Bees

[Gladiator]

Howdy everyone - some of you know I don't do much with foodplots/etc, as it's not an option right now on the farm I hunt, so I don't know a whole lot about when/where/what to plant etc. I do understand the fact people use a lot of chemicals to control that stuff.

That being said, I'll jump to the point - my wife and I have been doing quite a bit of reading and research regarding eating more whole foods and have tried to go as organic as possible due to some research. We've done quite a bit of research on chemicals sprayed on crops, etc. and the effects it has on our wildlife, ground, and us as humans...

In no way am I trying to play the "holier than thou" game here - just want to generate some discussion with some research to see what thoughts are....

Is it just me, or is anyone else a little concerned about the use of chemicals and GMO's on our food products?

The following article is the reason for this post - it's the straw that broke the camel's back - do we have any clue what would happen to us if the bees were destroyed? Here is a great example of us KNOWING what is going on with the honeybees, KNOWING what WILL happen, and doing NOTHING about it...

http://livefreelivenatural.com/honeybee-death-rate-currently-high-survival-species-crucial-food/

I understand research can go both ways, but there is tons of research regarding glyphosate and pregnancy problems...

We have tons of illnesses that are preventable and treatable by eating the right foods... Same goes for foods laden with chemically treated foods and illnesses. The fact other countries ban our chemicals and fine companies for using them shows the power of our lobby system doesn't it???

Have we forgone the fact that we have a future to look after for our kids and grandkids, etc and done our world an injustice at the name of "greed" and "ease" or the mighty dollar?

I'm not trying to change the world with a post or stir up bad emotions. People have to do what they have to do, but what steps can we take to make this place more sustainable.....or to protect the bees - because if they die, we die. Or what can we do to become more organic in nature...

Any thoughts or is it a lost cause? Thanks for the discussion...

 

[NWBuck]

I have little doubt that some of the chemicals used in agriculture have some short and/or long term ill effects. A couple of points I'd make, however…

1) The chemical density in the average row crop field would pale in comparison to the density in the average suburbanites lawn. But it sure looks nice…

2) I have a friend who farms organic not far from where I live. He freely admits that in its' current form, there's no chance organic farming can feed the world. So if our current large scale/chemical practices were reduced or eliminated, we'd have an entirely new set of problems, not the least of which would be hunger.

3) While on a recent trip to Nashville, we visited a farmer's market that included a lot of organic products. It was really neat, and we purchased several items. It was, however, EXTREMELY expensive! One item we passed on was a beautiful looking package of rib eyes that was only grass fed, no chemicals, antibiotics, etc, etc. $19.50/lb.

Just my 2 cents…

NWBuck

 

[Daver]

Gladiator - definitely a worthy topic and I too would like to understand all of this better, so I don't unwittingly contribute to any problems that may be out there.

One of my farm neighbors is a beekeeper and I have learned some things from him over time and have even maintained some plantings on my place to give "his" bees some other options besides what he keeps on his own place.

 

[Gladiator]

3) While on a recent trip to Nashville, we visited a farmer's market that included a lot of organic products. It was really neat, and we purchased several items. It was, however, EXTREMELY expensive! One item we passed on was a beautiful looking package of rib eyes that was only grass fed, no chemicals, antibiotics, etc, etc. $19.50/lb.

NWBuck

We just got a 1/3 beef from people who grew a cow - 90 some pounds of burger and all the roasts, ribeyes/t-bones for about $5.00/lb total for everything. Pretty good deal - just have to look around.

If we start voting with our money, people can start listening??

Definitely great points NW - yes, all things that come up for sure...things I definitely understand. We can't just say "screw you" to all the people counting on food. But what that ends up doing is causing a health care problem like we have today....

Nutrient devoid foods = nutrient devoid bodies = nutrient devoid people = nutrient devoid health problems.

I'd be happy to share some research on food dye's and chemicals other countries have banned...

Here is a site that has a meal plan of real food for someone who would be on food stamps:

http://www.100daysofrealfood.com/our-free-meal-plans/

As far as levels - here is some research on glyphosate:

Studies Find Glyphosate Causes Infertility and Organ Damage

In a previous post, I talked about some of the harms from glyphosate, including infertility and miscarriage in farm animals fed with glyphosate-contaminated food; reduction if available minerals due to the chelating function of glyphosate; development of glyphosate-resistant weeds due to overuse of the herbicide; combined with an adjuvant, glyphosate has demonstrated organ and systemic damage; and pregnant women exposed to glyphosate may have a 400% increased risk of having babies with developmental malformations such as microcephaly, anencephaly, cleft palate, cranial malformations, etc. [source and source]
Monsanto Claims That Glyphosate is Safe

Before we list more harmful effects of glyphosate, I want to mention that Monsanto claimed that its glyphosate brand Roundup was “‘safer than table salt’ and ‘practically nontoxic’ to mammals, birds and fish” until 1996, when Dennis C. Vacco, the Attorney General of New York, ordered the company to pull the ads. From the beginning Monsanto has marketed Roundup as “environmentally friendly” and “biodegradable.” [source]
New Data About Harmful Effects Caused by Glyphosate/Roundup

Glyphosate Damages Red Blood Cells

Glyphosate and Roundup (Glyphosate plus Adjuvants) Are Extremely Toxic

Glyphosate Environmental Toxicity Underestimated

A study published in Ecotoxicology put “serious doubt on glyphosate’s classification as environmentally safe.” The analysis of toxicity on water fleas, “a widely accepted model for environmental toxicity,” found glyphosate to be toxic a very low levels “well within the levels expected to be found in the environment.” This study concludes that the toxicity of Roundup has been underestimated and that “current European Commission and US EPA toxicity classification of these chemicals need to be revised.”
Glyphosate Kills Beneficial Gut Bacteria

Glyphosate is Estrogenic and Causes Proliferation of Breast Cancer Cells

Glyphosate Application Linked to Deaths from Chronic Kidney Disease

Again, thanks for the thoughts NW - things we all need to understand, but maybe a question would be to think about the next steps we could take to start eliminating some of these things instead of "taking it" from big companies that will do anything to keep their products on our American shelves - even if it isn't what is best for us.

 

[Mike311]

If you want to go organic, not immunize your kids, ride your bike to work then by all means do it. Just don't tell the rest of us who choose to live differently that we should live like you. I don't care if people choose this life style but many that do seem to have this mind set that there is no other way and we all should be living this way.

My question to you is wether or not you eat the deer you hunt as they feed on GMO grains dripping with Round Up?

I am all for "saving the bees" though.

 

[Gladiator]

Mike - careful making judgments. I'm not telling you to change your life - just asking what we can do to make things better and if anyone out there feels similar to me. I don't expect anyone to change their life on account of me.

However, if we know certain things are dooming our land, then we should look at if that is the best practice.

For what it's worth, I just had Carlos O'Kelley's for lunch. And it was good. :way: I still like to eat certain foods, but I also understand the risks with those...and do it in moderation.

Those that know me know I don't try to stir the pot - only ask questions that better myself and hopefully others.

No, I don't ride my bike to work....I like to run, but 20 miles is too far for me each day.

I give the deer I shoot each year to a family that needs to meat for the winter. I do eat some of dad's that they get during shotgun.

Thanks for your comments - you're right, some people have that mind set. That's not me.

 

[HorseDoctor]

Anyone catch John Stossel's show "Food Fights" on Fox last week? His learned guests very systematically punched holes in a lot of the claims made by proponents of "organic", "natural", non-GMO & other food arguments. Very thought provoking, IF & only IF one listened with an open mind on the subject. Problem is that whenever this type of subject comes up it is mostly fueled by folks who have already made up their minds on the subject. A bit (huge bit) like any discussion on "gun control". It's hard to discuss anything with anyone who has already made up their mind about the subject at hand.

I would caution anyone who "researches" this topic to pay very close attention to not only the quantity of the information that you find but also (and more importantly) the quality of the information and it's relevance to the conclusions that are drawn. I use quotes on the term research because searching for information is not the same as and should not be confused with actual scientific research. And not all scientific research results in relevant conclusions. e.g. The "sources" listed in some of the glyphosate toxicity statements involve research done on African Clawed Toads" and the "common water flea". Extrapolating any risk to humans from those studies is a bit of a stretch. If you really want to search out valuable useable information then search for a "meta-analysis" of the available data for a subject, not some random piece of work that draws dubious conclusions based on questionable data.

Certainly some chemicals can be dangerous but if we are being poisoned by all of them (& vaccines etc. etc.) why has the average life expectancy of people in developed nations risen nearly 40 years in the past century.

I raise bees, because we like the way honey tastes, not because I think it's healthier than processed sugar. I eat that too. I also eat a lot of venison in spite of the fact that's it's fed heavily on the GMO soybeans that I plant for them. I don't know if the rye in my Templeton is organic or not but I do know I'm healthier if I'm a little careful about how much of all of the above I partake in. People might be healthier if they paid closer attention to the volume of what they eat instead of to the volume of what is written about what they eat.

Though I'm sure it appears otherwise; I'm not really trying to be a smart ash or pick a fight. I just don't buy into all the fear mongering that is available on this and so many, many more topics. It is a good topic for discussion but discussion based on careful consideration of solid science.

Thus endith the rant...

 

[Hardwood11]

I know a guy here in MN that raises bees for honey. He told me bees are an indication of what could happen. Kind of canary in the coalmine theory. He is a smart man and I trust his word. It is a very big concern!

 

[NWBuck]

We just got a 1/3 beef from people who grew a cow - 90 some pounds of burger and all the roasts, ribeyes/t-bones for about $5.00/lb total for everything.

In today's market, that's a heck of a deal…organic or not!

NWBuck

 

[Gladiator]

Problem is that whenever this type of subject comes up it is mostly fueled by folks who have already made up their minds on the subject.

True. I agree - but also have an open mind...so I like to read things like you posted. It generates good discussion in my biology classroom. :way:

I would caution anyone who "researches" this topic to pay very close attention to not only the quantity of the information that you find but also (and more importantly) the quality of the information and it's relevance to the conclusions that are drawn....The "sources" listed in some of the glyphosate toxicity statements involve research done on African Clawed Toads" and the "common water flea".

Lots of my research has been done on mammals only. And by the 3rd generation, most, if not all, uterine linings had been destroyed and they were not able to reproduce at all...only by the 3rd generation. Only thing changed in the diet was Glyphosate. Good questions raised by that.

Certainly some chemicals can be dangerous but if we are being poisoned by all of them (& vaccines etc. etc.) why has the average life expectancy of people in developed nations risen nearly 40 years in the past century.

I think you know the answer to that - medication and increased health care.....along with the costs. Life expectancy actually dropped in 2010 and life expectancy for non-educated is dropping as well. Why? I suspect it's due to them not having enough money to afford the life-prolonging band-aids put on them from the lifestyles we live. If we want to fix healthcare, we need to look at our lifestyles. 90% of all cancers are chronic and developed over the course of our lifetime. It's an evil disease and one I pray I never get...I find myself praying for others with this tragedy more often than not...

People might be healthier if they paid closer attention to the volume of what they eat instead of to the volume of what is written about what they eat.

Agree completely...I like this thought. However, let me throw in a variable that people can't deny - that people can eat the same quantity of food, but simply change their diet and somehow, magically lose 65 pounds... People can change their diet and somehow their cholesterol, blood sugar, and such continues to drop??

Though I'm sure it appears otherwise; I'm not really trying to be a smart ash or pick a fight...It is a good topic for discussion but discussion based on careful consideration of solid science.

Thank you for your discussion. Excellent points to keep in mind....especially from a doctor. Much appreciated..

Back to the bees - if we know what is killing them, how in the world can we look at this and keep doing what we've been doing??

On another note, I'd like to know start up costs on these things if I get a place outside of town. I'd love to start up a colony and get fresh honey from them in the summer.

 

[Gladiator]

In today's market, that's a heck of a deal…organic or not!

NWBuck

We were fortunate - I'll let you know what the next one costs....I'm sure it will be much much more expensive.

 

[HorseDoctor]

Back to the bees - if we know what is killing them, how in the world can we look at this and keep doing what we've been doing??

On another note, I'd like to know start up costs on these things if I get a place outside of town. I'd love to start up a colony and get fresh honey from them in the summer.

Problem is we really don't yet know for sure what is killing them. Lots of theories & possibilities but if anything concrete has been determined, I haven't heard about it.

As to starting up a colony or two (or 10) you better get into it for the fun of it because you can spend a lot of money on hives, clothing, equipment and bees and still end up with not much if any honey some years. It's kinda like the cost of the "free meat" I get from hunting. It's lots cheaper to buy your local honey from a farmers market. If you really want to get into it, check with Tim Wilbanks at Kalona Honey Company.com. He'll be able to help get you started. Good guy & an IW member but doesn't get on line much. Claims it's too addicting. Not sure how he would ever get that idea...

 

[Shovelbuck]

If you have Netflix, I suggest watching "More Than Honey" a documentary on the disappearance on bees.

 

[JNRBRONC]

As to starting up a colony or two (or 10) you better get into it for the fun of it because you can spend a lot of money on hives, clothing, equipment and bees and still end up with not much if any honey some years. It's kinda like the cost of the "free meat" I get from hunting. It's lots cheaper to buy your local honey from a farmers market.

Heed this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I had hives for a few years. Lot of work, lost a lot of hives to who knows what, price of bee "packages" tripled, decided to support the local commercial guy.

I still have a lot of equipment for when I retire and have more time. Yeah, right, who am I fooling.

 

[iabwhntr]

Problem is we really don't yet know for sure what is killing them. Lots of theories & possibilities but if anything concrete has been determined, I haven't heard about it.

Imidacloprid. Its a gp insecticide used by professionals in the green industry. Its also sold OTC in just about every bug killer spray to home owners.
There is something called the Iowa Bee Law. If a licensed applicator was using imidacloprid, they had to contact all apiarys within 2 miles 24 hrs before application. I don't think this happened as often as it should have.
Also, as with a lot of things, if the chemical didn't kill the bees outright, it would weaken them enough that something else would.

 

[letemgrow]

I'm not sure what is killing the bees, but when I look around, there is not much for them to be pollinating in the first place on most farms.

We have decided to grow organic in the garden, plant apple trees, blueberries, aronia, elderberry etc etc without any spraying, growing wildflowers/sunflowers solely for the bees, and installed a rain garden to collect for water loving insects/birds and to replenish ground water.

Even went to a hand held "Tiller" for more exercise while working in the garden.

Why? Does not make much sense to me to let all that water go down the storm sewer and away from town as quickly as possible. Its usually gone in a day percolating down through the soil. Have tons of honey bees, bumble bees and many other bees (not sure what they are) visit those sunflowers every summer. Its crazy having 4-5 types of bees on one sunflower at a time.

Why not have landscape shrubs that actually produce fruit while also being attractive to the eye and pollinators?

 

[Forestryguy]

"I'm not sure what is killing the bees, but when I look around, there is not much for them to be pollinating in the first place on most farms.

We have decided to grow organic in the garden, plant apple trees, blueberries, aronia, elderberry etc etc without any spraying, growing wildflowers/sunflowers solely for the bees, and installed a rain garden to collect for water loving insects/birds and to replenish ground water.

Even went to a hand held "Tiller" for more exercise while working in the garden.

Why? Does not make much sense to me to let all that water go down the storm sewer and away from town as quickly as possible. Its usually gone in a day percolating down through the soil. Have tons of honey bees, bumble bees and many other bees (not sure what they are) visit those sunflowers every summer. Its crazy having 4-5 types of bees on one sunflower at a time.

Why not have landscape shrubs that actually produce fruit while also being attractive to the eye and pollinators? "

I am trying to do the same thing. Careful with collecting rain water. People have been found guilty for doing so.

My girlfriend and I have been buying all of our meat from a local farm that is grass fed/organic only. I like the taste better than store bought stuff. I do like to eat the deer I shoot and know that they are eating GMO/glyphosate crops. Maybe if I am ever able to buy enough land I can have all organic food plots.

I do not see why we have to be the country to supply the world with grain. I do not think that that was the intention of any of the original developers of modern grains. I think countries should grow their own food. If they can not grow corn or rice, then yams or other grains should be their staples. If you teach someone to grow their own food, they will eat forever, if you give them a hand out they eat till the hand out runs out. I would much rather see the small farms come back that grow for the local communities and sell any extra on the markets. I know this will not happen anytime soon, everyone is trying to make a living and the more a farmer can grow the more they make.

 

[letemgrow]

I am trying to do the same thing. Careful with collecting rain water. People have been found guilty for doing so.

Agreed on growing what is suitable for any particular place.

My town encourages rain barrels/rain gardens. They offer cost share for those willing to apply to put in said practices at their residence.

 

[Gladiator]

My town encourages rain barrels/rain gardens. They offer cost share for those willing to apply to put in said practices at their residence.

I think I'm going to look into this - my neighbor has one. Great ideas - thanks for sharing everyone.

By the PM's I've received, it seems I'm not the only one who shares this view and is concerned about our nation from this standpoint.

I just talked to our secretary and she is a bee keeper. At least the govt is giving back subsidies to those losing hives to keep them in it. There is information out there that if it weren't for bee keepers, we wouldn't have many bees at all.

Ditches are now being planted in flowers instead of being mowed. Set aside needs to not just be grass from here on out....

Phil - do you know what kind of flowers/bushes I can plant around my house to make it more bee friendly? You mentioned sunflowers?

 

[letemgrow]

Ditches are now being planted in flowers instead of being mowed. Set aside needs to not just be grass from here on out....

Phil - do you know what kind of flowers/bushes I can plant around my house to make it more bee friendly? You mentioned sunflowers?

Bout time they came to their senses instead of using gas and $$ to mow grass

There are a host of native wildflowers to use. I try to avoid the store bought ones as some of those are modified for flowering/eye appeal purposes. I'm not sure some of those attract pollinators like they should and/or even produce that much nectar/pollen to begin with as nature intended.

What I put around my house were some perennial, native sunflowers. Showy/prairie sunflower is a good one for me. Canada milk vetch is another good wildflower that attracts hummingbirds, native honeysuckle vines, button bush and eastern wahoo at this point in time.

Watch the finch swarm show up on those sunflowers, it is something every fall. I put in swamp milkweed for the butterflies in the rain garden along with some asters so we can watch the monarchs on their southerly retreat. Be neat to show the kids how it all works and comes full circle.