dbltree
Super Moderator
Keep us posted on what you think of the Falcata Mark...:way:
Keep us posted on what you think of the Falcata Mark...:way:
RockChucker30
New Member
dbltree,
I'm still mulling over an alfalfa plot, and have done a little digging. I asked a local farmer about alfalfa, and he said every field planted in that area had been wiped out by deer. One guy put a web wire fence on top of a web wire fence to keep them out, and they still got it. Do you think the regular alfalfa would survive that kind of grazing? Would the falcata do better? Or would this just be an expensive failure?
I'm still mulling over an alfalfa plot, and have done a little digging. I asked a local farmer about alfalfa, and he said every field planted in that area had been wiped out by deer. One guy put a web wire fence on top of a web wire fence to keep them out, and they still got it. Do you think the regular alfalfa would survive that kind of grazing? Would the falcata do better? Or would this just be an expensive failure?
dbltree
Super Moderator
Wow! I can't imagine deer "wiping out" alfalfa!
I have extremely high deer densities and they can't even phaze the alfalfa...so it just doesn't make sense to me?
Are they "killig" when it's a new seeding? If so I would seed it with oats at 100-120#'s per acre to "feed" the deer while the alfalfa is becoming established.
Frankly I'd have to see it to believe it because alfalfa is a very aggressive fast growing plant.
The reason I don't reccomend alfalfa to the average plotter is because it simply grows to fast and gets to tall unless you can bale it. Falcata doesn't appear to get quite as tall and I think it flowers later allowing for the "one cut" rather then 3-4 for regular alfalfa.
Let me ask you this...what are you planting in your plots now? Are deer "killing" your current plots?
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Almost HAS to be something else that is stopping the alfalfa beyond the deer. JNRBRONC could be on to something with the soil question. Of ANYTHING you could plant out there, alfalfa has to be in the top range for inability of deer to destroy it. Unless you're planting like 1/2 an acre or something. If it's 2-3 acres or more, I think it would be almost impossible. Has to be more to it?!!?
RockChucker30
New Member
Soils are silty loam, and well drained. I pulled two soil samples this year, one 5.5pH the other 6.0. In the early part of last century there were phosphate mines all over that area, so phosphorus never has to be added, and potassium rarely. I had one soil sample with 109 lbs/acre phosphorus, the other had 1775.
Not sure if they were killing it when young, or grazing so hard it just didn't make hay. I asked my cousin (the farmer) if he would cut and bale it if we needed him to, and he said he would love to but that we probably wouldn't need to cut it even if we did get a stand.
It suprised me to hear that alfalfa gets wiped out, but after speaking to some of the guys at church (they're all 60+, have farmed their entire lives, and grew up in this area) that was the consensus.
Maybe they do mean that it gets grazed so hard that it won't make a hay crop. That would be FINE by me!
Not sure if they were killing it when young, or grazing so hard it just didn't make hay. I asked my cousin (the farmer) if he would cut and bale it if we needed him to, and he said he would love to but that we probably wouldn't need to cut it even if we did get a stand.
It suprised me to hear that alfalfa gets wiped out, but after speaking to some of the guys at church (they're all 60+, have farmed their entire lives, and grew up in this area) that was the consensus.
Maybe they do mean that it gets grazed so hard that it won't make a hay crop. That would be FINE by me!
dbltree
Super Moderator
I have seen places with a 100 deer per square mile that could cause severe crop loss (alfalfa) but they still could never destroy it.
You'll need to raise the PH but otherwise alfalfa does well on loam or sandy loam soils and it planted with a good nurse crop of oats should do just fine.
I'm still curious what if anything you are planting now?
RockChucker30
New Member
dbltree,
I just started habitat management this year. I hinge cut a ton of trees during the winter, girdled a lot more in the beginning stages of a TSI project, and planted 3.5 acres of buckwheat this spring. The buckwheat is amazing stuff. It's doing VERY well. I plan on coming back with a mix of clover and rye in those plots, and perhaps starting a rye/AWP plot. I'm also planning to sow around 5 acres of rye into standing beans. This fall I plan to plant 20 or 30 hybrid oaks and start a plum thicket. I'll also broadcast 1 or 2 acres of CIR switch this winter, and continue the hinge cutting and TSI.
The amazing thing is that I didn't know squat about habitat management until I started reading this site and the qdma site back in the winter. I can't emphasize enough how helpful the knowledge here is to beginners.
I just started habitat management this year. I hinge cut a ton of trees during the winter, girdled a lot more in the beginning stages of a TSI project, and planted 3.5 acres of buckwheat this spring. The buckwheat is amazing stuff. It's doing VERY well. I plan on coming back with a mix of clover and rye in those plots, and perhaps starting a rye/AWP plot. I'm also planning to sow around 5 acres of rye into standing beans. This fall I plan to plant 20 or 30 hybrid oaks and start a plum thicket. I'll also broadcast 1 or 2 acres of CIR switch this winter, and continue the hinge cutting and TSI.
The amazing thing is that I didn't know squat about habitat management until I started reading this site and the qdma site back in the winter. I can't emphasize enough how helpful the knowledge here is to beginners.
dbltree
Super Moderator
Sounds like you have a great habitat program going on there! You understand why I as about what else your planting?
If you can grow almost any other crop without deer wiping it out (such as beans) then alfalfa will be no problem.
If they don't murder clover for instance alfalfa will produce even more forage, so it I were you (considering the high cost of alfalfa seed) I would test various food plots first.
Rye and clover are great food sources to start out with and they can take a hammering by deer and survive.
I would encourage you to see what happens with those and let us know what you think and how deer react to them...
If you can grow almost any other crop without deer wiping it out (such as beans) then alfalfa will be no problem.
If they don't murder clover for instance alfalfa will produce even more forage, so it I were you (considering the high cost of alfalfa seed) I would test various food plots first.
Rye and clover are great food sources to start out with and they can take a hammering by deer and survive.
I would encourage you to see what happens with those and let us know what you think and how deer react to them...
whitetail fanatic
Member
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but RockChucker30, you need to get your pH up to at least 6.8 (7.0 is better) before even trying to plant alfalfa.
With all the hype over the years about planting white clover for deer, we tried many kinds of white clover plots without much luck. The deer would use our fall and winter plots a ton, but hardly touch the different white clover varieties. Our neighbors have lots of alfalfa and they would always be feeding on that. As soon as we started planting alfalfa, the deer were hammering it! White clover could not compare to the attraction of alfalfa, even the special "deer white clover" varieties. We have had great luck with the whitetail institute's alfa-rack. We wanted just pure alfalfa, so I contacted them and was able to get just the pure alfalfa seed without any clover or chicory like they sell it normally. I think there are 3 alfalfa varieties they use in their alfa-rack plus product. If anyone else has tried alfa-rack from the whitetail institute and has been able to compare it's attraction to other varieties of alfalfa, I would be very interested to know if there are any others that are just as or more attractive. I'm afraid to try any other alfalfa varieties because this has worked so well, but please leave a post in this thread if anyone knows of any alfalfa variety that deer seem to prefer more than others.
In our area, there are well over 100 deer per square mile, probably closer to 150 per square mile, and deer can't come close to keeping our alfalfa "mowed". On our 190 acres we have about 10 acres of food plots, and right now because of crop rotations (everything else will be corn, rape and oats this year) we only have one small 1/2 acre plot of alfalfa and I've already mowed it 2 times. I mow it when it gets to about 12 inches tall, down to about 4" with a finish mower that does not leave a "windrow" of cuttings. From September through March we can drive the roads between ours and two other neighbor's properties, which totals around 700 acres (that includes our 190), and count 150 deer at times. A square mile is 640 acres, so like I said, it's probably closer to 150 deer per square mile. And yes, our buck to doe ratio is tight because we don't shoot young bucks. We are going to start increasing our doe harvest this year. I think it would be impossible for deer to destroy alfalfa unless you had only one small 1/2 acre plot and well over 100 deer per square mile with absolutely no other crops in the area for deer to "spread out" their feeding on. I don't think there are many, if any, areas of Iowa without agriculture, so that problem sounds very weird to me too.
With all the hype over the years about planting white clover for deer, we tried many kinds of white clover plots without much luck. The deer would use our fall and winter plots a ton, but hardly touch the different white clover varieties. Our neighbors have lots of alfalfa and they would always be feeding on that. As soon as we started planting alfalfa, the deer were hammering it! White clover could not compare to the attraction of alfalfa, even the special "deer white clover" varieties. We have had great luck with the whitetail institute's alfa-rack. We wanted just pure alfalfa, so I contacted them and was able to get just the pure alfalfa seed without any clover or chicory like they sell it normally. I think there are 3 alfalfa varieties they use in their alfa-rack plus product. If anyone else has tried alfa-rack from the whitetail institute and has been able to compare it's attraction to other varieties of alfalfa, I would be very interested to know if there are any others that are just as or more attractive. I'm afraid to try any other alfalfa varieties because this has worked so well, but please leave a post in this thread if anyone knows of any alfalfa variety that deer seem to prefer more than others.
In our area, there are well over 100 deer per square mile, probably closer to 150 per square mile, and deer can't come close to keeping our alfalfa "mowed". On our 190 acres we have about 10 acres of food plots, and right now because of crop rotations (everything else will be corn, rape and oats this year) we only have one small 1/2 acre plot of alfalfa and I've already mowed it 2 times. I mow it when it gets to about 12 inches tall, down to about 4" with a finish mower that does not leave a "windrow" of cuttings. From September through March we can drive the roads between ours and two other neighbor's properties, which totals around 700 acres (that includes our 190), and count 150 deer at times. A square mile is 640 acres, so like I said, it's probably closer to 150 deer per square mile. And yes, our buck to doe ratio is tight because we don't shoot young bucks. We are going to start increasing our doe harvest this year. I think it would be impossible for deer to destroy alfalfa unless you had only one small 1/2 acre plot and well over 100 deer per square mile with absolutely no other crops in the area for deer to "spread out" their feeding on. I don't think there are many, if any, areas of Iowa without agriculture, so that problem sounds very weird to me too.
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hillrunner
PMA Member
150 deer per square mile? Wow, I can't even imagine that!
I,m curious what the difference is between the alfa rack and any regular brand of alfalfa one buys from the elevator or seed dealer.Does it produce less more or the same tonnage?
I have never hunted over an alfalfa that deer didn't like, it is by far my favorite food source for hunting deer.
I,m curious what the difference is between the alfa rack and any regular brand of alfalfa one buys from the elevator or seed dealer.Does it produce less more or the same tonnage?
I have never hunted over an alfalfa that deer didn't like, it is by far my favorite food source for hunting deer.
whitetail fanatic
Member
I think the alfa-rack is more of a grazing type alfalfa that is supposed to stay tender longer.
Sorry this might be a little off the topic of alfalfa, but yeah, there's a lot of deer around our area, but they stick pretty tight to the 700 or so acres I talked about because we are one of the rare areas of southwest Wisconsin where the deer herd hasn't been aggressively harvested the last 5 to 10 years because of us few landowners. Also, the two other neighbor have lots of prime alfalfa, plus corn and soybeans, but that's typical of most parts of SW Wisconsin. The natural habitat in our area is as good as I've ever seen and I've hunted different parts of Iowa and Illinois too for comparison, which has excellent habitat in most areas. We have tons of excellent natural browse and natural food sources with tons of brushy edge habitat and overgrown fields. Our woods has been selectively cut and there is thick undergrowth almost everywhere. We also have several large areas where the timber was thinned very aggresively and it's like a jungle. You can go 1 mile in any direction from our area and it's about 30 to 50 deer per square mile, which is average for southwest Wisconsin in recent years. We are going to start harvesting does more aggressively in our area this year to eventually get the numbers down to around 80 to 100 per square mile. We backed off on our doe harvest the last few years because our DNR went to war with the deer herd because of CWD, which is crazy. You have to live in an area with CWD to understand, but almost everyone thinks CWD is nothing to worry about and it's been here forever. Just ask anyone from Colorado or Wyoming where it's been for over 30 years and they will tell you pretty much the same thing. They learned years ago that you can't reduce the occurence rate of CWD by thinning the herd. Game managers from western states laugh at what the Wisconsin DNR has done. Our DNR makes it sound like CWD just got here in 2002 and it's going to wipe out our state's deer herd. That's funny because in a lot of areas of the CWD zone there are more deer now than there were in 2002 when the DNR set out to ereadicate our deer herd by creating 7 month long hunting seasons and unlimited tags and no bag limit. Again, sorry for my off topic rambling, but I just had to respond to the last post by hillrunner.
Sorry this might be a little off the topic of alfalfa, but yeah, there's a lot of deer around our area, but they stick pretty tight to the 700 or so acres I talked about because we are one of the rare areas of southwest Wisconsin where the deer herd hasn't been aggressively harvested the last 5 to 10 years because of us few landowners. Also, the two other neighbor have lots of prime alfalfa, plus corn and soybeans, but that's typical of most parts of SW Wisconsin. The natural habitat in our area is as good as I've ever seen and I've hunted different parts of Iowa and Illinois too for comparison, which has excellent habitat in most areas. We have tons of excellent natural browse and natural food sources with tons of brushy edge habitat and overgrown fields. Our woods has been selectively cut and there is thick undergrowth almost everywhere. We also have several large areas where the timber was thinned very aggresively and it's like a jungle. You can go 1 mile in any direction from our area and it's about 30 to 50 deer per square mile, which is average for southwest Wisconsin in recent years. We are going to start harvesting does more aggressively in our area this year to eventually get the numbers down to around 80 to 100 per square mile. We backed off on our doe harvest the last few years because our DNR went to war with the deer herd because of CWD, which is crazy. You have to live in an area with CWD to understand, but almost everyone thinks CWD is nothing to worry about and it's been here forever. Just ask anyone from Colorado or Wyoming where it's been for over 30 years and they will tell you pretty much the same thing. They learned years ago that you can't reduce the occurence rate of CWD by thinning the herd. Game managers from western states laugh at what the Wisconsin DNR has done. Our DNR makes it sound like CWD just got here in 2002 and it's going to wipe out our state's deer herd. That's funny because in a lot of areas of the CWD zone there are more deer now than there were in 2002 when the DNR set out to ereadicate our deer herd by creating 7 month long hunting seasons and unlimited tags and no bag limit. Again, sorry for my off topic rambling, but I just had to respond to the last post by hillrunner.
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dbltree
Super Moderator
I have planted alfarack side by side against regular alfalfa grown for hay and deer seem to care less either way.
Welters sells some good grazing alfalfas also but so far the Siberian Falcata seems to be a better alternitive.
Alfalfa seed is expensive regardless of where you buy it and so far I have never seen an alfalfa that deer didn't love!
Can't keep em out of mine I know that!
Welters sells some good grazing alfalfas also but so far the Siberian Falcata seems to be a better alternitive.
Alfalfa seed is expensive regardless of where you buy it and so far I have never seen an alfalfa that deer didn't love!
Can't keep em out of mine I know that!
RockChucker30
New Member
Fanatic,
10-4 on the soil pH. If I decide to plant alfalfa, it'll be fall of next year. Buckwheat in the plot now, lime, disc BW under, roundup, rye in the fall, disc under in the spring, soil test again/ lime if needed, RR soybeans spring/summer (or BW preceeded and followed by roundup), THEN alfalfa next fall.
That should leave me with very clean and well amended soil prior to alfalfa.
(Would have already limed this year prior to planting BW, but for lack of a water pump the F250 hasn't been available to pull the ~5000 lb. lime cart.)
10-4 on the soil pH. If I decide to plant alfalfa, it'll be fall of next year. Buckwheat in the plot now, lime, disc BW under, roundup, rye in the fall, disc under in the spring, soil test again/ lime if needed, RR soybeans spring/summer (or BW preceeded and followed by roundup), THEN alfalfa next fall.
That should leave me with very clean and well amended soil prior to alfalfa.
(Would have already limed this year prior to planting BW, but for lack of a water pump the F250 hasn't been available to pull the ~5000 lb. lime cart.)
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dbltree
Super Moderator
Just remember...you need to allow a bare minimum of 6-8 weeks before killing frost for alfalfa to become established or it can winter kill the first year.
I like to seed in late July or early August to give it plenty of time to become well established and get some root reserves built up.
Otherwise I like your plan....:way:
RockChucker30
New Member
dlbtree,
Thanks. I'd already read that in this thread. Average first frost date is around the 15th of October, so Planting in mid to late August would give me 6-8 weeks.
I only hear about planting a pure stand in the fall...would it hurt anything to plant a nurse crop of oats in the fall?
Thanks. I'd already read that in this thread. Average first frost date is around the 15th of October, so Planting in mid to late August would give me 6-8 weeks.
I only hear about planting a pure stand in the fall...would it hurt anything to plant a nurse crop of oats in the fall?
dbltree
Super Moderator
Absolutely not! I almost always add oats to give the deer some forage and keep them from foraging on the baby alfalfa so much.
It will freeze off eventually leaving a nice killed mulch thru the winter...:way:
whitetail fanatic
Member
How does alfalfa compare to white clover in areas with less than total sunlight? We have a few small plots that are in clearings in the woods where we have white clover planted, but I would plant them with alfalfa if you think it would do as good as the clover in the partial shade.
thanks!
thanks!