Cereal Grains and cover crops

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: huntyak
Is it possible if we have a very warm Sept and the rye gets too tall to cut it to prevent it from maturing somewhat like clover? Talked to Welters today while ordering and they suggested this weekend as the temps have been cool but said that if it gets "hot" they may get bigger than us "hunters" want and to plant clover as a backup. The only problem is I am switching that plot to corn next year and while it would be win win if I was keeping it in clover, may be a waste to plant this fall as I might not get much growth?

This weekend is the earliest I would plant rye..I'm going to try to wait until late next week. Rye grows fast so it's hard to say but a few days one way or the other shouldn't be to bad.

You could try clipping it if need be but hopefully the deer will do it for you! Mine never got over a few inches high because of intensive grazing...surprising since I keep hearing that deer don't like rye that well....

 

[Limb Chicken]

Planted Rye/Clover and Brassicas last weekend but won't get rain until Thursday so, we shall see how it works. Basically tried to split the difference between the two planting dates to save a trip...

 

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: Limb Chicken
Planted Rye/Clover and Brassicas last weekend but won't get rain until Thursday so, we shall see how it works. Basically tried to split the difference between the two planting dates to save a trip...

Limb is right...nuthin' going to come up until we get rain (at least if it's as dry as it is here in SE Iowa...) A little planning can work in your favor and many of us don't always have a choice...we just have to get it done when we can and hope for the best.

One thing I would like to add is that our avg. frost date is a full week later here in the south so that's something to consider as well. Limbs planting date can be earlier then mine.

Avg Iowa Frost dates

Frost isn't going to hurt the rye but colder fall temps will decelerate growth as days grow shorter and nights colder.

We can't predict the weather so we are always at the mercy of Mother Nature

This thread not only covers cereal grains but also the use of "cover crops" and "green manure" crops to build our soil and lesson the need for commercial fertilizers.

I have already posted reams of information that shows how and why rye is the preferred crop to build soil versus wheat for instance.

Legumes such as clovers provide copious amounts of nitrogen which to purchase is the most expensive form of fertilizer.

Remember when I tilled under the Berseem clover to plant my brassicas? Some wondered aloud..."heyy...that looks like a MESS...is that ok??"

Good question of course so here are just a few pics of the soil surface then and now to show how it breaks down quickly and growing plants love that environment!

Now the brassicas are taking advantage of the moisture the organic matter is holding.

The slowly decomposing clover will begin to release nitrogen perhaps all the way into next year and the brassicas will be only to happy to take advantage of that

While I mention often that brassicas are better off planted alone, fall plantings (depending on the planting date) can include plow down clover. The brassicas will grow quickly while the clover is still small but next spring the clover can flourish and be a summer crop to plow down in late summer again.

Another option is to frost seed clover into the bare brassica plots in late winter...whichever you choose...keep your soil working for you...it's like money in the bank!!

 

[dbltree]

We talk about correct planting dates for fall grains which is something that varies of course, depending on where we live and our zone.

Oats stay tender a little longer then rye and wheat so we can get away with a little earlier planting. I've also had people ask if tilling down spring oats (or any grains) will bury seed to deep or damage them.

Here's the answer to that question...

I tilled the daylights out of these spring oats that had matured in order to sow brassicas August 1st

they re-sprouted and despite dry weather are already growing well.

Discing or tilling grains that have matured will just start the process all over again! Plowing is the only method that would bury seed to deep. If you plant rye and clover this fall to till under next summer, discing or tilling it under will re-seed the rye along with whatever you choose to plant next. Free seed so to speak.

If you choose not to till it under because it is in clover for instance, the rye will likely not re-seed and the clover will be to dense and thick to allow the rye seed to compete even if it does germinate.

By posting seeding dates from around the state this summer we'll have a better idea next year what is a good time frame to sow our grains.

These pics are oats and clover that huntyak planted several weeks ago.

You can see, like mine it's well on it's way...

and deer are feeding on it as well

but will it be to mature and rank by mid October?

That remains to be seen and I planted some this week and my last batch along with rye will go in next week.

We'll just keep track this fall and hopefully everyone will report back. If our fall is early and cool then things won't mature as quickly but if it stays warm...stuff is going to grow!

Post your fall grain progress pics here and let us know how they are doing

 

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: Skully
Great info Paul! ] I noticed that Welters offers several types of winter wheat. Soft and hard red varieties. Which is best in your opinion? Sorry if this has been asked before. There wasn't much difference in price so I just want to make sure I get the best seed for my food plot application.

I always use winter rye rather then wheat because it has so many more soil building attributes then wheat, so I'm not sure I can answer that question.

I really doubt that it makes a difference to the deer but it's a good question!

Here are some links on grazing wheat:

GRAZING WHEAT PASTURE

In this wheat grazing trial, hard WW was used but most likely because of the market for the grain rather then grazing differences.

Wheat Variety Grazing Trial

I'm guessing hard wheat is better suited to our area but maybe someone (even Welters) could expand on that for us...

 

[dbltree]

We got anywhere between 1/2" to 3/4" of rain thru out this area of SE Iowa so I decided to take advantage of the moisture and disc down some spring oats and peas and the soybeans that the deer had murdered...

Now I know that some of you that struggle to scratch up a little dirt with an ATV probably hate me when I post pics like this but a big ole disc and tractor come in handy for workin' down a mess a standing crops

I am fortunate to either own or have access to some decent equipment and that's just another reason I thank God every day for blessings that I'm not sure I deserve....

did I mention the air conditioned cab??

That old disc makes short work of chopping/stirring/plowing down the mix of soybeans, peas, oats and assorted weeds

all of which makes for great green manure soil building material

For now the field is just prepped and I'll use my tiller to finish "stirring" it up next week and plant it to rye, oats and plow-down clover.

Just a few reminders for those that will be buying seed etc. to plant over Labor Day weekend.

Rye, oats and wheat planted for grazing can be planted heavier then for grain. 100-120#'s of oats, 80-120#'s of rye, wheat or triticale won't be a bit to much.

It will never have time to be too competitive and we don't have to worry about lodging and other prohibitive factors next spring that cause problems when grown for grain.

Cereal grains are "grasses"...just like the grass in your lawn or corn and sorghum, they LOVE nitrogen! Unlike corn however they will grow and do fairly well without any additional fertilizer.

If however you want the greenest "baddest" cereal grains around, adding 50-80 or more pounds of actual nitrogen at seeding will make your grains lush and green. I've never tasted them...but I suspect that well fed tender young grains will be sweeter and tastier then those on a "diet"...

The last thing I need is to draw even one extra deer or encourage them in the slightest way, so personally I use organic methods. Plowing down legumes such as my soys and peas will add at least a minimal amount of N and future plow-downs of red or white clover will provide way more nitrogen then my grains can use.

On poor soils I suggest a soil sample that will allow you to build up levels of P&K to a point where you can just maintain fertility levels by plowing down future crops of clover and rye for instance.

I will stress once again that winter rye is an excellent nitrogen scavenger, and it's roots are capable of pulling nutrients from deep in the soil and when tilled back in, make those nutrients available to the next crop.

Rye and clover then become and unbeatable combination providing an all year long high quality food source for your deer as well as a self sustaining food plot that requires little if any future inputs.

Wheat does not share these attributes nor is it as compatible to leave standing with clover thru next summer.

I'll be planting separate plot of oats next week as well along with exclusion cages to compare oats and BFO oats along with rye and oats...stay tuned...

 

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: nontypcl1
I plan on planting 3 acres of rye grain with some red clover and AWP's next week but I'm not sure if the peas will get enough grow time before frost. Should I maybe plant the peas tomorrow and broadcast the rye and clover over top around the sept 1 or just plant it all on the 1st?

I think at this point I would just go ahead and plant it all, looking at rain possibles late in the week so I would take advantage of the upcoming moisture.

It's a fine line sometimes getting everything to fit in at the right times and especially with work schedules it can be difficult.

Please let us know how yours does this fall!

Hey Paul,
You might need a new tire on that disc before you head out on the road with it.

If I put a tire on it then my farmer friend might want it back...as it is I've kind of "inherited" it...

 

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I planted Rye and clover yesterday but see no rain forecasted for the next 10 days. The rain we had the past few days made the soil great but now I am not sure if ANYTHING will grow without any rain. How drought resistant is rye and although it can be planted 1.5" inches deep, is shallower just as effective? </div></div>

Rye is VERY drought resistant, so no worries about that. If there is soil moisture to get it germinated it will take off.

Most grains should be planted 1-2" deep which will put the seed down where there is moisture and allow the roots to be firmly established in that moisture area.

The fact that rye can also be broadcast on bare ground just shows how versatile it is! I have seen rye planted on the driest sandiest soils and the heavest clay soils and never seen it fail.

If rye fails...it's BAD and there is little you could have done.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wednesday Night: A 20 percent chance of showers and thunderstorms. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 62.

Thursday: A 30 percent chance of showers and thunderstorms. Mostly cloudy, with a high near 83.

Thursday Night: A chance of showers and thunderstorms. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 61.
</div></div>

Chances aren't high but...have faith! We also have the benefit of cool nights and reasonable day time temps, so relax...be happy!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: steveolson
This is an off the wall question but does anyone know the regulations regarding food plots when ground is going into CRP?
The owner of the farm I lease is putting the tillable ground into the CRP program next spring but my lease guarantees me at least 4 acres set aside for food plots. Can I still plant whatever I want or is the government going to tell me which crops are acceptable? Anyone?? STEVE

Yes...the government tells you what you can plant...kinda...

Don't ask...don't tell.... having said that they basically want to make sure that 4 acres is 1) in some kind of cover that will prevent erosion (even corn...just don't leave it unplanted)
2) they want you to leave it alone during the nesting season
3) leave it standing

Almost anything from clover to corn is acceptable but I've never had anyone check or ask about what if anything I have planted.

They do have rules...don't blatantly abuse those rules and you'll be fine...

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains - more about oats

Yesterday and today I completed fall plantings of oats and rye.

Earlier in this thread we talked about oats, winter-hardy oats, forage oats and how all of that compares with winter rye grain.

In this area of the Midwest ALL oats are going to freeze out so we question why we want to pay $75 an acre to plant BFO oats or $34 an acre to plant conventional oats and fall/winter field rye??

BFO states on their bag that clover is no good, brassicas are no good, mixed seeds are no good...well, you get the idea.

BFO I'm quite sure I fine quality oats and if money is not of the essence then you'll I'm sure be satisfied with them at least until they freeze out.

I have posted over a number of years many many pics of my rye plots quite full of deer from October to March so it doesn't set right with me when someone says...NOPE...rye is no good, wheat is no good, blah blah blah

So here's the deal...I have planted side by side plots on two different farms in different counties in entirely different situations.

We're going to find out the pros and cons of oats vs rye, BFO vs Jerry oats, both kinds of oats mixed with rye. Grain planted without fertilizer and with heavy amounts of fertilizer.

Both places are hidden heavily traveled by deer and one set of plots will have cams "watching" them as well as visible from my blinds.

Whatever happens, including freeze dates...I'll let you know. My feeling is this...for the most economical but effective planting, use fall/winter rye grain mixed with common oats and who cares when it freezes....

I disced this field of rr soybeans the other day (this field had no oats left in it) and the rest of my spring peas and oats.

Discing cut thru the heavy vegetation, loosened the soil and buried the previous crops leaving it looking like this...

Then I tilled it once to smooth it out and make a nice planting surface...

Leaving it looking like this...

Underneath is some beautiful organic matter which includes legumes like soybeans and field peas...

In this field I planted oats at roughly 120#'s per acre, two separate plots of BFO oats, two separate plots of Jerry oats (nothing special about Jerry...just common oats)

One plot each is nothing but pure oats of each variety the other two I over seeded with field rye at roughly another 60-80#'s per care.

Fall Rye Grain Seed (NOT ryegrass!!)

I then cultipacked it to cover the seed...

Then I seeded 1/3 of the plot to Alice White Clover, 1/3 to Red Clover and let 1/3 to frost seed this winter to compare growth and results next summer.

I marked the various plots

and left it looking like this... August 26th 2008

None of that plot had any commercial fertilizer applied so I moved closer to home and repeated the process only I planted 4 separate plots in the same way (BFO, alone, Jerry alone, Rye alone and combination of rye and oats)

Here however I applied plenty of fertilizer! Wal-Mart had 15# bags of 29-3-4 for 5 bucks a bag so I snagged an armload

No weed killer (2-4D) so it's safe to apply even with brassicas and clover seed (thankfully we have Ironwood as our "herbicide tester"...

These plots are smaller garden sized plots but it still took me awhile to spread the high nitrogen and triple 13 fertilizer by hand...

I put it on heavy too!

Then spread the oats and rye...

These plots I tilled lightly to cover the oats seed, packed via the tractor tires, seeded with both white and red clovers (for plow down) and repacked.

I overseeded some soybeans with the field rye, I added some left over brassica seed to some areas of both plots (on each farm) just to compare late seeding performance.

I already know what is going to happen but...if anyone believes that deer are going to eat the high priced oats and snub their noses at the common oats and or the rye....please feel free to post your thoughts...

Ohhh...I almost forgot, I have some exclusion cages to put up also and the cams won't lie and most of you know me well enough that I won't either.

By the end of season we'll be able to sort thru the hype and see how it all works out...stay tuned!

 

[Iowabowtech]

Re: Cereal Grains - more about oats

Can't wait to see the results of this one...you sir are a scientist at heart. BTW, I planted my little 1/4 acre (if that) woodland plot with oats/rye/clover on 8/20. I used PlotSpike forage oats so it should be interesting. Didn't take any pics of the bare site but I'll grab the cam shortly to check progress. I hope you can't use too much urea because it looked like a snowstorm hit by the time I was done. I was fortunate to get two nice gentle rains on it but may be a little early on the oats. With the deer populations I have though, it may NEVER grow to any substantial height anyway!

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains - Ragdoll Test

With the deer populations I have though, it may NEVER grow to any substantial height anyway!

That is a big factor...if deer use it heavily then planting a week or two early may not be a problem.

Let us know how yours works out

Huntyak sent some pics of his field rye that quickly popped up despite very dry conditions

This one is of some rye the spilled on the ground and with little moisture still germinated.

Just an example of how broadcasting rye into standing crops or even into a small "no-till" plot where the sod was killed with roundup.

I bought my field rye locally and I noticed the bags were covered with cobwebs and dust when we loaded them. Didn't think much of it until I planted it and looked at seed tag which showed it was tested in July 2006!

Not a problem if it germinates but...not really fair to pay for new seed and then get old seed that has been setting around for several years.

I decided to do a ragdoll germination test before I said anything .

This link explains how to do your own tests to check germination especially if you have older seed you have saved and wonder if it is viable.

Ragdoll test

That link also lists approximate dates to expect seeds to germinate. Most grains are listed at 7 days.

It's best to used brown paper toweling but lacking that I used some "quicker picker upper" ]

I used several layers, wet it, wrung it out and scattered some rye and oats seed in it.

I rolled it up

and stuck in a small glass in a warm window

I add a dab of water every day or so to keep it from drying out.

The oats germinated in 3 days and a few rye seeds had germinated but I'll give a week and see how many germinate...hopefully 80% or so then....I may have go visit my friend at the feed store....

 

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: steveolson
Your quite the testing machine what does your wife think of all your experiments????

STEVE

She's used to it by now...however she did request that I draw a face on the "ragdoll" next time...

So far I'm not real happy with my rye germination...maybe 30% so far...

I hope the seed I planted does better and next time I'll be checking the label to see how old the seed is. Larger places like Welters this is rarely a problem but small feed/seed stores sometimes have seed set around year to year....

 

[dbltree]

It's not quite a week since I started the rag-doll test of my rye seed but it sure not looking to good...

The long sprouts you see are a few oats...all of which sprouted within days because it was fresh seed. The rye seed was almost 3 years old....

You can see a few sprouting in the lower part of the pic...

It was hard not to get a "glare" but you can see that very few seeds have germinated...

A lesson learned...to check to test date of seed we purchase especially from smaller local suppliers....

 

[dbltree]

Any experience planting fall rye into a fairly well established clover plot?

No...and I'm curious why you would want to?

if you try it however let us know how it works out!

Couple of questions regarding cereal grains that have been asked recently...

Is field rye toxic to livestock?

To my knowledge...no...we used to pasture cattle every fall,winter and spring on field rye and never had any issues and I'm not aware of any serious toxicity issues with field rye.

Rye-grassis another story and perennial ryegrass staggers and annual ryegrass toxicity are just a couple problems that might lead one to confuse with field rye grain

Perennial Ryegrass Staggers

There are many grazing toxicity issues with fescue, grass tetany and others that are very common and difficult for cattlemen to avoid so almost anything is possible.

Cattle are a huge part of Iowa's ag industry and as hunters and landowners we often have a close relationship with one or more farmers who have livestock and their concerns are sometimes ours as well. It pays to know what your talking about and that what you plant is not harmful should livestock end up grazing it later in the season.

Quote:
Cultivated rye (Secale cereale)… co-evolved with wheat and barley (this is what we want to plant each fall)

The ryegrasses listed below I would suggest NOT planting, they have nothing to do with cereal rye grain (winter rye, fall rye grain)

Annual Ryegrass (Lolium rigidum)

Annual Ryegrass (Lolium multiflorum Lam. or Lolium perenne L. ssp. multiflorum Lam.)

Perennial ryegrass (Lolium perenne L.).



Planting depths are another question often asked about cereal grains but quite honestly they have a wide window of planting depths that make it hard to do it wrong...

Using a drill we would plant at roughly 1 - 1 1/2" deep and the drill would use a disc or coulter to cover the seed evenly.

Broadcasting seed however means we have to cover it some other way.

Making soil contact is usually enough especially with plenty of moisture but covering the seed an inch or so means the seeds root will be in the moisture zone should it be dry (as it was the past few weeks)

In very dry weather seeds may have the energy to sprout but not enough left to push tiny roots to the moisture area whereas deeper planted seed can easily push thru several inches of soil with roots firmly established where the water is.

In short...cereal grains can be planting anywhere from a 1/2" to 3 1/2" deep allowing us to use various means of covering the seed. Lightly discing, harrowing, dragging, tilling or even just cultipacking will do the trick.

Often we add clover seed which should not be covered deeply (1/4" is perfect) so this is why we say...

Till, broadcast larger seed and fertilizer, cover (roll or lightly till and roll) broadcast small seeds like clover or alfalfa and roll to cover again.

This link shows that the only thing that really changes by shallow or deep planting depths of grains is the time to emerge Drilling depths

 

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: mattski
It is a small plot that I'm trying to do all I can to keep deer using well into bow season. In year's past the clover has died off too early and I'm looking to add some late season food to it. I've got half in brassicas and half in clover right now.

Ok...good reason to add rye for a late winter draw. It's also the reason I use 3 plots instead of one or two.

You are on the right track but I think you'll have better results having one plot soley into rye and oats perhaps.

Heck..give it a try and see what happens and be sure to let us know if it works for you. I suspect that the clover would be to competitive early on but I may be wrong...

 

[Limb Chicken]

Re: Cereal Grains - more about oats

Planted the 26th of August. Rye with clover. Hand seeded and harrowed in. Looks ok a few spots but the rain helped a ton.

Welters winter rye and HS premium clover mix.

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains - rye plantings

Looking good Limb! I know you planted that a little on the early side so let us know what it looks like in October?

If it should happen to get "too mature" you could always clip it and slow it down a bit.

Weather is cooling off dramtically so that may slow down growth depending if we get lots of cloudy cool weather versus warm sunny days.

Thanks for sharing the pics! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[BOWSTRING]

Re: Cereal Grains - rye plantings

I broadcasted my rye on August 31. It sat dry for 2 days befpre Gustav gave us rain. I didn't get to cover it up because my hillbilly disc broke. (log mith metal straps) I did get the ground roughed up a little then drove over it to pack it with the ATV. As of Sept. 7th it dosen't seem to be coming up very well if any. The other plots that I was able to drag after puttiing the seed out came up better than the ones I didn't.
Might have to do with the cool weather we've been having but that would have to be answered by someone with more knowledge about it than me. I know it's not growing well though. I know it not from lack of seed either. Welter's sent me 56 lbs and I put it all on the ground in maybe a half acre area.
My rape and turnips I planted a week before are doing great. (they got covered) They started coming up in about 4 days and are maybe 3 inches already. THANKS DBLTREE AND HUNTYAK for your input on this plot very much apperciated.

 

[Crimson Arrows]

Re: Cereal Grains - rye plantings

I broadcast rye and last year before a rain into a crop and it didn't come up for about 14 days. we ae getting TONS of rain but the lack od seed soil may delay it a bit but DBLTREE will have to answer that one. I saw my rye planted August 24th come up great in 10 days but I packed it. The Rye I put out in my beans hasn't yet but it will I think in another few days. A little warmth wouldn't hurt! It'll grow!