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More questions on trees

T

TimberPig

Active Member
Everybody must be getting itchy chainsaw fingers, lol.
I recognize the value and drawbacks to some trees, but others I'm not sure. I'm hoping you guys can educate me a little on a couple of them.

Hackberry- I usually leave these alone, but I'm not actually sure why. Do they have any wildlife or lumber value?

Shagbarks- I have girdled and hinged quite a few of these trees because they seem to create dense canopies that shade everything else out. Do you kill them all or just thin them out? They have no lumber value, correct?

Prickly Ash- I have read some posts where folks dont like this species. From what I can tell, it is a native and I assume it therefore isnt overly invasive. Now that cattle have been out of my timber for 4 years, I have some patches starting. What is the problem with this one?

Multiflora- I have plenty of this growing everywhere, not taking over, but not in short supply either. I kind of have mixed feelings on MFR since it does seem to make good cover although its aggravating to work around. Is it fair to say that a decent amount of MFR indicates a decent amount of sunlight hitting the forrest floor? I've noticed the floor seems quite bare in some of the pics I see posted.

The rest of my timber consists mainly of red and white oaks, some cherry and walnut, mulberry, and elms. I kill some of the elms, but dutch elm disease seems to keep them in check. Without the cattle, I'm starting to get some red cedar coming back, which is ok with me. The bastard of my timber is the Osage Orange. God, I hate those things. One thing I notice in my timber is that young oaks, smaller than 6"-8" DBH seem pretty rare. I dont know if thats due to the previous cattle and deer browse, or if they are being outcompeted by other trees.
 
From reading all the various posts you can see that everyone has different thoughts on what they leave or kill.

My thoughts are aways this...what are you goals??

If your managing for timber then there are more then just oaks that are worthy of leaving.

If you want very diversified timber/wildlife habitat then that will affect how you manage your woodlot.

For me it is very simple...for bedding areas I select a portion of my woodlot that does not contain oaks...and kill everything (trees) by tipping it over.

I find that if I leave any canopy it slows down or inhibits my goals of creating a thick, brushy enviroment.

The areas that I manage for timber (which is very little on my property)
I strive to kill everything but oaks other then the occasional oddity like a mulberry or a locust tree near a stand.

Each landowner must decide what is most important just as with prairie plantings...are you striving for the maximum deer habitat or are other things more or as important?

Hackberry has some wildlife value for a limted time because it produces berries.

In a bedding area or next to an oak...it would die.

Shagbark Hickory just has no value to me personally, however if I had huge hickories they would have some timber value.

I don't...so they die

The Ashes are going to die from the Emerald Ash Borer anyway
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MFR is great wildlife cover IMO even though it is miserable nasty stuff.

Rose Rosette Disease is killing it now and in perhaps 10 years we may have little left...which would be hard to believe today.

Working with your forester is always the best bet but they are looking at it more from a timber value and less from the standpoint many of us are... which is top quality deer habitat.
 
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... Shagbarks- I have girdled and hinged quite a few of these trees because they seem to create dense canopies that shade everything else out. Do you kill them all or just thin them out? They have no lumber value, correct?

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We have a friend that wants all the hickory boards he can get right now, but unfortunately we don't have any sawed up yet ...

Almost any wood is marketable to the right person ... just depends if you are willing to spend the time and find the market ... sometimes it is worth it, sometimes it is not.

I would guess your oak regen is lacking because of browse pressure and limited sunlight.

Hackberry, cherry, osage orange, and cedar are all great wildlife trees but I usually don't leave them over an oak, but it depends on the situation.

In my opinion there is no blanket TSI prescription, there are general principles to follow but almost every site has a different set of circumstances that likely influence what trees should be left. In some situations I have cut walnut and oak and left the cedar ... just depends on the management objective for the area you are treating.

I get the impression all the posts about TSI has got many thinking they need to be managing their timber, which is great, but like I said in another post, if you do not understand forest management and have a good ability to identify trees, you should seek some professional help. Cutting trees without a good understanding of what you are cutting or why you are cutting them could lead to some serious regrets down the road.
 
Quote by Timberpig,
Multiflora- I have plenty of this growing everywhere, not taking over, but not in short supply either. I kind of have mixed feelings on MFR since it does seem to make good cover although its aggravating to work around. Is it fair to say that a decent amount of MFR indicates a decent amount of sunlight hitting the forrest floor? I've noticed the floor seems quite bare in some of the pics I see posted.

I question as to whether I want this in areas I am letting grow into cover. I know that some of the best and most productive places I have ever hunted were overgrown with this to the point of crawling thru if even penetrable. I have it starting to show up in areas set for cover. Good to let it go wild or nip it in the bud?
 
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The bastard of my timber is the Osage Orange.

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If you have any sections of these trees 60 inches long or better I would be interested in taking them off your hands. Depending on the twists in the section they can be used for bow staves. Working on my second Osage selfbow for the year. Seriously if your interested shoot me a message!

N9BOW
 
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My thoughts are aways this...what are you goals??

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Good question. I guess at this point my goal is 90% wildlife cover and food production. I'm not particularly interested in harvesting any of it, but you never know when the price of something is going to go through the roof. Example: $4 corn.
What I want is a good amount of diversity, while maintaining a decent population of desirable trees, particularly oaks. I've seen some timbers that are great wildlife cover, but consist of almost entirely junk trees and MFR. Conversly, I have seen some that are beautiful stands of oaks, but are a monoculture and devoid of younger trees of any species and lack any cover for wildlife. I just dont want my property to end up as either of those things. For example, there is a 5 acre area in a nearby timber that is almost entirely made up of shagbarks, which I presume have shaded out everything else.
Minus the osage, I am pretty content with the make up of my timber as it is right now. The lack of young oaks is what concerns me for the future. If drastic measures are required to regenerate oaks, I'm not sure I'm excited about that either.
I wish one of you gurus lived close, so that I could get the first hand opinion of someone without an agenda that I dont care about.

N9Bow, you have a PM.
 
This is a great discussion and many very good points have been made.

I've been doing tsi for about 15 years. I periodically go back to study the results. Every year I learn new things.

My goals are pretty similar to yours. I am aiming for a diversified habitat maximizing cover and food for a variety of wildlife.

I especially protect good food producers such as oak, black cherry, wild plum and mulberry.

I try to maintain diversity in any given area. You never know what disease will come along next and wipe out a specie. I try to promote development of the best in any given spot. In one place I may be killing shingle oak to free red or white oak which I have less of. Another spot I may be hinging hickory and elm to free a lone shingle oak. In a third spot I may wish I had even a hickory to free because it is all junk such as black locust.

I try to make some spots very thick some relatively open underneath and with a heavy canopy and other spots impenitrable. I watch what I drop where and which way because it impacts travel patterns.

I never pass an opportunity to walk the woods with a forester, naturalist, biologist or experienced bowhunter and pick their brains for ideas and new information.

I've killed trees I wish I hadn't and left trees stand I wish I'd killed. No two people would do identical tsi on a forest of any size. If I could turn back the clock and redo a section of woods I'd probably do it a little different each time because I learn as I go.

The oak regeneration situation may be due to several factors. Oak need sunlight to regenerate so you need to let in sunlight. High numbers of turkey and deer can rapidly deplete a seed source. Browsing deer can be very tough on oak seedlings.

One thing I do when trying to decide how to handle a given area is go around with various colors of plastic ribbon or a marking can of paint and start marking trees. Then I can stand back and visualize what it will look like if I cut certain trees.

I'd recommend a little caution and a lot of fore thought before grabbing the chain saw. Making a mistake while weeding a garden is one thing but cutting down trees three times your age without a well thought out plan will have long lasting results.
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Make wise decisions and you will have a positive impact on that forest for generations.
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Old Buck
 
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You never know what disease will come along next and wipe out a specie.

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That is a very good point...already disease is threatening our oaks. It seems like every year some new bug or disease is working it's way into our woodlands.

To bad there isn't a locust "bug"...
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There's some good thoughts posted on this topic, I appreciate the input. I think for this year, most everything is pretty safe. By the time I get all the ice storm damage cleaned up I think I'll be about chainsawed out.

I'm still curious about the Prickley Ash though, if anybody has any opinions there.
 
I have read about it's native uses (I think it is referred to as the toothache tree), but I'm concerned at my place about them getting too big and dense to manage. I hope to hire a fall burn this year to knock them back and then start a cycle of timber burns. I have heard a fall burn is hotter and will hurt them more. the big question is if I can hire a fall fire burnn team from PF or something like this, but that is my plan. Too many of them to cut and brush by hand at my place.
 
Forgot about that part of the question. To my knowledge they provide little benefit to wildlife while taking up water, nutrients and sunlight that could be used by more beneficial understory species and seedlings such as oak which need sunlight to survive. I have found that I can usually break the main stem fairly easily with one hand and apply tordon rtu with the other. I usually eliminate prickly ash from an area before opening the canopy via logging or tsi. Otherwise it can really take off and dominate an area.

Back on oaks, I'd recommend as much of a balance of diverse species and groups as you can get. Each specie tends to have a different pattern of acorn production. Therefore when there aren't many acorns of one kind you have a chance of a good crop from another. The various white oaks seem to be favored by deer but are more suseptible to oak wilt. Most types of red oak are more oak wilt resistant. True white oak is a favorite of deer but they often drop very early. I love to find a grove of red or black oak dropping acorns in early November. Shingle oak which is mostly in SE Iowa is frowned upon by many foresters because it doesn't self prune (loose lower limbs) as it grows therefore usually isn't of much value for lumber. I love them because especially the younger ones hold their leaves until March providing great cover. They also tend to produce good acorn crops more often than many other types of oaks.

Short answer, diversity is good!
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Locust,

I've used a backpack sprayer with Garlon used as a basal spray at this time of the year to selectively kill undesirable shrubs, prickly ash etc. I have the kind you pump with one arm while carefully spraying with a wand in the other. As long as you can recognize everything without leaves right now is a great time to do some work.
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Old Buck
 
Sounds like maybe I should give the Prickly Ash a little attention while I'm terrorizing the Osage with Crossbow this year. Thanks Larry.
 
Is Crossbow good stuff? I saw some at farm store the other night. Be easier than trying to cut so darn many little trash trees down.
 
I've been using Crossbow on smaller Osage trees, maybe up to 8'-9' tall. I've been mixing around 3oz/gal of water and using it as a foliar spray. It's doing the job on the osage, which is a pretty dang tough tree. It also has killed small locust and MFR is no problem. Wont kill the grass around it either.
I tried RU and 2-4D on the osage and all it did was kill the top growth, but new shoots came right back up. Its half way cheap, at around $65/gal. Havent tried it as a basal spray, but I believe the label says it will work on some species.
 
I killed a whole bunch of mesquite trees by spraying a foot or so of the trunks with a "new to me'product called Remedy. It did an awsome job.Seems to be a brush killer, but I do NOT know of Iowa recommendations.
 
I killed a whole bunch of mesquite by spraying a foot or so of the trunks with a "new to me'product called Remedy. It did an awsome job.Seems to be a brush killer, but I do NOT know of Iowa recommendations.
 
Just to clarify something that was noted above: trees in the red oak group are far more susceptible to oak wilt than are those in the white oak group. Black, pin, shingle and red are all very susceptible to the disease -- these are all red oak varieties.

There is cost-share available -- for up to 75% of the total cost -- for much of what is talked about here regarding understory enhancement projects. This includes prickly ash, and other understory species eradication, and seeding those areas back into hardwoods in the absence of native regeneration. If anyone needs any info on forest cost-share help, just let me know. Also keep in mind that starting these projects before any applied for cost-share dollars come in, can negate the funding. Understory release, as discussed here, and done thoroughly and properly, is seriously hard work and most folks are capable of 1-3 acres per long day, using chainsaw and squirt bottle means. Getting cost-share help makes good sense to me.....

Best,
Rich
 
I know it will vary from job to job, but what is the "average" cost per acre for the run of the mill T.S.I. project? What is the minimum acres allowed in the cost share program? Thanks.
 
I billed $100/acre doing the labor myself so I got $75/acre cost share. Have heard $100-$200/acre hiring it done, I think the district forester might have something to say about approved rates in your area.
Understory release is a whole different story- very labor intensive.
 
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