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Good hunting areas “come & go” & some interesting IA #’s & facts...

Sligh1

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So- on vacation & doing a little “light reading” while my daughter was snoozing. I’ve been all over the Midwest in 25 years of hunting now. It’s just interesting to think of what I’ve seen happen across the Midwest in these 25 years, one hunter with one set of eyes who cares & pays attention.... I’ve seen huge swings of “good hunting” or high deer #’s and saw things do 180 degree turns in a matter of 3-4 years. Michigan has always been a poster child of the worst hunting I’ve seen over the most consistent period. But even amongst a whole state that’s a total joke- I’ve even witnessed fluctuations in that disaster-zone. I’ve lived in Michigan & understand what “disaster” looks like. In a funny or exaggerated (but true) way- it’s kind of like when I hear the people who fled communism explain how bad it was in their country & warn people here not to follow the same path! ;)

On the other side of watching “real good” going south fast.... watching 4-5 counties in Illinois I’ve hunted and watched for well over a decade- it’s INCREDIBLE to see how something can go from “so good” to “so bad” in such a small period of time. I quit hunting it about 10-ish years ago and I do have some friends who still luckily manage a few exceptions of good farms - but - it’s rare. Pike co had ZERO b&c entries several years in the past. Which - we all know b&c can also mean lots of guys don’t bother to enter - but for some counties in IL - that’s a staggering shift. Again- I do know some unique good farms but that’s anywhere if done right. You have had a whole year where close to zero B&C bucks are entered in the whole state of MO. That’s insane!!!!! 10x the cover & far more deer. The few guys who dream of maybe seeing a giant- some years that’s all it is for 99.99999% of hunters there (a dream) & may as well buy lottery tickets. That’s wasted potential & mismanagement at its finest!

I look at last B&C chart below- kinda laugh cause there’s so much more to the story..... WI & IA are always compared & called “really close”. BUT no one mentions the fact that WI has 16M acres of forest vs 2.8M in IA!! & the fact that WI has far more deer & hunters. Add the fact that about 2/3rd’s the counties in our state of Iowa really don’t have hardly any of the timber or hunting at all!!! Chart at bottom - a whole lot of almost “deer free counties” with mostly all wide open ag fields & little to no cover period.
To add to WI- I’ve also seen lots of WI go up and down to massive degrees for both: amounts of deer or mature bucks.
I’ve seen these delicate systems be turned upside down. I’ve seen the pendulum swing from “hunters all over” to “no one wants to hunt cause it sucks”. I’ve seen it in Iowa with pheasants in about a 5-7 year period where it took a nose dive off the cliff & never came back. I’ve seen blocks of deer hunting where you would see 50-60 deer a night & 3-4 years later - maybe see 5-6. I’ve witnessed that with my own eyes. Sure: disease, harsh winters, regulation change, ground be taken out of crp, whatever- lots that can happen to cause this.
**IF iowa ever “goes to crap”- I’ll bet my life it’ll be due to politicians & $ - making regulation & law changes - PERIOD. There’s part of the population that “gets this”. Then - you have folks that somehow miss it. You get groups driven by $ or hunters that don’t care & pick up the “next fun sport”.
It’s crazy to see what’s happened to many areas I thought were “amazing” in IL, WI & even a spot I went to when I was younger in KS. How they can be “so good” and in 3-4 years - turn into “I’m never going back” & some of them seem like they really never will come back. In 2001 - few IL farms I hunted were “dang good”. 2005 - “never going back” & my buddies still hunt there and 12 years later- they still suck. Sad.
I’ve seen, no joke, every 1 of 49 other state’s residence in Iowa to hunt for deer. 2.8m acres of timber out of 754 million acres of timber in the US. Folks with fertile states with 10x the timber want to come to Iowa. I’ve seen areas in Iowa go DOWN in quality over the years. I’ve always called it “the pike county effect”...... too many people, resource is exploited & every last good genetic 2 or 3 year old gets pummeled every year - total disaster in the end. I’ve seen areas go that direction in Iowa. Never like IL but I sometimes I wonder if something “big” will change and we follow those paths of disaster. I hope not and like to think not but I don’t know. I don’t know how many people realize what little timber we have here or have witnessed what other states have done to see massive swings in hunting quality & make up of the herd or resource. The pendulum has majorly swung for IL, Some of WI, parts of KS, etc. On other hand- the pendulum has swung in a positive direction for places like IN (vs what it used to be), Arkansas, Oklahoma, Kentucky, etc. - at least improvements.
Not a rant, not a break through, nothing new..... just a minute to think about the facts & think about how we manage things, pass hunting & resources to new hunters. Some thinking on how fast the dynamics can change where a generation enjoyed pheasant hunting where it hardly exists now. Or, the infinite states & counties in northeast US or Northern areas where there is no deer hunting left..... massive pockets where no one even “bothers” anymore. Places that “used to be” the “go to areas”. It’s just nuts to see how the system changes & how fast the pendulum can swing.

This is just my lil deer nerd tangent for today. Look at the data & for the tiny sliver we have
here- how much better it is. Or how easily it could change with just a few bad regulations or laws. Understand other states and the big picture so you can better understand how we can protect things here for generations.



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Great stuff Skip! Only thing I will add is Indiana WAS on the upswing. IN DNR allowed HPRs 2 years ago and book entries have taken a cliff dive. I saw the writing on the wall and it was a major factor why I left the state.


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Nothing in life lasts forever so enjoy Iowa while the getting is good.
All it would take is to change two laws ( I’ll make that three laws).

Skip- slam dunk statement our law makers will screw this state up if they could and they probably will in time all for money.
 
Any chance the downfalls of several of those states including MO is from unnatural selection? The best up and comers getting shot during the rut looking stupid leaving the genetically inferior deer to reproduce for years!!?? Very likely the same scenario for the golden triangle of IL, high expectations of several guided hunters that shot up the best deer genetically. If this is the case it will take YEARS of management and changes in regs to get back to the GOOD OLE DAYS! Changes in IS hunting regs increasing archery antlered tag numbers would do the same thing to Iowa IMO. Thoughts??
 
Good write up Skip, I totally agree that we have a fragile resource here and while many do understand that, plenty don't.
 
Those B&C numbers are so misleading. Lots of big ones never registered (except in Wisconsin)—:)

Don’t forget swamp and thick nasty river bottom for trophy bucks-best cover in My area of MN to produce big bucks
 
Stop cutting the trees, depleting habit & stop killing does. That's what I've noticed around here. It won't be long & Woodbury will be just the counties north & northeast of us.
 
Any chance the downfalls of several of those states including MO is from unnatural selection? The best up and comers getting shot during the rut looking stupid leaving the genetically inferior deer to reproduce for years!!?? Very likely the same scenario for the golden triangle of IL, high expectations of several guided hunters that shot up the best deer genetically. If this is the case it will take YEARS of management and changes in regs to get back to the GOOD OLE DAYS! Changes in IS hunting regs increasing archery antlered tag numbers would do the same thing to Iowa IMO. Thoughts??
100% u r dead on!!! People “think” the genetics are the same 15 miles into MO, MN or IL, whatever.... There’s still a few pockets of good gens that are “good” & genetics will always be somewhat fluid/travel but -overall, NO WAY!!! U have decades now of masses shooting all the best genetic bucks at 2 & 3 years old. U do this over & over - and over a large area & your quality will go down!!!! IL is the prime example of a guy forking out $3500 to shoot a buck- whacking the 150” 3 year old with kickers & passing the 120” 4 year old 7 point.
With that many hunters & decades of the same massacre - this does change the genetic pool!!!!! This is a little like a cow breeder- u think he lets his worst bull do all the breeding???? Nope- none of it. Over time- it changes the dynamics of his herd. You take a whole state with “some” or a few bucks that reach maturity but almost insure it’s never the best Genetic ones - that will take a toll & has. U let the 5 year old 115” 8 point keep going but rifle down the 160” 3 year old - over and over and over - it catches up. I do know a few awesome pockets in every state where some friends do great things but it’s far more difficult. Genetics will get modified over time and already have. “Top-ending” taking/killing - your best FOREST/TREES, DEER, CATTLE, whatever will create the least desireable left overs and outcome over enough TIME. There will always be good genetic strains left but they will become more infrequent no doubt!!! You are dead on!!!
 
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I have hunted public land in IN, IL, KS & IA extensively for 25 years. Big sample size. Legislators taking control away from the DNR in the first three of these states have spelled the ruin of the quality on public land in these. I bought an IL LL 12 years ago that I thought was a good investment. Quality has gone south steadily to the point where I really don't value that card any longer. And that was before politician "wanna be wildlife managers" brought us the gift of crossguns for everyone in the whole archery season. Last fall every NR truck I looked into at the I-80 hotels had crossgun cases inside. Our public land quality was horrendous even before this due to OTC nonresident tags. Last year I had an Iowa tag and milked it for all I could, passing routinely on mature bucks because I knew if I shot, I'd have to go back to pathetic Illinois. Some private land is still good, but the public is a dumpster fire. I agree with everything in the article above. Iowa is the lone candle in the night remaining. But just one greased politician away from being snuffed out.

I live in the far western Chicago suburbs now, but my wife is moving here from China July 12th, and we will be relocating to buy a home. No way in hell I will buy one in Illinois with our outrageous politician generated property taxes and prices. My work area includes all of Wisconsin & Illinois so I told my wife we will move to either NW Indiana or eastern Iowa. Taxes in both these areas are far lower than either WI or IL. I have a grandson in NW Indiana so that is where I expect we'll move. Analyzing options now.

Fight the good fight.
 
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100% u r dead on!!! People “think” the genetics are the same 15 miles into MO, MN or IL, whatever.... There’s still a few pockets of good gens that are “good” & genetics will always be somewhat fluid/travel but -overall, NO WAY!!! U have decades now of masses shooting all the best genetic bucks at 2 & 3 years old. U do this over & over - and over a large area & your quality will go down!!!! IL is the prime example of a guy forking out $3500 to shoot a buck- whacking the 150” 3 year old with kickers & passing the 120” 4 year old 7 point.
With that many hunters & decades of the same massacre - this does change the genetic pool!!!!! This is a little like a cow breeder- u think he lets his worst bull do all the breeding???? Nope- none of it. Over time- it changes the dynamics of his herd. You take a whole state with “some” or a few bucks that reach maturity but almost insure it’s never the best Genetic ones - that will take a toll & has. U let the 5 year old 115” 8 point keep going but rifle down the 160” 3 year old - over and over and over - it catches up. I do know a few awesome pockets in every state where some friends do great things but it’s far more difficult. Genetics will get modified over time and already have. “Top-ending” taking/killing - your best FOREST/TREES, DEER, CATTLE, whatever will create the least desireable left overs and outcome over enough TIME. There will always be good genetic strains left but they will become more infrequent no doubt!!! You are dead on!!![/QUOT


Unfortunately I think what you and I have stated is a BIG part of the difference between states and a positive change to regs (moving rifle out of rut) will not likely have a noticeable affect in our lifetimes but increase NR tags in Iowa substantially for more $ Iowa follows golden triangle of IL IMO!!!
 
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Very well put Skip. I think Winke's farm is a great example. He's had some dry years recently in terms of higher scoring mature bucks for sure and he owns over 1000 acres in prime time Iowa. EHD, perhaps too many does shot, too many good young bucks shot by neighbors, too many marginal scoring mature bucks that control territory, etc. It wasn't too long ago that he was chasing multiple mega giants each year.

And talk about misleading.....MN ranking number 2 in B and C entries is comical. While true a quick scan of the entry dates would show MN is a laughable shill of it's former self and will never get back to where it was. But oh the potential..............!!
 
Interesting write up. I don't know if I completely buy that shooting all the best 2-3 yr olds will completely change the genetics of the herd. I do think that will have an effect but other things need to occur in order for the genetics to change. I think there was a study on this that shows shooting cull bucks in hopes you will change herd dynamics is a myth. The problem is the scrub buck you just shot likely still has a mom, sister or other bred does out there that share the same gene pool. You can't tell which does have good and bad genetics. Therefore if all the best young bucks are shot and there is a doe massacre or disease that comes through that wipes a bunch of the doe population out then there is the potential for a big shift in herd genetic potential depending on the genetics of the deer that are left over.

I agree lawmakers can definitely screw up the hunting in IA and that is why hunters in the state and even non-residents who want to hunt the state should monitor their actions closely to prevent them from making detrimental changes. If they ever get rid of the NR draw or increase allotted tags by a large margin that will have a significant impact on the deer herd. As was in the OP IA doesn't have the cover to support as large of herds as some other states plus the quota prevents an overkill of the deer. The changes the lawmakers are making for gun season has me a little concerned but we will see how that plays out over the next few years.

Another big threat to IA is disease be it EHD or CWD. I hope and pray IA does not go down the road of some of the other states in how they manage CWD. MI has implemented some changes to help combat it that I think will make the hunting there even worse. WI is another example of a state that went overboard killing deer in hopes to contain CWD and its only spread and gotten worse. Killing off all the deer will not fix the problem as the prion is still in the soil and the testing is not near good enough. Anywhere they look for CWD they find it. IA has already seemed to show some interest in larger harvests in the areas where they have located CWD. Again this is a trend to monitor because if they start issuing more tags it will definitely impact the quality of hunting. Lots of issues facing deer management all over the country. Sportsmen need to voice their opinions and be heard so lawmakers don't take control of the management for us.

I wouldn't get too caught up with B&C entries either. Most Midwest states can produce them and yes there is skewed reporting in every state. WI does have a high number but a lot of those bucks hitting the 170 mark are also not fully mature either. Most guys (me included) would shoot a 170" 3 yr old. It's hard to pass up so it's not only IA where some good genetic bucks are harvested too early. I think if some of these other big buck states followed IA's management plan they would have even more entries and better quality. It will never happen, however, because its all about the money for a lot of these states.
 
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I agree with everything Skip said. I also believe nothing in life lasts forever, good or bad. However, politicians may change things but that change is initiated by something. .In Iowa's case it is the promotion of the state by Iowans themselves ie Kisky's, Lakosky's, Drury's, etc. Look only to the celebrity residents in zone 5 for the battle you all fight.
 
As of February of this year, George Moore scored 31 200" bucks from Oklahoma from the 2017 season. I'm not sure what his latest up to date numbers are. I would bet those folks don't enter them into the B&C to keep word down about the quality of bucks OK has killed the past 10 years.
 
Very well put Skip. I think Winke's farm is a great example. He's had some dry years recently in terms of higher scoring mature bucks for sure and he owns over 1000 acres in prime time Iowa. EHD, perhaps too many does shot, too many good young bucks shot by neighbors, too many marginal scoring mature bucks that control territory, etc. It wasn't too long ago that he was chasing multiple mega giants each year.

And talk about misleading.....MN ranking number 2 in B and C entries is comical. While true a quick scan of the entry dates would show MN is a laughable shill of it's former self and will never get back to where it was. But oh the potential..............!!

Minnesota just has to change the gun season, boom--unreal.
*Otter Tail County had 8 B&C registrations in recent years, and I know by pics, that is just a small percentage. I have a small farm up there, but if I had 320-640 in that area--wow look out--the genetics/body size/etc...added with amazing cover--it is the best stuff I have ever seen.
 
Minnesota just has to change the gun season, boom--unreal.
*Otter Tail County had 8 B&C registrations in recent years, and I know by pics, that is just a small percentage. I have a small farm up there, but if I had 320-640 in that area--wow look out--the genetics/body size/etc...added with amazing cover--it is the best stuff I have ever seen.

I don't know much about MN but it would not surprise me one bit. People think IA is the best state in the country for big bucks and yes they do have a lot of them but what helps IA is the regulations they have in place including when their bow seasons and gun seasons fall and the type of weapons they allow. As someone mentioned above the celebrity hunters market IA and everybody thinks there are booners behind every tree and that is just not reality. I said earlier and I still believe if other states regulated their deer herd like IA there would be a lot of good hunting in other states and the pressure on IA would lessen. I don't ever see that happening. IA is a great state because it allows more bucks to reach maturity whereas these other states don't get that same chance.
 
As of February of this year, George Moore scored 31 200" bucks from Oklahoma from the 2017 season. I'm not sure what his latest up to date numbers are. I would bet those folks don't enter them into the B&C to keep word down about the quality of bucks OK has killed the past 10 years.
31 200" bucks from 2017 only???? One scorer??
 
Anyone aware if any politician has been bought out by the crossgun manufacturers yet in Iowa? If not, it's only a matter of time. That poison is spreading like wildfire everywhere else. Politicians here think that winning an election is their ticket to fast coin. Here's the mentality they have:

http://ilhousedems.com/2017/03/29/scherer-pushes-for-passage-of-bill-to-expand-rights-of-sportsmen/

If this lady wasn't greased she is either retarded or was smoking weed & missed her high school history class. Either way, I'm embarrassed we have idiots like this representing our state.
 
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Imagine if Iowa went to only one buck a year? Many states could have the same hunting if they removed gun seasons out of November. In the past 5 years the number of quality bucks you see versus what you can shoot with a bow versus a rifle like Missouri, makes a huge difference.
 
Minnesota just has to change the gun season, boom--unreal.
*Otter Tail County had 8 B&C registrations in recent years, and I know by pics, that is just a small percentage. I have a small farm up there, but if I had 320-640 in that area--wow look out--the genetics/body size/etc...added with amazing cover--it is the best stuff I have ever seen.

Change the gun season and the culture. We are 25 years behind most surrounding states. Ottertail and SE are better than most areas for sure so you have that going for you.
Minnesota just has to change the gun season, boom--unreal.
*Otter Tail County had 8 B&C registrations in recent years, and I know by pics, that is just a small percentage. I have a small farm up there, but if I had 320-640 in that area--wow look out--the genetics/body size/etc...added with amazing cover--it is the best stuff I have ever seen.

I'd put the for sales sign up in MO if MN ever changed the gun season. However the cutlure here still sucks as does the DNR's deer management so I'm certain I'd have far fewer target animals to chase in MN.
 
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