Edge Feathering and bedding areas

Discussion in 'Dbltree's corner' started by dbltree, Jul 26, 2006.

  1. letemgrow

    letemgrow PMA Member

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    Cut them whenever you want to, it is usually easier to cut when dormant since the weather is better then. I have done some hinge cuttings and TSI in July and it required a lot of water. :D
     
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  3. dbltree

    dbltree Super Moderator

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    plus I hate chiggars! :thrwrck::D
     
  4. letemgrow

    letemgrow PMA Member

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    Those too!! :rolleyes:
     
  5. IQDM

    IQDM New Member

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    great! Hinge cutting is the one thing that I have never done... I have done food plots for years and learned alot about NWSG this winter. I planted a few acres of NWSG this early spring and now i'm on to hinge cutting! I am climbing the ladder one step at a time, each project is one step closer to 170 class glory! ;) or at least keeping a few more 120's out of harms way!
     
  6. dbltree

    dbltree Super Moderator

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    Might be late spring but not to late to do some hingin'! :way:

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    Did some edge feathering to do some trail blocking and funneling, tipped em over into the field

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    The used the tractor and loader to swing them around

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    Creating a "fence like" effect

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    but a funneling effect at the desired opening

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    Blocked off some other runways and created screening at the same time by tipping over some large trees

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    Interplanted oak seedlings amongst trees I hinged earlier in the winter

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    Using the downed tops as a means of protecting the trees from marauding bucks in the fall

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    Easy to see the runways now blocked

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    The little hiding spots the hinged trees created

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    and the tangled mess of tops that now provide browse, bedding and screening cover

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    Spend a few minutes with the chainsaw every chance you get and vastly improve your chances of holding mature whitetails on your property... ;)
     
  7. letemgrow

    letemgrow PMA Member

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    How many chains do you go through a year Paul? :D
     
  8. dgallow

    dgallow New Member

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    You been hidin in there tryin to slay a tom? :D
     
  9. DE2IA

    DE2IA Active Member

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    That looks great!
     
  10. FarmlandQDM

    FarmlandQDM New Member

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    I would try to avoid hinge cutting any oak after March 1 in southern Iowa. When you leave a large fresh wound like a hinge cut in a living tree you make that tree pretty susceptable to fungus, disease, or insects. Root rot kills plenty of oaks in Iowa and root rot spores disperse during the summer months. By making large opennings in the bark with a hinge cut you will increase the chance of infecting your timber stand. Oak wilt is a pretty serious problem already in Iowa for red oak species( red oak, black oak, shingle oak, pin oak, etc), because of this I try to avoid hinge cutting any red oak species and prefer to cut them off clean at the stump.

    Edge feathering and hinge cutting are great tools, I do alot of it and I think it is hard to beat the quick fix benefits of slash and trash TSI as I call it. I also think it is important for people to realize by doing this you are stopping almost all oak regeneration in that area for likely the rest of your life .... so think about were you are going to manage this way ... it is probably not the best thing to do in some areas.
     
  11. letemgrow

    letemgrow PMA Member

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    How does that affect oak regeneration? I get more young oaks by opening up the canopy and releasing oak trees by hinge cutting trees down. Obviously other than oaks trees, they are left standing. I am left with shagbark hickory since they are far more shade tolerant if trees are not hinge cut to release oaks.

    Here is a pic of a spot where I used hinge cutting to get rid of hickory and leave the oaks I have. There are 8 young oaks coming back now from acorns off those few big trees from that area.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. dbltree

    dbltree Super Moderator

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    Thanks for bringing that up Rob...I have some black oaks that have died from oak wilt so I am very careful not to do ANY cutting around any red oak species ths time of year.

    Even tipping a tree over and scraping up an oak could leave an open wound that is an invitation for oak wilt.

    Many of the pics posted were cut back in February but I do hinge a few "junk" trees that are in areas with no oaks nearby.

    When the chiggars come out...I put the saw away...;)

    In regards to oak regeneration...in the areas with "parent" oaks I find the same thing as letemgrow...oak seedlings popping up after hinging.

    Where there are no oaks I interplant oak seedlings so for me it is working out well. I would also add that one can still burn even in hinged areas to promote oak regeneration and help setback invasives...:way:
     
  13. FarmlandQDM

    FarmlandQDM New Member

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    The whole point of hinge cutting trees is to keep those trees alive and create a living canopy of trees, brush, and vines between 2 to 15 feet off the ground .... which is fantastic for wildlife ... but does not let much light to the ground. Look at most of the photos in this post, you don't see alot of clear forest floor that oaks thrive in and there is a difference between having acorns germinate and providing and environment that oaks can outcompete maple, basswood, buckeyes and other shade tolerant species and grow into mature mast producers.

    Paul, I think you know I am probably one of the biggest proponents of prescribed fire in timber in southeast Iowa ... but I am curious if you have ever actually burned through these slashed areas once invasives have become established and successfully promoted oak regeneration .... fire is an incredible tool but it is not a magic wand.

    Once again I think this hinge cutting is great for wildlife and anyone walking my property will find lots of it, but if you have little or no experience with forest management I would suggest consulting a professional before starting up the saw and not base your forest management decisions by what you read on the internet.
     
  14. IQDM

    IQDM New Member

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    What is your experiences on hinge cutting poplar trees? Do they send up shoots off the trunk like a basswood or boxelder? Will a decent sized poplar survive a hinge cut?

    [​IMG]
     
  15. dgallow

    dgallow New Member

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    Trying to glean a bit from your experience in setting back invasives and and shade tolerants in oak stands. How many burns (or burn frequency) and how long to eliminate hickory and elm? What size of hickory or elm won't be affected by fire? The Noble consultants made the same sugestion to me and just curious of what to expect and the time frame.

    Thanks for your time and input!
     
  16. letemgrow

    letemgrow PMA Member

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    Would you say this hinge cutting pic is a job well done or what would you improve upon? I hinge cut the hickory trees and most never sprouted back. I then planted some hybrid white oak acorns, american chestnuts, Northern Red oaks and downy serviceberry back in the spots.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. dbltree

    dbltree Super Moderator

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    I have zero experience with those other then seeing what happens when they are clear cut but perhaps Farmland or others may be able to comment?

    If you read through my threads you wil see I continually advise walking your woodlots of your forester first and learn to identify your tree species, howver I have never met a forester who was an advocate of hinging. Each landowner must also identify thier own goals and decide if timber or whitetails are a priority.

    Reading the TSI thread first is highly advisable before firing up a chainsaw...:)

    That's not my primary reason for burning Rob...the oak seedlings are coming up and thriving in the hinge cut areas which in reality have shaded almost nothing. The invasives are culled via the hinging so they are really a non-factor in this and one reason for hinging in the first place and burning helps to keep them from returning.

    Right now I am burning to promote native grasses and forbs and make some attempt to hold back invasives like hickories, maples and elms.

    Regeneration is occuring without burning at my place and the hinge cut trees are helping to protect young oak saplings from traveling bucks. I have no idea how many trees i have hinged but obviously it's a pile! :D

    None of those trees have created a shading problem and the oak seedlings I plant are all thriving.I don't pretend to have the experience you have so I can only comment on what I have seen on my farms over a number of years.

    In regards to burning and oak regeneration I am passing on information gleaned from my USFWS contacts who specialize in doing so across southern Iowa. They have encouraged me to burn even in hinged areas because it has positive effects in reducing invasives and encouraging oak regeneration.

    Having said all that...this thread is about utilizing hinging to create thick nasty, secure bedding areas, to increase native browse, to create funnels and bottlenecks by hinging cull trees. That process does have a very positive effect on increasing oak regeneration but if that is the primary goal...I would encourage one to read the Timber Stand Improvement and Oak Savanna threads where all cull trees are completely killed and even removed.

    In the meantime I will continue to share how my own wild and planted oaks respond to hinging and burning to better help others decide what might work best for them and achieving thier goals....:)
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2010
  18. dbltree

    dbltree Super Moderator

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    I wanted to respond to some of Farmland's concerns and rellieve any confusion that may have arisen because of them.

    Reading "stuff" on the internet can be confusing and inaccurate at times but this forum is not "the internet" but rather my best efforts to provide accurate and truthful information.

    God has placed a willingness and desire in my heart to help landowners improve their habitat for whitetails and wildlife and that in turn requires that I personally do a great deal of research before sharing many of the things I do.

    If you return to the beginning of this thread you will see that I listed the professionals I turn to and rely on for timber management advice and that I encourage ALL landowners to walk their property with trusted professionals first.

    Each and every one of these men have been on my farm and I continue to rely on them for information, especially when it is something I have not tried before.


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    <O:pWith that in mind I would like to further address some concerns

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    I mean no disrespect to Farmland but that statement I find to be false and misleading and I base that I my own experience and that of others who contribute to this forum.


    I don't hinge trees to regenerate oaks but have found that it can be a positive side affect and you will not learn that from ANY professionals because they look upon hinging with disdain.
    </O:p

    <O:p</O:p

    Is it possible to encourage oak regeneration by hinging trees?

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    Absolutely! I have been hinging trees for many years now and doing so has had a positive effect on oak regeneration!
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    The following are recent pictures of white and black oak seedlings and saplings not only surviving but thriving in my hingecuts where before...none existed.

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    The young white oaks show up well this time of year with their reddish colored leaves


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    Black oak seedling

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    They exist in varying stages of growth because my hinge cutting efforts have been ongoing over a period of years.

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    They quickly grow up thru the hinged tops, protected from marauding hormone charged bucks

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    [​IMG]<O:p></O:p>


    I have been working on these projects in some cases for 15 years so I feel I can safely say that oak regeneration is indeed more then just possible but a highly probably result.


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    I would also urge everyone to bear in mind that ALL hinge cuts are not going to be the same, with different soils, trees and goals involved so oak regeneration may not happen in all cases. It can happen if you properly manage your timber by hinging cull trees and promoting the growth of oaks in ways we will continue to share.
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    Can fire have a positive influence on oak regeneration?


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    Absoutely! I personally do not have years of experience burning in timber to verify this but the professionals I trust have. The Southern Iowa Oak Alliance, the USFWS and IDNR Forestry Dept. have been involved in doing timber burns for many years and they have found that there are few situations where fire would not have a positive effect on oak regeneration.


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    Oaks tend to be fire tolerant while many other shade tolerant species are not so even in hinge cut areas these professionals have encouraged me to burn and to pass that information on through these forums.

    <O:p</O:p
    <O:pCommon sense tells us that if fire can discourage invasives and encourage oaks...then it does indeed have a positive influence even in hinged areas. </O:p

    In my hinge cuts red cedars pop up everywhere and in some stituations that may be desired but if not fire can keep them from invading.

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    I personally do not advocate hinging oaks other then shingle oaks but it is important to remember that oak wilt is a problem in our area and cutting red oaks after March can encourage the spread of the disease.<O:p></O:p>

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    Oak Wilt
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    I personally eat, sleep and drink habitat, second only to God and my family, knowing and understanding how best to improve my habitat and then share that with others is a huge part of my life.

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    <O:pI share that lest anyone think I take this lightly or that in any circumstance I would knowingly share poor information or incorrect information.

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    <O:pIf oak regeneration is your priority then I strongly urge you to read the TSI and Oak Savanna threads but if you would like to take advantage of the positive influence hinging has on oak regeneration, then we will show you how to do that here in this thread.

    It is unlikely you will find this information anywhere else except "on the internet" and each landowner can take from this information whatever is useful in meeting their own personal habitat goals.

    </O:p
    Hinging can be a valuable tool for landowners wishing to hold mature whitetails on their property but obtain as much knowledge as you can about the timber resources on your land before embarking on such a project... ;)<O:p</O:p
     
  19. letemgrow

    letemgrow PMA Member

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    The more I looked over my hinge cut hickory area, I was floored by the number of baby white oaks that are popping back up from the few large ones I have left. It was more than I cared to count so I will go back through them in 5-10 years and select the most vigorous saplings to keep and cut the rest back for browse, cover and to allow more sunlight in.
     
  20. FarmlandQDM

    FarmlandQDM New Member

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    Paul the reason you find most professionals have a disdain for hinge cutting is because most foresters are focused on oak regeneration when they manage timber. They don’t care so much about creating fantastic wildlife habitat but they do care about insuring there will be oak forests in Iowa for many years to come.
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    One problem the science of forest management has is the long term rotation of the crop you are trying to manage for. It is easy to see mistakes in managing a food plot because most food plot crop rotations are one year. If you see it doesn’t work you can do something different the next year until you get it right. Unfortunately, timber management mistakes sometimes take 30 years or more to understand the consequences of your decisions. Most foresters have the advantage of looking at many stages of past timber practices on various sites. This gives them an advantage at understanding what result a practice used today will have on a piece of timber 30, 40, 50 years down the road.
    <O:p</O:p
    Oak are fire species trees, mature oaks have thick bark that can usually resist short duration ground fires and oaks will often resprout from the stump if burned off. The idea behind a prescribed fire to rescue a stand of oak timber from invasives sounds great in theory and does work sometimes. In eastern <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com[​IMG]</st1:State>Iowa what you will find most of the time is a challenge to get enough fuel and the right conditions to even carry a fire through a stand of invasives. If you are lucky enough to have adequate fuel in the right condition to generate the heat required to kill most of the invasives, it will also kill many of your young oak trees … and I know this from practice not theory. The advantage oak does have is that they usually will resprout again while invasives usually do not … they just reseed. Try to find a patch of “invasives” and burn through it this year …. I’ll bet anyone a case of beer that has a property east of I-35 they can’t kill off invasives tree species in a timber stand dominated by something other than oak with fire …. it just doesn’t work with fire alone in eastern <st1:State w:st="on">Iowa</st1:State> but western Iowa Loess Hills country does have a better chance at a rescue burn succeeding.
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    Paul this spat reminds me of the online disagreement you and I had several years ago on QDMA about autumn olive. I wonder if you still think it is such a wonderful shrub to plant …. I do believe with your passion in time you will understand what I am saying with this subject too. You have a wealth of knowledge to share on here and I know your intentions are nothing but good and you simply want to help people … I don’t seem to have the time to even read all the information you provide let alone contribute as much as you and it is hard to understand how you can do so much for this site, I do applaud your efforts. Once again, I am a huge fan of hinge cutting, it has tremendous benefits for wildlife. What got my panties in a bundle is the idea that this is a way to regenerate oak. I fear many people will read that and try this thinking it is the thing to do for oak regeneration. I think with the energy, passion, and desire you have perhaps you can put enough effort into this practice to truly get oak regen, but most landowners probably can’t sustain that level of passion and succeed in regenerating an oak stand in areas where they hinge cut trees … and that is why you have professional foresters telling you the don’t like it.
    <O:p</O:p
     
  21. dbltree

    dbltree Super Moderator

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    Rob I hope I have made that clear in this thread that if that is the goal then follow the advice given in the TSI and Oak savanna threads.

    On the other hand there is nothing wrong with taking advantage of proper management in a hinged are to encourage oaks to grow and flourish.

    People are learning, (including SE Iowa foresters) more about hinging and and how they can at the same time take advantage of the opportunity to advance oak regeneration.

    I agree burning is very difficult but that is no reason not to make landowners aware of it's attributes. Burning is difficult at first but over time as fuel loads increase it becomes easier and then benefits greater.

    I am greatful to you for inspiring me to begin timber burns and since then other professionals have also encouraged me and shared the results of burning over a period of years. To not share that would be a dis-service to my friends on this forum because their are too many positive benefits....even with out oak regeneration.

    Here are a few examples of situations where oak regeneration and fire can work and one where it most likely would be difficult at best.

    These hinged trees have very little canopy and there is plenty of light

    [​IMG]

    These are hinged hickories and shingles around a black oak where again it has opened up canopy making both oak rengeration and fire a possibility.

    [​IMG]

    This is an example of very thick canopy and the type of "jungle" where it is very unlikely one could get a burn going and without some micro management it is highly doubtful and oak seedlings would survive.

    [​IMG]

    Looking back thru this thread however I hope everyone can see that I do some micro-management by planting oak seedlings and spraying around them. If canopy is a problem I use brush nippers and open the area up until the sapling can rise above.

    These threads are long but they are chock full of great information shared by a number of knowlegable people, so I encourage everyone to take time to read the "book" rather then just a chapter before coming to any conclusion....:)
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010

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