HF 210 Straight wall rifle
- Thread starter Fishbonker
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gunrunr
Life Member
Despite my best efforts at emailing legislators, I think this bill is going to pass easily.
I think we need to redirect our efforts and try to get the rules changed instead
- if we can eliminate some of the cartridges on the list or even better - eliminate semi--auto rifles it would be much more acceptable.
Limit to the usage of bolt/lever/pump or single shot and thing get much safer.
I think we need to redirect our efforts and try to get the rules changed instead
- if we can eliminate some of the cartridges on the list or even better - eliminate semi--auto rifles it would be much more acceptable.
Limit to the usage of bolt/lever/pump or single shot and thing get much safer.
breckhawk
PMA Member
Logically...opposing this particular bill never made any sense and the voting showed it. These calibers are already legal in a pistol config and no new seasons were introduced. All this did was allow people to use these cartridges in a safer and more accurate configuration.
The only thing that needs done here is banning the 45 acp cartridge. I still don't know why that one ever made it. 'Actual' rifle cartridges also have no place in Iowa and I will be the first one opposing those...when that time comes....although Smokeless ML's are basically the SAME FREAKING THING as a single shot 30-06...yet I know there are quite a few of you out there that use them. The way people talk around here Smokeless ML's should be banned as well as Semi-Auto Shotguns.
I'm sure this will rub most of you the wrong way and it should. It's meant to get you actually researching and thinking for yourself.
Opposing every bill that comes through is absolutely no different then what democrats are doing to Trump right now. It's like...I'm going to oppose Trumps immigration plan because it 'might' lead to something else'...even though it makes it safer. The more you cry wolf about everything the less the uneducated legislator thinks of your opinion when you oppose a bill. Fight the bills that are actually going to make a big change...and that you care about.
What I see here is the democratic pied piper effect. Certain 'cool' posters say it's wrong so I better vote No (or agree) or I will be flamed by everyone that loves them. No different from all the people protesting Trump because it's the 'cool' celeb thing to do. Some of you even probably talk yourself into thinking it's the right viewpoint just because a certain poster says it is....even though your brain says otherwise.
Research the bills and formulate your own opinions. Just because someone has multiple Booners or 200" bucks on their wall doesn't mean they know what is best for every deer hunter.
Breckhawk- well thought out post. you are the type of person that makes a thoughtful debate (instead of mud slinging) and I for one, appreciate that. With that said, here's why I disagree with you.....
This is not like just "blocking anything trump does" like the democrats. A better anology would be this, IMO... it's more like being in a state or nation with a 65% tax rate. You have one side that has drawn a line in the sand saying "our taxes are drowning us, no more big or small tax increases!" And they fight. Or guys who fight against gun regulations because we know the best way to take away rights is "little by little". Well- Iowa having 6 deer seasons, 5 weapons and 4 months of hunting is that line in the sand folks are defending. We are tired of the assault on our deer regulations and constant Liberalising of them - adding seasons, weapons, more killing, WHATEVER.
This bill does not pass the obvious smell test if you push through the logic of it.... it's being issued because of "recoil" (the politician that created it claims he lost his hunting family due to high recoil guns as ONE reason he started the bill). Well- we can easily explain: 50-60 grains in a ML, the new "low recoil shotgun rounds" - will have little recoil. Bow and arrows will have none. We know this isn't a true valid reason. Let's be honest... the real reason is: the gun lobby, selling more guns, keeping FB happy, killing more deer, etc. Educated hunters know this. NOT "cool hunters". Hunters with a brain know what's going on here. *the poll on here- 30 to 2 against is anonymous btw. U can vote your conscious. I realize this group does have some "hardcore whitetail guys here" but I honestly trust the vote of hunters here more than I trust the politicians. Seriously.
Here's the bigger problem.... "2 years from now" (whatever, making this up) - beyond the problems this bill already creates.... we all know we'll see a bill for "rifles for deer" or whatever. "Rifles for deer.... we already allow short wall cartridges and this really would bring more hunters to the sport". Sell more guns, gun lobby supports rifles, same with FB. Whatever. We all know this is a slippery slope and whatever side you're on- come on, can we admit that we know what is to come later?
Smokeless ML's like rifles..... how many take the time to do this? Seriously? You can't go to Walmart & buy one and have a "30-06". Not even close. The things take a "gun nerd" huge amounts of $ to build, hours & days to tweak and are pretty complicated. Since they've been around for say, 5-10 years (guess?)..... I personally have never seen one person hunting with one. I know 4 of my friends (out of a huge amount of hunters I know or talk with) that have one. I'm going to take an educated guess, less than .01% of hunters have one. Maybe I'm wrong. You put out semi auto straight walled rifles, lever action or bolt - every Walmart in Iowa will or does have em and there will be a huge amount of guys grabbing them (which to you may be a good thing- fine). To me- that's an addition to our 6 season, 5 weapon, 4 month season and FOR ME - the deer in my area have plenty of pressure as it is. The hunters have a 3rd of a year to kill em with tons of weapons. It's overkill as it is. I'd love to see it rolled back to be honest. The line in the sand and Liberal seasons are past and out of control as it is. You may see differently and that's our disagreement in a nut shell. Protect Iowa's fragile resource and quit messing with our regulations!
This is not like just "blocking anything trump does" like the democrats. A better anology would be this, IMO... it's more like being in a state or nation with a 65% tax rate. You have one side that has drawn a line in the sand saying "our taxes are drowning us, no more big or small tax increases!" And they fight. Or guys who fight against gun regulations because we know the best way to take away rights is "little by little". Well- Iowa having 6 deer seasons, 5 weapons and 4 months of hunting is that line in the sand folks are defending. We are tired of the assault on our deer regulations and constant Liberalising of them - adding seasons, weapons, more killing, WHATEVER.
This bill does not pass the obvious smell test if you push through the logic of it.... it's being issued because of "recoil" (the politician that created it claims he lost his hunting family due to high recoil guns as ONE reason he started the bill). Well- we can easily explain: 50-60 grains in a ML, the new "low recoil shotgun rounds" - will have little recoil. Bow and arrows will have none. We know this isn't a true valid reason. Let's be honest... the real reason is: the gun lobby, selling more guns, keeping FB happy, killing more deer, etc. Educated hunters know this. NOT "cool hunters". Hunters with a brain know what's going on here. *the poll on here- 30 to 2 against is anonymous btw. U can vote your conscious. I realize this group does have some "hardcore whitetail guys here" but I honestly trust the vote of hunters here more than I trust the politicians. Seriously.
Here's the bigger problem.... "2 years from now" (whatever, making this up) - beyond the problems this bill already creates.... we all know we'll see a bill for "rifles for deer" or whatever. "Rifles for deer.... we already allow short wall cartridges and this really would bring more hunters to the sport". Sell more guns, gun lobby supports rifles, same with FB. Whatever. We all know this is a slippery slope and whatever side you're on- come on, can we admit that we know what is to come later?
Smokeless ML's like rifles..... how many take the time to do this? Seriously? You can't go to Walmart & buy one and have a "30-06". Not even close. The things take a "gun nerd" huge amounts of $ to build, hours & days to tweak and are pretty complicated. Since they've been around for say, 5-10 years (guess?)..... I personally have never seen one person hunting with one. I know 4 of my friends (out of a huge amount of hunters I know or talk with) that have one. I'm going to take an educated guess, less than .01% of hunters have one. Maybe I'm wrong. You put out semi auto straight walled rifles, lever action or bolt - every Walmart in Iowa will or does have em and there will be a huge amount of guys grabbing them (which to you may be a good thing- fine). To me- that's an addition to our 6 season, 5 weapon, 4 month season and FOR ME - the deer in my area have plenty of pressure as it is. The hunters have a 3rd of a year to kill em with tons of weapons. It's overkill as it is. I'd love to see it rolled back to be honest. The line in the sand and Liberal seasons are past and out of control as it is. You may see differently and that's our disagreement in a nut shell. Protect Iowa's fragile resource and quit messing with our regulations!
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Here is a baseball analogy that is applicable to a lot of things. (don't even follow baseball, but this stuck with me years ago)
Barry Bonds talked about plate discipline when discussing batting. He would only swing at what he thought were strikes. There was no swinging at balls 1” off the plate even if he thought he could crank it out of the park. His reasoning? If you accept 1”, then 1 ½” eventually becomes justifiable. Once that becomes normalized then 2” becomes justifiable....and on it goes. Soon, you have lost all plate discipline and are swinging at bad pitches.
Regulations are the same exact way. It’s a very slippery slope.
Crossbows are a perfect example. It starts with injured people (I’m ok with that), then it goes to elderly, then to youth, then it becomes legal to use during muzzleloader season (Iowa), before you know it there will be a big push for open use during bow season.
The special interest folks are smart. They know they cannot make wholesale changes all at once, so they bite off small pieces at time that are just palatable enough to get push thru. Years later, folks look in the rear view mirror and wonder what happened.
This is my personal reason for opposing this bill.
Barry Bonds talked about plate discipline when discussing batting. He would only swing at what he thought were strikes. There was no swinging at balls 1” off the plate even if he thought he could crank it out of the park. His reasoning? If you accept 1”, then 1 ½” eventually becomes justifiable. Once that becomes normalized then 2” becomes justifiable....and on it goes. Soon, you have lost all plate discipline and are swinging at bad pitches.
Regulations are the same exact way. It’s a very slippery slope.
Crossbows are a perfect example. It starts with injured people (I’m ok with that), then it goes to elderly, then to youth, then it becomes legal to use during muzzleloader season (Iowa), before you know it there will be a big push for open use during bow season.
The special interest folks are smart. They know they cannot make wholesale changes all at once, so they bite off small pieces at time that are just palatable enough to get push thru. Years later, folks look in the rear view mirror and wonder what happened.
This is my personal reason for opposing this bill.
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Rjack
Well-Known Member
Just because someone has a different opinion does not make it illogical....
Moving these carriages from handgun (specialized few who are willing to hunt with this platform) to a rifle platform (which almost anyone can pick up and be effective) is a significant change in my opion. I oppose it as it will now move from a few using them to many using them, and the fact it will be illogical to many to not add other "similar" cartridges . Eventually this logic will result in all rifles catridges being allowed in Iowa during the gun seasons.
I agree with the smokeless muzzleloader being being similar to a modern rifle, with one big difference - a single shot. That is what keeps the muzzleloader crowd fairly small - they can't launch 5 rounds at a running deer.
Moving these carriages from handgun (specialized few who are willing to hunt with this platform) to a rifle platform (which almost anyone can pick up and be effective) is a significant change in my opion. I oppose it as it will now move from a few using them to many using them, and the fact it will be illogical to many to not add other "similar" cartridges . Eventually this logic will result in all rifles catridges being allowed in Iowa during the gun seasons.
I agree with the smokeless muzzleloader being being similar to a modern rifle, with one big difference - a single shot. That is what keeps the muzzleloader crowd fairly small - they can't launch 5 rounds at a running deer.
So- just out of curiousity (yes, I'll admit no matter the answer- I'm still against this).... with this bill, will semi auto short walled rifles be allowed now? Like above? So- a .50 cal Beowulf AR could be used during deer season? I honestly don't know but do I have this correct???? This is ridiculous if the answer is "YES".
Based on why they are adding weapons to our season, I don't understand why they don't limit it to a single shot like a ML. ?!?!?!?!
Based on why they are adding weapons to our season, I don't understand why they don't limit it to a single shot like a ML. ?!?!?!?!
Fishbonker
Life Member
Semi auto short walled rifles are not currently allowed. The way the bill is written straight wall guns will only be allowed in youth, disabled and shotgun seasons not early or late ML. So far the bill hasn't been placed on the Senate debate calendar yet.
Zay 'elllo to my leetel frin:
This is my concern, I bought this .40cal carbine about 15 years ago. I know it isn't a deer killer, but that doesn't mean somebody else doesn't. It is at the other end of the .50cal/semiauto cannons concerns. Even at 20 yards this gun will not kill a deer in any kind of quick and humane way.
I purchased this gun used through a company that buys used police weapons. It is incredibly heavy for a carbine and clunky in its action. I bought it so I could have a handgun and a rifle in the same cartridge for fun in the back yard. Not for serious hunting. But like I said, it would be a legal method of take so who knows, some may consider this a youth gun.
Zay 'elllo to my leetel frin:
This is my concern, I bought this .40cal carbine about 15 years ago. I know it isn't a deer killer, but that doesn't mean somebody else doesn't. It is at the other end of the .50cal/semiauto cannons concerns. Even at 20 yards this gun will not kill a deer in any kind of quick and humane way.
I purchased this gun used through a company that buys used police weapons. It is incredibly heavy for a carbine and clunky in its action. I bought it so I could have a handgun and a rifle in the same cartridge for fun in the back yard. Not for serious hunting. But like I said, it would be a legal method of take so who knows, some may consider this a youth gun.
rutnstrut
PMA Member
Semi auto short walled rifles are not currently allowed. The way the bill is written straight wall guns will only be allowed in youth, disabled and shotgun seasons not early or late ML. So far the bill hasn't been placed on the Senate debate calendar yet.
Zay 'elllo to my leetel frin:
This is my concern, I bought this .40cal carbine about 15 years ago. I know it isn't a deer killer, but that doesn't mean somebody else doesn't. It is at the other end of the .50cal/semiauto cannons concerns. Even at 20 yards this gun will not kill a deer in any kind of quick and humane way.
I purchased this gun used through a company that buys used police weapons. It is incredibly heavy for a carbine and clunky in its action. I bought it so I could have a handgun and a rifle in the same cartridge for fun in the back yard. Not for serious hunting. But like I said, it would be a legal method of take so who knows, some may consider this a youth gun.
I thought it would allow them in all firearms seasons except early muzzleloader?
Ad just out of curiosity why do you think your .40 carbine wouldn't be suitable to kill a deer? Why would it be any less suitable than a .45 muzzy loaded down to 50grains of powder which seems to be a pretty common youth deer load and seems to do the job just fine as long as common sense is used on distance and shots taken.
Fishbonker
Life Member
Because I have "0" experience with ML. I have no idea what 50 grains and .45 cal bullet is capable of. I shot the .40 carbine, not at any game, but based on penetration, or lack there of, on wood backing the paper target at 20 yards I was under impressed.
When the original bill HF 210 was introduced and referred to committee it was for shotgun and late ML, when it came out of committee it had dropped the late ML. Later the amendment to add youth and disabled was added. The bill is now assigned to the Senate Natural Resources and Environment Committee sub-committee of Rozenboom Greene and Kinney.
When the original bill HF 210 was introduced and referred to committee it was for shotgun and late ML, when it came out of committee it had dropped the late ML. Later the amendment to add youth and disabled was added. The bill is now assigned to the Senate Natural Resources and Environment Committee sub-committee of Rozenboom Greene and Kinney.
4DABUCKS
Well-Known Member
Same ?
Fishbonker
Life Member
ken.rozenboom@legis.iowa.gov Chairman of the Senate committee
tom.greene@legis.iowa.gov From Polk County.
kevin.kinney@legis.iowa.gov From western Johnson County. Minority member (democrat) on the sub committee.
Copy and paste of an email sent out the other day on a different bill (hunting license fee increase):
I'm sending this again, after our ICA meeting Wednesday we were given some new information about contacting your legislators. With all the controversial issues that have faced legislators this session many emails are not being read, many deleted by staff members. Below is the switchboard numbers for House and Senate, these phone lines are manned 24/7, you can leave a message with a real person. You just need to know your legislator, most important to give your name and the town you live in. This lets them know you are a voting constituent. A phone call to any legislator is good, but they sit up and take notice when you are from their district.
Please let them know you support HF 574, the DNR Trust Fund user fee increase. This is a user fee not a tax increase.
House switchboard number 515-281-3221
Senate switchboard number 515-281-3371
tom.greene@legis.iowa.gov From Polk County.
kevin.kinney@legis.iowa.gov From western Johnson County. Minority member (democrat) on the sub committee.
Copy and paste of an email sent out the other day on a different bill (hunting license fee increase):
I'm sending this again, after our ICA meeting Wednesday we were given some new information about contacting your legislators. With all the controversial issues that have faced legislators this session many emails are not being read, many deleted by staff members. Below is the switchboard numbers for House and Senate, these phone lines are manned 24/7, you can leave a message with a real person. You just need to know your legislator, most important to give your name and the town you live in. This lets them know you are a voting constituent. A phone call to any legislator is good, but they sit up and take notice when you are from their district.
Please let them know you support HF 574, the DNR Trust Fund user fee increase. This is a user fee not a tax increase.
House switchboard number 515-281-3221
Senate switchboard number 515-281-3371
m_kat
Member
Thanks for the updates Fishbonker, glad to see they pulled it out of the late muzzleloader season.
I did not see anywhere in the passed house bill where it said that semi-autos are not allowed though?
https://www.legis.iowa.gov/legislation/BillBook?ba=HF 475&ga=87
I did not see anywhere in the passed house bill where it said that semi-autos are not allowed though?
https://www.legis.iowa.gov/legislation/BillBook?ba=HF 475&ga=87
The 1st line in response from the House Member that created the bill was "DUE TO LOSING HUNTERS FROM HIGH RECOIL"..... How much time does it take to google this??
https://www.remington.com/ammunition/shotshell/slugs/slugger-managed-recoil-rifled-slugs
20 Gauge (which is lighter to begin with) with an additional 45% recoil reduction. Of course I could go down the list of his other minor reasonings which also don't add up or make any sense but the folks making this decision sure should be aware of this. & of course, ML with 50 grains or bow/arrow having no recoil period. Just stinks at all levels and phony arguments. I honestly believe this had support in house BECAUSE.... 1) the Politicians don't actually look into simple facts like this (like the solutions for recall), don't understand the threats to our regulations yearly. Or are in bed with FB, etc. 2) I think because gun lobby is on board and Iowa is wanting to come across to everyone (which in many ways is good) as PRO-GUN.... No one dared to oppose it - they sure didn't want to be viewed as "anti-gun" in this state. So - I understand why they voted the way they did BUT - the facts and information out there & common sense would win this argument if we can get them to the right folks.
https://www.remington.com/ammunition/shotshell/slugs/slugger-managed-recoil-rifled-slugs
20 Gauge (which is lighter to begin with) with an additional 45% recoil reduction. Of course I could go down the list of his other minor reasonings which also don't add up or make any sense but the folks making this decision sure should be aware of this. & of course, ML with 50 grains or bow/arrow having no recoil period. Just stinks at all levels and phony arguments. I honestly believe this had support in house BECAUSE.... 1) the Politicians don't actually look into simple facts like this (like the solutions for recall), don't understand the threats to our regulations yearly. Or are in bed with FB, etc. 2) I think because gun lobby is on board and Iowa is wanting to come across to everyone (which in many ways is good) as PRO-GUN.... No one dared to oppose it - they sure didn't want to be viewed as "anti-gun" in this state. So - I understand why they voted the way they did BUT - the facts and information out there & common sense would win this argument if we can get them to the right folks.