"Too High" Deer Density = Smaller Bucks????

[Sligh1]

Question/Scenario...
So there's a random piece of land in Iowa with something rediculous, say 200 deer per square mile, hardly hunted. Premium area/habitat like most of Iowa.
The imaginary owner leaves standing corn, beans, hay and tons of food plots that don't run out before spring planting, plenty of food basically.

I am sure some deer get a bit stressed with all the other deer BUT if there's enough food, they can obviously get mature and it's in premium habitat- why do you need to shoot does? (not talking about ratio or having a intense rut)

How would this scenario decrease antler size. My area isn't like this BUT I see many that are and those over-populated areas still produce unbeleivably huge bucks that are massive.
This is not considering disease, crop damage, forest damage, etc. BUT just the size of bucks.

BASICALLY, if there's more food than the herd can consume- year round- (carrying capacity) how can that hinder racks even with rediculously "too high" populations?
*I of course will continue to shoot does but just always wondered about this.
Thoughts????

 

[loneranger]

Only to say,, that in Nature, Overpopulation always has an adverse effect on how animal societies function. It even happens with Humans. I get agitated with too many people around.

 

[Central Iowa]

Re: "Too High" Deer Density = Smaller Bucks????

Those specimans you are talking about are usually the dominent or rank fairly high in the hierarchy. I have hunted properties similar to what you have described and from my observations some deer look excellent and some look terrible. My assumption is that the more dominent the better bedding, feeding, fawn dropping areas they have. This translates into a lfetime of less stress and the better specimans of the herd. If the population was at a lower level I would beleive that you would have a healtier herd overall.

 

[vman]

with ideal habitat and all the food they could ever consume, in theory you could have as many deer as you wanted. The only downfall would be social stress.

 

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only downfall would be social stress.
</div></div>

and i think that is a huge but overlooked factor...

doe groups like their space not to mention genetic problems that begin to arise from overcrowding animals.

I'm not a scientist (rocket or otherwise... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif ) but higher deer populations in my area over the past decade have produced more genetically inferior deer then when populations were much lower.

I see way more spikes when 10-12 years ago I never saw one.. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

 

[Central Iowa]

Here is a quote from a QDMA article by Jason Snavely aboutthe affects of social stress and antler development.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In the Michigan study, increasing deer density also affected antler development. When the deer density was low, yearling bucks did not exhibit short spikes. However, at higher densities, 22 percent of the yearling bucks grew short spikes as their first set of antlers. Keep in mind that proper nutrition was available even as densities increased to 10 times that which the natural habitat conditions could sustain. Ozoga and Verme concluded that, “Socially stressed male fawns experienced a physiological setback and probable sex hormone imbalance that impaired antler pedicle development.” Pedicles are the bony protrusions on a buck's head on which antlers develop. A buck will grow his first set of antlers on these pedicles at 1.5 years of age. Ozoga states the obvious that, “Undersized pedicles resulted in smaller–than– normal antlers.” While it is well documented that a lack of adequate nutrition will prevent a buck from reaching its full genetic potential, it is apparent that density related stress can produce similar effects. Biologists now believe that social stress may be affecting antler growth and fawn recruitment in some herds.</div></div>

 

[TallTines]

Great question by the way and one that I believe is not addressed very much.

One thing w/ high deer populations that I see is definately the stress on the herd. Central Iowa brought up a great point w/ the ideal bedding areas compared to less than ideal and more stress involved because of it. It's that type of daily stress that I believe will result in undersized antlers.

Have you ever watched a 100 deer in a field feeding and just one gets jumpy and empties the whole field. That would be annoying and very stressful if it happened all the time.

I truly believe most of your old mature bucks prefer a very low population that is far less stressful. They can't breed a 100 does and the extra bucks around just create more stress. Why would an old mature buck not rather go to that property across the road w/ less deer, less stress, less habitat but enough, and probably plenty of food. I'll bet the neighbors kill big deer.

I believe w/ the right smaller population you can manage and produce more mature bucks that have better genetics.

If you have a property like that I believe you would have to bite the bullet for a few years and just take out does and management bucks all season long.

 

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">at higher densities, 22 percent of the yearling bucks grew short spikes as their first set of antlers. Keep in mind that proper nutrition was available even as densities increased to 10 times that which the natural habitat conditions could sustain. </div></div>

I guess I'm not just "seeing things" as I get older Travis /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Sure is obvious that high deer densities are not the best managment option after reading that.

 

[hornhntr]

I would think that most of those large massive bucks you talk about don't live in the high populated areas but outside the area in a secluded summer location since the does get the best areas to raise their fawns in. They enter the high density areas in the fall because there are alot of does to breed and the outside excessive hunting pressure and eventual decreased food availablity forces them into the area for winter survival. Thus some of them are able to grow to a mature age and have those massive antlers.