply.:o So........will the smaller acorns from the young swamp white oak tree grow OK or should I collect from a more mature swamp white oak tree. You might have to use small words for me to understand.:grin: (slam on me, not you!)

letemgrow
03-03-2011, 03:51 PM
Sorry, I'm an idiot and didn't follow the reply.:o So........will the smaller acorns from the young swamp white oak tree grow OK or should I collect from a more mature swamp white oak tree. You might have to use small words for me to understand.:grin: (slam on me, not you!)


They should grow just fine, collect them in mid September (at least for my area) and you should be good to go. :way:

bowman
03-03-2011, 04:37 PM
They should grow just fine, collect them in mid September (at least for my area) and you should be good to go. :way:

Thanks!:way:

letemgrow
03-03-2011, 05:42 PM
Thanks!:way:

What I meant earlier is the bigger acorns off the same tree will get a jump start as opposed to smaller sized acorns off the same tree. They just have more energy in the acorn to start with so that is what I would collect if I were you.

bowman
03-04-2011, 12:40 PM
What I meant earlier is the bigger acorns off the same tree will get a jump start as opposed to smaller sized acorns off the same tree. They just have more energy in the acorn to start with so that is what I would collect if I were you.

That makes sense, thanks again!;)

letemgrow
03-06-2011, 01:36 PM
Big difference in growth between the fall planted and rootmaker grown seedlings and I am curious as all get out how long term growth will compare but...I have an idea which one will win out... :way:

The relentless rains last year no doubt put a hurting on the direct seeded acorns...unless they were in well drained soils. Some of the DCO's I planted from acorns made it to 1.5 feet tall by fall, while others are maybe 4 inches tall. Many more were planted as acorns this fall (DCO's, NRO's, American Chestnuts etc) it will be interesting to see what the germiantion percentage is this year as opposed to last.

One this is for certain, the rootmakers take that out of the equation...come a monsoon or drought. :way:

huntdoc
03-07-2011, 08:34 PM
My daughter and I celebrated tonight. Three tiny sprouts are starting to show through the dirt. One each of three different varieties. Planted on 2/22. Thanks to you guys who provided all the knowledge!

http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=528&pictureid=6007

letemgrow
03-08-2011, 10:44 AM
My daughter and I celebrated tonight. Three tiny sprouts are starting to show through the dirt. One each of three different varieties. Planted on 2/22. Thanks to you guys who provided all the knowledge!

http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=528&pictureid=6007


Careful, it gets addicting. :grin:

dbltree
03-09-2011, 07:29 PM
I hope to get mine started next week! :way:

SDHunt24/7
03-10-2011, 09:42 PM
Question for the experts. I frigerated some red oaks I picked up last fall and plan to plant in cells. New to all of this so do I just plant the acorn in the potting soil or do I need to open the shell first if not sprouting. How deep do you place the acorn in the cells. As far as moving them outdoors once they take off, how warm does it need to stay at night? Also, if there is ice in the bags did they get too cold in the frig. My garage got a little cold lately due to the cold weather here in south Dakota.

dbltree
03-11-2011, 08:48 AM
Question for the experts. I frigerated some red oaks I picked up last fall and plan to plant in cells. New to all of this so do I just plant the acorn in the potting soil or do I need to open the shell first if not sprouting. How deep do you place the acorn in the cells. As far as moving them outdoors once they take off, how warm does it need to stay at night? Also, if there is ice in the bags did they get too cold in the frig. My garage got a little cold lately due to the cold weather here in south Dakota.

No need to do anything but plant them about an inch deep but you can place them in a tray of potting soil first and plant only the ones that sprout, into the RM cells.

I start moving them outdoors into the sun and wind asap when it stays well above freezing and I move them into the garage on nights when a frost is expected.

Once you get the acorns out they should germinate within a week or so but I doubt a little ice would have hurt them...after all they are exposed to plenty of it in the wild...;)

SDHunt24/7
03-11-2011, 06:11 PM
Sounds good I think I will get started this weekend. I will let you know if I have any success.

gahartman
03-13-2011, 04:12 PM
New to the forum and new to planting oaks. I am in need of some good information, so I am hoping you guys can help me out. I have read most of the previous posts about oak and tree plantings, and need some more information. Going to give you a little background about the ranch so hopefully you can help me out. My ranch is located in south central south dakota and has no oaks on or around it, so I figured I better get some going. The soil is not near the quality of Iowa soil and consits of clay, sandy mix. We do have some areas that are wet, but the majority gets dry in the summer. Looking at planting around 40 Dwarf Chinkapin and Burgambel. I am also going to plant 20 or so Bur Oaks, 30 Burenglish, and 20 Schuettes in the areas that do not drain as much. Wondering what you guys with more experience think these trees will do with the soil type, moisture, and location. I am also looking at either getting these trees from Morse Nursery or Oikos Nursery. Any thoughts or help would be great. Thanks in advance

Greg

dbltree
03-13-2011, 07:42 PM
Welcome to IW Greg! I think your making some great choices although you may eventually want to include some red oaks as well. I think all oaks should be fairly well adapted to your area. All of mine have come from Oikos or Idaho State nursery and they have performed very well.

You might send a note to Ken at Oikos and mention your climate and soils and ask for more advice from him as well. My soil is pretty poor and mostly red clay where I plant them and the trees do very well.

Consider tubing them and using weed control and they should do great :way:

gahartman
03-13-2011, 08:05 PM
Thanks for the reply dbltree. Would you recomend any certain types of red oaks, any certain hybrids. As far as weed control would you put weed mats done or just use herbicide. If herbicide what would you recomend. The trees wil all be tubed. Thanks

Greg

SDHunt24/7
03-13-2011, 09:21 PM
Thanks for the reply dbltree. Would you recomend any certain types of red oaks, any certain hybrids. As far as weed control would you put weed mats done or just use herbicide. If herbicide what would you recomend. The trees wil all be tubed. Thanks

Greg
Greg, I too just joined the forum and am establishing a piece of land near mills,NE. I grew up in Gregory and get back often to hunt with my dad. Maybe we can compare notes and learn together. We just started overhauling this piece of land last year with planting 600 trees and putting in around 10 acres of food plots. So far the food plots have been amazing for deer and turkey. Bryan

gahartman
03-13-2011, 09:42 PM
Bryan good to hear from another local guy. We are working on my Grandpa's(Sundquist) ranch north of Dallas. What kind of trees did you all put in last year? Did they survive and grow well? Have you started any oaks yet? We are planning on planting some shelterbelts through the NRCS office and then filling in other areas with some oaks. Any help would be great.

Greg

SDHunt24/7
03-13-2011, 10:10 PM
Bryan good to hear from another local guy. We are working on my Grandpa's(Sundquist) ranch north of Dallas. What kind of trees did you all put in last year? Did they survive and grow well? Have you started any oaks yet? We are planning on planting some shelterbelts through the NRCS office and then filling in other areas with some oaks. Any help would be great.

Greg
I planted red a nd white oaks, red cedar, blue spruce, ponderosa pine, crabapple, plum, and caragana for the shrub row in our shelter belt. The red crafts didn't fare too well, may have got some bad seedlings as this is a hardy tree usually. I would definitely tube the hardwood trees and maybe wire cage or use a repellent on the evergreens. We had a lot of deer problems. Also bury the tubes in the dirt or leave them up an inch or two to prevent mice from buy.ding nests in them and girdling the trees. The nrcs was a nice help too. This forum is great and will help you with any questions you may have. These guys have encountered just about everything. Good luck!

dbltree
03-13-2011, 11:36 PM
Thanks for the reply dbltree. Would you recomend any certain types of red oaks, any certain hybrids. As far as weed control would you put weed mats done or just use herbicide. If herbicide what would you recomend. The trees wil all be tubed. Thanks

Greg

I prefer herbicide...mice will burrow under weed mats and girdle seedlings. Check back on the front page of this thread for more details but I use Oust XP and simazine on oaks and conifers and Surflan and simazine on shrubs. Use prowl h20 if you have pigweed problems...:way:

letemgrow
03-14-2011, 11:06 AM
New to the forum and new to planting oaks. I am in need of some good information, so I am hoping you guys can help me out. I have read most of the previous posts about oak and tree plantings, and need some more information. Going to give you a little background about the ranch so hopefully you can help me out. My ranch is located in south central south dakota and has no oaks on or around it, so I figured I better get some going. The soil is not near the quality of Iowa soil and consits of clay, sandy mix. We do have some areas that are wet, but the majority gets dry in the summer. Looking at planting around 40 Dwarf Chinkapin and Burgambel. I am also going to plant 20 or so Bur Oaks, 30 Burenglish, and 20 Schuettes in the areas that do not drain as much. Wondering what you guys with more experience think these trees will do with the soil type, moisture, and location. I am also looking at either getting these trees from Morse Nursery or Oikos Nursery. Any thoughts or help would be great. Thanks in advance

Greg


Along with what Paul stated, I would plant some pin oaks and shingle oaks for the wet areas to compliment the white/hybrid oaks. The red oaks drop acorns more regularly than white oaks and they will also add diversity to your planting.

Also, I would only get the hybrids from those nurseries such as Oikos, Morse etc. Go to the state nurseries for the pin/shingle oaks if you do decide to plant them. The dwarf chinkapin oaks should do well with the well drained soils...may need to provide some type of moisture barrier the first year tho depending on how dry your soils actually get. Rodents will get in tree tubes and girdle stems, or whenever a bunch of thatch is left around seedlings so keep the area cleaned in a 4 foot circle around the seedlings and you should be good to go with tubes or fencing. I like to spray the areas 2-3 times the year before with gly so I am working with bare soil to start with and then spray gly with a residual the following year after planting to keep it that way.

Hardwood11
03-14-2011, 02:44 PM
New to the forum and new to planting oaks. I am in need of some good information, so I am hoping you guys can help me out. I have read most of the previous posts about oak and tree plantings, and need some more information. Going to give you a little background about the ranch so hopefully you can help me out. My ranch is located in south central south dakota and has no oaks on or around it, so I figured I better get some going. The soil is not near the quality of Iowa soil and consits of clay, sandy mix. We do have some areas that are wet, but the majority gets dry in the summer. Looking at planting around 40 Dwarf Chinkapin and Burgambel. I am also going to plant 20 or so Bur Oaks, 30 Burenglish, and 20 Schuettes in the areas that do not drain as much. Wondering what you guys with more experience think these trees will do with the soil type, moisture, and location. I am also looking at either getting these trees from Morse Nursery or Oikos Nursery. Any thoughts or help would be great. Thanks in advance

Greg

Greg: I live near the SD border in MN. I have tried nearly every oak, here is what I think will work in your area...

Bur Gambel Oak hybrid plugs from Univ of Idaho Nursery
Northern Pin Oak plugs from Itasca Greenhouse in MN
Bur Oak or Swamp White Oak from __________ nursery in Bismarck, ND I cannot think of the name right now, but they have good product.

I have ordered from all of these and the results have been above average. You will find that it is a struggle to plant oaks in that area, that is why you do not see many natives.

Personally I do not think red oaks will do well out there, but not sure, doesn't hurt to try.

Hardwood11
03-14-2011, 02:47 PM
Sorry, that nursery in North Dakota is Lincoln-Oakes. Very good trees.

letemgrow
03-14-2011, 03:13 PM
Sorry, that nursery in North Dakota is Lincoln-Oakes. Very good trees.

They do have good quality stock and swamp white oak would be another good option for that wetter area.

gahartman
03-14-2011, 08:49 PM
Thanks for all the great info. Doing the final touches on the plan. I will have to take some pics and let you guys know how this all goes. Thanks again. Any more info or comments welcome.

Greg

Hardwood11
03-15-2011, 10:57 AM
Greg: Are you from the Gregory area? I hunt pheasants around Gregory once in awhile, tons of pheasants, good deer in your area as well.

I would recommend, some taller Bur Oaks, they will do well in your area. Lincoln-Oakes has 3-4 footers. Otherwise, you can order the Bur Gambel from Idaho this fall, I think they are sold out right now, you will be impressed with that tree and it is very drought tolerant.

SDHunt24/7
03-15-2011, 06:39 PM
How wet does the soil need to be in the rootmaker cells with my acorns? Also how long should it roughly take to see something happening?

dbltree
03-15-2011, 08:02 PM
How wet does the soil need to be in the rootmaker cells with my acorns? Also how long should it roughly take to see something happening?

Moist and usually within a week...;)

letemgrow
03-15-2011, 09:51 PM
Trying out some of the these trays/cells this year, they are Accelerator growing trays. 32 cells per tray and thus far I like the system!!

letemgrow
03-16-2011, 11:25 AM
I forgot to spray around a few of my DCO seedlings this past summer/fall and the rodents ate them to the dirt in quick fashion. Here is what the seedling looked like last summer and just another reminder to keep the weeds/thatch away from the seedlings. ;)

They will be getting some fertilizer this year and a roundup/oust mixture to keep the ground clear around them.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Trees%20on%20the%20Farm/DwarfChinkapin.jpg

LoessHillsArcher
03-16-2011, 12:34 PM
Phil you had trouble with rodents even with the tubes on the seedlings?

letemgrow
03-16-2011, 01:37 PM
Phil you had trouble with rodents even with the tubes on the seedlings?


I do if there is thatch around the seedlings sometimes, if it is clean dirt in a 4 foot circle I never have a problem with rodents in the tubes. I literally had to feel for the nub at the base of where that DCO was cause there was nothing left in the tube!!!

huntdoc
03-17-2011, 03:09 PM
So I have an increasing number of sprouts showing up which is a relief, but now I need to get ready for next step. At most I may have 2 dozen trees to plant. I was planning to buy the Protex tubes as they seem to be favored by many of you, but do they sell them in such small numbers? Looks like everyone buys them by the 100's. I figured I would get electric fence posts from farm store to stake them.

letemgrow
03-17-2011, 03:12 PM
So I have an increasing number of sprouts showing up which is a relief, but now I need to get ready for next step. At most I may have 2 dozen trees to plant. I was planning to buy the Protex tubes as they seem to be favored by many of you, but do they sell them in such small numbers? Looks like everyone buys them by the 100's. I figured I would get electric fence posts from farm store to stake them.


Yeah they sell the protex tubes in small quantities, they just cost more that way and if you have the dough and plan on multiple plantings, might as well buy them all at once to get the savings.

By all means try some of the others out there if you are feeling frisky and report back to us on the results. :way:

SDHunt24/7
04-02-2011, 01:06 PM
I am starting to see some sprouts above the soil and out the bootom of the palnter cells. The 18 count cells I used are about 2 inches deep. Do I need to move the sprouted acorns into bigger cells now or can they stay in these small ones for a while yet? It has taken between two and three weeks of being in the soil mix for this growth to occur. Is that normal. The acorns were red oak.

letemgrow
04-02-2011, 01:17 PM
I am starting to see some sprouts above the soil and out the bootom of the palnter cells. The 18 count cells I used are about 2 inches deep. Do I need to move the sprouted acorns into bigger cells now or can they stay in these small ones for a while yet? It has taken between two and three weeks of being in the soil mix for this growth to occur. Is that normal. The acorns were red oak.


Reds sprout pretty fast and grow fast too. I would say that is pretty fast, what 18 cell trays are you using? The rootmaker cells are 4 inches deep so you can follow the 4 inch rule. If they are the 4 inch cells, you should leave them in there till they are about a foot tall or so. Basically you want the root to prune back until they fill the cell up with roots and then transfer it. It may be that they are 18 inches tall when they fill up the cells with roots. The best way to find out for sure is to remove one when they are a foot tall and see.

SDHunt24/7
04-02-2011, 02:43 PM
Reds sprout pretty fast and grow fast too. I would say that is pretty fast, what 18 cell trays are you using? The rootmaker cells are 4 inches deep so you can follow the 4 inch rule. If they are the 4 inch cells, you should leave them in there till they are about a foot tall or so. Basically you want the root to prune back until they fill the cell up with roots and then transfer it. It may be that they are 18 inches tall when they fill up the cells with roots. The best way to find out for sure is to remove one when they are a foot tall and see.

I am not sure what brand of cells they are. I bought them at Lowes and they are the biodegradable type. They are smaller than 4 inches though. The containers have small pencil size holes in the bottom and the roots are coming through these holes in some of the cells. Just feel that maybe I should move them to bigger cells. By the way I really appreciate your replies. Very prompt and informative.

letemgrow
04-02-2011, 03:25 PM
If they are only 2" deep, you are probably right to move them now then. Oaks like to put down more roots than top first anyays.

Are they the jiffy peat pots or something along those lines that you can plant pot and all and it will decompose? I use those some too, the 4 inch models work great for oaks and other nuts.

SDHunt24/7
04-02-2011, 07:00 PM
I think they are like those pots that you can just bury in the soil to decompose. I came home today and have a few more sprouting so I am going to put them in bigger pots.

huntdoc
04-04-2011, 08:06 AM
So I thought with warm weather it would be good to put my tray with more mature seedlings out on the front porch. One of the white oaks must have been exposed more than the rest as all but on small leaf was blown right off! I will be a bit more careful in the future, just thought I would warn others that these little trees aren't as tough as I thought!

letemgrow
04-04-2011, 12:22 PM
So I thought with warm weather it would be good to put my tray with more mature seedlings out on the front porch. One of the white oaks must have been exposed more than the rest as all but on small leaf was blown right off! I will be a bit more careful in the future, just thought I would warn others that these little trees aren't as tough as I thought!


20+ MPH winds will do that to young seedlings. :way:

dbltree
04-05-2011, 02:42 PM
It's been an unbelievably busy winter and no end in site but I finally got a few minutes to get some Dwarf Chinkapin Oak acorns planted in the Rootmaker cells.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/IMG_0010-1.jpg

Good link to more info on growing oaks from seed: Growing Oak Trees from Seed (http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-2542/NREM-5031web.pdf)


From that link....Note that the shoot and the root exit the seed at the same spot.and you can see that here after these acorns have been stored in the fridge since last fall.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/IMG_0012.jpg

These are acorns I bought from Advantage Nursery down south and happen to be from a bag I marked "floaters"...acorns that normally would not be considered viable..yet most did indeed sprout over the winter.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tree%20Planting/Acorns/IMG_0011.jpg

Now to get them up and growing and then eventually planted in hinged areas that are comprised of mostly cull trees now.... :way:

ironwood
04-07-2011, 05:52 PM
I just planted my first white oaks in the root prunning trays 5 days ago. I was wondering about how long these would stay in the 18 cell trays. If the 12 to 14 week range that I seem to remember is correct that puts me at the first part of July. I too intended to plant in a hinge cut area but I don't want to water trees all summer. Should I be planning on transplanting to a larger root pruning tray in July and a fall planting in the field?

letemgrow
04-07-2011, 06:33 PM
I just planted my first white oaks in the root prunning trays 5 days ago. I was wondering about how long these would stay in the 18 cell trays. If the 12 to 14 week range that I seem to remember is correct that puts me at the first part of July. I too intended to plant in a hinge cut area but I don't want to water trees all summer. Should I be planning on transplanting to a larger root pruning tray in July and a fall planting in the field?


The last 3 years you could plant them whenever with all the rains, to be 100% safe, moving them to the bags/bigger trays then a fall planting would be the safest way.

You could also hedge and plant 1/2 out in June/July, or whenever the trees get about 12-18 inches tall in the trays. If they get that tall by mid June, I would for sure plant 1/2 out then and move the other 1/2 up to bigger trays/bags then fall plant them.

ironwood
04-07-2011, 08:51 PM
I wish I had held back some of those DCO accorns I put in the ground last fall.

Thanks