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Ethics (how far is too far?)

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iabwhntr

Active Member
I am starting this thread in response to something I read on a different post.
Now, before we get started I would like to say that I didn't start this thread to pass judgement on any body, to criticize or to put down some bodys particular style of hunting.
With that being said... I have read that some people take shots at deer at 70 yards and some times beyond that.
My thoughts are that the possibility of missing the vitals increase drastically the farther away the target is. When you combine wind drift, the possibility of the animal moving during arrow flight and enter the factor of human error (poor form, mis ranged the animal, elevated heart rate and shaky hands etc.).
The word irresponsible was thrown about earlier but I think that to be to inflammatory so I will simply say i don't think it is a good idea.
I know that animals have been taken at that range and with todays technology, shots like that are POSSIBLE. But am I to understand that up until carbon arrows and compound bows, no one ever killed an antelope with a bow? I think that with all the advancements in archery a lot of us run the risk of losing our "woodsmanship" skills. Why get with in 40yds or under when I can kill it at 70 or 80 or 90 yards? I remember the days when shooting at anything over 40yds with an arrow might get you kicked out of camp.
Yes, I know things are different out west and if you don't take long shots you might go home empty handed. Well, in my opinion thats hunting. There are no gaurantees.
Fred Bear once said if you can hit a pie plate at X (insert appropriate yds here) you can kill a deer. I guess if you can put 8 out of 10 shots into that proverbial pie plate at 70+ yards, in the same clothes and set up you would use hunting (sitting? standing? in a blind or with binos strapped to your neck and jacket on?), then go ahead and take that shot.
But if your talking about hitting a target 5/10 times on still day in the middle of summer, nope I don't think you should be making shots at live animals at that distance.
This is only my opinion and like I said earlier I am not trying to offend anbody, I am simply asking you to ask yourself if you really think shots at 70 yards are ethical.
 
well michael waddell killed an elk at 85 yards a couple weeks ago...i didn't agree with that long of shot but the elk dead so i guess it was within his bow range...i would never shoot past 55 but that's me and i don't shoot 200 arrows a day. i suppose if you shoot all the time and know how much kinetic energy your arrow has at longer distances then its what ever you are comfortable with and can be sure with clean shot placement the animal will expire quickly
 
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You have pretty covered it all. It all depends on the hunter and the situation. I practice A LOT out to 70 and believe I can hit a pie tin 9.5 times out of 10. This doesn't mean I will shoot at a live animal at that range. I haven't taken any game past 45 yards. But I feel I could and would if everything was right.
 
Ive seen a lot of guys that can make that shot all day long. When I was shooting all the time I could hit a pie plate at 100 9/10 and could usually hit a pop can 2/3 at that distance. Although I Doubt I could walk outside and do that now. With that being said, I have missed a lot of deer that I could spit on in the past.

Point being, everyone here knows when they draw if theyre taking a potshot or if they are going to kill... It doesnt always work out, but dont take the potshot.
 
It is most certainly a person to person choice. Regardless of equipment, some people or just better shooters than others. I've been bow hunting for 7 years and just got a guy at work shooting bow last summer. On most days he'll out shoot me. I've shot more and have more experience, but he's just a better shooter. My max range that I would shoot a deer at it probably 50 yards. The biggest thing for me when shooting 50, 60, 70+ yards isn't whether I can put the arrow in the pie plate sized boiler room, but that the added distance gives the deer a heck of a lot more time to react to the bow sound. Even if you're shooting a "blazing" fast arrow, the sound is gonna get there first and the further the shot, the further behind the sound your arrow will be. But in the end, it all comes down to the shooter, the day and the prey. Is there wind? Is the deer acting spooky or calm? Are you feeling relaxed enough to hold your pin where it needs to be or are you freezing and shaking like a leaf? etc. etc.
 
Ive killed deer at 60... practice to 70+..would I shoot deer all day long at that distance, heck no... just as much can go wrong at 70 as at 20... twigs, string slap, so on... It all comes down to the person itself. End of story in my mind, and not trying to make that sound snotty either
 
Were people killing animals at 200 + yards 100 years ago with black powder rifles? I know they are today, better technology and people that take what they do seriously honing their skills. Same with archery in my opinion. I think it comes down to the shooter, their equipment, and their confidence in theor equipment and the conditions of the hunt. Would I shoot at a deer this fall at 70 yards, no way. I won't shoot over 30 yards from any of my setups this year, not comfortable past that distance right now.

That being said, I killed a big doe a couple of years ago at 55 yards in an open bean field. I was 100%confident in my shot at that distance. At that time I was shooting around 40 shots a day during the week and 100-200 on the weekends out to 70 yards. Me and a couple buddies had the spot to do it and challenged our selves to get better. We were doing allot of 3-D shoots at that time that had long distance shots. I am going on an elk hunt in the fall of 2013 in Colorado, and the outfitter as well as a few of the references I have contacted all told me to practice out to 80 yards, and find my longest confrotable distance. What ever I see as my comfortable range is where I will set my limit, weather it is 30 yards or 70 yards.
 
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deeraddict said:
Were people killing animals at 200 + yards 100 years ago with black powder rifles? I know they are today, better technology and people that take what they do seriously honing their skills. Same with archery in my opinion. I think it comes down to the shooter, their equipment, and their confidence in theor equipment and the conditions of the hunt. Would I shoot at a deer this fall at 70 yards, no way. I won't shoot over 30 yards from any of my setups this year, not comfortable past that distance right now.

That being said, I killed a big doe a couple of years ago at 55 yards in an open bean field. I was 100%confident in my shot at that distance. At that time I was shooting around 40 shots a day during the week and 100-200 on the weekends out to 70 yards. Me and a couple buddies had the spot to do it and challenged our selves to get better. We were doing allot of 3-D shoots at that time that had long distance shots. I am going on an elk hunt in the fall of 2013 in Colorado, and the outfitter as well as a few of the references I have contacted all told me to practice out to 80 yards, and find my longest confrotable distance. What ever I see as my comfortable range is where I will set my limit, weather it is 30 yards or 70 yards.
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That sums it up perfectly! I practice at 60 and 70 all the time and am very comfortable in my equipment and my ability to take that shot. If that is the closest I can get (I ALWAYS try to get as close as possible) to an animal, its good to know I can do it. I can shoot baseball sized groups at 60 yards and softball sized groups at 70 yards...because I practice at those ranges regularly. However, I will only take that longer shot if I'm standing (not kneeling or sitting) on solid ground and the wind is calm. On the same note, if I'm in a treestand, 40 yards is my absolute maximum due to my comfort level in how solid my footing is.

For those of you who plan a hunt out west (whatever state it is), I agree that you need to learn to shoot out to at least 70 yards comfortably, if not farther. This is a good discussion and, for me, the bottom line is that you should only shoot as far as you are comfortable and as far as you practice. It doesn't make me shooting out to 70 yards right and it doesn't make me wrong any more than it makes the next guy right/wrong for thinking 70 yards is too far. Good discussion! :way:
 
I agree, it is a good discussion! and btw AZhunter, challenge or invitation I'm headed your way next fall. Already put in for the time off. Still waitin on that pm though...

Point being, everyone here knows when they draw if theyre taking a potshot or if they are going to kill... It doesnt always work out, but dont take the potshot.
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For me that pretty much sums it up right there.
 
I can shoot baseball sized groups at 60 yards and softball sized groups at 70 yards...because I practice at those ranges regularly.
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for the record I would not think it improper for you (or anyone who can do this) to shoot at game from that distance.
 
I believe it all is a matter of your skill I have been bowhunting for 3 years now and never shot at anything over 20 yards away because I like the challenge of having to have one come in close range but others may like the challenge of a long shot. To each their own I say.
 
I know allot of people who practice at 50-80 yards. Being proficient at that range tends to make you a better shot at a closer range. But with that being said, I think all of you can not predict the weather conditions at any given time and cannot consistantly, even though you practice regularly, hit a pie plate on any given day 7-9 time out of 10. AGAIN WEATHER PERMITTING. Indoors, yah, outdoors, not on any give day. Nice calm day, yep not a problem, done it myself. But when you throw in the weather eliment, things change drastically.

You cannot also predict the animals behavior. All it takes is one step at 80 yards when you release or a split second after you release and you have either paunched that animal or hit them with less kenetic energy in the shoulder.

Again with that said, I am sure you all are not just flinging arrow at that range at game and are taking into account the weather patterns, wind, drizzle, etc...when you release, arent you?? LOL

Now with that being said, "Is it Ethical?" IMO I dont think so, becuase of those uncertianties. Does it happen, of course it does...and everyone that does it should be taking all those uncertianties into concideration when shooting at that animal.

Practicing at those ranges will of course make you proficent at shooting long distances just like with a gun...but when it comes time to make that shot in adverse weather, I sure hope you think about it before taking that shot...

I think I rambled a bit, but I dont condone shooting that far, I also dont condone shooting at runnign deer with a bow. But I also beleive that if you practice at that distance, at a tire rolling down a hill with a target in the center, that you can become a better shot and have "Better Odds" of killing that animal. But there are so many variables that it really doenst make it an ethical shot. But it does happen and people do kill animals...would you condone it or approve of it? I dont this anyone really would...Each of us knows our own limits and what we are cable of, but that doenst mean we all should be doing it.

Done....sorry.
 
iabwhntr said:
for the record I would not think it improper for you (or anyone who can do this) to shoot at game from that distance.
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That attitude and admission is a good start on getting an invite! Before you take time off, though, you need to look at AZ's regs. I have a nice discussion of them (almost all lottery for big game; some OTC deer tags in August/Sept, Dec. and Jan) in my AZ Elk Hunt Journal.
 
If your only shooting 45 or 50 yards I don even know why you'd buy a expensive new bow cuz the old bows from 15-20 years ago could do that. Heck they were lucky to chrono at 200 with them big heavy pipes of aluminum. It's like comparing a 22 rifle to a deer rifle. No comparison. I just guided a little 11 year old girl who was shooting 34 lbs and she made a full pass through on a doe a 25 yards. Most Of you probly pull 70. It's 100% true that If you practice at 80 or 100 each time, 40 and 50 will feel like Yur 10 yards from the target. And these new bows have so much knockdown it's rediculous. I laugh when people say" I saw a giant the last couple times I hunted but the dang thing was 65 yards. Just out of reach".
 
Heck you don't have to even be that good of shot anymore. Just get an arrow in them with a two blade rage and your tags filled!!!
 
I am confident in my equipment at MY max distance. I also know that the difference between guessing (only for example) 45 yards, when it is actually 48 or 49 yards could end in a miss, or worse, a bad hit, even with a fast shooting bow. With that said, I will not criticize a hunter who knows his/her equipment and knows the EXACT distance to the animal when considering and taking a long shot. I won't tell you what my max distance is, but I have practiced for it and I am ready for it. And I will tell you I spend most of my bow time in trees set up for shots in the 15-25 yard range.
 
AZHunter said:
I can shoot baseball sized groups at 60 yards and softball sized groups at 70 yards...
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Not calling you out or anything but I see this all the time. With all the guys drilling sub 3" groups at 60 yards you would think they would be challenging the top shooters in the world at 20 yards.
 
Just shot tonight. Banging em together at 60. Finished my sixth beer, and flung one wide left of the block. 5 is my limit.
 
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