Buck Hollow Sporting Goods - click or touch to visit their website Midwest Habitat Company

Timber Stand Improvment

Originally Posted By: NovemberSunrise

Did you know that most black walnuts grown in upland situations will never become valuable verneer and that they are very poisonous to other plants nearby?


Dbltree - Can you explain how upland situations lead to less valuable black walnut trees?

Also, did you keep the black walnuts according to the plan or not? I have some on my property. It's very evident that not much else is growing near the largest black walnut trees anymore due to the toxicity.
Click to expand...



Black walnut is most vaulable if it is verneer quality and those trees by and large grow in river bottom type areas where they are not able to "branch" out.

In otherwords they grow straight and tall with no limbs except near the top.

Trees that grow in open areas tend to branch out as in the pic I posted which means the trees may be vaulable for lumber only.

Urban Walnut Trees



Reports of black walnut trees being sold for hundreds or even thousands of dollars often cause homeowners to dream of huge profits from selling their backyard walnut trees.

Unfortunately, while good quality walnut trees are often quite valuable, walnut trees grown in an urban setting usually are not. Only an exceptionally large, high-quality, urban-grown walnut or group of walnut trees would interest a timber or veneer buyer
Click to expand...



Is my black walnut tree worth anything?

Value of Walnut Sawlogs

FACTORS AFFECTING THE QUALITY OF WALNUT LUMBER AND VENEER

Selling Walnut Timber



Markets change of course and I am not advocating killing BW trees by any means but the most I was offered for a huge BW that had only one 8 ft stick in it was...80 bucks!

The same buyer told me that they paid $30,000 for a handful of extremely tall, large and perfect (no limbs, no blemishes) black walnuts in a river bottom situation.

Part of doing TSI is also pruning and killing vines which can help improve your BW crop tree and BW seedlings can be planted with trainers (conifers) to force it to grow up, not out.

Eventually I'll go back and cover more about "objectives" in our plan. Each landowner will have a slightly different objective especially if wildlife takes priority over timber value.

For me, oaks will have a higher value then black walnuts and if two were growing side by side I'd be more inclined to kill the BW but that's me and my choice and not the recommended practice.
 
Last edited:
Eventually I'll go back and cover more about "objectives" in our plan. Each landowner will have a slightly different objective especially if wildlife takes priority over timber value.

For me, oaks will have a higher value then black walnuts and if two were growing side by side I'd be more inclined to kill the BW but that's me and my choice and not the recommended practice.
Click to expand...



Thanks for your reply. I was just curious as to whether you cut them since I am debating cutting all of my smaller BWs in the near future in lieu of the oaks around them. My primary interest is wildlife also, but I'm trying to stay conscious of the economic potential down the road by not cutting all non-mast/greater-wildlife-oriented trees.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Good stuff Paul! I was wondering about this practice:

"Part of doing TSI is also pruning and killing vines which can help improve your BW crop tree and BW seedlings can be planted with trainers (conifers) to force it to grow up, not out."

I was wondering if cutting vines at ground level and applying TORDON is a safe practice? My thought is that the vine roots may inner-twine with the tree roots and the TORDON could harm the tree via the vine roots. Any truth to this? I have a ton of vines taking over some of my larger trees and would like to address the problem this spring.
 
Skully, I was contemplating Tordon as well.....

Wild grapes are extremely sensitive to 2,4D and that might be a safer alternative.

For poision ivy vines, how does a person safely cut them? I've got a couple that are HUGE climbing up an oak tree. Chainsaw seems like it would throw the sawdust all over you. Too big for a machette, would have to be a hatchet. Maybe a bow saw?
 
I know Tordon 22K translocates very easily. I killed an elm tree one year by spraying the MF rose bush that was at its base. Tordon RTU with some diesel is a good cut stump method in the winter. Don't know the ratio of RTU to diesel, but I would think just saturating the stump of the vine with the mix should be OK.

As far as cutting poison ivy or five finger ivy I just have at it with the machete. The vines are about as big around as my wrist, which isn't very big. I also try, very carefully, to pull the vines out of the tree. Nuthin looks worse than a dead vine hanging on the side of a tree.

Anybody know what the name of the vine is that has sharp needle like thorns at the base but none on the smaller vines? Big leaves, grows faster than grape vine and has more tendrils than grape vine too. Starts out as 4-5 shoots coming out of a clump. Grows straight up until it finds branches then it goes to town. That stuff is a booger. Site guidelines prohibit me from saying what I call it. I would like to know its real name. It is almost a cross between gooseberry and grape.

The ‘Bonker
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fishbonker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anybody know what the name of the vine is that has sharp needle like thorns at the base but none on the smaller vines? Big leaves, grows faster than grape vine and has more tendrils than grape vine too. Starts out as 4-5 shoots coming out of a clump. Grows straight up until it finds branches then it goes to town. That stuff is a booger. Site guidelines prohibit me from saying what I call it. I would like to know its real name. It is almost a cross between gooseberry and grape.

The ‘Bonker
</div></div>

I used this USDA search engine to give me a list of vines and then I typed in Roundleaf Greenbriar into a google image search and think that is what you are talking about. It looks a lot like a similar plant I have seen (and fought).
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was wondering if cutting vines at ground level and applying TORDON is a safe practice? My thought is that the vine roots may inner-twine with the tree roots and the TORDON could harm the tree via the vine roots. Any truth to this? </div></div>

That's a great question!

I have used a different herbicide that hasn't caused any ill effects but the name espaces me at the moment. I'l have to dig up the container and read the label.

In the mean time I'll check with Ray Lehn (my district forester) and see what he reccommends that will be safe. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
So I finally read the whole thread. How I missed the first page is beyond me. Very good stuff.

On the black walnut topic, my son owns a home in Anamosa that has several large walnuts on the perimeter. His neighbor is pestering him to cut them down. The neighbor is telling my son he will make tons of money from them. I told my son that they provide a lot of shade in the summer and may add to the property value. I think the neighbor wants them gone because they are a messy tree with the walnuts and branches. SO thanks for all the links Paul. I sent them on to my son.

On the vine front, I saw the line about leaving the vines that you cut out of crop trees hanging in the trees. People with a lot more smarts than I have said leave ‘em hanging, but I don’t like the looks so I try to pull them down.

The vine I asked about looks to be a bristly green briar. OUCH The small highly packed needle like thorns at the base are the give away. This stuff is hard to kill.

The 'Bonker
 
"The vine I asked about looks to be a bristly green briar."

You almost need a friggin cutting torch to get through that stuff! I have some of it to Bonks. Its not fun to wander into in the dark that's for sure! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif
 
Here is what Ray Lehn (IDNR District Forester) had to say about spraying vines etc.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 14pt'>I would not worry about treating the vines. Most will be killed just by severing them. Used properly, treating vines with Tordon should not affect the tree. Tordon is best for locust, although Pathway is the same thing at a cheaper price. A mix of 50% Roundup and water is also very effective and probably cheaper (it will freeze in cold weather where Tordon/Pathway will not).</span>
</div></div>

I think Pathway is the herbicide I have been using on my vines now that he mentioned it. I use a small household bottle sprayer and just squirt the end of the cut vine.

Pathway Herbicide label

Tordon RTU label

Tordon 22K label
 
Just the info I was looking for Paul, thanks! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif The 50% Roundup method puzzles me though. I thought Roundup was only effective when sprayed and absorbed through the foliage. I'll give it a try. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skully</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just the info I was looking for Paul, thanks! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif The 50% Roundup method puzzles me though. I thought Roundup was only effective when sprayed and absorbed through the foliage. I'll give it a try. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif </div></div>

First off, 50% is pretty "thick" and gly kills by being absorbed by the plant into it's root system. So my initial thoughts are the same as yours but stop and think about it...the fresh cut stem is like a "straw" and will absorb the gly right into it's root system.

Hey...worth giving it a try, inexpensive and safe! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
50% round up method work in the winter or only when the vine is actively growing? I like to work my vines in the winter. I can still catch poison ivy but there is much less sap/oil in the vine in the winter.

Bristley green briar is indeed nasty. If you cut it off at the ground you can't grab it to pull it out because of the needles so I grab up higher and then the vine breaks. I don't remember it being around until 4-5 years ago.

The 'Bonker
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fishbonker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">50% round up method work in the winter or only when the vine is actively growing? I like to work my vines in the winter. I can still catch poison ivy but there is much less sap/oil in the vine in the winter.

Bristley green briar is indeed nasty. If you cut it off at the ground you can't grab it to pull it out because of the needles so I grab up higher and then the vine breaks. I don't remember it being around until 4-5 years ago.

The 'Bonker </div></div>

I'm thinking if not severe cold that the root would still absorb it but I'm sure that's whay he mentioned:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A mix of 50% Roundup and water is also very effective and probably cheaper (it will freeze in cold weather where Tordon/Pathway will not).
</div></div>

This is "uncharted territory" for me Bonker so could be one would need to do some comparisons to find out?

Extreme cold I'm guessing would not be so great to treat vines but some mid March weather when warm sunny days is starting to get the "sap" flowing might be just right. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
I still have a few more weeks of deer season, so I'm holding off firing up the chainsaw just yet, before I start my TSI project.

I already posted on of my plans but since this is the most important part I wanted to bring it back up and discuss it a little more.

My plan reads:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stand #1 is 28 acres: CTR
This stand, located in two separate blocks of timber, is a mix of mostly large pole to small saw log size mixed oak and hickory with some ash, cedar, and an occasional walnut.

The best quality oak, walnut, and cherry will be marked and released from competition by killing adjoining trees that are competing for sunlight.


The following are the prescribed treatments represented by each of the TSI codes found above:

CTR stands for Crop Tree Release, marking and inventory. A maximum of 50 crop trees per acre are selected and marked and inventoried. They will be marked with a band of tree marking paint at Dbh. The inventory will specify species, Dbh. By 2 inch diameter classes, summarized by stand number, and will give a summary of crop trees pre acre for each stand.


The following species will be selected as crop trees, with highest preference given to the trees listed first:

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Black walnut (Juglan Nigra)
White oak (Quercus alba)
Red oak (Quercus Rubra)
Black oak (Quercus velutina)
Bur oak (Quercus macrocarpa)
Red elm (Ulmus rubra)
Black cherry (Prunus serotina)</span>


Only trees that have the potential for becoming veneer or high quality sawlog trees may be selected as crop trees, unless crop trees are being selected for wildlife considerations.

Crop trees are relatively young, vigorously growing trees. Trees with good crown symmetry is preferred.

The maximum size of crop trees will seldom exceed 18 inches Dbh. The rule of thumb is not to treat a tree if it is with in 4 inches Dbh of its anticipated final harvest diameter.

In choosing crop trees, they will be selected by species in the order given on the list, if all else is equal. <span style='font-size: 14pt'><span style="color: #FF0000">Larger trees will be selected over smaller, higher stem quality over lower,
higher crown class over lower.</span> </span>
Trees with symmetrical crowns will be chosen over trees with less symmetrical crowns. Consideration will be given to the maintenance of stand diversity and the protection of den trees, and Indiana Bat habitat.


Each crop tree will be released form sunlight competition. Free growing space will be provided on all four sides of the tree. Competing trees will be killed using the hack and squirt method, or chainsaw girdling, using a complete girdle in either case, with an approved herbicide applied to the girdle. Girdling can be done at any convenient height.

Smaller trees can be cut, with a herbicide applied to the cut surface.

Herbicides will not be used on any tree of the same species as crop trees in the area.

These trees will be killed using a double chainsaw girdle, or a 4 inch ax girdle.

Vines will be removed from all the black walnut (Juglans Nigra) crop trees, but should not be removed from other species unless they are obviously damaging the tree.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Pruning:</span> Remove limbs using an approved saw, following guidelines from recent Iowa State University pruning publications. All walnut crop trees will be pruned.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Weed trees: </span> The following species and sizes will be killed: Honey Locust

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Fences: </span> Crews will kill trees right up to your fences unless you specify otherwise on this plan. This may mean that killed trees will fall across your or your neighbor’s fences, and onto neighboring land.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Practice Life: </span> If any cost-share payments are accepted, then you have a legal obligation
to maintain the practice for specified period of time. You will be asked to sign a legally binding maintenance agreement.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Herbicides: </span> The label is the law. You must follow the label exactly. If any instructions in this plan are contrary to the label in your possession, then contact the DNR District Forester for consultation. Herbicides must be used in accordance with their label.


<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Threatened of Endangered Species: </span> Your Forest is potential summer habitat for the Indiana Bat, an endangered species. Take action appropriate for their protection.
</div></div>

This plan was written by my area IDNR forester but it's something I will "fine tune" based on my own personal objectives.

What are MY objectives??

1) To improve the quality of my hardwood timber

2) To improve my hardwood timber for wildlife habitat, primarly by increasing hard mast and encouraging undergrowth and browse.

Having said that, I will place emphasis first and foremost on white and red oak species. Should I be faced with a choice where an oak is beside a black walnut (or almost any other species) I will cull the other tree or trees near the oak.

I will kill a red oak species if it should be impeding a white oak simply because white oak mast is more attractive and desirable then reds.

Black oak mast is very toxic to wildlife so they will be the first to go of any oak species.

Now keep in mind that some crop trees may not have any competition and no trees will need to be culled.

The question we all face in this is which trees to cull when there are more then one desirable hardwood species involved?

This is where each landowner must decide for him or herself and give it some thought before hand.

If you hire yout TSI done, you can let them know what your prefernce and objectives are, however based on situations I have seen, sometimes our "wishes" get thrown by the wayside. Afterall, you aren't there to observe and when they are done...it's too late... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Eventually, we'll show pics and examples and learn to identify trees via their bark but right now, none of that is our concern. Objectives can be decided before hitting the woods.

We'll need to paint mark crop trees and identify cull trees if indeed there are any. At that point you may learn that there is a black walnut and a white oak together, knowing your objectives before hand will help you with your decision.

I suspect that I will not live long enough to see my timber harvested, I will however enjoy the benefits of increased mast production due to my TSI efforts. I also expect to see rapid changes in undergrowth as light is allowed in and competition for moisture and nutrients are reduced.

Think about your own objectives and decide what you desire most from the timber in your habitat program. More then likely your goals will be somewhat different then that of your forester but working together you can still improve your hardwood timber value and improve your widlife habitat and better your whitetail hunting at the same time!

As the winter wears on I'll hit the woods and begin to mark my crop trees and share pics of trees I need to cull and hopefully identify various trees for future reference.

If any of you have trees to identify or situations that your unsure of, please post pics and we'll see if we can help /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
Here is a walnut tree I am collecting seeds off of dbltree, I have about 100 right now to plant and already planted another couple houndred from it out at the farm this fall.

It's a very straight tree growing in the open.

BlackWalnut1.jpg


I am going to be doing the exact same thing as you, I mark great walnut, white oak, northern red oak etc when I am out hunting and remember where those trees are and cut all the less desirable trees out around them.

I have several pure hickory stands to cut around that I already directs seeded whitexenglish, american chestnut, persimmon and chinquapin seeds underneath those trees in tree tubes.
 
some more trees to help ID when doing TSI...(if you don't mind DT)

These are some of the trees that I manage for.

Swamp white oak...notice the long stem on the acorn...it will come off the cap at a 45 degree angle.

Swamp_White_Oak2.jpg


Eastern Wahoo (shrub)

UnknownTreeorShrub.jpg


False Indigo

false_indigo.jpg


Black Cherry in bloom

Black_Cherry1.jpg


Bur Oak

bur_oak.jpg


American Chestnut

chestnut1.jpg


Downy Hawthorne Seeds

DownyHawthorne.jpg


Persimmons from seed I planted

Persimmons.jpg
 
Sweet!! That's exactly the kind of help I was hoping for! Pictures are worth 10,000 words when it comes to identifying trees!!

Thanks for posting the pics! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom