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My thoughts on leasing

Question for you HCH. What if you turn the tables around. What if you or a family member owned 200 acres of prime hunting ground and you were not a hunter? Lets say you inherited the land or it was paid off years ago. You're 70 yrs old and all you draw as income is Social Security, which is barely enough to pay other bills. Given what you got, what makes more sense to do? Sell the land and let someone possibly section it off and develop it? Or lease it to someone that is likely going to respect that land and you take care of it and keep in your family for years to come?
 
If I owned 200 acres and I didn't hunt and my kids weren't interested in hunting, I wouldn't own in it in the 1st place. I would sell it, buy a motorhome with a toy hauler, and travel with no permanent address.
 
I am a nonleaser that will never lease, looking in at you leasers' lives. Like iowaqdm stated, "Once money is exchanged on a property to hunt, it will always be expected." Eventually it will be to the highest bidder and it may not be you. The retired farmer sitting in the cafe with his buddies and one of them states that he is leasing his land for hunting and the word spreads like wildfire. If one is doing it, then the others want in on the action. It is human nature. Like I stated as an example, why pay to hunt at the 4h grounds when they are going to let hunters in anyway to manage the deer as they are overpopulated? Now that money has exchanged hands, what is the chance of the 4h going back to letting hunters hunt for free. Slim to none?? One of my clients in IA farms all of the ground around the 4h ground. He had no problem with the 4h letting hunters in for free, as his crops were always getting hit hard. He and his brother and family bowhunt and shotgun hunt too. The greed of paying to hunt has caused issues down at the 4h and a lot of fighting. Guys are not respecting each other cause they all pay to hunt and he and I believe that money is the root of all of it. Once leasing is started, it won't go back to the buddy system. You have taken that land away from the knock on the door, do you need any help on your farm, here is a gift certificate to take your wife out for dinner, thanks for letting me hunt; I appreciate your kind gesture. BTW, grain prices are at an all time high and subsidy payments hit the farmers mailbox so don't tell me the farmer needs the extra cash to pay his taxes. The subsidy payments are by taxpayers so you are already leasing his land in actuality. I know this statement may piss off a few farmers, but it is the truth with no sugar coating. Farmers aren't hurting and your lease payment isn't keeping the wolves away from his door. Leasing doesn't affect me and never will as I see it in my lifetime. I can come to IA anytime I want to hunt and hunt for free on all of my farms as I have a relationship with landowners and my family owns land. I have 23 million acres of public land to hunt in NM and I have already secured several private ranches to hunt on with my wifes' connection as a banker. She mentioned that we like to bowhunt and the ranchers told her that we are welcome anytime. Go ahead and lease all you want, but I believe you are cutting your own throats in the long run. It is a no win, greed for ground situation, that can have no positive outcome IMO.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The retired farmer sitting in the cafe with his buddies and one of them states that he is leasing his land for hunting and the word spreads like wildfire.</div></div>
This reminds me of my other hobby (Ponds and Koi). It use to be that we could go out and get rocks from the farmer for free. Take them home and use them to build our ponds and waterfalls. Well, now farmers sell the rocks to you so much a pound or by the load. Good thing I got while the gettin was good.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Well, now farmers sell the rocks to you so much a pound or by the load. Good thing I got while the gettin was good.
</div></div>

Now....this HAS to be a joke.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nope. Grocery stores even sell them in their parking lots. </div></div>

WOW! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif
 
Glacial deposit rocks are being sold all over for landscaping. Big smooth rocks torn out of farmers fields, sold in front yards. I laugh every time I drive by them.
 
Grocery stores also sell hedgeapples, also obviously brought in by farmers or someone. People think that by placing hedgeapples around their home that this will keep out bugs and mice.LMAO!!!! Can you believe that people actually think that a pest enters their home and says, Hedgeapples, let's get the hell out!!!!!" IA state university did a test on them and determined that a cockroach doesn't like to sit in the oil extracted from a hedgeapple; that was their big finding. I am sure they don't like to sit in lots of different types of oils. Oh, and the belief by the hedgeapple people is that the more rotten the better they work. Cracks me up, rotten hedgeapples laying around a house. I see it all of the time when I get a new client.
I have also seen where people stick dead tomato vines under their bed to repel spiders. LOL.
 
HCH,

I do think that leasing ground is part of the problem, but where it stems from is the root of the problem. Leasing land really got out of control once outfitting started, especially in the midwest states and a few other states. Outfitting started or took over in these areas, when the NR tags went through the roof in states like IL, MO, KS, etc. IL is a perfect example where there are bascially unlimited NR tags, enough that they do not sell all of them every year. Once this happened, hunting became a business for some and the leases started happening. Before this leases were relatively limited and didn't have a huge impact.

I also believe that outfitting has caused the huge surge for private land acquisition, I think many guys are under the belief that they better buy it while they can, before the outfitters get to their area and start leasing and buying up ground. This in turn has drove the price to purchase land up and then the trickle down affect happens. Next, the average guy can't buy land in his area because it is through the roof and is also worried that if NR tags continue to increase and much of the ground around his continues to be bought up he will be out with no place to hunt, so they in turn consider leasing an option. Again, in areas where this can quickly become a reality Northeast and Southern counties in IA, this thinking is not at all crazy because they will be the first to be hit hard with outfitters once NR tags increase, many of us have seen this happen in other states and no that it can quickly become a reality.

I strongly believe if you keep the NR tags in check, you will keep the amount of leased land down. Let those NR tags go through the roof and the only way any of us will be able to hunt many areas is by paying an outfitter, buying ground, or leasing. I know you say that you have plenty of places to hunt back in IA now and so do I, but I can gurantee you that those boys in Pike County use to say the same thing before the IL DNR increased the NR tags, now they don't even consider asking to hunt in that county without their pocket book open.

I have talked with local outfitters in IL and the ONLY reason that they haven't bought significant ground in IA yet is because they can only get about 15-20 clients a year, where they are getting 2-3 times that a week in IL. Keep the NR tags down, write letters, make phone calls, whatever you have to do and IA will continue to have the best hunting in the US without a doubt.

As for now, the guys that buy and lease land to help protect their hunting future as well as their friends and families I don't blame them, they are realist and can forsee that their is a good chance that outfitters will be here sooner rather than later and they are just trying to protect one of the things that means the most to them. I will buy the first chunk of land I can if I have the money for this same reason. I guess in some views this is hurting the future of hunting, yet I will be introducing my family and my friend's families to the sport so I think I will be helping the hunting future.

Kratz
 
I hear what you are saying and I agree to a point. Answer this then, Why are all of the states with crappy whitetail trophy possibilities (example Maryland)leasing? Nonresidents didn't cause their problems. Greed and the willingness to pay instead of refusing to pay to hunt started leasing in those eastern states.My buddy from MN wanted to come down and hunt with me and I wanted to go up and hunt with him. MN installed a reciprocancy law so that they charge what IA does. Neither of us want a deer bad enough to pay $400 to $500 to hunt in each others' state. I can buy an over the counter nonresident elk tag in CO cheaper than hunt a damn whitetail in MN when I was resident in IA. DUMB.Nonresidents are great for the economy, tags, fuel,restaurants, motels, etc. I like to travel and hunt and I sure would hate to see CO shut down their over the counter elk tag for bowhunters. How about this; implement a law that states Nonresidents must hunt self-guided or with a friend, no outfitted hunts for pay; only residents can hire outfitters. Pretty easy law to enforce IMO. A cap needs placed on tags like NM has. Example 80% of tags to residents, 20% to nonresidents. Make a nonresident buy a doe tag and shoot a doe before a buck.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hardcorehunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hear what you are saying and I agree to a point. Answer this then, Why are all of the states with crappy whitetail trophy possibilities (example Maryland)leasing? Nonresidents didn't cause their problems. Greed and the willingness to pay instead of refusing to pay to hunt started leasing in those eastern states.My buddy from MN wanted to come down and hunt with me and I wanted to go up and hunt with him. MN installed a reciprocancy law so that they charge what IA does. Neither of us want a deer bad enough to pay $400 to $500 to hunt in each others' state. I can buy an over the counter nonresident elk tag in CO cheaper than hunt a damn whitetail in MN when I was resident in IA. DUMB.Nonresidents are great for the economy, tags, fuel,restaurants, motels, etc. I like to travel and hunt and I sure would hate to see CO shut down their over the counter elk tag for bowhunters. How about this; implement a law that states Nonresidents must hunt self-guided or with a friend, no outfitted hunts for pay; only residents can hire outfitters. Pretty easy law to enforce IMO. A cap needs placed on tags like NM has. Example 80% of tags to residents, 20% to nonresidents. Make a nonresident buy a doe tag and shoot a doe before a buck. </div></div>

Many good points and I will agree with them all. I do agree that some areas are getting leased up that don't need to be. Again, I don't think this would have ever sprung without the Outfitters moving in to nearby states and leasing up ground which in turn implemented a fear in people. Again this is a fear that is realistic because when it does happen it will happen fast.

As far as NR hunting, I definitely enjoy it too. I have only headed out of state a few times thus far but have big plans to hit NM, AZ, and WY for elk and mullies in the next 4-8 years (whenever I can draw). I believe that it is a privledge to be able to hunt these states and do not mind at all if it takes years and years of applying to draw a tag, because when I do draw I know that it will be a trip well worth the wait. I think IA runs its NR tags the same way, 3 years isn't a bad wait to draw and it in general is worth the wait as compared to heading to other whitetail states. I also agree with the NR tag numbers, make them 80-20 in favor of residents, do this across the nation for all states, that way you can't gurantee a draw in any state and again you keep the outfitters down.

The harvesting of a doe is a good idea, never did understand why this can't be implemented or make it so that they give you a buck and a doe tag and if you fill the doe tag the first year you earn an extra preference point the next year, some sort of incentive as many of the guys that come from other states, come back every chance they get.

I guess this comes down to one thing though, the leasing, outfitting, etc. is hear to stay and although not in IA heavily yet it isn't that far off. The only way around it is to join the crowd, not hunt, or move to a state that isn't being hit like the midwest. I for one love hunting to much to ever give it up, I would pay to hunt if I had to and I believe in a way that many of us already do, I help the farmer he lets me hunt, might not be cash out of my pocket but it definitely is time and the old saying time is money. I do feel that this is a great way to earn a landowners respect and will always continue to repay them in any way I can as I am greatful for the opprotunity to hunt their ground. If it came down to it and I was on my last piece of private ground because the rest had been leased up and the landowner said it is yours first but I am gonna need some cash to hunt, I would shell out the cash.
 
I agree quite abit, but really did outfitting and nonresidents lead to leasing in those crappy eastern states? Hunters' numbers are down in those states and nationwide. A few more points I would like to make.Outfitters and nonresidents haven't ruined the west. Glad to have them. Both are welcome in my world. They didn't effect my 30 years of bowhunting in IA either. I have a friend that has guided nonresident bowhunters in Boone for 10 plus years. He gets a few clients a year. Surely helps the economy a little, makes him a little money, local bars benefit, food eating places, and motels. Not to mention the friendships he has made. They kill deer on my friends' private ground, that no Iowan would get to kill anyway, as it is private ground. No harm IMO. Another question-Why would a nonresident lease ground in IA? He only gets drawn rarely? Sounds dumb to me to lease ground for 10 years so that I might get drawn 2-3 times in that 10 year time frame. I think the real culprit behind the entire race for ground; the lease it up or somebody will get it from me attitude, and high prices of the ground, is the Albia buck and the greed of killing a buck like him, trophy hunting, and the glory and bragging rights that go with it.
 
Interesting read for sure...I just managed to kill 90 minutes at work getting caught up on this and a few other threads....hope the IT man isn't monitoring me! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Some of you landowners will need to hire me when I get fired for being on IW too much! hahaha
 
I believe I made a good point about leasing and why I think it is wrong with this post battling with an east coaster on another forum:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a different scenario for you to ponder...cause it happens. You have a ranch in NM or Colorado that allows you to hunt for a handshake, along with others you have no control over. All is good right? Nice free ride on someone elses dime right? Well I come along with a truck load of 100 cedar posts for fencing and offer them to the landowner for exclusive rights with the promise of 100 or more posts on the next trip. (fence posts are a hot comodity in the west) Landowner agrees and your no longer able to hunt this ranch. I didn't pay him a lick of cash....I just cut a lot of wood.....most are blow downs that would have eventually rotted away. I paid him with sweat equity, not cash. Sure the Cedar has cash value, just like you cutting wood for some farmer in Iowa.
Something tells me you would have a problem with that as well.......</div></div>
Yea my problem with it is that you just didn't give the posts to the guy and LET him decide out of the goodness of his heart that you were going to be the sole hunter on his place. You demanded it with your "gift" of posts, instead of letting him make up his mind. You could have had the place for the end of time with your kind gesture. Instead you have set yourself up for expected monetary payments and no friendship is built. Another guy might come along with better posts. I had sole permission on 3 farms in IA due to the owner of the land WANTING it that way; not me demading because I helped him build fence or cut him some firewood.
 
My thoughts on leasing...I had four choices. Public ground, knock on doors to get permission, leasing or buying. Public ground was an option but I didn't like all the bad that goes with it. Knocking on doors works but just as you get settled in you are getting booted off because relatives or a friend wants to hunt it, or it gets leased out from under you. Now I was down to buying or leasing. I really would have liked to buy. Who can argue the personal satisfation of owning your own piece. You can plant food plots, have a few enclosed towers to hunt out of when the weather is bad, maybe even a cabin. I figured 100 acres would do at 2000 an acre, throw in a tractor and cabin and you are looking at $250,000. That's when I got to thinking about it. If you have $250,000 in your back pocket and you know anything about investing, you should be able to make 10% a year off your money over time...that's $25,000 a year! I thought, how much would it cost me to lease that same 100 acres? Worst case @ $60 an acre, $6000.
Now, I thought, I have my $250,000 in my back pocket plus $19,000 to spend on an elk hunt and maybe even a griz every year! Another draw back to buying is the number of acres that you can hunt. I lease 1000 acres for $2000. That is a poor mans way to hunt more acres. I have gave my land owner 2 raises on my own in the last ten years. He fights me every year about over paying him and I tell him he can buy breakfast the next time. I still help him from time to time with odd jobs. It's still a friendship, I just pay him for what I use of his. He's happy and I'm very happy. Just my thoughts.
 
I have read this whole thing and will continue my many year long stance against leasing. For all those who truly believe that leasing is the inevitable future and nothing can or will stop it I say you are very wrong, and it won't be any kind of boycott by hunters that stops it. It will happen when there aren't any hunt able populations of deer, or not enough trophy hunting to sustain it. If the Farm Bureau and other groups get their way and let the legislature govern the deer hunting and scale back the population levels to 1980 levels there won't be much leasing and very few outfitters to spark it. The very plain truth is that IF THERE ARE NO DEER TO HUNT NO ONE WILL LEASE LAND TO HUNT THEM. If you look at the trends for the last 5 years you will see that as we kill more and more does and the population decreases from a peak harvest of 211,000 deer to just over 140,000 in 3 years, and we are now issuing more tags for more seasons than ever in the past, and these groups are still demanding a greater doe slaughter. Where will that put us in another 5 years? At the current rate that will put us at a harvest of 80,000 or 90,000 with far less than half being bucks of any kind, much less trophies. When we had those kind of harvest numbers in the past, during the early 90's, but the buck harvest was 70% to 80% and even with that we didn't see many problems with NR hunters or land owners, or outfitters, or leasing. We also had less than half the total number of deer hunters so the competition for land was less, and the many thousands of acres that have been bulldozed or pulled out of CRP to plant $5.00 corn or $14.00 beans were still good deer habitat. I know that I have played this song for several years now, but feel free to correct me, but I think much of what I have predicted is coming to pass.

Leasing can be stopped other ways as well. Such as keeping a cap on NR licenses, licensing and regulating outfitters with fees and bonds, special regulations for any one leasing hunting rights. I know that the lease is only for access to hunting land, but if it weren't for the deer that supposedly belongs to all of us, no one would pay for that access. I also know that the next argument is that the farmers feed the deer their crops and should have the right to get paid back for that. I personally think that is kind of a copout. We don't see them marketing leasing for squirrels, or raccoons, or possums, or rabbits, or the neighbors cows, all of which eat lots of crops. They have targeted deer and to a smaller degree turkeys because they have learned that there is a market for those leases. Different types and levels of crop insurance already help reimburse for these losses. There are certain loss levels that have been accepted for decades as part of doing the business of farming, so why now try to cash in on it by using the losses as an excuse to justify leasing hunting rights.

For those who feel that their lease is both justified and affordable, I will ask the same question as someone else did earlier. This will sound like I am picking on Double A but I an not, it is just that he is one of the few to step up and express his personal reasons for leasing in trying to give us the other side. If you currently lease 220 acres for %1500.00, which is less than $7.00 per acre, what will really happen if and when that does jump to $60.00 an acre or $13,200.00 per year? If you had to pay that today, would you and if you would how would you? I am sure that you don't believe that will ever happen but I know of places here that are leasing for up to $40.00 per acre, so it really might not be that far off. Many will say that if it causes a hardship on their families then they will just quit hunting but as long as you can afford it it won't effect you. I wonder how long it would take for these hunters quiting bow hunting and there for not buying new equipment to have an impact on your business and there by making that lease unaffordable. What is your magic number and how quickly will it be surpassed?

I firmly believe that leasing is very bad for hunting and as long as we accept the idea that I better do it before someone else does because it is the way it will be, we are destroying what we have for future generations. If it take the average hunter spending several thousand dollars just for a place for him and perhaps his family to reserve a place to hunt then we will have very few average hunters and just a few rich hunters with very deep pockets to either pay for leases or to pay an outfitter who in turn pays even bigger bucks for the lease. If we drop to a very small number of rich hunters who will only spend the dollars to hunt trophies then what happens to the doe population and the deer herd in general? If it explodes like I'm sure it would then what the farmers loose in crops to deer currently will be just a drop in the bucket. While I can understand some of the reasons a person might purchase a lease I still think that it will ultimately lead to our downfall.
 
I think this may be a never ending battle. I don't have it out for outfitters completey, I just hate to see NR tags increase because this will allow outfitters to come in and lease 20-30,000 acres and run 50-60 guys a week. The big money operations that come with an unlimited number of NR tags is the only thing I see bringing the IA hunting down.

As far as allowing 2 or 3 guys to come over and hunt on your ground every year and to make a little cash off them that is fine, but to me it is exactly like leasing the land, it is tied up (even though it is owned), but only the few who pay get to hunt it (again the landowners right to do whatever he would like and I know a lot of guys that would allow this if it helped them pay their mortgage every year). I will agree that the outfitters are a good thing in small numbers, educated in what they do and putting hunters in situations where they will have quality hunts, such as many of the outfitters out west, you don't get too many clients out there if you don't put them on an exciting hunt. Here however, the outfitters don't do much, they provide you with dinner, a place to hunt and if you are lucky you aren't sitting in a stand where a guy has been the last 6 weeks, I think this is the major difference, the quality of outfitting is 100x worse than what you would get on an hunt out west.

If you keep the NR tags low, keep the number of hunters coming into each state low, the outfitters who are there will have less guys to cater to but at the same rate will probably get more money for his hunts because he has more time to scout, spend with his clients, and put them in a situation where they will more than likely get a shot at an animal (similar to what happens out west and your buddy in Boone). This is how outfitting should be in my mind, it should never get to a point where a success rate is 10-20% and when you don't see a mature animal all week it is just how it is. I would never expect to kill an animal on an outfitted trip, but I would expect something there to make me want to come back, something that I think the majority of your guides out west will provide and something that very few large operation whitetail guides will provide.

I mean when you talk with the outfitters in the west they usually have kill rates in the 70-80% range and shot rates approaching 100% during their peak times such as rut. Now take a typical large outfitter in IL during their peak rut and you get 30% at best. Take the outfitter in IA where you can't draw the tags as easy, where a big operation gets you 20 guys hunting all year and you get a kill rate of 60-70%. I have a buddy who guided in IL at a camp that got 20-30% success rates, he switched locations (same company) to IA and they went 15 of 17 on bow kills his first year and 14 of 18 the next.

I think some good points have been made in this thread. And hope that everyone expresses their opinions in letters to their Reps, whehter it be on outfitting, potentail regulations on leases, etc.
 
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