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BOW GUYS HELP- 80 lbs bows & busting thru shoulders???...

Answering Skips Questions

Bows are designed to be shot at peak weight for best efficeincy and quietest operation. I don't like to back them off more that half way unless it is temporary. If you plan on shooting "73# forever" as you stated - you would be way better off with a 70# bow.

Most guys I know that shoot tons of 3D competitively do it at 60# - 70# for that many shots just tires you out quicker and makes the last 10 targets a little harder to shoot well.

Elite has a smooth draw but at the cost of speed and KE. The Synergy you want set at 80# (set to same draw length and shooting same arrow) would give you the same Kinetic energy and speed as say a 62# RPM360 or a Hoyt Turbo set at 66#, etc. If pure KE is your goal a higher rated IBO bow will get you there a lot easier. I'm not trying to pick on Elite specifically, the new Mathews NoCam would be very similar as it is also a lower rated IBO than many on the market. BOth these companies also make faster bows which would be my choice in those lineups if you want to Max out your KE.

Granted, these slower IBO bows put out more than enough KE even at 40# draw to kill Iowa Whitetail. I have kids getting pass-thru shots on whitetail at 40#. Getting KE figures over 80# makes it legal for Cape Buffalo in most places in Africa and we are getting close to the 100# that they ask for Elephant. If your 60 or 70# bow is not getting consistent pass-throughs, you probably need to change broadheads, arrows or do more tuning.
 
gunrunr said:
Answering Skips Questions

Bows are designed to be shot at peak weight for best efficeincy and quietest operation. I don't like to back them off more that half way unless it is temporary. If you plan on shooting "73# forever" as you stated - you would be way better off with a 70# bow.

Most guys I know that shoot tons of 3D competitively do it at 60# - 70# for that many shots just tires you out quicker and makes the last 10 targets a little harder to shoot well.

Elite has a smooth draw but at the cost of speed and KE. The Synergy you want set at 80# (set to same draw length and shooting same arrow) would give you the same Kinetic energy and speed as say a 62# RPM360 or a Hoyt Turbo set at 66#, etc. If pure KE is your goal a higher rated IBO bow will get you there a lot easier. I'm not trying to pick on Elite specifically, the new Mathews NoCam would be very similar as it is also a lower rated IBO than many on the market. BOth these companies also make faster bows which would be my choice in those lineups if you want to Max out your KE.

Granted, these slower IBO bows put out more than enough KE even at 40# draw to kill Iowa Whitetail. I have kids getting pass-thru shots on whitetail at 40#. Getting KE figures over 80# makes it legal for Cape Buffalo in most places in Africa and we are getting close to the 100# that they ask for Elephant. If your 60 or 70# bow is not getting consistent pass-throughs, you probably need to change broadheads, arrows or do more tuning.
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Spot on and I would give a serious look to the new Nitrum Turbo. I usually have to yolk tune my bows to get fixed blades and fielp points hitting the same point of impact, but the new flex guard really seems to have reduced that need. I have a short draw, 27", and have owned 4-5 #80 pound bows. Everything he is saying is spot on and fatigue will be your worst enemy, plus rushing shots to relieve the tension felt with a higher pound bow. I am all for heavier poundage, but walking at 8000 feet and sneaking up on an elk or mulie keeps the juices flowing much easier than sitting in a cold stand all day and drawing once at 1030 on a 20 degree morning.

Your a smart guy and a great hunter and will make the best choice based on all the factors, but Im back to shooting #70 and enjoying long practice sessions again:) Seriously Skip, look at the 2015 Hoyt Nitrum Turbo.
 
http://archerycalculator.com/archery-kinetic-energy-and-momentum-calculator/

This helps too
Thanks a million guys. I'm more a "deer guy" and not a "gear guy" so your information really helps!!! Thanks a ton!!!

ONE MORE QUESTION....
As I increase arrow weight in calculator- KE & Momentum goes up. Say from 400 grains to 500 grains. SO... Is the only downside to going heavier going to be speed & trajectory? Or, will it in some way not match up with bow, "make arrow too heavy" and make bow out of tune?
 
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Yes. You can hit a point of diminishing returns as far as a heavier slower arrow goes but you'd have to go aways. With a range finder super speed is over rated in my opinion.
As far as matching a arrow to the bow it's all about arrow spine and tune. There are all kinds of things you can do to an arrow to tweak it's spine.
 
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New broadhead set up I've been involved in the research & patenting.... U shoot low & actually cuts all 4 legs off the deer. Doesn't need to be fatal of course & it's full proof for no tracking. The only "no tracking" broadhead on the market.
 
Little update here on a management buck I shot earlier this year.....
Here's just ONE example of a lot of different reasons I want more penetration in general. Try and explain this one to me!??!?!?!..... 70 lbs, Mathews Z7, Gold Tip arrows, 100 grain head with chisel tip. This buck WAS 275 lbs on the hoof in Nov, he's thinned WAY DOWN!!!.... I know the pic is blurry but he's 10-11 year old buck, 7 years worth of sheds from him (his horns are actually still really impressive and much more massive than poor quality pic shows). He lost a lot of weight since shot (think it was actually just from rutting). when shot, 275-ish live weight horse. This was broadside, slightly quartering away, 10 yard shot, 25'-27' in the air. So, to me, the angle and entrance are about perfect. If you saw the angle I was at, it was perfect. Maybe a TOUCH high but with angle, not by much. Well behind shoulder. When it hit, I expected him to drop within sight. Then, look at my arrow, about 8-ish inches. Walked away, didn't act funny now that I think about it. Well, he's all over my cams, everywhere on the farm, healthy as can be (other than thinned down). Thought I was gonna find him later dead but nope, he's roaming all over. How on earth is this possible?!?!? 22 years with a bow, I know what a "blow through shot" should be and this was one, that deer should be dead. Frigin ticks me off. Yes, he's a "management buck" but age is the trophy and I still think good chance to kill him BUT I see no good reason he isn't TOAST. Seen stuff like this WAY TOO MANY TIMES (most others were vast amounts of friends, guys I know, etc) for whatever reason. I'm doing all in my power to make sure I don't learn this lesson twice, I'm going to be adding a lot of kinetic energy & momentum this next fall, a lot more. This gets my blood boiling and I also hate hearing "40 lbs is plenty to kill a whitetail!!". BS - can't kill em too dead and just one more of a million reasons I want as much power as I can get that I can comfortably shoot.
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Skip, it's going to happen you cant cover it all no way no how. You sure can be the best prepared you can but as much shooting as you do it's bound to happen once in awhile. I have done and seen similar and cant figure it out sometimes. Yea it sucks when it happens and you beat yourself up over it but hey if it was easy how much fun would that be. I hit one once but just as the arrow entered the buck took off after a doe and his shoulder came back at the same time deflecting the arrow and I only got one lung, it was a bloody mess where he stood coughing blood for 45 minutes before someone spooked him from the fence row. I tracked him for about 3 days he lived on I seen him breed a doe 2 days after I shot him. Unreal survival machines. Could he of ducked a little when you shot taking up some of the energy etc??? Heck I don't know but when your target is not static you wont be able to control everything is what I'm getting at.
 
As stated, you cant cover all natural events. I have had a 165+ deer kick as I shot, snapped my arrow..To me looked like a perfect double lung hit.. Had two weeks of photos of him after that until slug season.. I sure would have thought my bow was fast enough/good enough shot... Nothing I can do but keep hunting and chalk one up to "Sh.. Happens"
 
What failed? Penetration? or placement? Where Sligh's deer's scar is, is right where the height of the dorsal spines above the vertebra is the tallest. It's very easy to imagine how a shot in that area did not get into the chest unless it was almost straight down. A year ago I hit a fair buck right there with my crossbow at 10 yards from 16' up. No shortage of penetration either as the bolt was half buried in the dirt and covered with blood. I thought I had made a great hit and couldn't fathom how the deer ran 200 yards out of sight. It wasn't until I lost the blood trail after 1/4 mile that I started to wonder. Neighbor got a trail cam picture of him 2 weeks later with an a huge divot missing right where the scar is on Sligh's deer. It was above his spine, not in the chest at all. I just don't buy the single lung theory. I've studied enough pathology and physiology that it just doesn't compute. A penetration into or through even a single lung with a sharp fixed blade or FUNCTIONING expandable will result in a dead deer almost 100% of the time. There may be exceptions but they will be damned few and far between kinda like a miracle. I would have to see one autopsied to believe it. I have been hunting deer for 50 years (with arrows for over 30). In addition, I have practice equine veterinary medicine and surgery since 1971 during which time I have dealt with a fair number of chest wounds of various types. Some survived and some did not. I cannot comprehend how a broadhead could penetrate through or even into a lung, even a single lung, and not create a fatal wound very nearly 100% of the time. They may not die as fast as we expect or leave as good a blood trail as we want but almost all of them will die. I think the whole "single lung hit" is about as credible as the mythical "space below the spine but above the lungs"... BS! Anatomically it makes more sense to me that what we perceive as a great hit didn't really hit where we think it did or that the organs aren't really where we thought they were. Until proven otherwise I will have to believe that Sligh's deer and most similar hits survive a failure of placement rather than penetration. I'm not trying to start a battle. Hopefully this is an educational forum and that's what I'm trying to do. If I need educating, then someone shoot this deer or one like it and show me some photos of the walled off broadhead or at leas the scarring of a lung that was the result of a non-fatal single lung hit and set me straight. I may be an old dog but still willing to learn. ;)
 
HorseDoctor said:
What failed? Penetration? or placement? Where Sligh's deer's scar is, is right where the height of the dorsal spines above the vertebra is the tallest. It's very easy to imagine how a shot in that area did not get into the chest unless it was almost straight down. A year ago I hit a fair buck right there with my crossbow at 10 yards from 16' up. No shortage of penetration either as the bolt was half buried in the dirt and covered with blood. I thought I had made a great hit and couldn't fathom how the deer ran 200 yards out of sight. It wasn't until I lost the blood trail after 1/4 mile that I started to wonder. Neighbor got a trail cam picture of him 2 weeks later with an a huge divot missing right where the scar is on Sligh's deer. It was above his spine, not in the chest at all. I just don't buy the single lung theory. I've studied enough pathology and physiology that it just doesn't compute. A penetration into or through even a single lung with a sharp fixed blade or FUNCTIONING expandable will result in a dead deer almost 100% of the time. There may be exceptions but they will be damned few and far between kinda like a miracle. I would have to see one autopsied to believe it. I have been hunting deer for 50 years (with arrows for over 30). In addition, I have practice equine veterinary medicine and surgery since 1971 during which time I have dealt with a fair number of chest wounds of various types. Some survived and some did not. I cannot comprehend how a broadhead could penetrate through or even into a lung, even a single lung, and not create a fatal wound very nearly 100% of the time. They may not die as fast as we expect or leave as good a blood trail as we want but almost all of them will die. I think the whole "single lung hit" is about as credible as the mythical "space below the spine but above the lungs"... BS! Anatomically it makes more sense to me that what we perceive as a great hit didn't really hit where we think it did or that the organs aren't really where we thought they were. Until proven otherwise I will have to believe that Sligh's deer and most similar hits survive a failure of placement rather than penetration. I'm not trying to start a battle. Hopefully this is an educational forum and that's what I'm trying to do. If I need educating, then someone shoot this deer or one like it and show me some photos of the walled off broadhead or at leas the scarring of a lung that was the result of a non-fatal single lung hit and set me straight. I may be an old dog but still willing to learn. ;)
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Skip sorry for hijacking this thread but Eric (HorseDoctor) has a bunch of knowledge to add and I have one experience I would like to understand better maybe he can add insight.

Eric, I believe you where you stand on the one lung hit and want to understand what happened to me, it bothers me every time I think about it. What happened to me must of been one of those one in a million shots unless you can theorize what may have happened I am stuck thinking it was a one lung hit. it was Tuesday, November 2, 2004 I shot a deer that was following a doe. Just as I shot the buck took off running after the doe and I believe the arrow was deflected by the shoulder as it came back as he started running. It was a 40ish yard shot and the elevation change with how the land laid there was probably only 10 feet of vertical difference from where I sat and where the deer was on the ground. The broadhead was a 3 blade 1 1/2" NAP Spitfire (mechanical) I shot him on his right hand side and the arrow came out the deer when it ran. If I remember right there was only 4" of penetration. The buck ran 20 yards from me into a wooded fence row and stood and coughed blood for 45 minutes (approx.). Another guy spotted it from the road and tried to stalk it not knowing he was wounded I never seen the guy until he spooked the deer off to the neighboring golf course. We came back the next day and found another area of coughed up blood all over a 15 foot area but no deer. I ventured out onto the golf course and a greens keeper spotted me and pulled up. He said he kicked a big buck out of a little island of trees around 75 yards from us just after first light and he seen it run through a sand trap and up into the woods on the other side. He took me to where he seen it and sure enough there was blood in the sand trap. I waited until that afternoon and came back and seen blood as I entered the woods I bumped the deer and looked at his bed there was no coughing just blood drops in and around the bed. I backed out and came back the next day. No kidding I found fresh blood as soon as I entered the 10 acre piece of timber. I followed a ridge with blood drops slowly and spotted movement in the bottom below the ridge and when I glassed the movement it was was the buck I had shot mounting a doe. I couldn't believe it and could not see any visible wound. I looked again on day 3 and only found dry blood. The deer was spotted a couple times later that year and I think was shot the following year. Any other theory what may have happened?
 
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Dear Mr. Horsedoctor. Your post hit the proverbial nail square on the head with a large hammer. Sometimes what we see and what happened are 2 different things. A slow bow now is in the 260 fps range, even at that speed and the reaction of a deer alot can and will happen.
I love lighted knocks and use them but on a non passthrough shot they can be deceiving on where the front of the arrow hit vs what the draw of the lighted knock may show. Having a small camera and filming the shot is the only sure fire way to know where your arrow truly entered, if only it was that easy to shoot and film at the same time to make sure.
I shoot heavy arrows and a high poundage bow and i do my best to aim for the exit and shoot for the middle of the lungs on a broadside shot or wait for a quartered away shot and put it 2/3rds back in the ribs.
 
Thanks guys, you do all make a lot of sense and 20 years into this, I am still learning. I know "where to aim" but one in 20 deer I've shot (I'm guessing) in last 10 years ends something like this (so not common, I'm probably 90-95% on kills I'd guess). Again, I'm a deer guy and not a gear guy though and that's why the thread started, just in general wanting more penetration (regardless of deer example I posted). With the deer example, I mean, I've done this A FRIGIN LOT!!!.... And I'm boggled the deer didn't have a pass through, run 20 yards and tip. He's walking all over my farm a 1.5 months later just fine. Funny part is, the big 10 point I did kill earlier this year (posted), I probably hit him within 2" of where I hit this deer and he was toast in 20 yards. I couldn't believe it when I saw the tiny bit of penetration, I was shocked.
In general, aside from this deer example, I have too many guys I know that scratch their heads on "how did I only get 6" of penetration with 70 lbs and chisel tips" or whatever I hear over and over and over. (yes, still 10 times more deer are killed or missed that I talk to guys about BUT it's disturbing how many are not found cause of "no penetration".) Which, may or may not be my issue here. I'm boggled by the shot and no dead deer and no penetration but the above information makes more sense of it. I still know I'll be pursuing as much KE and momentum out of my bow I can comfortably shoot and make a few more changes next year on maybe shooting a little bit lower & a touch further back. Beyond that, still a proponent of as heavy duty a weapon as I can comfortably handle. Thanks for all your feedback!!!! 12 more days to catch back up with this rascal, he's 10 or 11 based on all the history so would like to see him go down, go down clean and be a trophy of years getting that dude. Thanks guys.
 
Central Iowa said:
Skip sorry for hijacking this thread but Eric (HorseDoctor) has a bunch of knowledge to add and I have one experience I would like to understand better maybe he can add insight.

Eric, I believe you where you stand on the one lung hit and want to understand what happened to me, it bothers me every time I think about it. What happened to me must of been one of those one in a million shots unless you can theorize what may have happened I am stuck thinking it was a one lung hit. it was Tuesday, November 2, 2004 I shot a deer that was following a doe. Just as I shot the buck took off running after the doe and I believe the arrow was deflected by the shoulder as it came back as he started running. It was a 40ish yard shot and the elevation change with how the land laid there was probably only 10 feet of vertical difference from where I sat and where the deer was on the ground. The broadhead was a 3 blade 1 1/2" NAP Spitfire (mechanical) I shot him on his right hand side and the arrow came out the deer when it ran. If I remember right there was only 4" of penetration. The buck ran 20 yards from me into a wooded fence row and stood and coughed blood for 45 minutes (approx.). Another guy spotted it from the road and tried to stalk it not knowing he was wounded I never seen the guy until he spooked the deer off to the neighboring golf course. We came back the next day and found another area of coughed up blood all over a 15 foot area but no deer. I ventured out onto the golf course and a greens keeper spotted me and pulled up. He said he kicked a big buck out of a little island of trees around 75 yards from us just after first light and he seen it run through a sand trap and up into the woods on the other side. He took me to where he seen it and sure enough there was blood in the sand trap. I waited until that afternoon and came back and seen blood as I entered the woods I bumped the deer and looked at his bed there was no coughing just blood drops in and around the bed. I backed out and came back the next day. No kidding I found fresh blood as soon as I entered the 10 acre piece of timber. I followed a ridge with blood drops slowly and spotted movement in the bottom below the ridge and when I glassed the movement it was was the buck I had shot mounting a doe. I couldn't believe it and could not see any visible wound. I looked again on day 3 and only found dry blood. The deer was spotted a couple times later that year and I think was shot the following year. Any other theory what may have happened?
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Very interesting scenario. In thinking through this and trying to come up with a plausible explanation for what occurred with this buck, I can come up with two possibilities (SWAGs). Obviously, the arrow hit something pretty solid to limit penetration to 4" cause I'm pretty sure Travis shoots a "big boy" bow with ample kinetic energy to do the job even at 40 yards. The arrow also had to penetrate the respiratory system somewhere in order for the buck to cough up blood. Most likely possibilities include:

1) Arrow hit in area illustrated by black circle, striking the lower shoulder blade or upper arm bone and slid off the back edge with very minimal penetration into the chest. In this case the point of the broadhead may well have punctured the lung and fell back out. I'm convinced that with only 4'' penetration and the size of a NAP Spitfire that the lung was not penetrated by the entire broadhead. On a decent size buck (and Travis doesn't shoot little bucks ;)) 4" is just barely through all the muscle in the shoulder region. This could possibly cause enough bleeding in the lung that the buck coughed up blood but not produce fatal hemorrhage or collapse the lung. If only the point penetrated the lung and the Spitfire appears to have a fairly long point in front of the blades, that would be more like being hit with a field point. Not enough of the broadhead got to the lung to produce the desired fatal hit. In this case a small portion of the broadhead may have hit the lung but it was not penetrated by the entire NAP Spitfire.

2) The arrow may have deflected to the front of the shoulder, staying out of the chest but penetrating into the windpipe (trachea). This hit would also cause bleeding into the trachea causing him to cough blood but not produce fatal bleeding or collapse the lung. In most instances a hit in this area would also hit the jugular vein(s) or carotid arteries also in the same area which will produce massive bleeding and rapid death.

In either instance, the deer was very lucky, and Travis was not. Close... real close, but no cigar. :( Too bad you couldn't catch up with him later and see what really happened.
 
Thank you, and I am guessing scenario #1 was likely the case thanks again for taking the time to lay it out and that make sense. I replay it through my head every time I drive by that farm.
 
Scenario #2 sounds very plausible. Neither lung may have been damaged, chest wall intact, pleura intact, live deer with a tracheotomy. If this is analogous to humans with a temporary tracheotomy the tracheal wound closes off in a matter of hours.

Posting same time as Travis. Of course he was there and saw the deer but sitting here thinking about it I wonder if this doesn't happen a lot. I wonder if some of the "hit the brisket" shots are actually this.
 
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