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Blog Discussion #2

Wayne- you have some very interesting points. there was research done up in British Columbia regarding harvesting of trophy bighron sheep pre-rut or during the rut. i wish i could find my e-copy of the journal article to post, but it suggested that taking those "trophies" was proving detrimental to the overall population by allowing "lesser quality" (as we judge them) rams to breed and pass on their genes. in essence, hunters are (or at least have the ability) to push the natural evolution of these animals towards smaller antlers or horns. there is anectdotal evidence that this happened in Africa back when every hunter wanted a huge set of tusks from an elephant. the only ones left either had small tusks or no tusks and those were the bulls passing on their genes. although i haven't had the chance to come back home and hunt deer in Iowa yet, one thing i've learned from hunting with my brother-in-law in south Texas is that you have to cull lesser quality bucks if you don't want them passing on their genes, especially if you want that higher size class. one of my brothers-in-law shot a huge bodied (5.5 year old+) deer this past december that had nothing more than little (but wide inside spread) forks with 2 broken brow tines. he was a perfect example of what should be removed from the gene pool. i've finally learned how to differentiate a 4.5 year old from a 5.5 year old based on body characters and you are correct in that there are 4.5 year olds that are never going to get any bettter anlters based on their genetics (most likely). although i'm more of a meat hunter (we have limited seasons and opportunities here in AZ), i do want my trophy on the wall and if you are going to manage for those size classes, you have to weed out the "lesser quality" bucks before they pass on their genes. as a professional wildlife biologist, i'd be happy to talk to your landowner next time i'm back and try to explain population health and management, etc. if i find that "trophy ram" article, i'll send it up to you. it upset several hunters, but science is science and sound data are hard to argue against.
 
Thank you AZhunter and great info. I would be interested in reading the literature that you mentioned! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif
 
i can't find the exact article, but i'm not done searching. i did find a closely related article by the same auther from Journal of Wildlife Management on the effects of population density related to horn development but it mentions hunters pursuing trophies and the younger rams ending up with decreased base girth. i'll send it to you privately and keep searching for the other article. and thanks for the tip on this website and your blog. feel free to pick what's left of my brain for professional insight on wildlife biology and conservation.
 
I have yet to be convinced how this whole genetics and quality management can really effect a free flowing fluid population such as a wild deer herd. The first thing is that deer move and during the rut they move extensively. So with out seeing it happen there is no way anyone can tell which bucks are breeding which does, so in the whole scheme of things how is killing a buck with less than desirable horns going to change anything? You must realize that the genetic make up that produced that buck in the first place has to still be in the herd, especially if both the parents are still there. Any one with breeding knowledge knows that with a very controlled selection process that the male genes can be passed and tracked with in most species. Horses and cattle being those that extensive records are kept on both males and females to produce certain desirable traits most commonly. With deer I feel that at least 50 percent, and probably more, of the genetics come from the does and we have no way of effectually "culling" those. So even if we kill the "cull buck", his mother and sisters are still out there with the potential to produce either a superior or another inferior buck, even when breed by the biggest baddest 200 inch buck in the country. Also even if the "cull buck" doesn't have genetics to produce massive horns, he might have many other qualities that are more important to the herd. Things such as body size, intelligence, the ability to produce more buck fawns, or even just knowing how to cross a highway with out being killed. There are many things that are more important than horn size to the herd.

If genetics were a major factor to deer herd make up why is it that other places haven't been successful in manipulating their herd genetics by introducing other strains. I can't remember where, but it might have been in Deer and Deer Hunting magazine, that I read about experiments in Texas and other Southern States where they tried to import Midwest bucks into their local herds. They did notice some improvement for a while but after a few generations that improvement disappeared. If genetics were the major key we give it credit for, then why hasn't every Texas fenced ranch like the King Ranch, imported enough Iowa deer to grow some deer that are bigger that a German Shepard?

Another issue I have is with population numbers. Here in Iowa we have been trying to, and have significantly, reduce population by harvesting more and more does each year. While the over all population has dropped so has the buck harvest and, I think, the buck population in general. Again different things I have read indicate that as we try to manipulate the population by killing more does, nature compensates by upping the birth rates and upping the number of doe fawns. In a declining population many of this years doe fawns who are just a few months old will breed successfully and older does will produce more twins and triplets with a very large majority being does rather than bucks. Look back at all those fetus pictures posted about the late antlerless season and i think you will find 3 or 4 does to bucks there. While a one to one or one to two, buck to doe ratio might be beneficial to us as hunters, it is not to deer as a herd. Another example is the coyote population. With abundant food supplies it is virtually impossible to kill out or even really reduce a coyote population. As more animals are killed the litter numbers go up and even in certain situations there might be more than one litter per year and the numbers of females go up significantly as long as food and habitat are sufficient.

My personal belief is that we need to get back to a more natural deer production method. With all of our QDM, food plots, supplemental minerals and such, I believe that we are actually diminishing the personal value of trophy deer. Think about it, in 1954, when Iowa had it's first deer season, almost any buck was a trophy and a 130 or 140 was a monster. What we have done is make many hunters look at these bucks as trash or "culls" if they aren't 150 or 170s and there are a bunch more of them because we are almost trying to raise them like Herefords. The one thing that has changed is that now we keep looking for a way to raise bigger bucks through technology and I question where it will all end. I very much dislike the way all this trophy deer thing has been commercialized, and see it as totally the reason we are having to battle so hard on the Non-resident hunter and landowner issue.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> With a population this high, is it possible that these bucks are just tired of all the activity. When one deer spooks, the whole timber swirls with deer, most not knowing where to run. Maybe as the bucks get older they get tired of so many deer. Just like grandparents being ready to send the grandkids home after a babysitting weekend, maybe these older deer are just ready for some space to themselves.</div></div> this is my bet. Though once in awhile you will have one that will stick around and has the right personality. Given the choice if a mature buck can find a safe, quiet spot, with lower densities that satisfies it's basic needs he will prefer it . This year I had problems with some of my best sets because of the flooding it changed where the mature bucks usually bed. May this be the case?
 
I agree with almost everything Bowmaker says. Maybe culling is effective in other areas if there are very low populations, but it simply has no effect in Iowa. At most, we have two buck tags. Even if culling were an effective management tool, most people are horrible at judging which deer should be removed. And even if you decided that you were going to use both your buck tags, and both tags of all your friends and family to "cull" male deer for a year, you'll end up with a population of mostly does that still have the same genetics as all their brothers and fathers.
 
Great points gentlemen. As apposed to culling to improve genetics, is it possible that by not removing older bucks that don't have the genetic potential, those bucks are responsible for running off the less dominant 3.5 or older bucks with great potential? In that case wouln't using one or both of your buck tags on these older bucks that have less rack potential make sense in order to allow these "great genetic, younger deer to stick around? Just some thoughts to expand the discussion further.

Thanks again for your participation.
 
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