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Great podcast to listen to! Steve Hansen on the Land Podcast

They pounded the young good genetic bucks, and it destroyed the area. I sold because of that. Even in Iowa it's an issue, almost everyone wants to hunt old, mature bucks, but VERY VERY few will do what it takes to grow them. I think a great genetic buck has almost zero % chance of surviving past 3 years old in most areas. Virtually every farm is hunted, and everyone has trail cams. So, if a buck with great potential is around, everyone in the area knows about him.
That's one of the biggest disadvantages to more and more people holding out for trophy class deer without regard to age. The better young deer get screened out more often than in the past IMO because they're more visible at 3 and their range is way too broad.

I had a 130" 2 year old come by me multiple times in one day chasing every doe he saw....he had 5 brows and good mass....he didn't make it.
 
I’d rather have neighbors that shoot the first decent buck they see than ones that hold out for a trophy, provided there is a solid population of bucks, and they aren’t running too many hunters. As Rous14 has been saying, it is a numbers game. The fact is only about 1 in 3 bucks has high end genetics and those bucks looks way too good at 3 for 99% of guys to pass. The more bucks you have the greater the possibility of the right ones getting to age, even if some of the high end ones get clipped before they reach their potential.

I feel like my best truly big buck hunting is in the past just like my best muskie fishing.
 
First of all, Id like to say a big THANK YOU to Steve on all of his efforts along side Skip at the capital. Much Appreciated!

The discussion on the large tract not producing high end deer reminds me a lot of the Winke Farm/Albia area. Is too much "management" a bad thing?
It was a case of “too many mistakes”. Been all over Winkes. I’m on big farms all the time. “8 out of 10” have huge problems that are hard to solve….
Most are run by bully bucks folks don’t or can’t put their tags on. Way too many!!! This is a HUGE problem!!!!!
Food is not diverse & plentiful
Hunting it wrong - long list.
Hunting skills lacking - sorry- this is WAAAAYYYY OVER 50%!!!!!!!!
Forage & browse are eaten down badly.
Neighbors target big farms way harder than other farms - usually loaded with fence sitters out to shoot the best scoring 2-4 year olds & many get shot.
Not keeping up with the huge list of tasks: fertility & PH. Consistent TSI. Spending the time to have 3-4 types of food plots.
Owners thay can’t let the “175” 4.5 year old go or even a bomber 3.5” but they “want 200’s or mature giants”
Spending millions on the farm but being a cheap-skate for improvements & yearly costs to make them great.
Not the ambition or ability or knowledge to do the huge amont of work required.
On & on & on…. There’s so much work on these big farms … the list is endless. Challenges are endless. MOST end up being dissapointed and throw in the towel. Good size farms in the “best areas” - come for sale over & over …. Guys spend 3 years on em- don’t meet expectations or get frustrated & sell. “Big deer areas” are a realtors dream as they can resell the same farm 3-5 times!!! Winkes farm is for sale for the 3rd or 4th time again.
Heck- farm I own - i was 4th “hunter/owner” & last 3 said “the farm kinda sucked”. Ha! & when I bought it… it did!!! Sucked bad!!! Took ton of work to turn around.

Everyone thinks “Jim Bob has a huge farm- must be full of giants”. Im telling u…. 80%++ of these big farms- not the case. I could write a 20 page post on this but I’ll spare u guys ;)
 
It was a case of “too many mistakes”. Been all over Winkes. I’m on big farms all the time. “8 out of 10” have huge problems that are hard to solve….
Most are run by bully bucks folks don’t or can’t put their tags on. Way too many!!! This is a HUGE problem!!!!!
Food is not diverse & plentiful
Hunting it wrong - long list.
Forage & browse are eaten down badly.
Neighbors target big farms way harder than other farms - usually loaded with fence sitters out to shoot the best scoring 2-4 year olds & many get shot.
Not keeping up with the huge list of tasks: fertility & PH. Consistent TSI. Spending the time to have 3-4 types of food plots.
Owners thay can’t let the “175” 4.5 year old go but they want “200’s” “.
Spending millions on the farm but being a cheap-skate for improvements & yearly costs to make them great.
Not the ambition or ability or knowledge to do the huge amont of work required.
On & on & on…. There’s so much work on these big farms … the list is endless. Challenges are endless. MOST end up being dissapointed and throw in the towel.
Everyone thinks “Jim Bob has a huge farm- must be full of giants”. Im telling u…. 80%++ of these big farms- not the case. I could write a 20 page post on this but I’ll spare u guys ;)
I’m listening Skip as I think we’re all searching for the “answers“…..but I can’t help but feel like 95% of your list has always been the case hasn’t it? Few if any were doing tsi in the 2000’s compared to today. Food- with popularity of food plots today vs 2000’s there HAS to be more food and diversity isn’t there? Forage and browse- half the deer in IA and IL now as there was then so HAS to be more forage today then there was then right? Feels like to me that in 2005 i don’t think I knew of a single person, myself included, that did a single thing habitat/management wise. I showed up and hunted. Didn’t even know what most of this stuff was then. Today, I know a ton of people that are putting in acres of high quality food plots, putting in switchgrass, doing tsi, planting fruit trees, doing soil tests, and on and on. Never been better management than there is today. Never been more guys, still a minority granted, that are passing 3yr olds than there is right now.
So I don’t know. I’m convinced that 75% of it is just too few deer and the other 25% is something we just don’t know or understand yet (chemicals on the row crops, lack of micros vs back then, something I don’t know).
 
I’m listening Skip as I think we’re all searching for the “answers“…..but I can’t help but feel like 95% of your list has always been the case hasn’t it? Few if any were doing tsi in the 2000’s compared to today. Food- with popularity of food plots today vs 2000’s there HAS to be more food and diversity isn’t there? Forage and browse- half the deer in IA and IL now as there was then so HAS to be more forage today then there was then right? Feels like to me that in 2005 i don’t think I knew of a single person, myself included, that did a single thing habitat/management wise. I showed up and hunted. Didn’t even know what most of this stuff was then. Today, I know a ton of people that are putting in acres of high quality food plots, putting in switchgrass, doing tsi, planting fruit trees, doing soil tests, and on and on. Never been better management than there is today. Never been more guys, still a minority granted, that are passing 3yr olds than there is right now.
So I don’t know. I’m convinced that 75% of it is just too few deer and the other 25% is something we just don’t know or understand yet (chemicals on the row crops, lack of micros vs back then, something I don’t know).
Those problems existed before. The days of “im frustrated with my big farm” was “loud & clear” in early 2000’s. I went to “the ranch” in its glory days and they were scratching for “solutions” to fix that place. Countless big farms were bought & sold. Frustration & mistakes is nothing recent!!!
What u are describing is “a high tide lifts all ships” …. When things were “great” (call it late 90’s to 2010 for example)….. big farms had GIANTS - just like small farms had GIANTS!! Everywhere was “better” - big or small. So- we see a degradation across big & small. Small farms got hit harder & it’s harder to grow older bucks than it used to be. But- big farms have suffered the same. They got hit with ehd. They get targeted far more than 20 years ago. & 20 years ago- they did get targeted by guys wanting to hunt the borders …. It’s just worse now.
I’ve been on about half dozen “premo” farms in iowa over this last winter. Farms u all would “know of”. 100% of them…. I said “holy crap dude- ur borders & fences are COVERED IN STANDS!!!! Was insane.

20 years ago- plots were big. Tsi was catching on. Not to this level. But plots in particular were big deal.

Here’s a bottom line I discussed with someone with some of the biggest farms in iowa a month or so ago. I said “u think it’s worse and way harder to grow giants?” I had my answer. His “100%!!!! Way harder”. We both summarized it like this…. 20 years ago u could have a big farm and u would have giants flowing here & there. “They were just always there”. NOW……. “You have to fight tooth & nail to pull every trick to keep em safe. U have to work & fight for em. Baby them. Make your farm super unique If u don’t dot all the i’s and cross all the T’s…. Won’t have em”. And that’s as spot on as I can make it. The competition, technology & amount of dudes wanting to “shoot a big one to post” is absolutely way more intense. Good or bad…. That’s the reality.
My little 80 in early 2000’s had fully mature giants every year. Food plots. No cameras. Tsi was done. But “everywhere was good”. That same farm- I have no clue but im 100000% sure it’s nothing like it was. All the plots, nutrition & everything done right- the hole in the bucket of “all the best up & comers get picked off” will ruin any scenario. One weak link in the chain- done or damaged. Multiple weak links: crap results. Bad nutrition, bully bucks, best bucks getting targeted, wide open timber, hunting it wrong, etc etc - it’s a bunch of things & WHY the vast majority of big farms are a “disappointment”. A lot of it is the person running it. make no mistake- those same issues were very real 20 years ago. There was simply more big bucks to go around for everyone. Now they are far more rare for a myriad of reasons & guys will go through greater lengths to try to make their farms mimic the “good old days”. Fighting a receding tide at the same time makes it far more difficult.

****OH!!!!! & to your MAIN POINT!!!…. ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!! Deer population is a HUUUUGGGEEE part of this!!!! HUUUUUGGGGGEEEE!!!!!! 210k deer shot in Iowa to HALF that now!!! Absolutely this is where MOST of the problems find their foundation!!! More deer for everyone makes all the other problems much less significant in a state like iowa!!!
 
Mega bucks are a needle in a haystack it seems..I'm betting in most of Iowa less than 3% of the bucks out there are over 170..Then you get into the 180s, 90s and 200 it's 1% or less. So much involved to get a true giant these days. These bucks need some luck to get to maturity.
 
The decline of deer numbers in Iowa are likely the single biggest contributor IMO. You now have more people hunting the fewer, better bucks. This has compounded the issue.

I've seen the opposite happen here in MO. Rise of population overall numbers, has increased population of better bucks overall also. Just sample size..

People think fewer deer equals more resources for bigger bucks. Unless you have massive browse lines, I believe the carrying capacity is much more than we believe..

My $.02..
 
Too many new bowhunters buying 20-80 acre pieces, many from cut up larger farms, all equipped with a kill box(food plot)is a large part of the problem. All you need to kill a deer is a 5 acre field and a food plot with a blind. Food plots are biting us in the arse much like baiting. Throw up a rubbing post and or licking branch and you got em. Throw in rolling EHD and you're going to see the top end deer go away.
 
The last 2 posts are spot on!!! Very different but both perfection!!!! When there’s “half as many bucks” and more hunters with better technology & every trick & tool to get on a buck…. It’s gonna make the average area way worse.
2/3rd of iowa went from “I have some good deer around” to “there’s no deer around”. I can’t emphasize enough- there’s countless counties that have all but eradicated the deer. I talk to dudes all the time there…. “We don’t have any deer”. I lost my hunting spot, not because I don’t have permission but because they dozed all the trees!” 2/3rds of the state got ruined after Brandstad & politicians sided with FB to kill all the deer. We are half in Harvest- HALF!!!! KEY!!!…. When it’s “half” - that’s not PROPORTIONAL across state. Much of the state has been eradicated. Like, I’d bet u some regions are down 90% while others are are only down 10% for example. It’s not like everyone is 50% across the board.
The politicians TO THIS DAY think there’s too many deer!! They still think #’s are the same as 20 years ago. They have no clue the Harvest is HALF what it was!!!! Or areas have few to no deer. MAKE NO MISTAKE!!!! ISC & IBA are Educating them!!!!!! :)
 
Lots of big picture thoughts that've never crossed my mind before. What a complex unforeseen thing. The scary thing is all of the recent negative trends and Xbows aren't even in the mix yet.

as Merle asked, "Are the good times really over for good?"
 
Mega bucks are a needle in a haystack it seems..I'm betting in most of Iowa less than 3% of the bucks out there are over 170..Then you get into the 180s, 90s and 200 it's 1% or less. So much involved to get a true giant these days. These bucks need some luck to get to maturity.
That’s no joke that so few deer make it big anymore- what’s crazier- I know a group of guys who travel all over the state finding big bucks and then killing them. They have multiple 170, multiple 180s, multiple 190s, and even multiple 215+. It’s crazy the success they have- but never in the same county.
 
The politicians TO THIS DAY think there’s too many deer!! They still think #’s are the same as 20 years ago. They have no clue the Harvest is HALF what it was!!!! Or areas have few to no deer. MAKE NO MISTAKE!!!! ISC & IBA are Educating them!!!!!!
Agreed on the politicians but as a whole, we need to educate the new and young hunters. We did it on the overkill in the antlerless seasons...should work on the young bucks also. We are the ones ultimately pulling the trigger.

On a positive note...these consistent rains this year sure do help! It makes you wonder how much damage multiple dry years in a row hurt the deer.
 
The last 2 posts are spot on!!! Very different but both perfection!!!! When there’s “half as many bucks” and more hunters with better technology & every trick & tool to get on a buck…. It’s gonna make the average area way worse.
2/3rd of iowa went from “I have some good deer around” to “there’s no deer around”. I can’t emphasize enough- there’s countless counties that have all but eradicated the deer. I talk to dudes all the time there…. “We don’t have any deer”. I lost my hunting spot, not because I don’t have permission but because they dozed all the trees!” 2/3rds of the state got ruined after Brandstad & politicians sided with FB to kill all the deer. We are half in Harvest- HALF!!!! KEY!!!…. When it’s “half” - that’s not PROPORTIONAL across state. Much of the state has been eradicated. Like, I’d bet u some regions are down 90% while others are are only down 10% for example. It’s not like everyone is 50% across the board.
The politicians TO THIS DAY think there’s too many deer!! They still think #’s are the same as 20 years ago. They have no clue the Harvest is HALF what it was!!!! Or areas have few to no deer. MAKE NO MISTAKE!!!! ISC & IBA are Educating them!!!!!! :)
The Politicians yes, but what’s 100 times worse is that 90% of the hunting industry hasn’t realized the decline in numbers and still think they should be killing does too! Need guys like Lee Lakosky, Don Higgins, Drurys, Bowmar, etc….to really start hammering this issue and getting the masses to wake up to it. Great to hear ISC and IBA are pushing the awareness
 
The Politicians yes, but what’s 100 times worse is that 90% of the hunting industry hasn’t realized the decline in numbers and still think they should be killing does too! Need guys like Lee Lakosky, Don Higgins, Drurys, Bowmar, etc….to really start hammering this issue and getting the masses to wake up to it. Great to hear ISC and IBA are pushing the awareness
Josh Bowmar compared violating the Lacey Act to a speeding ticket, nobody should be looking to him for advice on anything. In fact, I'd argue social media notoriety/killing for content is another piece of this puzzle. There's a non-zero % of hunters that have to kill 1-2 bucks every year to be able to post it to social media or have something for their Youtube channel. You can't go a week in an Iowa hunting group on Facebook without a new post with something like "Check out my new Youtube page" or "Just moved here from Pennsylvania, what's a good public piece to get started on before I get a lease" from a person clearly trying to become an influencer.
 
Josh Bowmar compared violating the Lacey Act to a speeding ticket, nobody should be looking to him for advice on anything. In fact, I'd argue social media notoriety/killing for content is another piece of this puzzle. There's a non-zero % of hunters that have to kill 1-2 bucks every year to be able to post it to social media or have something for their Youtube channel. You can't go a week in an Iowa hunting group on Facebook without a new post with something like "Check out my new Youtube page" or "Just moved here from Pennsylvania, what's a good public piece to get started on before I get a lease" from a person clearly trying to become an influencer.
Yea I don’t pay close enough attention to him to know the details or to judge so I’ll take your word for it but regardless, all of the well known “celebrity” types that have thousands of hunters as an audience (vs me or your circle of 30-50 or whatever) can make a massive influence on what hunters think and accept. Having Josh making folks that do follow him aware of the fact that there’s half as many deer in IA or IL and that the doe harvest needs to decrease is definitely important imo
But, totally get what you’re saying.
 
Yea I don’t pay close enough attention to him to know the details or to judge so I’ll take your word for it but regardless, all of the well known “celebrity” types that have thousands of hunters as an audience (vs me or your circle of 30-50 or whatever) can make a massive influence on what hunters think and accept. Having Josh making folks that do follow him aware of the fact that there’s half as many deer in IA or IL and that the doe harvest needs to decrease is definitely important imo
But, totally get what you’re saying.
I think the celebrity hunters don't like to address anything controversial because most of their listeners prefer things like guns in the rut, crossbows, not hunting age, etc... They tread lightly on anything that could influence the number of viewers they get. There was a great podcast yesterday I saw on the huntr podcast. They had jeff Lindsey on, and he addressed some tough issues. I thought he did a great job in doing it too.
 
I think the celebrity hunters don't like to address anything controversial because most of their listeners prefer things like guns in the rut, crossbows, not hunting age, etc... They tread lightly on anything that could influence the number of viewers they get. There was a great podcast yesterday I saw on the huntr podcast. They had jeff Lindsey on, and he addressed some tough issues. I thought he did a great job in doing it too.
Probably some truth here no doubt. Although it seems like they could find a way to do it without risking anything. Pointing out how the deer numbers are half of what they used to be in the “good ol days” and that they are choosing to not shoot does for awhile doesn’t seem super controversial or as divisive as some of the other topics you point out.
i saw that Lindsey was on huntr podcast but have not watched it yet, I need to do that.
 
I really enjoyed this podcast. Without writing a book to summarize I just thought they brought up some excellent points and it wasn't a bash session against any one particular group or method of hunting.
 
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