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Timber Stand Improvment

Black Locust

While walking timber on some new property I purchased my forester commented on the black locust trees and mentioned that even when killing the trees with herbicide, they will still send up hundreds of new sprouts. Recently I can upon some black locusts that had been girdled and treated and just exactly as my forester mentioned....there were hundreds of young locust trees as a result...

bl1.jpg


all of the treated trees were stone cold dead

bl3.jpg


but in addition to the new sprouts pictured there were dozens more as far as 50 yards away where none had before existed.

bl2.jpg


if you kill black locusts, be prepared to basal bark spray the resulting sprouts with diesel fuel and Garlon/Remedy/Relegate/Crossbow and other such herbicides as a follow up.... ;)
 
dbltree
What time of year were these treated?What was the treatment? I would think in Aug. or Sept. when sap is going down and storing energy you would smoke them. We can spray right-of-ways with Tordon K on the lower leaves and locust will suck it to the top with no suckers. All locust hates Tordon of any kind.
 
dbltree
What time of year were these treated?What was the treatment? I would think in Aug. or Sept. when sap is going down and storing energy you would smoke them. We can spray right-of-ways with Tordon K on the lower leaves and locust will suck it to the top with no suckers. All locust hates Tordon of any kind.

Don't know the answers to that cause I was not involved, not saying they can't be killed...just sayin'....;)

Paul-what is your opinion on BL as cover, obviously not ideal but more a negative than positive?

The ones I have are going to be hinged or are least some of them, partially because I want to see how they react? BL provide little cover and no mast so personally I have no use for them but others may disagree.

I'll be trying some different things on mine so...stay tuned...:way:
 
The ones I have are going to be hinged or are least some of them, partially because I want to see how they react? BL provide little cover and no mast so personally I have no use for them but others may disagree.

I'll be trying some different things on mine so...stay tuned...:way:

They are readily browsed on my place...much better than honey locust.

Here is a seedling that popped up where I sprayed to kill some fesuce...deer have been hard on this one. :D

Trees6.jpg
 
Paul-what is your opinion on BL as cover, obviously not ideal but more a negative than positive?



I have a 3 or so acre spot that is nearly 100% black locust and it is basically a wasteland.

The stand is probably 15-20 years old. The trees are all tall and straight and have shaded everything else out.

I've tried tordon with poor results. I'm thinking bulldozer next.

On my place it is just about the worst habitat... no bedding cover, no browse.
 
Contact the IDNR ask for a tree id book. I just got one on Monday. Its a spiral ring notebook with about 60 different trees with photos of bark and leaves. Don't know the cost since I got it as part of a class.
 
Back in june I wrote:

Paul, Thanks for all the time and effort you put in for us novices. I've had my place for twenty years and and done very little to make it better. Hunting has always been good. I've had to work and having a 100 miles separating me amd the farm makes it difficult and fuel expensive to spend time there without productive reason. Fortunately I'm going to be able to retire in the next year. I thank the Lord for the many blessings he has placed on me. I was blessed with a wonderful wife and great children who have made my passing through the world all that a man could hope for.I hope to be able to spend more time in the country improving the farm. I also have a son in law who is as enthusiastic about making things better as I am.

My guess is my ground might have been logged 30-35 years ago. I know I got a good crop of saleable timber, to I don't want to rape and pillage the ground in the process. I'm working with our DNR private lands biologist on a recommendation for a consulting professional forrester.
My goal is for a payday, but not at the expense of quality hunting habitat. I guess I should say that trophy antlers are really not on my radar. I really prefer deer meat to anything ,with the exception of an occasional pork steak or T bone. That said, I'm very happy to take 6 or 7, fat ,120 pound does. I've held back on the hinge cutting until after I see what I've got left after logging. And I'd like to log again in about 10 years. I'm guessing I could use the left over tops in the same way as hinge cutting to create bedding areas. I would want my logger to cooperate with me towards that end.

Do you have any suggestions regarding the pitfalls.

Mike
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Last edited by mshm99; 06-03-2012 at 05:01 PM. Reason: spelling error


Here's an up date. I got a number of consulting forresters info and initiated contact. I stated my goals and he replied:

Thank you for contacting me with your interest in enrolling your property into the forest management program. I work personally with landowners in every aspect of management of their timber as I am a small forestry business that only has help to do the timber stand improvement and otherwise I work alone. This means I walk the property with you to take data for you forest plan while informing you of the work that will need to be done in the plan and showing you specific trees and shrubs that should be removed during timber stand improvement and those that can be removed during a harvest. The plan is written according to state and federal requirements and copies are forwarded to the appropriate parties for funding as well as tax relief.
(Around 80% of all properties enrolled in the forest management program have work that needs to be done over a period of 1-4 years before any timber can be harvested.)
Cost for a forest plan is based on acreage, $10 per acre with a minimum of $400.
Yours would be $400 and his would be $600.

The Timber Stand Improvement (TSI or FSI) work that is required includes crop tree release, thinning and invasive removal mostly. I also do all of this work and work closely with the county or state funding to get it done without the landowner having to pay much out of pocket. There is a period of at least 2 years that the timber needs to stand idle after the TSI has been done to allow more acorns and nuts to be produced from the crop trees and with the newly available light to the forest floor, more preferred natural regeneration occurring.
After the 2 year period the timber can be marked for a harvest.
It will most likely be at least 4-5 years from writing the plan before your timber can be harvested.

In this process I mark all saleable trees and talley the volume per species, providing the landowner with an estimate of what the trees are worth. Next invitations are sent out to loggers and a bid opening is set up where a bidder/logger will be selected by the landowner and the forester. At this time there will be a year contract signed with any time constraints that the landowner wants to apply for timing (not there during hunting seasons), also encouraging the loggers to use best management practices such as not entering the site during periods of excessive moisture, keeping the amount of skidder trails low and keeping tree tops out of fields, roadways and waterways. After a harvest I do a follow up review on the harvested sites.

I am a Forester by profession but an avid hunter, fisherman and outdoorsman at heart so everything I do and recommend in the forest management scheme is in the best interest of wildlife as well. If the landowners interests are the same.
-Crop tree release allows more mast for wildlife to eat.
-Thinning opens up the canopy and allows light to the floor to encourage more groundcover growth for browse.
-Trees or tree tops left from TSI or Harvest are great bedding areas and increase holding power on your property.

If you are interested in hiring me as your forester I would gladly accept the position. I can provide references.

Thank you,

Well there it is.I'm ok with letting the boys do their thing. From what I gather releasing the marketable timber will net a better payday and any money spent now is deductable from the taxable profit later.

Mike


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Back in june I wrote:

Paul, Thanks for all the time and effort you put in for us novices. I've had my place for twenty years and and done very little to make it better. Hunting has always been good. I've had to work and having a 100 miles separating me amd the farm makes it difficult and fuel expensive to spend time there without productive reason. Fortunately I'm going to be able to retire in the next year. I thank the Lord for the many blessings he has placed on me. I was blessed with a wonderful wife and great children who have made my passing through the world all that a man could hope for.I hope to be able to spend more time in the country improving the farm. I also have a son in law who is as enthusiastic about making things better as I am.

My guess is my ground might have been logged 30-35 years ago. I know I got a good crop of saleable timber, to I don't want to rape and pillage the ground in the process. I'm working with our DNR private lands biologist on a recommendation for a consulting professional forrester.
My goal is for a payday, but not at the expense of quality hunting habitat. I guess I should say that trophy antlers are really not on my radar. I really prefer deer meat to anything ,with the exception of an occasional pork steak or T bone. That said, I'm very happy to take 6 or 7, fat ,120 pound does. I've held back on the hinge cutting until after I see what I've got left after logging. And I'd like to log again in about 10 years. I'm guessing I could use the left over tops in the same way as hinge cutting to create bedding areas. I would want my logger to cooperate with me towards that end.

Do you have any suggestions regarding the pitfalls.

Mike
Captureh_crop.png




<!-- / message --><!-- edit note --><HR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #333333; COLOR: #333333" SIZE=1>
Last edited by mshm99; 06-03-2012 at 05:01 PM. Reason: spelling error


Here's an up date. I got a number of consulting forresters info and initiated contact. I stated my goals and he replied:

Thank you for contacting me with your interest in enrolling your property into the forest management program. I work personally with landowners in every aspect of management of their timber as I am a small forestry business that only has help to do the timber stand improvement and otherwise I work alone. This means I walk the property with you to take data for you forest plan while informing you of the work that will need to be done in the plan and showing you specific trees and shrubs that should be removed during timber stand improvement and those that can be removed during a harvest. The plan is written according to state and federal requirements and copies are forwarded to the appropriate parties for funding as well as tax relief.
(Around 80% of all properties enrolled in the forest management program have work that needs to be done over a period of 1-4 years before any timber can be harvested.)
Cost for a forest plan is based on acreage, $10 per acre with a minimum of $400.
Yours would be $400 and his would be $600.

The Timber Stand Improvement (TSI or FSI) work that is required includes crop tree release, thinning and invasive removal mostly. I also do all of this work and work closely with the county or state funding to get it done without the landowner having to pay much out of pocket. There is a period of at least 2 years that the timber needs to stand idle after the TSI has been done to allow more acorns and nuts to be produced from the crop trees and with the newly available light to the forest floor, more preferred natural regeneration occurring.
After the 2 year period the timber can be marked for a harvest.
It will most likely be at least 4-5 years from writing the plan before your timber can be harvested.

In this process I mark all saleable trees and talley the volume per species, providing the landowner with an estimate of what the trees are worth. Next invitations are sent out to loggers and a bid opening is set up where a bidder/logger will be selected by the landowner and the forester. At this time there will be a year contract signed with any time constraints that the landowner wants to apply for timing (not there during hunting seasons), also encouraging the loggers to use best management practices such as not entering the site during periods of excessive moisture, keeping the amount of skidder trails low and keeping tree tops out of fields, roadways and waterways. After a harvest I do a follow up review on the harvested sites.

I am a Forester by profession but an avid hunter, fisherman and outdoorsman at heart so everything I do and recommend in the forest management scheme is in the best interest of wildlife as well. If the landowners interests are the same.
-Crop tree release allows more mast for wildlife to eat.
-Thinning opens up the canopy and allows light to the floor to encourage more groundcover growth for browse.
-Trees or tree tops left from TSI or Harvest are great bedding areas and increase holding power on your property.

If you are interested in hiring me as your forester I would gladly accept the position. I can provide references.

Thank you,

Well there it is.I'm ok with letting the boys do their thing. From what I gather releasing the marketable timber will net a better payday and any money spent now is deductable from the taxable profit later.

Mike


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Timber Management

It's that time of year, at least for me as I make the lion's share of my living working in the timber during the winter months. Timber is usually one of our greatest yet most oft over looked resources both for whitetails and from an investment perspective that adds to the value of our property. Many landowners concentrate completely on planted food sources and totally overlook their timber resources assuming that because they have trees...that's good enough but nothing could be farther from the truth.

Timbered areas vary vastly by species, quality and quantity often within a one mile radius so imagine the difference across our nation!! Mine may be nothing like yours and yours not even remotely like a landowner in Maine, Texas or Wisconsin so please be cautious about taking advice from well intentioned landowners who do not have the training nor experience to advise others. It is up to you as a landowner to learn as much as you can about your timber, first by getting a state forester involved (or hiring a private one) to walk your timber with you. Their goals will often be vastly different then yours but there is still much to be learned from their expertise including if you have any marketable timber.

There are many options for managing timber resources but generally there are three that we utilize most in working with hardwood timber. Harvest, crop tree release and weed tree removal....

Harvest

If we have marketable timber and the market is right, doing so will immediately open up canopy allowing for greatly increased understory (brushy, shrubby growth that provides bedding and browse) as well as providing some financial rewards. Almost all timber has some value even if only for pallet wood or fire wood so the first step is determining what if any harvest size timber we have on our property. Like a stockbroker helps us with financial investing a forester can help us in regards to doing a timber harvest including recommending reputable timber buyers/loggers.

Weed Tree Removal

Where are few if any crop trees (in our area oaks and walnuts) we often do a weed tree removal where virtually every tree is killed or felled in some cases using hinging techniques. If no crop trees are present we may go in and hand plant seedlings to get desirable species in any area where there were none previously.

Don Higgins recently had a great article in Quality Whitetails called "The Alternative to Hinging" in which he did what we call a weed tree removal and he followed up with a tree planting. The resulting re-growth is usually phenomenal and the areas turn into a fantastic bedding area within 2-3 years. I have done some variation to what Don did on several projects including some of my own with outstanding results but again, this is not a viable option in every timber.

If you find that you have almost no oaks or walnuts and would like to change that I would encourage you to consider some variation of a WTR and Don's article could give you some things to think about.

Crop Tree Release

In most of southern Iowa and northern Missouri where we have an oak/hickory hardwood species scenario a crop tree release is the customary way to both improve our timber and at the same time encourage some understory growth. I typically do 300-400 acres of this type of work each winter which means I have not only seen a lot of timber but a lot of very different types and species of timber, this in turn gives me a unique perspective to both timber and whitetail management that the average landowner is not privy too.

The most common habitat management problem I encounter when I tour a landowners farm is a wide open timber and that type of timber holds very few deer, not only that but it provides virtually nothing in the way of browse. Crowded timber has such a dense canopy that trees compete for light and growth is slowed and understory is non-existent...much like this timber where I have recently start a CTR

t12.jpg


Here is nothing appealing to whitetails in this type of environment yet unlike Don's situation there are plenty of very valuable crop trees which when released will not only grow faster and yield up to 7X's more mast but also allow for new understory growth that whitetails love!

In this case, cost share is involved and a forest stewardship plan written that must be followed and that requires marking the crop trees and doing an inventory by size.

t1-1.jpg


2012-12-08_11-51-11_982.jpg


Generally we shoot for a 4 sided release meaning competing trees on all four sides are killed (competing means competing canopy not every tree near the crop tree. In many cases however there may be 2-3 crop trees together that as a group can be released by killing weed trees (trees with little or no value depending on the market etc.) such as ash, hickory, elm etc.

In this pic there is a black walnut, a white oak and a red oak....none of which were killed because I released the entire group by killing surrounding competition

t5.jpg


As mentioned the the type, quality and quantity of crop trees will vary widely so these are only general thoughts based on what I encounter in my area but usually walnut and white oak would be considered high value species with red oak next in line. Every walnut however will not be a valuable crop tree...those grown in rich bottomlands are often very valuable while those grown on poor upland soils...not so much. Trees can also be damaged by a multitude of things and in this case I chose the red oak in the foreground over the severely damaged black walnut in the background

t2-1.jpg


Here is an example of a very low value white oak....that doesn't mean it has to be killed only that it could be if in turn it would release better quality trees.

t6.jpg


Example of a severely deformed black walnut that will likely have little if any value

t9.jpg


Choosing crop trees often requires a great deal of thought because while they may look the same at ground level...

t8.jpg


It is the canopy that often is the deciding factor on which to kill or choose as a crop tree. Full crowned trees versus those with deformed partial crowns are key factors in choosing which to release

t7.jpg


A single white oak surrounded by hickory and elm is a no brainer but a group of "peas in a pod" oaks is quite another and situations like this are not for the novice. If you have valuable crop trees but prefer to do your own release you may want to at least hire the marking done. Most landowners have neither the time nor training for crop tree release in which case your forester may recommend a competent contractor to do the work which in our area typically runs $160 an acre a portion of which may be recouped via cost share.

A group of white oaks such as these will some day be very valuable but they will reach that stage much sooner if the poorest tree/trees in the group are...culled...

t10.jpg


Regardless of how many acres of timber I work on, I always encounter something new...what at first appears to be a white oak...

t3.jpg


is in fact a Chinkapin oak....somewhat rare in my neck of the woods....

t11.jpg


In most cases the large weed trees are killed by double girdling while small trees may be felled in which case I usually hinge them...

t13.jpg


Timber management then allows us to use several options or combinations thereof to vastly improve out timber resources while at the same time make significant habitat improvements that allow us to hold more whitetails then previously was possible.

We may clear cut or select cut our timber at harvest time, we may need to do a radical tree removal and start over or just thin some crop trees such as when we encounter a pure stand of oaks. Knowing this be cautious of from whom you take advice but rather use your own due diligence to research your options, listen to your forester and then based on your personal goals..decide what is best for you.

Hinging some weed trees is an option for both weed tree and crop tree release but that option is not for everyone nor suitable in every timber, where possible however...putting some lumber on the ground can make over night changes toward our goals of increasing bedding and browse and a topic for another discussion.... ;)
 
I've got to say these professional foresters are a pretty independent lot. The guy I was communicating with decided to accept a position in an unrelated field and neglected to inform me that we would not be having our initial consultation.

I wish him well.

I shifted to plan "B" . The next guy was pretty unresponsive, and told me he had enough work. ( I guess our economy is getting better). The next guy told me he was near retirement and was non committal .He warmed up a bit when he found out the job would be near his home. To his credit , he informed me of something I was ignorant about, and nobody else had bothered to point out to me.

I need a management plan. To get financial assistance with the plan ,I needed to file an application with the " Natural Resources Conservation Service". He gave me the telephone number and the guy I wanted to talk to. I wish I would have known this six months ago. We talked and the guy said funding was iffy, but I should apply anyway.


So that's where I stand. I hope I'm giving every other interested person a road map.

Mike
 
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In the killing of the weed trees what are you guys using other than Tordon,

or is this the best one out there for the money? Also where is the cheapest place to

find what you are using? Thanks guys.
 
Anybody have luck with getting ahold of their district forrester? I've tried calling the forester out of Creston (responsible for my county) 3 separate times leaving detailed voicemails. I still have never received any call back. Are they out of funding for TSI or any other reason they would ignore this? I try calling the NRCS or FSA and they say call the district forrester. I'd really like to do TSI on my property but cannot get started. Any advice would be great! Maybe I'm not doing something right?...
 
In the killing of the weed trees what are you guys using other than Tordon,

or is this the best one out there for the money? Also where is the cheapest place to

find what you are using? Thanks guys.

I haven't tried it yet but alot are using a 20 to 50% mix of roundup on the stumps. Some even use straight out of the jug.
 
A mixture of crossbow and diesel works good, it works good for killing trees and unwanted shrubs, I think half and half is about right
 
Anybody have luck with getting ahold of their district forrester? I've tried calling the forester out of Creston (responsible for my county) 3 separate times leaving detailed voicemails. I still have never received any call back. Are they out of funding for TSI or any other reason they would ignore this? I try calling the NRCS or FSA and they say call the district forrester. I'd really like to do TSI on my property but cannot get started. Any advice would be great! Maybe I'm not doing something right?...

Don't feel like the lone ranger. Dealing with bureaucrats is never easy.:thrwrck:
I spoke to, private lands biologist, who sent me to state forestry biologist, who sent me to private consulting forester, who said get a plan from NRCS. I've been led to believe you need an official timber management plan from NRCS to start.

This is what I learned in 6 months. Hope I'm on the right track.
http://northeastiowarcd.org/forestry/

http://www.magicyellow.com/category/foresters_consulting/-state_ia.html


Mike
 
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