Timber Stand Improvement?

[cornfedkiller]

What can you guys tell me about Timber Stand Improvement and how it affects deer habitat/numbers/hunting?

My landlord is thinking he wants to do a TSI, but is interested in improving the habitat and hunting, not necessarily for lumber production or timber value. The property is 75 acres - 40 acres of CRP and a couple food plots, and 35 acres of timber. In most places, the timber is very open and there isn't much cover at all. He wants more wildlife on the farm, but also wants to help my hunting and not hinder it in any way, so we've been chatting back and fourth about what he should do..

He knows there is cost sharing available, but I assume you still have to pay some out of pocket as the gov't won't cover it all.

Lately I've been wondering if rather than having the DNR Forestry guy come out and mark trees and then hire someone to come and cut all the trees and my landlord ends up paying $X/acre out of pocket and all that, if the goal is strictly habitat improvement, would it be better/easier to just go out in the timber and drop a couple trees here and there? 1-2 per acre? (more/less?)

Are there certain do's and dont's to make sure we do? Certain trees that you absolutely do not want to cut down? Leave the logs lay or cut them up as long as we leave the tops? Hinge cut as much as possible?

Give me any info you can..I'm all ears!

 

[Hardwood11]

I think it makes a huge difference. I'm not an expert on it, but Skip is, hopefully he can help you. He's done TSI on a lot acres!

 

[arm]

Have the district forester come out for sure. he will help identify trees and help with your goal. he will write a plan for you and even mark trees. this cost nothing. then, you have a choice to hire it done where the cost share comes in. or, you can do it yourself and be reimbursed for costs. both are around 75% cost share or reimbursement for your expenses and labor. no doubt a good idea for wildlife (mast production and cover) and for timber value. it's important to get with someone knowledgeable first so that you don't make mistakes that can take 30 years to repair...that's where the district forester is your friend and is free!

 

[Keef]

In Missouri I had the state forester come out to the farm. They did a study of the place and divided the 160 acre farm into 7 sections and listed the priority we should use in doing the TSI. I chose 2 pieces totaling 39 acres. They gave me a price they would pay for doing it. I contracted with an outfit to do the work for about what they gave me so I wasn't out any money. The crew of 4 people got it done in 4 days. It was a smart move, the vegetation has increased substantially and the deer love it.

I doubt I will do any more I think we have enough.

I wouldn't think of doing it myself, it would have taken forever. The only bad thing is the area is tough to walk through especially when the vegetation is green. it's a jungle.

 

[Sligh1]

https://www.iowawhitetail.com/forum/threads/timber-stand-improvment.27226/
Read above link to start. Guys above have some great insight.
I'll reply later with any info I can but.... It absolutely will: hold more deer. Hold more mature bucks (more bedding & territory for them to claim & gives them more selections to call their own turf). It will create TONS of extra browse for deer to feed on. Timber value is enhanced exponentially - it's incredible if you dig into it.
Bottom line, if I had ONE thing I could do to a farm or ONE TOOL ...... CHAINSAW with a lot of knowledge behind it. Get a pro out there who knows your goals and species, etc. Get with forester, agree on above. Absolutely top thing to do to a farm.

 

[Hardwood11]

Two guys (normal timber) how long does it take for TSI per acre?

Medium aggressive cutting.

 

[arm]

Two guys (normal timber) how long does it take for TSI per acre?

Medium aggressive cutting.

Depends if youre just back cutting everything to the ground and looking to get killed or taking the time to plan every large tree that needs felled lol

 

[IowaBowHunter1983]

Two guys (normal timber) how long does it take for TSI per acre?

Medium aggressive cutting.

...... 1 acre/hour be my guess give or take A LOT. I say that because I just did about 1/2 acre in an hour by myself. Lots more to do before spring... maybe i'll keep track.

 

[Daver]

...... 1 acre/hour be my guess give or take A LOT. I say that because I just did about 1/2 acre in an hour by myself. Lots more to do before spring... maybe i'll keep track.

I agree with the "give or take A LOT". I would have said more like 1/4 to 1/3 acre per hour...but that is being careful and trying to preserve as many "live" hinges as possible.

 

[Sligh1]

So much depends on type of timber... Freeing up walnuts on bottoms are pretty easy IMO. Side hills with thick oak stands & varieties of oaks & oak thinning in some cases, can be 2-3 times the work. Lots of weed trees add a lot too. Depends on your marking procedures as well. NOW, I don't have to mark but I usually still do so I stay focused. If I'm gonna have help cutting, I clearly band crop trees and mark several X's on kill trees (both sides so visible).
Maniac pace after marking, I pry can do 1-3 acres an hour BUT it sure wasn't like that when I was younger, it took longer then cause I didn't know as much. Doing this pace is not smart overall though and I catch myself sometimes as you are more likely to make a mistake & mistakes can be DEADLY. It took years of learning how to cut safe, not get saws caught in trees (pinched), how to pack gas & oil in my backpack, having extra tools & saws, etc. I'm so much faster now just cause I've done so much & overall I'm safe if I keep my head in the game & quit when I should I pay attention like I should. & I have a beefed up 261MQ that's a frigin tree eating machine, probably would not have been a safe saw for when I started. If I go "too fast" my work is still great BUT it gets dangerous cause you can easily forget about a leaning tree or catch a branch or whatever. It's pretty dangerous if you don't know what you're doing & especially if you're tipping big trees (I don't recommend as it's dangerous and every year I keep telling myself I'm not gonna keep tipping big trees- it's stupid). Long term, if you don't wear a helmet, you're gonna catch a big dead branch in the head or a small tree, who knows. Chaps are a must as well. Starting out, geesh, just takes a lot of learning. Go slow. I'd GUESS, newbie.... couple hours for an acre. So dependent on the type of timber though. Also - "WHAT TO CUT" - the BRAINS of the project - that takes a lot of time, a lot of knowledge/education and also analyzing the trees in front of you making some tough choices on occasion. Then learning how to use a saw right which has so many elements to it, just all takes a long time to dial in. PATIENT, be safe, bring a partner, have back up stuff (like, dead serious, just for myself I bring 3, even 4 saws out - just don't wanna have to stop for day for any reason & nice to swap around saws), all your safety gear and have a forestry expert there or there previously to mark. My goal this year is to slow up and make sure I stop when my body is telling me I'm spent but my mind wants to keep going. This old man is slowing way down!! BE SAFE & have educated folks out there to make sure you're making smart cuts & choices that will have 100 year ramifications.

 

[IowaBowHunter1983]

I tell ya one thing.... cutting in the MUD sucks and slows things down.

Lots of good advice in multiple threads on this forum.

Saws.... could go on long time about this. Spend the money and get a good one. (you aint buying a good one at Home Depot). The difference between good equipment and junk is exponential. Went to a Husquavarna 365 years ago as my main saw when I had an outdoor wood boiler. Thing rips...when super sharp... hang on. Really a better firewood saw than carrying around all day because it does get heavy. The newer professional saws run carb off a computer and adjust for fuel octane, temp, altitude, etc. They are lighter.... MAJOR plus in TSI work IMO. Will upgrade soon. Use premium fuel only. Buy good chains. Helmet yes. Stay AWAY from each other. No joke.... about 10 years ago someone dropped a tree on my head. Never again will I work within fall distance of anyone.

 

[Daver]

One other thing I happened to remember...kind of a voice of experience thing you might say ...don't park your truck right on the edge of the timber and then walk in, say, only 20-30 feet or so, into the timber and start cutting! Because when you cut down, say a 40 or 50 foot tree...who is doing the math with me here? ...and it falls towards the field...the field where your truck is parked...well that could cause a problem...just saying.

 

[goatman]

Probably left out but never ever cut a big tree without a notch. Barber chairing as they call it will kill you. Also wouldn't recommend hinge cutting bigger trees. Unless you have done many just double ring big trees and walk away. Sligh has learned the best advice to give. When you tire quit and come back another day. This is no race as how much one can get done. Enjoy your time in the woods. Deer season is over. Long time till next season. Learn to identify trees. dbltree also taught me to look at the tree top and judge the value of that tree when deciding which tree should go. I haven't had to worry about cutting the wrong tree as my timbers have been harvested heavy before I ever got them. I TSI on my own. Putting bedding areas wear I want them. I try to do 1 to 2 acres on hilltops for bedding. And stay out of them all year.

 

[Daver]

Probably left out but never ever cut a big tree without a notch. Barber chairing as they call it will kill you. Also wouldn't recommend hinge cutting bigger trees. ...

That is great advice and could literally save your life. ^^ I will not hinge anything bigger than about 4"-5" in diameter. If I want to drop a bigger tree than that I just fell it, with a proper notch and so forth. A big tree that "barber chairs" could squash you like a bug.

 

[Sligh1]

Great stuff guys. Will have to update dbltree tsi thread with tips. Safety is a big one!!!! When I have help cutting, I only let them cut stuff like 3-5" and anything "big" I double girdle. I should be using the same rules myself and each year I cut a little less and I double girdle more trees than I did in my "stupid years" which - I admit I pry still hinge and cut bigger than I should. Will be more disciplined this year.
Few more tips....
Goatman nailed one. Look up when marking. Look at crown formations, quality of trees, crowding, etc. I forget how each night after marking my neck is stiff from assessing canopies. Once I see my species- my head then goes right up to analyze quality & crowding. A tree that looks good at eye level may be crap as u follow it up. Or start leaning way out after 15' up. Whatever. I could do tsi in one pass. I'm far more effective if I spend the time marking only. Then, when I go back, I actually reassess my own markings and often change my mind on certain things. Oak crowding or quality tree crowding is perhaps the most difficult thing to make decisions on and needing to assesss all variables from quality, age, defects, diversity by thinning certain trees so not a monoculture, split trunks, 2 great trees - leave as "one" or take one out, etc.

Tip.... learn to kill vines on walnut trees (do it!!!!) and properly prune good walnuts & takes very little time.


If u hinge - hickories hinge well for example. On flip side- ash hinges horribly and usually snaps and can be dangerous.

Rule of thumb in Iowa..... a guy can get as aggressive as u wished with basically no or little harm if u went to extreme and simply cut every: locust (black is invasive) of any type, elm (Dutch elm get em and little wildlife or timber value), bitternut hickory, thick stands of buckeye, I personally don't mind pummeling ash trees especially if mixed in walnut bottoms & maybe a few others. I will almost eradicate, if possible - invasive stands of iron wood, elm, locust, etc. then Lower level if I wanna get fussy and mess with prickly ash later & multiflower rose, etc - ya, can deal with it if I want to. Not as big of deal to me as other folks though. Usually they get canopied out later anyways or disease.

My personal tree preferences - are walnut and white oak. Veneer are babied like crazy. My next tier is: swamp oak, red, burr. cherry trees on occasion (don't usually make it to maturity by me). I'll free up a random shingle oak if I'm in a rare setting where it's not full of em (very rare). Sure don't dislike them like some people but I choose other oaks over them for sure. Not huge on black oak but if nothing else but junk- I'll free em. I do free or thin silver maple if needed or no walnuts there.

Keep plenty blades, extra bars, saws and chain tools handy. Extra nuts for saw cover of they detach. I pack in bottles of Powerade or water and granola bars too so I don't get worn down. Backpack with all that plus cans of gas & oil is so nice. Saw size will be preference. I don't mind a bit heavier & bigger gas tank is nice. I think my small saw is an 241 cq or mq or whatever those last letters are. Light but power. If do stihl saws.... if go for "consumer models" - do the 251 over the 250. 251 made so many improvements over my old 250's it's nuts. So much better.

That's my rambling tips for the day. To put in context- I'll take a buddy out for a whole day and we'll go over stuff and the next day there's still 10 new scenarios and things to pick up. Just takes time and why u start with forester and go slow.

 

[Sligh1]

A few snaps from the gloomy afternoon today. Doesn't show a lot. If u look close can catch a few things.... one has a nice walnut freed up and a pocket of hinge bedding in back. Another is bedding or hinge area near field edge. The amount of deer sign in there was disgusting. I cut these last February. This part of my timber is lower quality upland timber. The ridge over Starts a whole new world of white oak and walnuts. Still opportunities in mediocre timber like this though.

 

[hillrunner]

Spent a few hours in the timber yesterday. I sure wish I would have taken heed of the advice to take a spare saw or at least bar along.......

 

[arm]

Regarding the question on how long it can take to do x area. I haven't figured out how to strategically cut an area yet for better funneling so I thought I'd spend SOME time at least getting out some hedge. That stuff sucks when most of them have multiple trunks that are close if not touching. Ended up spending over 5 hours on not much more than a dozen of them.

To the post above, yeah, I always have two saws along. Lol

 

[goatman]

I haven't figured out how to strategically cut an area yet for better funneling so I thought I'd spend SOME time at least getting out some hedge. That stuff sucks when most of them have multiple trunks that are close if not touching. Ended up spending over 5 hours on not much more than a dozen of them.

Yep but if you didn't spray the stumps the deer will hammer the regrowth.

 

[arm]

Yep but if you didn't spray the stumps the deer will hammer the regrowth.

Ya know, I hear a lot of guys always using chemical on them but I am going to let them go. What was downed will be there forever for more cover and it will just created more browse and cover after regrowth like you say. Then repeat after how many years. Idk though