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Timber Stand Improvment

I have a question on Iowa wildlife cover. I have areas where I am keeping trees from getting large and producing shaded hardwood areas. If you do this, the land becomes choke-covered with all the UnGodly briars and rose-thistle crap, so dense I wonder how deer could push into it. Is that stuff really good for deer? I do keep some openings in the stuff so they can move through it in spots. Have to chop it down though every spring, as every summer it grows back.
 
Are they blackberries? Deer love those type areas, especially if you can mow a few trails where you want them to move thru at.

I have seen them bust out of some stuff that made me wonder how they got in there with any hair left :D
 
Yea,,blackberry,rose, all the terrible thorny stuff. I do make paths thru it, favorable, in eventually leading past my stands.
 
loneranger said:
Yea,,blackberry,rose, all the terrible thorny stuff. I do make paths thru it, favorable, in eventually leading past my stands.
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I like a good blackberry patch, deer and many other species utilize them. Multiflora rose is another story tho, I kill that every chance I get. :way:
 
Unfortunately where you find blackberry, you find rose. Those things are definantely creations of the Devil Himself!Stretching out all over to snag you from all angles. coming from Mi never saw anything like it. I also destroy it anytime I find it, or come upon it.
 
Question I was wondering.

If I am girdling or hinging the trees anyway why can't a person

keep on going with the TSI work??

The trees will be dying anyway.
 
risto2351 said:
Prickly ash is another that the deer seem to like but
I definitely hate.
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I have it in a lot of places on my farm, its a native so I let it be in most cases. Have killed it in some areas and its easy to pull out of the ground when the ground is moist.

Birds eat the berries.
 
briars and rose-thistle crap, so dense I wonder how deer could push into it. Is that stuff really good for deer?
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best stuff ever and they are impervious to the thorns...the more the better :way:

risto2351 said:
Question I was wondering.

If I am girdling or hinging the trees anyway why can't a person

keep on going with the TSI work??

The trees will be dying anyway.
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Not sure what your getting at Tony? If you are doing a crop tree release you can release the crop trees by either girdling or falling trees but I'm not sure exactly what your question is?
 
dbltree said:
best stuff ever and they are impervious to the thorns...the more the better :way:



Not sure what your getting at Tony? If you are doing a crop tree release you can release the crop trees by either girdling or falling trees but I'm not sure exactly what your question is?
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Sorry about that I reread it and it does sound confusing.

In my plan that my biologist has for me he does not want me to start girdling, hinging or cutting them down until the sap quits flowing. Since the sap is now flowing he does not want me to cut until this summer or fall/early winter.

I was going to do the above until the first of April but he wants me to wait?

I guess my question is since I am killing them or hinging them anyway why do I have to wait?
 
Not sure I understand that either Tony and is it possible to get another opinion. Hard to do if he is the one signing off on project though.
 
huntyak said:
Not sure I understand that either Tony and is it possible to get another opinion. Hard to do if he is the one signing off on project though.
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I guess the best way to find out is to just ask him.

I will let you know what I find out.
 
risto2351 said:
I guess the best way to find out is to just ask him.

I will let you know what I find out.
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Question I asked:

Good morning !!

One question that I do have for you.

If I am girdling, hinging, and cutting down certain trees to release the crop trees,

and for aspen regeneration why can't I continue on?

The trees are gonna die anyway which is what we want?

I know I will not be able to get it all completed this spring but thought I could get

a lot completed before turkey hunting starts?

I guess I am confused whty I have to wait until summer or late fall / winter.

REPLY:

You are correct, if you are crop tree releasing you can just about do that anytime. The idea there is you are not killing the tree you cut, but you are setting it back and allowing the crop tree to take advantage of that extra space.
The majority of what you are doing is trying to kill or take out the undesireable trees you want out of the stand (Aspen management and edge feathering). You are more than welcome to cut them this summer or fall. Right now all tree cutting with the intention of killing is on hold because of sap flow. The chemical you would apply would not be taken up by the tree because sap is moving upwards now and the chemical would be pushed out and the majority of trees you cut would re-sprout.
That said aspen should only be cut when they are dormant to get the best re-sprouting. I did notice a few aspen you guys missed out there, so those would ideally be left till this fall. Obvisouly you are not treating the aspen, but the response is best if the energy (sap) is in the roots when you cut and with sap flow on right now, the time window is closed for right now.


I guess no hunting season for me this fall. :mad:


My response:
I see what you are saying and can see where girdling would not work.

I would think that hinging the smaller trees though would not be a problem.

I really do not want to kill them because there will be some resprouting (browse) that will

grow for the deer for awhile before they die? That will keep cover for the deer plus release the trees?

Biologist response:
You could probably do that on the edge feathering and get away wih it (which is only a couple of areas). If you don't treat the trees they will be back and not die! The aspens will create a lot of browse. Also letting that light to the forest floor will give you a lot of browse and brush to come back, hopefully desireable.
If your going to the effort of cutting an undesireable, for these instances I would like to see that tree die, right away to allow room for desireables. I think the brush you will get back from even just brambles will put you better off in the long run. Plus you would limit the amount of box elder reseeding that would go on. Typically if you cut a tree and stress it (and it is still alive) its response can be to put out a lot more "fruit" or in this case seed.
 
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Very interesting but the first Ive heard of this as for years they have done TSI in my timber in the winter WITH the intention of girdling and KILLING trees that compete.

We hinged most of my timber and want them to survive, but many we girdled and expected them to die in time. Curious what Paul and others think about this theory of "No Cut to Kill" in March..........
 
Ok guys, you are bouncing around between about 3 different silvicultural practices here, and I think you are confusing the desired outcome of what each of them are intended to do. The 3 you are discussing are weed tree removal, crop tree release, and aspen recycling (early succession management).

Weed tree removal is applied when you are trying to remove all of the weed trees in an area, and likely try to promote the regeneration of desirable species such as oak, hickory, or walnut. In this case, you absolutely want the weed trees dead, leaving no chance for them to sprout and produce seed. Hinging does NOT fit into this practice. Hinged or even girdled trees have the potential to live for years/decades, and if they produce seed (likely with species such as boxelder, elm, ironwood, etc), you have wasted your time.

Crop tree release is essentially the manipulation of the amount of sunlight a tree gets. When you select your crop tree, you want to ensure that it is getting enough sunlight to grow at the fastest rate possible. In this case, when you cut down the competing trees, you dont care if it dies. Hinging DOES fit in this practice. The main thing is that you knock the competing tree back. It does not matter in this case if the hinged/girdled tree resprouts, as long as your crop tree is good to go.

Aspen recycling, also known as early successional management, is when you severe the main stem of an aspen with the intentions of making its root produce thousands of sprouts. Hinging does NOT fit in this practice. Especially the hinging of aspen trees. If you want to increase the available browse in this area you are MUCH better off by severing the tree and having it produce 1000 sprouts for the deer to nibble on, instead of the one hinged tree. Also, many times when an aspen is cut and not severed it will continue to suck life from the roots, prohibiting them from producing the lots of sprouts you are looking for. IMO Aspen recycling is much more attractive to deer than a few hinged trees. If you are in the NE 4 counties in Iowa, jump on the SWG program to get going on some aspen projects!

As far as when to cut trees to kill them, no matter how much chemical you put on a cut stump when the sap is flowing, it will not kill it. Like I said, it depends on which of the above practices you pick to tell what time of the year you can do the work. If you want to be sure the trees die, stick to cutting and treating in the dormant season. A side note: typically we are ok well into march treating stumps with chemical, but with this screwy weather, we are done till fall this year.
 
I had my local service forester out Wednesday. We walked my farm and started gathering information for a management plan. In Ohio we have the EQIP program ( Environmental Quality Incentives Program). We talked about many of the principals I have read about on this thread. He said the major issue I have are Invasive species. He said that removing the Grape Vines, Ailanthus, Bush Honey Suckle, Garlic Mustard and Japanese Barberry. Then after that is done we can look into doing group openings and tree release. He will be putting a management plan into writing and then I will submit it to my local extension office this fall and see if I am selected. From what Ive been told, nearly all that apply are selected.
 
Time to log

Paul, Thanks for all the time and effort you put in for us novices. I've had my place for twenty years and and done very little to make it better. Hunting has always been good. I've had to work and having a 100 miles separating me amd the farm makes it difficult and fuel expensive to spend time there without productive reason. Fortunately I'm going to be able to retire in the next year. I thank the Lord for the many blessings he has placed on me. I was blessed with a wonderful wife and great children who have made my passing through the world all that a man could hope for.I hope to be able to spend more time in the country improving the farm. I also have a son in law who is as enthusiastic about making things better as I am.

My guess is my ground might have been logged 30-35 years ago. I know I got a good crop of saleable timber, to I don't want to rape and pillage the ground in the process. I'm working with our DNR private lands biologist on a recommendation for a consulting professional forrester.
My goal is for a payday, but not at the expense of quality hunting habitat. I guess I should say that trophy antlers are really not on my radar. I really prefer deer meat to anything ,with the exception of an occasional pork steak or T bone. That said, I'm very happy to take 6 or 7, fat ,120 pound does. I've held back on the hinge cutting until after I see what I've got left after logging. And I'd like to log again in about 10 years. I'm guessing I could use the left over tops in the same way as hinge cutting to create bedding areas. I would want my logger to cooperate with me towards that end.

Do you have any suggestions regarding the pitfalls.

Mike
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I'm working with our DNR private lands biologist on a recommendation for a consulting professional forrester.
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That's it in a nutshell right there...let him/her know what you want and what your goals are as far as selective harvest and make sure they will mark the trees, get bids and monitor the harvest and make sure skid trails are repaired afterwords.

You are on the right track...take some before and after pics and keep us updated...:way:
 
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