Buck Hollow Sporting Goods - click or touch to visit their website Midwest Habitat Company

TSI Pictures

turtl,

Oaks are very tolerant of shade when they are young. This is nature's way of regeneration. They sit on the forest floor "waiting" for some catastrophic event to take out some overstory trees -- lightening, winds, ice, etc, and then they grow and fill in the gap. Keep in mind, though, that oaks lose this tolerance as they age -- go into any oak forest and look under canopy cover, for instance, at the mid-story level, and you will see dead oaks and twisted oaks, searching for light, whose tops are flat and dying. We clear-cut (that's right -- clear-cut) 40 acres of mature oak, having 10,000 seedling oaks per acre under their canopy, several years back, because many of those young oaks where starting to top out and die. You should see this area now! Five years post harvest it is the best big buck farm I know of because of the cover and browse food supply. This tract has thousands of white oak per acre that are growing fast and are strong and vibrant. The white oak on this tract will someday be of superior quality and should have many veneer quality trees per acre. I have yet to see such quality in areas dominated by oak that have been select harvested, and we spend every day managing timber ground across the state.

In areas with extensive hard maple, oak regeneration is almost always non-existent or very poor (all of northeast Iowa). The more shade tolerant, and faster growing, hard maple completely shade out any young oak seedlings. The end result is a forest with mixed older oak species -- but few if any younger trees -- and mostly hard maple of various age classes. This is a HUGE problem with east-central and northeast Iowa. The forests are turning from oak-hickory stands to mostly maple. Ask most any forester in southern Iowa and they will suggest that you kill all hard maple in your oak timber if you want to sustain good oak regeneration there into the future. One of the leading experts on white oak in the world literally pats us on the back when we do a good job killing the hard maple in the forests we work on with him. Hard maple are a HUGE threat to the future of our oak forests.

Anyone can feel free to contact us if they'd like to see some of the things I've described first-hand (tour one of our properties). We also have a DVD available that talks about the basic aspects of going about TSI.

Best,
Rich Waite
 
Well said Raven ...

Forest succession, oak forest converting to maple forest, is a real problem for the future of Iowa's timber that few people see.

Excessive use of select logging instead of clear cut logging and the absence of fire will greatly reduce the quality of our forests in the future.
 
TSI

That time of year again...

If you are interested in timber management this post is full of good information. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
 
Re: TSI

A few questions for the experts:

Why girdle a tree and not just let it fall? If you are spraying the tree, I'm assuming you're wanting to kill it. Are you spraying to kill anything that might grow from the stump? If I hinge cut a cottonwood, would it keep growing or just snap?

I have a small piece (1.5 acre) woodlot that is pretty much open (this is common where I'm from and deer actually use these small woodlots). There are a few oaks, but mostly cherry, ash and maple and lots of trash trees (cottonwood and dead standing elm). I would love to somehow thicken up 1/4 acre- 1/2 acre for a bedding area. The area that surrounds the woodlot is surrounded by more open small woodlots.

I'm thinking if I create a thick spot, it might attract deer in the area and hold does for the rut. Would it be better to hinge cut or cut down completely? What trees would you take out? Keep in mind that I don't want to cut everything because it's my only spot to hunt (behind my house). I guess what I'm asking is if you HAD to do something with this spot, what would be your plan of attack? Thanks for listening guys!

BC
 
Re: TSI

Once a tree has been dead and standing for a couple years it is much lighter and will break up and fall without as much damage to surrounding trees. It also safer and takes much less time to girdle and squirt than to drop trees if they are thick and get hung up or damage good trees when falling. Hinge cutting works best on edges so plenty of light is hitting the tops.
 
Re: TSI

I was just going to take some on the advise on this thread and start hacking on the numerous pole sized maple groves that seem to be sprouting up everywhere, but I talked to the neighbor first who owns about 1000 acres and practices QDM. He said that maples are actually a preferred food source for whitetails. Their leaves are high in sugar content and are great food source. I'm certainly no expert. What do you guys think?
 
Re: TSI

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bullwinkle04</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was just going to take some on the advise on this thread and start hacking on the numerous pole sized maple groves that seem to be sprouting up everywhere, but I talked to the neighbor first who owns about 1000 acres and practices QDM. He said that maples are actually a preferred food source for whitetails. Their leaves are high in sugar content and are great food source. I'm certainly no expert. What do you guys think? </div></div>

Just my own personal thoughts...

Deer aren't going to be able to forage much off from "pole size" maples. They need new growth that they can reach...

This is Iowa...farm country unlike northern forested areas, deer have plenty to eat without choosing maples.

Again...just my personal feelings...I'd rather manage for oaks/high protien acorns in the timber for feed and shrubby browse from opening up areas that don't have oaks. Maples are going to come up when you open up an area but I'd be inclined to kill them with burning if at all possible.

In a few years they become unusable for browse as do most "timber" type trees. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
Thanks for bringing this subject to the board. I just bought my place two years ago and wanted to do some TSI. Frankly I was trying to build up the nerve to cut some of the walnut and oak trees. After reading your input, I now feel better about doing it.
 
Keef,

Trust me, it took me years of educating myself, and just plain old getting the nerve up to cut on a tree before I committed to serious TSI.

These are my pictures at the start of the post...I was very apprehensive about cutting anything!!! A good 8 hour walk with a good distric forester will get you started. I had one on the state's best that is now retired.

I girdled some white oaks that just about made me sit down and cry!!!

But,I have seen the benefits already, and I'm sure my kids will see the benefits after I am long gone.

Some guys just go out here wacking trees thinking they are doing good things. Just make sure you have goals, a plan, and knowledge of what you want to accomplish before you start your saw.

It's the kind of hard work that you will love to do!
 
Re: TSI

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bullwinkle04</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was just going to take some on the advise on this thread and start hacking on the numerous pole sized maple groves that seem to be sprouting up everywhere, but I talked to the neighbor first who owns about 1000 acres and practices QDM. He said that maples are actually a preferred food source for whitetails. Their leaves are high in sugar content and are great food source. I'm certainly no expert. What do you guys think? </div></div>

Not certain about the habitat in your area, but in Iowa, Maple trees are going to the forest floor on my place.

I agree with Doubletree, if it doesn't have a mast crop appeal, it is doing nothing but shading out oak browse for deer.

Don't get me wrong, don't go killing $2000 Walnut trees because they don't feed wildlife! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
 
Re: TSI

Im going thru my place as well this year. I have alot of hickory with small young oaks scatter everywhere. Im picking my spots but alot of hickory is coming down. Hopefully ill make some beding cover by doing so. Ill get some pictures of the distruction when i go back out.

Im droping as many as i can. Im going to girdle the ones that are hugh, or wont drop where i want them. What does everyone prefer droping them or girdling them?

I use to think i didnt have anything but hickory, but now im noticing some walnut and cheary as well!
 
Re: TSI

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What does everyone prefer droping them or girdling them?
</div></div>

If you have good timber quality trees around them that you don't want to damage, I would girdle them.

If your opening up the whole area to make a thick bedding area then dropping them makes a nice "mess" to encourage bedding even among the brush created by the tops.

Some trees are just to dangerous to work on...no sense risking your life for a bedding area... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif If they are that huge it make be wize to girdle or contact a local logger. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
Quote:
What does everyone prefer droping them or girdling them?





If you have good timber quality trees around them that you don't want to damage, I would girdle them.

If your opening up the whole area to make a thick bedding area then dropping them makes a nice "mess" to encourage bedding even among the brush created by the tops.

Some trees are just to dangerous to work on...no sense risking your life for a bedding area... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif If they are that huge it make be wize to girdle or contact a local logger. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Just a question I had related to this sentence. I'm a rookie with TSI but getting ready to do quite a bit here real soon. Obviously Dbltree knows what he is doing and I don't question that one bit but I just want some more info. I would have guessed the opposite with this statement. If I was to girdle a big tree around other good hardwoods such as walnuts, it seems that this method would make me more nervous for the fact that after it dies and falls it could potentially crush neighboring trees? Can someone please help me understand this?

Thank you!
 
Just a question I had related to this sentence. I'm a rookie with TSI but getting ready to do quite a bit here real soon. Obviously Dbltree knows what he is doing and I don't question that one bit but I just want some more info. I would have guessed the opposite with this statement. If I was to girdle a big tree around other good hardwoods such as walnuts, it seems that this method would make me more nervous for the fact that after it dies and falls it could potentially crush neighboring trees? Can someone please help me understand this?

Thank you!

It should crumble more than just fall over time. Obviously some trees will uproot and fall, but I have not seen that to be very common.

A cut tree is for sure going to fall (may fall free and clear too) and the larger they are, the more damage they can do to a neighboring tree. Its also easier in timber, with more trees around, to girdle and move on then have widow makers hanging all over.

Then you factor in how snags benefit lots of species and its a good idea to leave some standing for that reason alone.
 
Last edited:
Just a question I had related to this sentence. I'm a rookie with TSI but getting ready to do quite a bit here real soon. Obviously Dbltree knows what he is doing and I don't question that one bit but I just want some more info. I would have guessed the opposite with this statement. If I was to girdle a big tree around other good hardwoods such as walnuts, it seems that this method would make me more nervous for the fact that after it dies and falls it could potentially crush neighboring trees? Can someone please help me understand this?

Thank you!

I am not a professional forester, but I have learned from the school of hard knocks, reading threads like this and now a fair amount of first hand experience. :D

If you can SAFELY drop a big tree and NOT damage surrounding desirable trees, then have at it. You can create some good habitat and a source of firewood too, if that is what you need.

(BTW, not aiming at you or anyone in particular, but if you are new to TSI, hinge cutting, etc, I cannot emphasize enough how dangerous it can be to tackle larger trees with a chainsaw, etc. Please be sure you are properly prepared and educated prior to starting. If not, please consider working with someone experienced for a day or two, etc.)

I don't hesitate to double girdle smaller or medium sized trees, but I will not do it in areas where I am willing to leave to chance which way that tree will ultimately fall. For instance, I will not girdle next to trails/lanes, stand areas or interior roads because, guess what...a year or so later you have a tree laying across your lane or swiping your stand out of the tree on the way down, etc, just because the wind happened to be blowing a particular direction on the day that tree decided to fall. ;)

It is safer to girdle bigger trees as opposed to dropping them, at the time you are doing it, BUT, a year or so later when the tree is dead and the branches are falling, you can have a more dangerous situation on your hands. Be careful about sawing on a dead tree in particular, whether killed by girdling or any other method, because the larger overhead branches might be just on edge of falling when you start rocking that tree a little...and then whammo, a branch falls on you unexpectedly from above.

Those branches are called "widow makers", and the name is appropriate.

Assuming though that you do not care which way the dead tree ultimately falls AND you have other desirable trees nearby that you want to protect, then girdling is good because the dead branches will dry out over time, become much lighter than when they were alive and normally fall to the floor piece by piece and do little to no damage to surrounding trees.

I would also advise making a game plan in advance, map out what trees you are targeting, don't wing it so to speak. Be sure you know your species or get help identifying trees too.

On the day of the cutting, I take into account the wind direction and speed and try to start "at the end" of your TSI zone. By that I mean, if I am dropping trees, I start where I can safely get trees to drop all the way to the ground and then work upslope, dropping the next "wave" on top of the first, etc. This produces a layered effect, which I prefer, v. just a random drop.
 
Top Bottom