Timber Stand Improvment

[Sligh1]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

Dbltree, can you send some more pics of 4 & 5??? Can you send any of the twig ends AND some leaves around them- are there ANY leaves still hanging? (probably not since you would have thought of that!!).

I think one of those is an elm possibly (that would be EASY to tell with the ends of the twigs), the other a type of oak.

I have a few on my farm that stump me like that too!!! I actually had a forester out once that couldn't tell me what a couple trees were they were so tricky!!! Often, the problem lies when a tree does not grow like the typical BOOK photos depict- often times the bark is different in texture (many times that's from growing conditions). Sometimes the leaves are not consistent either with typical looking growth & you sit there looking at them scratching your head.

Just from the bark of 4&5, you got some tricky ones!!!

 

[DWilk]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbltree</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I noticed that red oaks can have many variations
</div></div>

Northern Red and Black oak hybridize fairly regularly in the field resulting in some variable bark characteristics. That, age of the tree, site quality, etc. can also cause variations in bark.

Northern red bark characteristically has those long flat areas between ridges (more continuous looking), whereas black is more knotty and cut off.

Often times black oak doesn't develop its signature bark until its fairly mature and sometimes only at the bottom few feet of the trunk.

Good pictures!

 

[DWilk]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

-Letemgrow

Is that a chinkapin?

 

[dbltree]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sligh1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dbltree, can you send some more pics of 4 & 5??? Can you send any of the twig ends AND some leaves around them- are there ANY leaves still hanging? (probably not since you would have thought of that!!).

I think one of those is an elm possibly (that would be EASY to tell with the ends of the twigs), the other a type of oak.

I have a few on my farm that stump me like that too!!! I actually had a forester out once that couldn't tell me what a couple trees were they were so tricky!!! Often, the problem lies when a tree does not grow like the typical BOOK photos depict- often times the bark is different in texture (many times that's from growing conditions). Sometimes the leaves are not consistent either with typical looking growth & you sit there looking at them scratching your head.

Just from the bark of 4&5, you got some tricky ones!!! </div></div>

The 5th tree I'm certain is an oak and perhaps is a hybrid as mentioned.

These trees are tall so no chance of getting to twigs /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Here's #4 again...

and here is American Elm

Slippery Elm

American Basswood

Sassafras

American Sycamore

Bitternut Hickory

Poast Oak

Pin Oak

Young Pin Oak

White Oak

Interesting differences in these pics of white oak bark

This pic is of swamp white oak bark...

I'm forwarding the ones in questions to Aaron J. Lumley, IDNR Forester taking over for Ray Lehn who is off to help another country establish nurseries and such for a year.

We'll see what Aaron thinks... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

[letemgrow]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DWilk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">-Letemgrow

Is that a chinkapin?

</div></div>


from what I can tell it is, the acorns were small and the wildlife devoured them all before I could get back to pick any up. The "tree" is maybe 15 feet tall and those small saplings by it are sprouts from that tree which leads me to believe that it is a dwarf chinkapin oak since that is a characteristic that they have. Some people say they are the same as a chinkapin oak, but I know one thing the animals LOVE those acorns!!!

 

[letemgrow]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

trying to identify oaks just from the bark is very tricky...in my oak timbers there are so many variations of bark on the same species of trees it makes it tough to do. Some may of course by hybrids.

That black oak pic threw me for a loop!!! I have walnuts that look just like that.

 

[letemgrow]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

another way to tell black oak for sure is the inner bark will be brigh yellow.

 

[letemgrow]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

Here are some pics of what I do on the farm for TSI work.

There first one was a nice white oak that was surrounded by hickories.

Before Pic:

After Pic:

 

[letemgrow]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

a swamp white oak before and after...it had locusts surrounding it on both sides. I snapped the pic after I cut one of the locusts on the left hand side.

 

[letemgrow]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

A released white oak that was growing along side a elm and a hickory. It must be a high quality oak to compete side by side with those trees.

 

[dbltree]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

Great pics Phil! Make sure you scarf up some of those acorns before the wildlife does next fall! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

 

[letemgrow]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbltree</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great pics Phil! Make sure you scarf up some of those acorns before the wildlife does next fall! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif </div></div>


I am for sure going to get it done...I will stop by the tree every day on my way back from work to see when it starts dropping and get 300 or so to dibby out to everyone.

Hopefully with green leaves and the acorns I will be able to get a good id on the tree. I am hoping it is a dwarf chinkapin myself.

 

[dbltree]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

I'm going to start posting pics of my own TSI project to offer more examples of how it works and we'll go back and check on these in years to come.

My cost share plan calls for marking crop trees trees at Dbh unless they are within 4" of marketing size in which case one need not bother with release.

Some cases are relatively easy as in this case

Note competing canopy

I picked up cheap cans of red spray paint to do my marking

Trees that are culled near a fence are going to start droping brances on them so one needs to be aware and keep an eye on things in case fence repair is needed later on. Note the tree next to the fence on the far right is one that I culled.

I had several clumps of oaks like these

With competing canopy

Some clusters are all different species and in all cases I chose red, black or burr oak over other species such as the black cherry and hickory in this pic.

Here's a shot at the canopy and obvious reasons for releasing them

The nice thing about doing your own is that you have the option of leaving den trees

or looking at a clump and going "heyyy...that a perfect stand spot"... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

I killed cull trees by girdling with a chainsaw

Most of my cull trees consisted of shingle oak, honey locust and shagbark hickories.

I didn't try to kill anymore shingle oaks then needed but did kill as many hickories as I could.

I'll keep adding pics as I have time but you can see why doing TSI (marking Crop Trees) is important before doing hinge cutting for bedding areas /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[letemgrow]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

great work there DT!!!

 

[dbltree]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

I'm not sure how long the paint will stay on the crop trees but it does make it easy to see where you need to cull.

Some situations were pretty easy to decide what to cut! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
but hey...you know it's not a good idea to lean into a honey locust with your shoulder while girdling it! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

Most cull trees were girdled but in areas where I also was working on creating some bedding areas or additional cover I went ahead and tipped them over.

Before

A look at the canopy

After

Lots of leaves on the forest floor but a little "snooping" will give you some clues to the trees above...

A black oak leaf

A red oak leaf

Black on the left and burr on the right

Note the red oak species (all of them) will have "pointed" tips while the white oak species (which includes burr oaks) will have rounded leaf tips.

Lot's to learn when we take a closer look at our timber and the more we know about the habitat on our property, the more we can learn about the wildlife that inhabits it as well... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

 

[kurtish]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

I was in the woods today and i found 3 volunteer apple trees that I would like to release to promote fruiting. I have multiple black oaks that are leaning over the top of the apples which will need to go to allow for ample light to produce fruit. What I am wondering is; will I be better off girdling the black oaks or should I just try to drop them now and deal with any damage to the apple trees that might occur on impact. I'm not for sure whether this really fits with TSI, but in my case timber value means nothing and the added soft mast would be a big draw card in my small piece of timber(to me that's improvement).

Here' a great site for helping with identification and familiarizing yourself with the various species that you may encounter while perfoming your TSI

http://msuplants.com/pd_search.html

 

[dbltree]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">will I be better off girdling the black oaks or should I just try to drop them now and deal with any damage to the apple trees that might occur on impact. </div></div>

I would for sure girdle them! That's the whole reason for girdling in that the trees die and canopy is opened up instantly but the tree rots down over time and limbs fall one at a time without damaged crop trees or in your case...the apple trees.

Thanks for the link! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[letemgrow]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

Good work there DT!!!

 

[dbltree]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

Took a walk with my IDNR forester today and learned a few things. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

He mentioned that "clumps" like these are better off left alone because the "killed" portion just ends up rotting and destroying the whole tree.

He said a rule of thumb is if you can get your foot inbetween them at the base (if it's U shaped) then culling inferior parts will be OK.

He also mentioned that the reason these burr oaks grew like that is because it is growing from a stump! Logged 40-50 years ago these burr oaks sprouted up from the stump.

To bad somebody didn't do TSI about 30 years ago... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

This is another example where it's better to just leave the tree intact:

I knew I had lot's of shagbark hickory but it turns out I also have lot's of bitternut hickory

It appears I have only one white oak and a couple "babies" on the whole place... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif

White Oak

White Oak Bark

Young White Oak Bark

White Oak Leaf

Leaves still holding on this young white oak

One of the distinct advantages of doing TSI is to open up canopy so that new oak seedlings can come up. We can keep them alive and hold back "junk" by burning as often as possible.

Young oaks can survive fire while hickories and ironwood will be set back.

 

[letemgrow]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

Good info DT!!!

I always figured those clumps were either stump sprouts from logging or where a young tree was browsed and resprouted.


I would for sure be targeting those white oaks for TSI since you have very few and if you want some acorns I may be able to scrounge up some from a really nice white oak I posted pics earlier of.