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Mythical "space"

HorseDoctor

PMA Member
It's a slow time of the year here, so why not discuss a controversial point? :thrwrck: Not really trying to start a fight, just do a little educating. (Can't help myself, it's what I do ;) ) I recently noticed on another thread a few comments about hitting deer with broadheads in the "space between" the lungs and the spine. Though technically there is a separation between the lungs and the spinal column, it is infinitesimally small (a minute fraction of an inch) and shaped such that this cannot happen. In the living animal the lungs actually extend up on either side of the spinal column such that it is virtually impossible to thread a broadhead through any such space without letting enough air in &/or blood out to kill them fairly quickly. Once the lungs have collapsed in death there may appear to be a gap, but in the living animal there is no discernible space between the two. I know that I have heard reference to this space on some TV shows also, but even celebrities saying it's there doesn't make it so. One of the things that may have helped perpetrate this myth is the spinal cord/vertebral bodies is much lower in the chest region than many people realize. I also suspect that during the split second that most archers are recovering from the recoil of the shot the deer frequently drops more than we think and what looks like a great hit is actually too high. I know it's happened to me.

Feel free to try to convince me with facts that threading this needle is an anatomical possibility. Saying "I know I hit it once" is not fact. That is anecdote and a far cry from fact.
 
"The Void"

Feel free to try to convince me with facts that threading this needle is an anatomical possibility. Saying "I know I hit it once" is not fact. That is anecdote and a far cry from fact.

All I can say is I wish I had taken pictures of the slug hole under the spine of a buck I shot in 1983 and had to trail 3+ miles before finishing him off. Maybe the slug (not being sharp) pushed tissue out of it's way.

Sorry for the anecdote. ;)
 
I think a lot of shots in the backstraps get classified into this category. The problem is the spinal cord is several inches below the backline. I think when a shot hits the vertebrae but above the cord, people mistakenly think they hit below the spine, but obviously above the lungs.
 
I think a lot of shots in the backstraps get classified into this category. The problem is the spinal cord is several inches below the backline. I think when a shot hits the vertebrae but above the cord, people mistakenly think they hit below the spine, but obviously above the lungs.

This gets my vote.
 
All I can say is I wish I had taken pictures of the slug hole under the spine of a buck I shot in 1983 and had to trail 3+ miles before finishing him off. Maybe the slug (not being sharp) pushed tissue out of it's way.

Sorry for the anecdote. ;)

I'll take your word for that one. I can believe that a slow moving, relatively non-expanding blunt projectile like a slug might not kill one very quick and maybe, just maybe produce a survivable wound. I will also bet that the slug did in fact hit the lungs, it just didn't lacerate any vessels big enough to kill it quickly. A slug also doesn't make a big enough in/out hole to let air in & collapse the lungs very quickly (Same problem with many muzzy bullets.) A target point (or a malfunctioning expandable) might get similar results. A sharp broadhead... no way. :)
 
This is true

I think a lot of shots in the backstraps get classified into this category. The problem is the spinal cord is several inches below the backline. I think when a shot hits the vertebrae but above the cord, people mistakenly think they hit below the spine, but obviously above the lungs.

Well said DGorman!:way:
 
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I also do not subscribe to the "void" line of thinking, although you can hit a deer in the side, above the shoulder and not strike vitals. It's just that this is actually above the lungs/spine, but below the very top of the deers back.

I think many then assume there is a "void" above the lungs and below the spine, but really you are above the lungs AND the spine in that case. Some might call that the "void", I call it muscle.
 
If your above the lungs then your above the spine. The void is a myth.
If you hit a deer with an arrow. Even, or behind the shoulder and the arrow goes below the spine you will have a very dead deer
 
I would agree with most comments but i still think there are certain things that can not be explained. I have watched a couple deer that have been arrowed and never recovered... I watched a lady shoot a buck a few years ago at 8 yards and i know for a fact that the arrow was below the spine and there was very little blood and we never recovered the deer. I have no idea what happened....
 
I believe they may have been hit that way, but they are not gonna live or die right away. It does not take long for a gonna be dead deer to get totally out of the area. Some shots, if not perfect are gonna take awhile to put them down. But, I have tracked alot of backstrap hit deer, almost all get away to hunt another day.
 
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I shot one in the backstraps a few years ago. Had blood from tip to tip on the arrow, but no dead deer. Definitely more room above the spine than what most people know about. Great thread.
 
I think I saw this picture posted here awhile ago? Anyways- no space. It's easy to see why someone would think so though. Look how far the spine dips down as you go forward towards the front shoulders.
 
I would agree with most comments but i still think there are certain things that can not be explained. I have watched a couple deer that have been arrowed and never recovered... I watched a lady shoot a buck a few years ago at 8 yards and i know for a fact that the arrow was below the spine and there was very little blood and we never recovered the deer. I have no idea what happened....

A high chest shot, especially one with a relatively small broadhead will not leave much blood initially as it takes a while for the chest to fill with blood and start to pour out. IMO: If the hit was below the spine, the deer died, whether it was recovered or not.
 
I think I saw this picture posted here awhile ago? Anyways- no space. It's easy to see why someone would think so though. Look how far the spine dips down as you go forward towards the front shoulders.

Great pic - I agree no space, and yes I have heard it a lot and for a time back in the day even thought there was one.
 
Great pic. FWIW, I shot a deer from 12 yards years ago and my shot hit him about 6 inches up and back from where the hole in that pic is, clearly 100% lungs. Ton of blood then stopped after 50 yards. Came back in the morning and jumped the buck from his bloody bed some 17 hours later. Saw him again 1 month after that. Could never figure out what happened. Maybe he was exhaling at the shot and I somehow missed one or both lungs? I will never know.
 


Just curious what is in the space where I circled? It looks like that would miss the lungs. Really depending on the stance of his front legs it doesn't look like that far back of a shot.
 
Once again; just discussing, not trying to start an argument. You say "clearly 100% lungs" But the scenario says "clearly muscle, not lungs" in that it bled lots early, then stopped and he was alive the next day. Sorry, not a lung hit with a broadhead. Anywhere in that picture that shows ribs outlines the pleural space (where the lungs are) in the living animal. If you look at that picture and go up just a bit further maybe as little as 8 or 9 inches up from that hole, you could easily be above the spinal cord. You are correct though, we'll never know. I do know what scenario is the most plausible though.
 


Just curious what is in the space where I circled? It looks like that would miss the lungs. Really depending on the stance of his front legs it doesn't look like that far back of a shot.

Depending upon shot angle and so forth, I think you may only catch one lung that far back OR even no lungs, that might be a liver shot or stomach shot. I think a shot right there kills that deer, but it may be quite awhile after he was hit.

Also, I want to thank everyone for a courteous discussion, even where there might be some difference of opinion. I think it speaks well of IW members for threads like this not to devolve into arguments and such.
 
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