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TSI Pictures

Ghost

Ghost

Life Member
I thought I would spin off the TSI post for these pictures in a new post. Feel free to continue any TSI information or questions/discussion here. I'm just glad to put the saw down for a while and focus on shed hunting and Spring bow hunting for turkeys.

Two Red Oak crop trees and they have a competitive crown. Kills you to kill one sometimes.
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Shagbark Hickory with a double girdle, it had a competitive crown with a nice White Oak.
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Non-pod producing Thorny Locus with a single girdle with sprayed herbicide next to a Black Oak crop tree
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Stand of Bitternut Hickory with crop tree release...(Hickory Kitchen Cabinets)
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White Oak and Black Oak which is in the background. The ice storm has already worked on the double girdled trees
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Great TSI example of a judgement call, a grouping of three nice White Oaks with equal size, equal spacing, and equal canopy competition. They were treated as a single crop tree.
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A non-pod producing Thorny Locus next to a nice Black Oak crop tree with a single girdle and treated with herbicide.
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Wishing all of you interested in TSI....a reliable saw, a strong back, and lots of determination. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
Great pics! I will have to take my camera with me next time I make it out to do some TSI. Thanks for sharing. While we are on the topic of TSI I have a question on hard maple seedlings. I have ridge of mostly mature white oak. We have done a select cutting on some of them and will continue to take a few more every year for a few years. The problem is that there are TONS of maple seedlings taking over instead of young oak seedlings. In this type of situation what would you recommend for better oak regeneration???
 
Maple Bad, Oak Good! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

That may be a better question for a distric forester. But, from my understanding, maple, and especially Sugar Maple, it will canopy in shaded areas and restrict Oak regeneration. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can help more. I treated all Maple as a weed tree during my TSI project...it was of no wildlife value to me.

I was also told that a mature Oak stand will sometimes need to be fully harvested for Oak regeneration to occur. Also, prescribed burn for such an area will also aid in Oak regeneration.

You should see the 300 acres to the North of me that was clearcut about 4 years ago. Oak regeneration about 6 foot tall and 6 inches apart...guess where the big bucks hide when the orange vests are pulled from the closet?
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maple Bad, Oak Good! </div></div>


Great pictures and examples of what Timber Stand Improvement is about and how and why one does it.

Your going to to have some awesome timber and mast production and all your hard work will have paid off.

Most of my work is clear cutting areas of junk trees to create bedding areas which isn't true TSI of course...more like "chainsaw massacre"

Thanks for sharing the pics and info with us /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
What are the benefits of TSI?

One benefit that can be obtained through TSI is increased acorn production. This is valuable to species that rely heavily on acorns during fall and winter like white-tailed deer and wild turkeys. Whereas trees in a dense stand tend to put most of their energy into vertical growth to obtain sunlight, trees that have been released from intense competition through TSI put more of their energy into crown growth. Increased crown growth in turn yields increased fruit production. TSI can also reduce the time needed for crop trees to reach maturity and optimal fruit production; sapling and pole-sized trees that have more freedom to grow produce much sooner than crowded trees. Another benefit of TSI is increased timber production. With more sunlight, nutrients, and moisture going to fewer trees after TSI, released trees can put on more diameter—meaning increased timber volume, quality, and potential revenue for the landowner. Other benefits of TSI include the option of using culled trees for firewood, using the culled trees to create snags or brush piles for wildlife cover, and putting woody material on the forest floor.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I have a question on hard maple seedlings. I have ridge of mostly mature white oak. We have done a select cutting on some of them and will continue to take a few more every year for a few years. The problem is that there are TONS of maple seedlings taking over instead of young oak seedlings. In this type of situation what would you recommend for better oak regeneration??? </div></div>

You are probably encouraging the maple seedlings to grow by select cutting your oak without any other habitat work ... it's happenning all over Iowa. Most people select cut oak timber because they assume a clear cut or seed tree cut is bad. By openning up an oak stand just a little you let in just enough light to enhance the shade tolerant species (ie. maple) but not enough to provide good oak regen ... and I would hate to clear cut a mature stand of white oak too, they won't be back to that stage in our lifetime, but select logging in oak timber with no other management is the best way to replace an oak forest with other species.

Other than clearcutting your ridge ... there are a couple things you can do. First you should find the maple seed tree or trees that are producing your seedlings and harvest it instead of your oaks or cut it down if it is not merchantable. Second you should develop a prescribe burn plan for your oak timber. Most shade tolerant species (like maple) will not respond well to repeated prescribed fire but oak does. You may also try small patch clear cut if you intend to do more logging of your oak that will allow more sunlight to reach the forest floor.

If you kill the seed trees and utilize fire, you will be able to keep your stand of white oaks and prevent it from becoming a stand of maple.


Nice photos Kent .... just one comment, you are still a young guy, bend over a little when you girdle those trees so you don't have a bunch of waste high stumps on your ground for years to come ... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice photos Kent .... just one comment, you are still a young guy, bend over a little when you girdle those trees so you don't have a bunch of waste high stumps on your ground for years to come ... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif </div></div>

Rob...Young guy? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

My buddies are calling me the Grey Ghost!

What is wrong with waste high stumps? Do they scare away deer or something?

You should see the bedding areas I made with 24 inch Shagbark Hickory hinged about 4 feet high. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

I didn't take any pictures of my Tornado zones...didn't want to scare anyone away that was considering TSI in the future. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

Have you been in a Timber that had TSI completed 5 years ago?

Stumps and the aesthetics of my timber are not part of my Timber/Wildlife management plans.... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
great pics. I still haven't found the courage to girdle/cut down oaks near each other...I'm working myself into it even though I know it is the right thing to do. Couple questions, I think I have small 2-5 inch diameter elms all over the place and I hope to make it down to cut them down...do you guys usually take out all of those types of trees you can see and do you spray the stump with anything particular? I haven't had great kill success with what I've tried on what I believe are elms. Does spring or fall timber burns seem to work better in knocking back elms and particularly prickly ash? I talked to someone recently who recommended waiting until fall to get a hotter fire for increased kill rate.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rob...Young guy? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

My buddies are calling me the Grey Ghost /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

What is wrong with waste high stumps? Do they scare away deer or something?

You should see the bedding areas I made with 24 inch Shagbark Hickory hinged about 4 feet high. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

I didn't take any pictures of my Tornado zones...didn't want to scare anyone away that was considering TSI in the future.

Have you been in a Timber that had TSI completed 5 years ago? ... </div></div>

I know what you mean ... I guess they could call me the Bald Ghost ... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

I guess I worked for the timber industry too long where high stumps are not considered a good thing ... mostly it presents problems with future logging in a TSI and it is wasteful in a commercial cut. As far as wildlife goes high stumps aren't an issue ... heck during the gun season you can even dress them in orange and perhaps fool some unwanteds to keep out ... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

We do quite alot of the "tornado" cuts on our place too ... I call it nuclear logging ... most of our timber is a mess of watse high hinge cut trees for bedding areas or open oak stands that we manage with fire and girdling.


I have looked at many timber stands that have been TSI'd, some had been TSI'd 40 years ago. The timber industry invests heavily in TSI and there has been significant research done on the benefits of TSI, especially in conifer stands but also in deciduous forest. It is a practice that every landowner should consider wether it is for enhancing a stand for merchantable sawlogs or wildlife habitat.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Couple questions, I think I have small 2-5 inch diameter elms all over the place and I hope to make it down to cut them down...do you guys usually take out all of those types of trees you can see and do you spray the stump with anything particular? I haven't had great kill success with what I've tried on what I believe are elms. Does spring or fall timber burns seem to work better in knocking back elms and particularly prickly ash? I talked to someone recently who recommended waiting until fall to get a hotter fire for increased kill rate. </div></div>

I hinge cut, girdle or fall all the white elms, but depending on what species it is competing with, I usually leave red elms because of their sawlog value. The girdled and felled white elms I treat with Tordon RTU, the hingcut trees I usually don't treat.

A fall fire right after the leaves are on the ground can produce a hot fire that will kill young elms and prickly ash, but you have to pick the right day with good wind and low humidity. Young trees are pretty vulnerable when they are trying to set bud in the fall. I don't like to burn in the fall simply because I am a little extreme about illiminating as much disturbance as possible in the deer woods that time of the year ... but ecologically it is a good time to burn.

Something to consider is that one good fire will not cure all your timber's problems. If you burn you will likely find many pockets that go unburned and some areas will burn hotter than others creating a mosiac of results from differences in fire intensity ... and this is a great thing for wildlife. Prescribed fire in timber is more beneificial with repeated, low intensity, burns every 2 to 5 years. Some years you will severely kill your competition with oak species and other years you will only provide a fresh growth of forbes ... both cases being a benefit for your deer herd.
 
Looks good Kent, great pics too. I did a small spot in my timber for a food plot. I left the stumps about two foot high. I should have gone ground level or left them much taller because at two foot the veggy growth hides them and can cause troubles when atv's ride through.

My seven year old has the scars to prove it. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

Metal buckle on his helmet chin strap cut him when his chin hit the handlebars. Eight stitches I think. I be he doesn't ride through my plots anymore though. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
 
I've started girdling sycamore and poplar trees to open up for browse and to help the oaks. Is girdling enough to kill them? I haven't been using any chemicals to kill them.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've started girdling sycamore and poplar trees to open up for browse and to help the oaks. Is girdling enough to kill them? I haven't been using any chemicals to kill them. </div></div>

Wouldn't poplar be a good cash tree? I'm in the lumber industry, and we sell tons of poplar in home building.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You are probably encouraging the maple seedlings to grow by select cutting your oak without any other habitat work ... it's happenning all over Iowa. Most people select cut oak timber because they assume a clear cut or seed tree cut is bad. By openning up an oak stand just a little you let in just enough light to enhance the shade tolerant species (ie. maple) but not enough to provide good oak regen ... and I would hate to clear cut a mature stand of white oak too, they won't be back to that stage in our lifetime, but select logging in oak timber with no other management is the best way to replace an oak forest with other species. </div></div>

Some of the best advice and knowledge I've read. Farmland, you my friend know what you're talking about...thanks for offering up your knowledge.
 
Ghost has a beautiful timber there! Our company, IWHS, helped him out with 75% of the TSI work on his place. Ghost was very smart by initiating the TSI process with a Forest Stewardship Plan with goals assessed and outlined ahead of time. We worked with Ghost in marking and completing the TSI acres according to his chosen goals. All work completed goes through the state district forester as well. We understand Ghost's goals: because we are all serious big buck nuts as well!

As has been said, there is way more to TSI than just killing undesired species! Too, one has to take into consideration slope aspect, site index and overall health and vigor of each area of the forest, and component species, to best elect which species, and then, which specific crop trees to release based on chosen goals.

People fret big time when a crop tree species needs to be killed to release a potentially better crop tree. Don't fret! Keep in mind that crop trees need 3-4 (better -best) crown release for maximum growth potential and mast yield. 0,1 or 2 sided release means much slower growth and, often lower overall health, of the chosen nearby crop tree. What all this means is that one must kill fair-good oaks to release better oaks, very often, for example. A white oak with a 4 sided release is going to produce nearly twice the board footage of lumber in 10 years that a 0-2 sided released oak would have. Mast production is GREATLY increased as well, as mast production is directly related to both trunk and crown diameter.

Some posts above mention hard maple management/control within oak zones. The best methods are fire and understory release and possible site regeneration if needed, by hand. The best way to manage oak timber is to clear cut it when it is fully mature and then to manage the understory. There is cost-share funding available for hard maple intrusion in oak stands. Anyone can feel free to give me a call or shoot me an email if they'd like us to evaluate their site and help them get the funding desired.

Best,
Rich Waite
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The best way to manage oak timber is to clear cut it when it is fully mature and then to manage the understory. </div></div>

I assume you're talking money-wise...btw, I love the information available on the IWHS website, wish I could afford some of the land for sale.
 
Hi turtL,

No, not referring to money-wise on the mature oak woodlot management of clear cutting (although it is the best for that too). Oaks need full sunlight for optimal growth and one must remove the overstory trees to get good straight growth out of the understory seedlings. Spot removal of oaks often leads to high-grading, damaged younger stock and crooked growing trees along the edges of cut-out areas. Selective harvest can be done in oak stands but it isn't really the best method in pure oak stands for the future of oak regeneration quality of the site.

Best,
Rich Waite
 
Raven, everything I've learned has taught me that oaks are shade tolerant species, which is why (through natural timber succession) they eventually grow above the maples and "shade" them out.

I understand what you're saying about optimal growing conditions. I guess every situation has it's own unique application. I'm not a forester so I don't have all the information I need, I would like to learn more. I've worked for various Conservation Agencies and the IDNR and in positions like that people like to ask what they should do (assuming you must have all the answers)...ANYWAY I guess the last thing I would tell someone is to cut down all their oaks.
 
Oak is at best an intermediate shade tolerant species. Maples are much more shade tolerant and will completely out compete oaks given equal footing. Natural understory growth in an oak vs maple timber is quite different- when you start taking select trees you change the light intensity and growing conditions.
 
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