450 Bushmaster AR Pistol in Late Muzzleloader

Discussion in 'Iowa Whitetail Conference' started by isu22andy, Dec 14, 2018.

  1. srjdsmith

    srjdsmith Member

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    Why is it “too much”? Too much energy? Too much range? What is too much about it?


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    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
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  3. Non-typ.

    Non-typ. Active Member

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    Won't matter in a few years any way. All your big bucks will be gone. Heard a guy at the gas station telling his buddy he shot six bucks himself during the gun season.
     
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  4. srjdsmith

    srjdsmith Member

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    Why would centerfire rifles be a bad thing?

    I understand allowing bows only during bow season- (even though some Dr.s will write a crossbow allowance for anyone with anything more than an ingrown hair on their shoulder).

    I understand allowing only ‘primitive’ weapons during certain other seasons- (even though bullets with modern technology, and shotgun primers, and powder in formed pellets, and scopes, and removable breeches, and .44 mag revolvers, and... are hardly ‘primitive’...).

    But “shotguns” with rifled barrels? And cantilevered scope mounts? And saboted bullets like Winchester XP3’s?

    I hear “Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!” (Some fool with a Remington 1100 shooting wildly at a running 4 point buck, probably) ALL the time. Why not one, accurate shot out of a bolt action rifle? Don’t want autos? Pennsylvania doesn’t allow them. Don’t want 7mm mag or .300 Win mag? There’s already a list of legal and illegal cartridges.

    Worried about ‘safety’? How far do you think that saboted .44 mag bullet out of a max loaded 12 ga will travel? How far will that same bullet travel out of a .50 cal ‘muzzle-loader’ in front of 200 grains of triple seven? Sorry but Iowa’s no rifle policy is about as relevant as a model A Ford.



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  5. Oct-Lull

    Oct-Lull Active Member

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    It's not the caliber itself. I love my 45/70 which is about 1900 fps. Shoots similar to a shotgun. 450 is faster and flatter for a longer distance. It's the AR platform I'm not a fan of for deer hunting. To many rounds down range going to far to fast. I'm not going to argue about it. Age old argument on here. After shot 1- 2 maybe you don't have a clear understanding of backdrop and who is down range. Pistol cartridges are fun, hate to see one gun ruin all that.

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  6. Oct-Lull

    Oct-Lull Active Member

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    I agree, I wish primitive weapon meant primitive weapon. I honestly just learned of the pistol in late muzzy season and think that strange. I don't care for the fact they allow smokeless muzzleloaders either I think it defeats the purpose. Might as well just call it late gun season and let anything go. Too many variables, how do you have a gun legal for sitting on stand but not for drives? The main issue is betterment and management of the herd is not top priority. Money is top priority. Now with CWD around and no real knowledge of what to do they are wanting deer killed, more the better. Pray we don't see the Minnesota CWD theory take hold here. That's a joke

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  7. srjdsmith

    srjdsmith Member

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    Not arguing. I agree with you on that. I just wanted to know what you meant by “too much”.

    I never minded Pennsylvania’s ‘no autoloaders’ policy when I hunted there- it makes sense. I had the most beautiful Ruger mod 77 in .243... (see, now you went and got me all misty eyed...) but when we moved to Iowa and stopped hunting Pennsylvania, I sold it and was forced to sling cannon balls out of a pheasant gun if I wanted to hunt deer in Iowa. Stupidest thing ever.

    I hunted this year with an AR in 450B. Only thing I could afford (had the lower and the upper cost less than $200 to build). Also, I use a 5 round mag, so I’m no more ‘Rambo’ than some farmer with a 6 shot Mossberg. By next year I’ll have a Ruger Ranch Rifle 450B, then we’ll both be happy.




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  8. Hardwood11

    Hardwood11 Well-Known Member

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    No you do not want rifles in Iowa!!

    Come to Northern MN and sit a week on great cover and you will find out what rifles (add in during rut)do to deer!
     
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  9. Ishi

    Ishi PMA Member

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    Very well said!
     
  10. bigbuckhunter88

    bigbuckhunter88 PMA Member

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    The ideas of rifles during Iowas gun season drives me nuts. The pistol cartridges are one thing, you get guys with rifles(and I'll include smokeless in this category) that spend the money on good equipment and the deer dont stand a chance. Cross the fence to be legal and the deer are in range. Plenty flat here and 1 mile sections would take the sport out of it. I'm also against it as a safety aspect. Bolt gun or semi auto doesnt matter to me. You're gonna have flatter shooting rounds and guys with tunnel vision and scopes shooting at running deer. You can change the regs but you will not change the culture. Theres another thread on here about a bunch of people moving to Iowa to deer hunt. They didnt pick Iowa in hopes of getting the regs changed. They picked it because the system has not yet been broken.
     
  11. srjdsmith

    srjdsmith Member

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    I just don’t think it’s the gun that’s to blame (we 2A people find ourselves saying that a lot, don’t we?).

    In the last 35 years I’ve shot several previously wounded deer and every time I silently curse the legislature for saddling us with cumbersome, inaccurate, inadequate deer guns. I’ve found lots of dead deer that were gut-shot or have a jaw shot off, and it’s partly the fault of people who don’t understand that slugs just aren’t an efficient, appropriate way to harvest deer. Whenever I hear some jack**s blasting away with his five-shot, smooth-bored, pheasant gun, I want to crawl into a fox hole until he’s done and I silently curse the legislature again...

    Easy answer; pass a law requiring single shot or bolt action (maybe also lever action) rifle and also list the allowed chamberings.


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  12. hillrunner

    hillrunner PMA Member

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    I don't think rifles will help much with that .
    A slug gun is a very accurate and efficient killer within it's effective range. You can't blame the gun for blown off jaws and gut shot deer. 90% of that is from blasting away at running deer or taking shots that are out of the gun or shooters effective range.
    Deer drives are part of the culture in Iowa and I don't think high powered rifles are very well suited for that kind of hunting.

    I'm fortunate to hunt in a low pressure area and am able to gun hunt deer that are moving naturally. If I could hold my 300 win mag for gun season, the deer wouldn't have a chance. I'd sit back 400-500 or maybe more yards away and take my pick .
    This debate will probably always be around. I know Iowa's regulations aren't perfect but I'm for leaving them alone. We have a pretty good thing here and I don't see any reason to change the formula.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
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  13. srjdsmith

    srjdsmith Member

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    Well, but that “blasting away” is the part I object to. And it would be solved by legislating guns that repeat slower. In that case, range and accuracy are no more problem than they are during muzzle-loader season.

    And, yes, I know that’s the culture- a culture I’m not a part of. I stand hunt, and I won’t ever be a part of a huge drive like these maniacs around here do. I also know you can’t really change that culture, so I’m just blowing off steam. Iowa deer hunters like that nonsense of once a year dusting off the trusty (rusty?) Remington 1100 or Gramp’s ol’ five-shot Browning and stuffing it full of slugs so you and 23 other guys can go gut-shoot a bunch of deer while trying not to blow someone’s leg off. If our system isn’t broken, it’s a real funny kind of fixed.

    So I’ll just switch to 450B and hope that they never realize that they’ve allowed a real rifle to slip through the cracks...


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  14. bigbuckhunter88

    bigbuckhunter88 PMA Member

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    What's the difference in a guy dumping 5 slugs at a running deer and being out of bullets by the time deer is say 100 yards away, and switching that to a bolt action rifle and having him launching bullets while the deer is 3 or 4 hundred yards away? Like you said, it's not the gun to blame. And personally adding more center fire rifles will bring nothing but a new set of problems along with the ones that already exist.
     
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  15. isu22andy

    isu22andy Active Member

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    I hunted in a group of 15 -28 guys at one time for about 3 years before it dwindled to 12 and slowly to nothing. Talk about a nerve racking feeling being the walkers.

    One thing Ive always found interesting is talking to guys in other parts of the state on the hunting during shotgun season. Over here I dont know one sole that sits in shotgun season in this county, not one. You flip on the VHF radio though , your gonna hear a comedy show of guys chasing deer with pickups and you know who it is and year after year after year... they never get caught. Its crazy lol.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  16. srjdsmith

    srjdsmith Member

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    [​IMG]


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  17. hotshott2289

    hotshott2289 Active Member

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    i wouldn't be sad if the party hunting went away. thats about the only part of gun season i have a problem with.. I do however get bothered when these firearms groups start getting involved in hunting legislation. That should be what we as Iowans want, not some national lobby group
     
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  18. sirrloin

    sirrloin PMA Member

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    I'd agree that a lot of these changes would be a lot more tolerable if drives went away. Nothing wrong with being able to ethically put the animal down cleaner.

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  19. Bowtech84

    Bowtech84 Well-Known Member

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    Shotgun hunters are the last true outdoorsmen. Out there earning it. You don’t need bait, box blinds, or to name deer like pets to kill them ethically. What’s so special about deer anyway? Why are they put on a pedestal compared to other critters? 99 percent of hunters have no problem shooting at a running coyote, squirrel, coon, rabbit, turkey etc, but if it’s a deer all of the sudden it’s unethical? I mainly do it to have a good time with friends. I spend plenty of time alone in the treestand enjoying nature during bow season. By the time gun season comes around I’m ready to get after them. I’ve gone years without even pulling the trigger. The ppl I personally know that are totally against shotgun hunting lack the friends to do it anyway. Might be correlation. #orangearmystrong


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  20. srjdsmith

    srjdsmith Member

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    Well, I don’t think most people would say that using a more effective weapon to kill a deer is unethical. I agree with you and that’s my point. It’s a big part of why I’d like to see Iowa legalize and normalize centerfire rifles.

    Those who think that mandating less effective weapons helps protect the population don’t understand how this works- that’s what licenses and seasons and quotas are for. We, apparently, want to see somewhere around 100,000 deer killed annually, so they issue licenses to try and make that happen. Why would more accurate weapons increase the harvest if the DNR issued licenses to get the harvest they want?

    Also, If someone thinks that more primitive weapons (bow, handgun, muzzleloader, even shotgun w/slugs) carry some kind of virtue, then they can go be a paragon of virtue and use them in their appropriate season (like you do and you seem to enjoy the challenge of it- they could learn something from you).

    You’ll never convince me that Iowa would be more “unsafe” if deer hunters were shooting bolt action .30-06’s. They certainly wouldn’t be shooting 3-4-5 shot barrages! Nor would the population suffer, because more often deer that are shot would be killed and retrieved and fewer wounded deer would escape to die while another deer gets killed and tagged. You’re right, it’s a question of ethics; and mandating that our most effective weapon will be a pheasant gun that slings 1 oz hunks of lead all over the county in rapid succession is pretty unethical. No, thanks, for myself I’ll choose to use the most effective (accurate, long range, expanding projectile, etc) weapon I can. In the past that was a .50cal muzzle loader and I could reliably make 150 yard shots with it (that’s about my personal max- not sure I’d attempt a 200+ yard shot). This year it was 450B- same 150 yard shot, 1 shot, two steps, one gut pile.

    But I do disagree with shooting at a running animal with single-projectile weapons under most circumstances. Shooting at moving game with shot is normal and can be done safely, but bullets and slugs are different.


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  21. Ishi

    Ishi PMA Member

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    On the centerfire rifle Garbo

    [​IMG]


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