Giant Deer of Iowa are rapidly becoming a past memory

[justinkarns]

IMHO - I think the cell cam "issue" revolves more around the ease of use and time spent operating them. There is a way larger number of hunters who are willing to put out a cell cam and never have to check it, as opposed to the amount of hunters that are willing/able to run cards regularly. It's a greater time investment, requires more trips to the property. As stated above,

But guys that have that flexibility I bet are less than 1% of the licensed tag holders in Iowa

I would agree. Therefore, the other 99%, now have real time data of their farms, without having to visit, from even states away. The guys without the flexibility wouldn't be able to run cards as frequently, resulting in less deer being detected in real time. More deer probably die in this scenario.

The security they have brought to farms to prevent trespassers has so drastically reduced the amount of trespassing since they became widely used, that MASSIVE benefit can't be denied. It might even outweigh the negatives we speak of.. very valuable!!

 

[Daver]

I 100% agree that cell cameras and regular trail cameras do contribute to high grading with regard to knowing they are there and being put on the target list. But it still comes down to the guy managing to decide if that deer gets shot if or when the deer presents an opportunity.

I also 100% agree that can be a deadly October tactic. But you typically need a cold front to get a mature buck on his feet before end of shooting time in October. You also have to have the ability to be off work to utilize that weather front correct? So if the cold front is coming on Tuesday and the temperatures are going back up to normal by Thursday are you taking off Tuesday and Wednesday just in case you get a picture of him heading to bed Tuesday or Wednesday morning? My point is most guys don’t have the flexibility to hunt any day and every day. If I saw that cold front coming and had the flexibility to be able to hunt it, I could easily slip in and check regular trial cameras on that plot or several different plots for that matter between 10:00 AM and noon. Then be back in the box blind I think is the best option by 3:00 that afternoon. Same end result. But guys that have that flexibility I bet are less than 1% of the licensed tag holders in Iowa.

The same guy that puts in the all the time and work into creating the bedding area, plants a green food source right next to it, sets up the box blind and creates undetectable entry and exit into the box blind is likely going to hunt that October cold front with or without a cell camera picture of his target buck if his schedule allows. Correct? Why is that? Because a guy with that kind of attention to detail is going to know how that cold front will affect buck movement and will more than likely accomplish the same end result. That is wrapping his tag around his target bucks antler.

Just stop and think about what puts that deer in front of that box blind and ultimately leads to his demise. It has nothing to do with the cell camera. It is due to close desirable bedding location, next to a preferred food source and the cold front that gets him on the move before end of shooting time. Now take away his ability to smell you with the box blind and ask yourself the following questions…Did the close bedding kill him? Did the food plot kill him? Did the weather front kill him? Did the box blind kill him? Does the cell camera really even matter at this point in this equation? Why does everyone want to demonize the cell camera? I don’t think it’s even worth thinking about because the same information can be obtained with a regular trail camera as I pointed out. I also think it is dead last in the list of factors that led to the deers ultimate demise.

As I have mentioned in other posts, the number one benefit of cell cameras in my opinion is they have been a huge deterrent for guys that would trespass through your property. This typically occurred during the gun seasons and shed season. Prior to cell cameras becoming widely used guys would throw on a face mask/neck gator and go anywhere they wanted. They had zero worries about being caught because by the time you checked your regular trail camera they were long gone and good luck catching them. Now with cell cameras they know they can’t even get back to the road without the owner or the game warden beating them there and having their picture on their phone to identify them. Making cell cameras have a delay of 12, 24, 48 hours or even banning them will take that deterrent away.

My thoughts are…I would rather loose a top end buck to a neighbor that puts in time, money and effort into the deer herd that uses cell cameras, versus loosing him to 10 guys who push through my property and the neighbors without permission.

Other than that, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln? This ^^ completely ignores the reality that cell cams ARE being used in a fashion that then leads to choosing "that" field/blind/stand to then hunt...minutes or hours after a Mr. Big appearance. It is electronic surveillance, pure and simple. It greatly ups the odds for the "hunter" to have this "MRI", Most Recent Information. Without that MRI that hunter...may not even hunt that day, etc, may very well choose another place to hunt not having the MRI as to the whereabouts of their target.

As hunters we can agree to disagree about should change, etc, but I cannot begin to fathom how someone can dismiss the impact of these cameras. A month or so ago some of us commented on a notable hunter that had a Facebook post this season lamenting that he didn't use the "check the field" function prior to advancing to his stand/blind...as his target buck was on the scene already and he then spooked it...because he didn't use his cell cam to pre-check the area. What??? That's not hunting, that's electronic surveillance that then greatly aids the taking of deer, notably bucks.

 

[IowaBowHunter1983]

That's where I live and this is the first I've heard of it.

EHD decimation? Im not familiar with local dynamics up there.

 

[IowaBowHunter1983]

Other than that, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln? This ^^ completely ignores the reality that cell cams ARE being used in a fashion that then leads to choosing "that" field/blind/stand to then hunt...minutes or hours after a Mr. Big appearance. It is electronic surveillance, pure and simple. It greatly ups the odds for the "hunter" to have this "MRI", Most Recent Information. Without that MRI that hunter...may not even hunt that day, etc, may very well choose another place to hunt not having the MRI as to the whereabouts of their target.

As hunters we can agree to disagree about should change, etc, but I cannot begin to fathom how someone can dismiss the impact of these cameras. A month or so ago some of us commented on a notable hunter that had a Facebook post this season lamenting that he didn't use the "check the field" function prior to advancing to his stand/blind...as his target buck was on the scene already and he then spooked it...because he didn't use his cell cam to pre-check the area. What??? That's not hunting, that's electronic surveillance that then greatly aids the taking of deer, notably bucks.

Electronic surveillance.... you're exactly right.

I think comparing cell cams to regular cams is a bit off the mark to put it as kindly as I can.

 

[abell3]

I don’t think his entire post loses credibility because you disagree with his cell cam position.

Agreed. My initial post saying his post loses all creditably was incorrect. He has good points in there. I just disagree with a few.

 

[abell3]

agree with all except maybe 3000 acres. Yes giant farm is the best way to accomplish what you are speaking of but certain farms with certain layout and other factors can accomplish similar things. Example: Higgins Illinois farm is 100 acres. He's shot 3 200s on it now? Well, it's on an island and outside influences have been mitigated. The guy with 3000 acres is doing the same thing is a different way.... mitigating outside influences. Both may be as equally as rare.

Agree. Higgins farm works for many reason. Been trying to find a farm in similar situation in Iowa for years now..

 

[abell3]

IOWAQDM…. I agree with a lot of this. Perhaps most of your analysis and even the parts I don’t agree With - well done & shouldn’t be dismissed. A few comments….
1) guys that are serious hunters, managers, pass young deer, want a balanced age class, want older bucks “own the table” …. I disagree with that. Maybe the ones with 1,000++ acres. Which is maybe .001% of this group. The rest: own very small tracts, own nothing & hunt by permission or maybe even hunt hard on public land…. There’s a huge group of “serious hunters” that spend the most $, expend the most effort & understand whitetail management at a high level. I was a kid hunting permission that wanted to hunt mature deer…. I didn’t have a voice at the table. I was ignored. At least in MI, other states or even what has changed in iowa. What happens to those same guys “that run the table” that only have “40 acres” & things change so their hunting goes from great to “Eah, not good” in 10-15 years?!? Where has their voice been elevated to equal standing as the “angry farmers that want em all dead”. Or “we’re the group that wants all these new weapons & technologies”. Their group did have representation from the IBA & that was about it. Until 3-4 years ago when hunters finally added to that and said “sorry- we’re sick of being steamrolled!!! No more ruining our state!!! STOP!!!!!” & finally they fought back. So, now, ya- they do have a seat at the table. They absolutely don’t own the table because if they did- they wouldn’t need to be working so hard to fix our states issues. The dude with “80 acres” used to have mature bucks (I was that guy!!!!). Now…. It’s a fraction of what it was. “Well leave food, do this, do that”. Which I agree- works & is great. But…. When your fences are now stacked with people that can use every method known to man “it’s legal!!!” - you can’t control your 80 acres anymore. Or even a few hundred. A lot of these areas have been ruined. Regulations are the ONLY thing that will help everyone have a better quality system across the average landscapes.
2) population fixes all…. It doesn’t. Go look at MO, IL, MI, OH…. They have regions the population has exploded & they can’t get it down. Few will shoot does. Right across border from me is N mo… way more deer & does. Way less mature bucks than iowa. Huge difference!!!! Cause they relentlessly shoot every good racked buck they see!!! 2 bucks, OTC tags & rifles in middle of rut. There’s more good land, more deer & less people in N MO 15 miles from me…. & the mature bucks are a tiny fraction of what is across line in iowa. Regulations define this, period.
3) anyone who says “one buck doesn’t make things better” With all due respect…. Non-sense. Indiana took 5-7 years to go from #18 to #4 in B&C. That’s all one buck. Maybe less deer got shot in addition to 1 buck. & in fact- the second they went to one buck- they did shoot less deer. So ya, pop went up. It absolutely is what blew up IN. Same with OH still being good (with its problems) and KS (with its problems). ONE Buck blows up age class & balance. The BULLY BUCKS Is the only argument against it. But A) most guys in even iowa aren’t shooting bully bucks, they top grade AS IT IS NOW B) we do it in iowa or KS the exact same way….. prioritize it and bring kids, tag one yourself, bring a buddy, on & on. Bully bucks are no issue in any state if you prioritize it.
4) to add to above… THE #’s…. “It’s only 37 less bucks killed per county” or whatever figure we want to say…. Fine. But…. That’s 37 x 100=3,700. Our Buck Harvest is like 45,000. That’s still almost 10%!!!!! That’s not NOTHING. That’s a lot more. & now, say you went to one buck…. Now u shoot 3,700 less just on taking those out. Add to it!!!!!!….. no doubt in my mind, 3,700 x 2 or x3 now get passed & live because “oh man, I think I’ll be picky now”. Let’s say x2 (and yes, it will save piles of bucks from dudes passing!!!!!!! Exactly what happened in IN when changed)…. “Oh, now it saved 3,700 + 3,700x2=11,100 bucks!!!!!” 11,100 more bucks not shot - EVERY YEAR (25% of the buck harvest) that also COMPOUNDS fast!!!!!! That is a HUGE enhancement to the age class & balance. Not to mention alleviating some access issues and the mad drive for anyone with a few dollars to lock more land up and buy more. “Because I need to own the table”. It will stop that need & rush. & there’s deep pocketed dudes right now “if this gets worse, I’m just gonna lock more up”. One buck solves so many issues. Not saying we have to do it. Not saying it will get changed. But- to dismiss it and not acknowledge the massive success it brings states would not be sound logic. & yes, of course we are all on the same page of recovering these populations & letting things heal from ehd & fixing some other common sense stuff - like late shed buck season. Etc.


Great points & posts. I do agree with vast majority of most statements. Just some details that need more critical thinking IMHO. Happy new year!!!

Once you start looking into the data on one buck states statistics it’s clear where the pendulum swings.

 

[DMarley83]

Totally lost in the "data" is how many bucks would not be shot because folks are holding out because that in their ONE tag. That point has been noted repeatedly and is cited repeatedly from hunters in one buck states but seemingly intentionally ignored by those against it. This is not an issue about saving 200 bucks. That's a disingenuous argument.

In regard to cell cameras, again, tons of examples cited of folks "getting a picture" and going in after them (often a genetically gifted 2-4 year old). Thousands of social media posts to that affect. Tons of stories on this forum to that affect. That is not "the boogeymen that some want to blame", its concrete real-world examples on repeat. So, what's the real motivation in saying cell cameras have zero affect when it is refuted by thousands of real word examples?

Any argument, on any topic, in any walk of life, loses credence when spoken in absolutes. There is not ONLY one thing that would help improve things.

I 100% agree that cell cameras and regular trail cameras do contribute to high grading with regard to knowing they are there and being put on the target list. But it still comes down to the guy managing to decide if that deer gets shot if or when the deer presents an opportunity.

I also 100% agree that can be a deadly October tactic. But you typically need a cold front to get a mature buck on his feet before end of shooting time in October. You also have to have the ability to be off work to utilize that weather front correct? So if the cold front is coming on Tuesday and the temperatures are going back up to normal by Thursday are you taking off Tuesday and Wednesday just in case you get a picture of him heading to bed Tuesday or Wednesday morning? My point is most guys don’t have the flexibility to hunt any day and every day. If I saw that cold front coming and had the flexibility to be able to hunt it, I could easily slip in and check regular trial cameras on that plot or several different plots for that matter between 10:00 AM and noon. Then be back in the box blind I think is the best option by 3:00 that afternoon. Same end result. But guys that have that flexibility I bet are less than 1% of the licensed tag holders in Iowa.

The same guy that puts in the all the time and work into creating the bedding area, plants a green food source right next to it, sets up the box blind and creates undetectable entry and exit into the box blind is likely going to hunt that October cold front with or without a cell camera picture of his target buck if his schedule allows. Correct? Why is that? Because a guy with that kind of attention to detail is going to know how that cold front will affect buck movement and will more than likely accomplish the same end result. That is wrapping his tag around his target bucks antler.

Just stop and think about what puts that deer in front of that box blind and ultimately leads to his demise. It has nothing to do with the cell camera. It is due to close desirable bedding location, next to a preferred food source and the cold front that gets him on the move before end of shooting time. Now take away his ability to smell you with the box blind and ask yourself the following questions…Did the close bedding kill him? Did the food plot kill him? Did the weather front kill him? Did the box blind kill him? Does the cell camera really even matter at this point in this equation? Why does everyone want to demonize the cell camera? I don’t think it’s even worth thinking about because the same information can be obtained with a regular trail camera as I pointed out. I also think it is dead last in the list of factors that led to the deers ultimate demise.

As I have mentioned in other posts, the number one benefit of cell cameras in my opinion is they have been a huge deterrent for guys that would trespass through your property. This typically occurred during the gun seasons and shed season. Prior to cell cameras becoming widely used guys would throw on a face mask/neck gator and go anywhere they wanted. They had zero worries about being caught because by the time you checked your regular trail camera they were long gone and good luck catching them. Now with cell cameras they know they can’t even get back to the road without the owner or the game warden beating them there and having their picture on their phone to identify them. Making cell cameras have a delay of 12, 24, 48 hours or even banning them will take that deterrent away.

My thoughts are…I would rather loose a top end buck to a neighbor that puts in time, money and effort into the deer herd that uses cell cameras, versus loosing him to 10 guys who push through my property and the neighbors without permission.

I agree on a lot of your points however there are at least 3 I believe you to be dead wrong.
These opinions are strickly based on my personal experiences.

1- cell cams are 1,000 times more affective than you are saying.

2- Straight walls have probably increased my gun hunting success by at least 500%. I'd assume that this is a common thread throughout a majority of hunters. A lot bigger deal than Your saying.

3. I do agree with you in the fact that I dont think 1 buck tag is necessary nor do I really want that. However you scenarios equating to saving 200 bucks is extremely inaccurate and misleading. You break down the buck kills and divide them by all Iowa counties however id say a majority of counties north of I 80 have about 30% of the population/ kills as the southern. ( exclude river counties Mississippi/missouri) Not saying your point is not valid however your #s are way off.

- raise population ( a rising tide raises all boats) - adjust doe quotas

- anything we can agree on to make killing the whitetail a little tougher is going to help. Start small and try to build on.

- unity throughout our community is very important!

What is the next step?

Talk is cheap,
How do we move forward?

 

[hillrunner]

EHD decimation? Im not familiar with local dynamics up there.

Yes, extreme NW was hit very hard last year. This is not a high population area to begin with

 

[Daver]

Agree. Higgins farm works for many reason. Been trying to find a farm in similar situation in Iowa for years now..

You and everyone else. For those that understand how/why that farm "works" like it does though, it greatly aids the understanding of the dynamics that we are discussing.

FWIW, Don was "losing" bucks to hunters on a neighboring farm who were much less choosy as to which bucks to harvest...until he was able to buy it a couple of years ago.

While he has really improved the habitat there, and even then, it is not a big place, and provides plenty of high quality food...it is really the management of that place that leads to the giants. In a form..."regulations"...even as they are self regulated.

 

[abell3]

You and everyone else. For those that understand how/why that farm "works" like it does though, it greatly aids the understanding of the dynamics that we are discussing.

FWIW, Don was "losing" bucks to hunters on a neighboring farm who were much less choosy as to which bucks to harvest...until he was able to buy it a couple of years ago.

While he has really improved the habitat there, and even then, it is not a big place, and provides plenty of high quality food...it is really the management of that place that leads to the giants. In a form..."regulations"...even as they are self regulated.

It's a unique situation and farm layout. You're spot on. Which is why I stated what I did in my earlier post. You need to own the dirt to be the most successful. Don was losing bucks to a neighbor and he was able to buy out the neighbor. Problem solved. This unfortunately, seems to be the best way to solve the issue. Which many cannot afford to do! Doing the land management and TSI and food plot all accounts to his success. But above all, him being able to purchase more ground and keep the deer protected is most impactful. It's awesome to see how self regulation ( regardless of what his state of Illinois is doing) has resulted in the quality of whitetail that farm can grow. Discipline is a value lost in many. With a little discipline great things can happen.

 

[AU91]

It's a unique situation and farm layout. You're spot on. Which is why I stated what I did in my earlier post. You need to own the dirt to be the most successful. Don was losing bucks to a neighbor and he was able to buy out the neighbor. Problem solved. This unfortunately, seems to be the best way to solve the issue. Which many cannot afford to do! Doing the land management and TSI and food plot all accounts to his success. But above all, him being able to purchase more ground and keep the deer protected is most impactful. It's awesome to see how self regulation ( regardless of what his state of Illinois is doing) has resulted in the quality of whitetail that farm can grow. Discipline is a value lost in many. With a little discipline great things can happen.

No doubt Don has a very well managed and laid out farm and I’ve learned a lot listening to his podcasts and whitetail master academy content but the fact that nearly 25% of the perimeter is high fenced loses the plot for me. Having the only neighboring hunting pressure blocked off by a high fence certainly blurs a line of fair chase and is most certainly a very significant reason he is able to get deer to the age class he does

 

[northcedar]

Where does he high fence? Along the north?

 

[AU91]

Where does he high fence? Along the north?

Tbh I’m not sure. I have just listened to several podcasts where he has discussed it in depth. Said he had a neighbor who was consistently letting people hunt and shoot deer so he fenced it off. And the 25% number is straight from his mouth as well

 

[Daver]

No doubt Don has a very well managed and laid out farm and I’ve learned a lot listening to his podcasts and whitetail master academy content but the fact that nearly 25% of the perimeter is high fenced loses the plot for me. Having the only neighboring hunting pressure blocked off by a high fence certainly blurs a line of fair chase and is most certainly a very significant reason he is able to get deer to the age class he does

Are you sure that he has high fence on 25%? My understanding is that it is considerably less than that and was installed to thwart one small adjacent landowner from letting dogs run free in his yard that then went on into Don's sanctuary.

 

[Daver]

Tbh I’m not sure. I have just listened to several podcasts where he has discussed it in depth. Said he had a neighbor who was consistently letting people hunt and shoot deer so he fenced it off. And the 25% number is straight from his mouth as well

I think it might be 25% of the north boundary. I have been on his farm, around the whole perimeter except for the north line, and did not see any high fence on the boundaries and I saw a lot of the boundaries.

 

[abell3]

No doubt Don has a very well managed and laid out farm and I’ve learned a lot listening to his podcasts and whitetail master academy content but the fact that nearly 25% of the perimeter is high fenced loses the plot for me. Having the only neighboring hunting pressure blocked off by a high fence certainly blurs a line of fair chase and is most certainly a very significant reason he is able to get deer to the age class he does

I hear what you're saying. Being a landowner myself I understand the reasoning. A lot of time and money put into managing the farm. When a neighbor doesn't have the same discipline that you have I can see coming to that conclusion. I know Don tried several different times to talk to the owner and even tried leasing that specific neighbors piece with no luck. Neighbor wouldn't reason with him. I have a neighbor who doesn't have the discipline so I'd be lying if the thought didn't cross my mind. However, it feels awfully wrong and something I couldn't do. I know several in my area who have put up high fences. The times of putting up with undiscipline neighbors are dwindling away. Wild to even type. Guys that put hundred of thousands of dollars heck millions of dollars into a property aren't going to let undiscipline neighbors ruin their investment.

 

[AU91]

I think it might be 25% of the north boundary. I have been on his farm, around the whole perimeter except for the north line, and did not see any high fence on the boundaries and I saw a lot of the boundaries.

he said on a podcast 1-2 years ago that he got on onyx and measured the exact amount that was fenced and it was around 20%. I know for sure the entire north boundary of his original 40 is fenced off as I just went back and found the chasing giants podcast where he discussed that. The percentage has probably dropped a bit over the last year or so since he has continued to add additional acreage

 

[AU91]

I hear what you're saying. Being a landowner myself I understand the reasoning. A lot of time and money put into managing the farm. When a neighbor doesn't have the same discipline that you have I can see coming to that conclusion. I know Don tried several different times to talk to the owner and even tried leasing that specific neighbors piece with no luck. Neighbor wouldn't reason with him. I have a neighbor who doesn't have the discipline so I'd be lying if the thought didn't cross my mind. However, it feels awfully wrong and something I couldn't do. I know several in my area who have put up high fences. The times of putting up with undiscipline neighbors are dwindling away. Wild to even type. Guys that put hundred of thousands of dollars heck millions of dollars into a property aren't going to let undiscipline neighbors ruin their investment.

oh I for sure understand his reasoning and get where he is coming from. I have an 80 acre parcel myself with a couple of neighbors that have much different harvest goals than myself. But IMO any fence restricting deer movement from leaving a property in a particular direction is some level of non fair chase hunt. Would it make my hunting better if I put a fence up in those spots? Absolutely. But it takes away from the ethics/purity of the hunt considerably

 

[Stoney]

I can relate to how someone might want to put up a boundary fence on a small portion of their farm.