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BOW GUYS HELP- 80 lbs bows & busting thru shoulders???...

Sligh1

Sligh1

Administrator
Staff member
So, I'm not a gear guy but I sure know a LOT of guys who hit shoulders and/or don't get penetration a "silly whitetail" should be getting blown through. A heck of a lot tougher than folks realize. "40 lbs will kill a whitetail, no problem!", I know, I know, heard it for years. Yep, perfectly placed, a .22 will, so, don't need that debate.
What I need help on..... Would the right combo of an 80 lbs bow and the right arrow bust through a shoulder????? Sorry, 65-70 lbs & a regular arrow generally WILL NOT DO IT.
Would something like these do it????? Please take cost out of issue & maybe could address brace height with Monster BUT those 2 are minor issues in this question for you gear guys. I simply wanna know, can it be done, you think??? I love Mathews but I want to keep things non-biased and I'm open to suggestions & most effective solution. Please look at 2 arrow ideas as well below.

Mathews, Monster Wake: http://mathewsinc.com/product/monster-wake/ Short brace height.
Mathews Safari: http://mathewsinc.com/product/safari/

Bowtech Insanity: http://www.bowtecharchery.com/#/productBreakdown?r=products_products&i=39

Elite: http://www.elitearchery.com/products/2015/energy-35.php

ARROWS...
Easton Full Metal Jacket: http://www.eastonhunting.com/products/arrows/full-metal-jacket

Victory VAP's: http://www.victoryarchery.com/vap_hunting

Let's say 80 lbs with a heck of an arrow and "good broadhead" of average make/model (I know that leaves a lot open to debate on broadheads) at 15-20 yard shot - right in the shoulder blade, can it be blown through?????
 
Don't care what bow you prefer. Get a good strong arrow. Build it with a High FOC and you will get enough kinetic energy to blow through a shoulder. I have seen a 50lb bow with Full Metal Jacket arrows with brass insert and a 75 or 100 grain cut on contact BH get 10" of penetration at 10 yds from a blind.

I am going back to regular BHs this next year with a heavy arrow. I may lose some distance but know that I should be able to get great penetration.
 
The bone part of the shoulder blade is only the size of your hand with your fingers held tight. That's a fairly small target to hit. I would think a small steel tipped fixed broadhead would be your best bet with the FMJ arrow. I think the odds would be better to shoot a big mechanical and aim back a little on a broadside shot.

 
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tslc said:
The bone part of the shoulder blade is only the size of your hand with your fingers held tight. That's a fairly small target to hit. I would think a small steel tipped fixed broadhead would be your best bet with the FMJ arrow. I think the odds would be better to shoot a big mechanical and aim back a little on a broadside shot.
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I agree with that too. one deer I shot this year I hit at maybe 15-20 yards 8" behind shoulder & got 10" of penetration with a 70 lbs bow. that should have been a complete pass through. I did not hit shoulders, avoid them BUT i want to plan for the unexpected PLUS I do not see the penetration in big whitetails anyone claims to expect SO I want more penetration period. I see it ALL THE TIME where guys don't get penetration they should expect.
 
I'm no scientist on kinetic energy and arrow weight and all that, but I do have a story.

Once upon a time... I was hunting with my trusty old 70lb PSE and shooting easton XX75 aluminums with 125 grain 3 blade muzzys on the business end. Buck walks by. Stops broadside at 25 yards. I shoot. Arrow hits a few inches forward from the spot I picked. WHACK!!! Was the noise to be heard throughout the woods. The buck tried to run away plowing dirt with his face until coming to rest at a fence.

Fast forward to the butchering moment.

That arrow punched a perfect hole through the shoulder blade, traveled through what little bit of chest in that area and exited, while severing the opposing front leg bone clean in half.
At the time, I didn't have many deer under my belt, so I didn't think too much about it. Now a days I think back and wished I would have kept those bones to prove to the guys that call bull, that it indeed happened.
So it is definitely possible, but I believe the lighter carbon arrows have a much less chance delivering that needed "punch".
 
3 bucks ago, I shot one through the shoulder with a rage and killed him dead, and I've been liver shooting them ever since :D
 
I stopped getting pass-throughs w/ carbon arrows. Went back to aluminum & they've sliced right through every time.
 
X2 GUNDOG. With today's mechanical bh you can take the shoulder out of the equation and still confidently kill a deer.
I'm more of a reader than follower, I've read most of all of your post Skip. (Agree on 99%) Why would you post a question like this at this time when you feel so strongly about qdma and the issues we are having with the population and herd management? This is not a post against you, I just gotta ask. I'm a land owner with 3 young boys, (6,10,13). We as deer hunters that care about our herd need to be on the same page 100% of the time (today, tomorrow, my youngest sons future).
 
4DABUCKS said:
X2 GUNDOG. With today's mechanical bh you can take the shoulder out of the equation and still confidently kill a deer.
I'm more of a reader than follower, I've read most of all of your post Skip. (Agree on 99%) Why would you post a question like this at this time when you feel so strongly about qdma and the issues we are having with the population and herd management? This is not a post against you, I just gotta ask. I'm a land owner with 3 young boys, (6,10,13). We as deer hunters that care about our herd need to be on the same page 100% of the time (today, tomorrow, my youngest sons future).
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I pose this because, thinking out loud.... 7-8 guys I know did not get the penetration this year they "should be getting". Varying set-ups. To answer clearly, I am NOT aiming for the shoulder. Me wanting more/better penetration is for 2 reasons...
1) If I accidentally hit the shoulder. I do aim for lungs and usually would hit a deer BACK vs FORWARD, so, probability wise, shoulders aren't a huge issue BUT I want NO ISSUE.
2) Even shooting "back" away from the shoulder (I wait for quartering away, like the big bodied 10 I killed this year, waited for quartering away, put it where I wanted and dead in 20 yards) - shooting back, I've seen it multiple times this year with folks not getting penetration they "should". Like 8-10" and some were not recovered when they should have been. Like I mentioned, I shot another deer at 15 yards, 8" or so behind shoulder. Got 8-10" of penetration. That should have been a pass through, completely blown through. The arrow pulled out perfect and I measured the penetration. This is the heavier of the Gold Tip arrows shooting 70 lbs out of a Mathews Z7. Not a problem with equipment BUT I simply think it's often not enough (even though most folks will call me crazy - I've seen to the contrary way too many times for too many years). I want to take NOTHING TO CHANCE. I see poor penetration from a dozen different set-ups (broadheads, arrows, bows, poundage, distance, etc) way too often. I'll admit, I rarely, I mean RARELY wound a deer. BUT, I want to lose none because I didn't do all I can to get maximum penetration.

You can't kill a deer "too dead". I can handle 80 lbs, no problem. Or 75, whatever. I want a deadly combo that will shoot nice out to 30 yards (my maximum I choose) and I don't have to worry about penetration.

Reading a lot more on VAP arrows, HT-1 by Muddy & FMJ by Easton, all good options BTW. Couple with a 125 grain broadhead is likely gonna be my method. I'll like shoot something around 9-10 grains per inch of just arrow (I think total weight is supposed to be around 6 grains per inch, 5 minimum total). 75-80 lbs, 28-29" draw (I forget) and one of above bows. That's where I'm at right now but lots of time to think through this and research the piss out of it. I still think that heavy arrow with a whole lotta power behind it should shoot it pretty fast to aid in flat trajectory & less deer reaction. Like I said, 30 is about my limit. Maybe 32-33 yards really. That's about it.
 
Here's a thread from a couple years ago when I shot a doe. 40 yards, 29" draw, 66 LB quest smoke. Muddy bloodsport hunter arrow and the 100 gr. magnus buzzcut. Obviously not a buck, but it was a mature doe. Hit the lower 1/4 of the scapula dead center, not the blade area. Broke the bone in four pieces and the arrow stuck in her opposite side. Needless to say, I was impressed. I'd definitely give most of that credit to the broad head.

http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44601
 
Hey friend, I will still say I agree with 99% of your post, all we hear about is the new technology about (bows/bh). Imo some of these new fancy bh designs could be costing us. I've been fortunate enough to kill 2 elk and 2 antelope out of state and all were killed with fixed blade muzzies, sometimes the gimmicks and testimonials Givin from the big name guys (drurys, kiskys, etc) actually sell products. Think about some of your hunts past and answer this ? for yourself (others as well, good ? as far as penetration goes). Stick with what works and don't always think your getting ahead by spending extra $ on the newest products.
 
Skip I hate to say it but theres no bow out there thats going to get it done all the time... I shoot an 80lbs Mathews Monster and Ive got a buddy who has a 90lbs Bowtech Tribute, Ive seen a lot of deer shot with those two bows and Ive seen it go both ways. Ive put an arrow through a shoulder blade at just under 60yds with my Monster at 29" shooting 420g arrows and Ive seen my buddy shooting the 90lbsTribute with FMJ dangerous game arrows, 125g points and 3gpi weight tubes not get enough penetration at under 20yds to get into a lung... I think the knuckle joints between the leg bone and shoulder blade or the leg bone itself is what normally stops an arrow dead. Ive seen a lot of deer boned out deer with broadheads in the knuckle joint and a couple in the leg bone but Ive never personally seen an actual shoulder blade with a broadhead stuck in it. Not to say it doesnt happen I just havent found one that survived because of the shoulder blade stoping an arrow. Although I bet if you hit it right in the ridge running down it you might be in trouble. My buddy just got 106lb limbs for his Bowtech Tribute but he hasnt shot anything with it yet so only time will tell... but like I said I doubt theres a bow out there that any of us are capable of shooting that would always get the job done.
 
I switched back to a Rage this year, and quickly was kicking myself. I have always shot G5 Montecs and never have had an ounce of problems. My buck I shot this year was behind the shoulder blade, and didnt even get a pass through... Granted, he only ran about 75 yds, but when you are color blind, you want the biggest blood trail possible. I have hit deer in the opposite shoulders with the g5s, and still had good broadheads after... I have noticed though, the carbon arrows dont have the power to punch through... or at least with my luck
 
I guess of all the stuff I've used over the years; if someone where to offer me a million dollars if I can make a pass through with one shot only; I would put a 125 gr thunderhead on a heavy aluminum arrow. Feeling like the broadhead being the most critical component.
 
I've had 3 of the pse xforce models (gx, omen pro, dna) all at 80lbs with a 29in draw. I shoot 425 gr victory vaps and there spittin them around 350-365 depending on the bow. I never had a issue with bone lol. Blows through everything I've shot. I blew through the shoulders of a mature doe at 75 yards last year and the arrow was stuck in the dirt behind it. Just shootin the vaps gave me bout 6 inches more penetration in my block fusion target.
 
I can't understand why people use expandables when they say they never had a problem with fixed i.e. montecs,thunderheads,steelforce. etc. Yet they seems to loose deer or don't get a pass through. I shoot Full metal jackets with cut on impact. like steel force. and am confident it will bust the shoulder and have. Not afraid to give up 20 ft per second or so. 30 yards in your fine and the heavy arrow seems to shoot better in higher winds also. We could go on and on but just my preference. Rather have a good hit at 300 fps that a fast miss.:)
 
I agree with rutnstrut in that nearly all hunting bow/arrow combinations bows should get fatal penetration with a hit in the thinner "blade" portion of the scapula. The bottom inch or two of it is thicker and tougher to penetrate and the arm bone or humerus is one tough SOB to bust through without gunpowder. Suspect most nearly all hits with minimal (non-fatal) penetration are in the arm bone rather than shoulder blade.
 
I made a terrible shot last year as the buck I shot didn't stop and I hit him way back. He ran off carrying his back leg and stopped about 75 yards away. I came back the next morning and he was dead another 75 yards from that. The arrow had cut his femur in half. I couldn't believe it when I was deboning him and saw how clean it was cut. PSE evo, 65 lbs, CX maxima kv with wasp jakhammer head. Arrow weight 440 grains. I shot a big doe (140lbs dressed) a couple years ago square through both blades and she was dead in 30 yards, also with a jakhammer and same arrow, but with my old xforce. I really don't think you need to pull ridiculous weights, just shoot something efficient that's tuned so your arrow flies as true as possible. I'm a big believer in a heavy slow arrow compared to light and fast.
 
Hillwalker said:
I can't understand why people use expandables when they say they never had a problem with fixed i.e. montecs,thunderheads,steelforce. etc. Yet they seems to loose deer or don't get a pass through. I shoot Full metal jackets with cut on impact. like steel force. and am confident it will bust the shoulder and have. Not afraid to give up 20 ft per second or so. 30 yards in your fine and the heavy arrow seems to shoot better in higher winds also. We could go on and on but just my preference. Rather have a good hit at 300 fps that a fast miss.:)
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I have never crossed over to the "dark side" :D myself, however my youngest son switched to mechanicals this year. I have shot and killed plenty of deer with a fixed, 3 bladed 125gr Muzzy head and continue to do so. But here are a couple of reasons why I think some have switched...and reasons why I have considered it personally...

1. Accuracy - whether true or false, the notion that mechanicals "fly like field points" is certainly out there. Who wouldn't want better accuracy?

2. Big cutting diameter = big blood trails and dead deer sooner - to me, this is both true and false as it relates to mechanicals. I have seen some HUGE entrance wounds that would theoretically lead to massive blood trails, and in some cases they do. However, it seems to me that a mechanical is quite a bit less likely to have an exit wound though...and that is where the real blood trails come from IMO. Give me two holes in a deer, with one being lower in the body cavity than the other and I am good. I would prefer that to one large hole, higher in the body cavity.

3. Availability - one of the reasons I have considered switching is that I have had trouble finding replacement blades sometimes for my old "fuddy duddy's" several times in the past few years. This ties in with #4 below.

4. Hype/marketing - let's face it, the "Rage Machine" is alive and well and people are influenced by advertising and testimonials, etc. When critical mass is reached and market share is tilted towards a brand/class of head, then it stands to reason that other, less common, styles will be less available.
 
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