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Native Warm Season Grass

Re: NWSG - using Atrazine the 2nd year

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> (I can’t hit with Atrazine because of Indian Grass). </div></div>

Au contraire my friend... atrazine is only detrimental to Indiangrass in the seeding year. In otherwords once the Indiangrass has germinated and growing then it's no longer a problem.

In the same manner Plateau (Journey) will keep switchgrass from emerging it's seeding year it's not as harmful once established.

So the second year you have more options which can be real helpful. You can use atrazine on the NWSG mix you have planted without a problem.

If you had a NWSG mix with lots of forbs (wildflowers) then Plateau would be a better option and 2-4D would be out of the question. Managing for tallgrasses alone is much easier!

I also would avoid mowing...if you have any broadleaf problems, then kill them with 2-4D later in the summer. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
Re: NWSG - using Atrazine the 2nd year

Great thing to know Dbltree!!! I did not know that. Ok, since all 3 will be safe with Atrazine, would you PLAN on spraying the atrazine if you were me based on the scenario, timing and condition of my planting this last spring?

I know for sure I am going to spray the CIR only areas with round-up and Atrazine, part of reason is because I seeded some CIR this spring and I am sure some won't germinate til spring '09, SO- those areas are going to get BLASTED with 4 lbs/acre of atrazine + round-up. BUT- I know the Indian and BB stem did in fact germinate this spring. They could possibly do very well without spraying since they have DECENT sunlight RIGHT NOW even with the thick but shorter foxtail (about 18-24" tall BUT it does have seeds on it). What do you think? Spray the Indian, BB and CIR mix with Atrazine/Round-up next spring or NO?

Awesome resource here and appreciate everything!!!! (so will the deer and critters!!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif )
 
Re: NWSG - using Atrazine the 2nd year

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you think? Spray the Indian, BB and CIR mix with Atrazine/Round-up next spring or NO?
</div></div>

Spraying might allow the NWSG to thicken and flourish faster so it would help but not an absolute must either.

No mowing should be needed that way either...

I took this pic standing in a mix of CIR and Big Bluestem, standing out in looking at my truck perhaps 20 yards away...gives you an idea what a big ole buck feels like hiding in that stuff... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

CIRnBB.jpg


Some end of August Indiangrass...

8-26Indiangrass.jpg


and a shot standing in the NWSG, holding that camera at eye level...even if a deer is running thru this stuff...he's safe from unless someone is lobbing hand grenades!!

8-26Prairie.jpg


Prairies are well worth the time and effort it takes to establish them no matter if it's a 1/4 acre in the back yard or a whole farm.

Awesome stuff! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
Re: Plateau/Journey herbicide for NWSG

A friend of mine just back from the Lansing IOWA area. Was at a DNR site. The DNR there SAID "when we plant native grasses- we PREPARE the area by planting Round-Up Ready Beans for THREE YEARS!!!!" They claimed they did that to really FRY the area or something and get the area ready to seed. Is this not necessary? Overkill? Something anyone here should consider?

*I just "Fried" Brome grass with round-up with ONE SPRAYING after mowing- very little Prep compared with 3 years of Nuclear attacks on ground. Big difference, hoping I am ok BUT wanting to learn at the same time!!!????!!!
 
Re: Plateau/Journey herbicide for NWSG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The DNR there SAID "when we plant native grasses- we PREPARE the area by planting Round-Up Ready Beans for THREE YEARS!!!!" They claimed they did that to really FRY the area or something and get the area ready to seed. Is this not necessary? Overkill? Something anyone here should consider?
</div></div>

I have mentioned many times in this thread and the switchgrass thread that planting RR soybeans ahead of native grasses is an excellent way of preparing the site.

Three years however is a little over kill IMO....you can plant them for 30 years and nuke the livin' daylights out of it and still...weeds will be back!

KILL KILL KILL the brome this fall...kill it twice if you have to and kill it again in the spring if need be...and you'll still have weeds...just not brome.

What your doing is fine Skip...just "don't spare the horses" as they say...nuke it hard! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
Re: Native Warm Season Grass What if I don't burn?

There is a good article posted in Prairie Source about the merits of burning NWSG.

For anyone who is managing a stand of NWSG or interested in starting one, I would suggest reading the article in full.

Studies such as this one might be a little "blah blah" but if your interested in using NWSG stands to hold big whitetails then managing it correctly is important.

Just a few key points from the article...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">D.A. Dokken in Proceedings of the Fifth Midwest Prairie Conference reported: on deep soil, stem density of big bluestem was significantly reduced in one year without burning, and for indiangrass and sideoats grama in 3 years. Kentucky bluegrass, in contrast increased in stem density with time after burning. </div></div>

Now that point should make you instantly aware of the need for timely burns!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gibson reported that both the percentage of and cover of C4 species (native warm season grasses) and all grasses decrease as the prairie remains unburnt. An interesting study by Gilliam looked at the interception of precipitation by grass canopies. The mean interception for the study period was 38 and 19% for the unburned and burned prairie, respectively, indicating that throughfall volume in burned prairie was approximately 1.3 times that of unburned prairie on a annual basis. Thus, water availability for plant uptake may be initially higher in burned prairie, especially early in the growing season. Briggs in 1992 found that without burning and with adequate moisture levels, the number of trees increased over a five year period by over 60%, while in an area burned annually the number of trees decreased.

</div></div>

So the prairie can soak up more soil moisture and invasive trees are held to a minimum by burning.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Knapp, now studying the effects of detritus accumulation on productivity, reported a strong negative impact of plant litter production on subsequent ecosystem function. These deleterious effects on plant litter include: a reduction in available light energy to the system; an alteration of the microclimate and physiology of emerging shoots such that carbon dioxide uptake is reduced; a conversion of immediately usable inorganic nitrogen in rainwater to less readily available organic nitrogen in microbial biomass; an inhibition of nitrogen fixation by free living microbes and blue-green algae as a result of phosphorus and/or light limitation; and a reduction in soil temperatures, which diminishes root productivity, invertebrate activities, and probably microbial activities as well. Fire and grazing therefore become necessary, integral ecosystem processes that maintain productivity of tallgrass prairie by the removal of standing and fallen litter.
</div></div>

That's a mouth full but it helps us understand how intricately delicate the NWSG ecosystem is and how reliant it is upon burning.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Upland and lowland prairie communities burned in spring at intervals from 1 to 11 years were constantly dominated by big bluestem. With increasing intervals between fires other dominant warm season grasses, little bluestem and indiangrass, had decreased cover, whereas forbs and woody species had increased cover. Aboveground biomass was higher on an annual burned versus unburned lowland prairie, due to stimulated grass production. Sites unburned for 10 or more years were converting to woodlands.
</div></div>

Don't burn and the prairie just...fades away......

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What effect does not burning have on native grasses? In the absence of any management at all, during the first 3 to 4 years it will provide some good wildlife habitat.

From the 4th year on it will be too thick for most wildlife and over time, probably 10 years or less, the native grasses will be overrun with cool season grasses and trees.

Grazing and/or haying can negate or delay some of the effects mentioned, but not all. The physiological processes which depend upon burning cannot be replaced by any management means.
</div></div>

If the you are unable to burn the article notes some things that can be helpful to keep your prairie viable longer although it will be difficult to maintain it long term.

Just another point made to allow for burn lanes when planning and planting your new prarie.

I just love my prairie this time of year!

NWSGmix9-26.jpg


The Indiangrass is especially beautiful right now...

Indiangrass9-26.jpg


It's like a "wall"...a jungle that deer just "fade away" into it and I love watching them pop out of it into the foodplots...

WallofNWSG.jpg


Our forests and prairies are natural habitat that can be managed to the fullest to enhance it for whitetails and other wildlife. All of this with a very minimum of inputs compared to our food plots.

Burning is a very effective and natural tool that increases browse and cover in both timber and fields...learn to use that tool safely to give your land the edge in holding mature whitetails and making your property beautiful as well. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
Re: Plateau/Journey herbicide for NWSG

I thought Id share a pic of some cave in rock I drilled this march. I drilled it directly into pastured brome and sprayed the brome with Atrazine and Round up in April.
switchgrass_002.JPG
 
Re: Plateau/Journey herbicide for NWSG

I don't have pictures to prove it, but I had 16-17 acres put in with cost share 3 years ago that was a CP25 mix. I hope to get pictures this fall to post. I had Rich/Raven from Iowa Habitats plant for me and this was the year I contracted a burn through PF. I got down this weekend and it looked just incredible. Very dominated by big blue, but a pretty time of year. The burn this year really made the fields take off. my question is I have about 5 acres left to "play with". I'd like to put CIR in that field which is currently alfalfa, but is being burned down by a neighbor who no longer will hay. Based on my success in contracting this work(I don't have the equipment) I was thinking getting either PF or Iowa Habitat to drill it in if the job was big enough for them. Although, I think PF would like to put in a mix vs. straight CIR. A thread on the forum suggests folks have great success with frost seeding and spraying with atrazine. I'd like to save the money, but for those of you that maybe have tried both, what would you recommend I do....frost seed or get it drilled if money wasn't a factor? I haven't had good success in test areas frost seeding CP25 mixes so I'm a bit hesitant of doing CIR on my own.
 
Re: Plateau/Journey herbicide for NWSG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">frost seed or get it drilled if money wasn't a factor? </div></div>

You can still frost seed even with a drill and if you furnish the seed then PF should plant what ever you ask them too.

The natives mixes are great but remember they are considering that your looking for top quality deer bedding...they are looking at it from the merits for upland birds (as they should)

You will find over time that Indiangrass may dominate the Big Bluestem...prairies change over time....

I just run the drill on frozen bare ground in late winter which just allows you to place the seed more accurately.

All of my NWSG was frost seeded and I have never seen it fail unless proper preperation wasn't done first, namely nuking sod the fall before with roundup.

If it's mowed close and killed first then frost seeding is a piece a cake either broadcast or drilled.

Atrazine the following spring just allows for great weed control and quicker growth of your CIR. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
Re: Plateau/Journey herbicide for NWSG

Iowa Habitat Frost Seeded 5 acres of CIR on what was harvested corn this spring. It is a great first year stand but foxtail became a bit of a problem. I mowed once and that pushed it back and the only other set back was the guy I have hay my field cut two big swaths through it (after I told him to watch the switch). In any case, it is coming up pretty well frost seeded!
 
Re: Plateau/Journey herbicide for NWSG

interesting story huntyak - I had the same thing happen to me which is one of the reasons the alfalfa/hay guy that I let on this ground won't be there next year. Thanks for the input, I think I'll just go with straigh drop/frost seeding (if the stock market keeps going down that will be my only option) and sprying with atrazine in the spring and see how it goes. I think I officially have the sickness.
 
Re: Plateau/Journey herbicide for NWSG

I sprayed some Brome grass twice, the last spraying was a few weeks ago. It was FRIED. now, I notice some small green grass that has come up in the last couple weeks- pretty thick in some areas. 2 part question

-With CIR switch ONLY, I should be OK because I'll spray round-up and ATRAZINE so that cool season grass that has sprouted will be fried next season right?

-My bigger concern is if I plant another area of it with CP-25 OR possibly some Indian/BB stem. I can't use Atrazine in this case. What can I do about this new tiny grass that's in there for next spring? (and to be honest I have stored my sprayer for this year already). Anything I can do early next spring? Should I plant LATER so I can hit it with round-up before seeding when stuff greens up in spring?
 
It won't matter when you plant the NWSG it still is slow to germinate which gives you several weeks early in April to nuke it again with RUP.

No matter what you do, without residual the "green stuff" is going to aggravate you but it's not the end of the world either.

I haven't put my sprayer away Skip...should I come over about Nov. 1st and hit it again for you? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
 
Sounds good. I think many of the forbs will come up early SO I'll just spray right before I plant or something if I do cp-25

Sorry for additionals....

-Will Atrazine kill foxtail?

-I noticed UNLIKE bb stem that INDIAN GRASS has tons of seeds at the end of that feather like top. It would seem like it would not take long at all to collect a big bag of that seed. Could I go out now and collect that seed and does that sound reasonable compared to how difficult BB Stem is to collect?

THANKS!!!!
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sligh1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds good. I think many of the forbs will come up early SO I'll just spray right before I plant or something if I do cp-25

Sorry for additionals....

-Will Atrazine kill foxtail?

-I noticed UNLIKE bb stem that INDIAN GRASS has tons of seeds at the end of that feather like top. It would seem like it would not take long at all to collect a big bag of that seed. Could I go out now and collect that seed and does that sound reasonable compared to how difficult BB Stem is to collect?

THANKS!!!! </div></div>

Atrazine will control foxtail by preventing seed from germinating (if it is applied at heavy enough rates)

Your very right about collecting NWSG seed and many prairies have been established by groups of volunteers gathering seed heads which are later planted.

Even Big Bluestem can be harvested by snipping off the seed heads. I have a some wild (native) BB that has been spreading via wind blown seed from across the road, into the ditch and into my fields.

Pretty amazing since the ditch never gets burned, mowed or sprayed! I have bothe Indiangrass and Big bluestem coming up around the edge of my yard and I have no idea where it came from, just native seed that without pasturing and cropping has a chance to grow.

Again...no mowing, burning or spraying! So no worries if your weed kill isn't perfect...it will grow! Give it a helping hand and it will just grow faster /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Here's some links to groups that have collected NWSG seed and started new prairies (or expanded them) Everyone can start even a small backyard prairie!

Native Grass Seed Collection

Native Grass Community

Developing Techniques to Produce Native Warm Grasses

Reseeding NWSG

Create Your Own Naturescape

HARVESTING NATIVE GRASSES AND FORBS

Tips on Reconstructing a Prairie

Iowa Native Prairie Plants
 
Re: Plateau/Journey herbicide for NWSG

One of the NWSG seed dealers recommended DUAL for my plantings that I drilled in last spring (08) (and they were mowed). I have some ALL CIR plantings. I also have some mixes of BB stem, Indian and CIR all together. Would you ever suggest this? Would you use OVER atrazine in any case OR in conjunction with atrazine?
*I read some on Dual in the Heribicide thread.
 
Re: Plateau/Journey herbicide for NWSG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sligh1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One of the NWSG seed dealers recommended DUAL for my plantings that I drilled in last spring (08) (and they were mowed). I have some ALL CIR plantings. I also have some mixes of BB stem, Indian and CIR all together. Would you ever suggest this? Would you use OVER atrazine in any case OR in conjunction with atrazine?
*I read some on Dual in the Heribicide thread. </div></div>


Without seed treatment I think the use of Dual Magnum would cause significant injury to NWSG seedlings.

From this link: Great Lakes Plant Solutions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seed treatments for protection of warm season grasses against herbicide injury.

Warm season grasses, such as switchgrass and big bluestem, are affected by grass weed competition during
seeding and early establishment. There are few herbicides available for newly seeded warm season grasses that
will selectively control annual grass weeds.


A chemical seed coating product is available to protect grain sorghum
from injury to several pre-emergence grass herbicides. The Michigan NRCS State Conservationist entered
into a testing agreement with Syngenta Crop Protection Company to evaluate the effectiveness of a
chemical seed coating to protect warm season grasses from pre-emergence grass herbicide injury.
Syngenta Crop Protection Company, the manufacturer of Concep III® seed treatment, applied the seed coating
to switchgrass and big bluestem seed.

The Rose Lake PMC is conducting greenhouse and field experiments to determine the effectiveness of that seed treatment for preventing injury from Dual II Magnum ® and Outlook®
herbicides. </div></div>

Sorghum seed is treated (or can be) so that it is "safened" to use Dual Magum II with it....could be that treatment is/can be/will be available for NWSG seed but I have not heard of it being used.

Dual II Magnum Label

Syngenta Product Info

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For weed control in corn, cotton, peanuts, pod crops, potatoes, safflowers, grain or forage sorghum,and soybeans </div></div>

If your looking for a safe effective residual herbicide for NWSG then I would look at Journey® Herbicide which was how this NWSG was originally started.

Plateau® Herbicide is the best (Journey is Plateau only it also contains Roundup)but it is difficult to find unless through Pheasants Forever.

Dual is a pre-emergence herbicide that one sprays on after planting but I'm not sure how it would perform on year old established grasses? Perhaps at that point it would not cause injury but I have not found a label that says so.

I am a Dual Magnum fan and combined with Atrazine they make a very effective corn herbicde combo. Nearly 300 bucks for 2 1/2 gallons so if you deicde to try some I would be willing to split some with you.

Some things one just has to try to find out but I don't want to say...spray the whole place because I just don't know.

I would also add this...Plateau at high rates is very injurious to switchgrass seedlings but I have used it to release established switchgrass with great results (just food for thought... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif )

General info on NWSG


These are a couple pics of totally wild native Big Bluestem that has started on my place where none existed before...without herbicides I might add... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

WildBigBluestem-1.jpg


NativeBigBluestem.jpg
 
Re: Plateau/Journey herbicide for NWSG

Some of the CIR seed will be germinating NEXT SPRING. The Indian and BB stem will have their 2nd growing season next spring. SO- I think I'll stick with Round-up and Atrazine from the above thoughts and prior reading I have done on this thread. I'm sure I'll post later on timing and double-check what I am going to spray.

Great thoughts and feedback, AMAZING! Thanks much!!!
 
Re: Plateau/Journey herbicide for NWSG

Here's what Osenbaugh's seed said about me spraying 20 acres of solid CIR and 9 acres of CIR/BB Stem/Indian Grass that will be on it's next growing season. Sound ok and do you agree?

"Skip Our first choice would be Bicep II Magnum at 2.1qts But this is a Dual and Atrazine mix which is restricted but it is the best choice per Acre. Second choice Would be Dual Magnum 2.6 pts per acre"

What timing would you suggest on spraying and would you up quantities at all or change anything considering what's planted???

Thanks!!!
 
Re: NWSG Herbicide

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bicep II Magnum at 2.1qts </div></div>

I think I would go with that Skip, not sure about changing the rate because I have not used Dual on native grass.

I have used it on corn and soybeans and it is very effective!

The difference is that you applying it to "stubble" so to speak, lots and lots of trash whereas applying a premergence herbicide directly to tilled soil is very effective.

This the only reason I apply higher rates to an existing stand of native grass, much of the herbicide will not even make soil contact.

It's difficult to say how much is absorbed into the "straw" and then is no longer effective by stopping tiny weed seeds from germinating.

Atrazine is a problem when applied year after year on crop fields where it then runs into our waterways, but applied one time to a field of switchgrass where roots and existing dead sod grass hold water...it's not a problem.

Check the labels for situations where Bicep or Dual is applied in a no-till or burndown situation to get a better idea, but I suspect you could safely up the rates... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
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