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Can Mature Bucks learn to Reason?

DOR

Life Member
So I was chatting with THA4 after reading his link here. http://allen.bowhuntingroad.com/2011/10/24/the-droppy-saga-continues/

I told him that I thought for the most part that after a mature buck is bumped from his core bedroom (especially after being shot at and tracked into his bedroom and subsequently bumped from it)you may get one more chance to kill him there that year if your lucky.

He said that there had already been combines through his area and likened the intrusion to harvesting in terms of how a deer see it. His reason? Animals lack the ability to reason.

So, my question is just that, can animals reason or at a minimum can a Mature Buck learn to reason?

From wiki-
"Reason is a term that refers to the capacity human beings have to make sense of things, to establish and verify facts, and to change or justify practices, institutions and beliefs.[1] It is closely associated with such characteristically human activities as philosophy, science, language, mathematics and art, and is normally considered to be a definitive characteristic of human nature.[2] The concept of reason is sometimes referred to as rationality and sometimes as discursive reason, in opposition to "intuitive reason".[3]

Reason or "reasoning" is associated with thinking, cognition, and intellect. Reason, like habit or intuition, is one of the ways by which thinking comes from one idea to a related idea. For example, it is the means by which rational beings understand themselves to think about cause and effect, truth and falsehood, and what is good or bad.
In contrast to reason as an abstract noun, a reason is a consideration which explains or justifies some event, phenomenon or behaviour.[4] The ways in which human beings reason through argument are the subject of inquiries in the field of logic.

Reason is closely identified with the ability to self-consciously change beliefs, attitudes, traditions, and institutions, and therefore with the capacity for freedom and self-determination.[5]

Psychologists and cognitive scientists have attempted to study and explain how people reason, e.g. which cognitive and neural processes are engaged, and how cultural factors affect the inferences that people draw. The field of automated reasoning studies how reasoning may or may not be modeled computationally. Animal psychology considers the controversial question of whether animals can reason."
 
Does Thomas like pizza?

I told him that I thought for the most part that after a mature buck is bumped from his core bedroom (especially after being shot at and tracked into his bedroom and subsequently bumped from it)you may get one more chance to kill him there that year if your lucky
:way:
 
I don't know if this qualifies as reasoning or not, but I can remember right away 2 distinct times where I was able to watch a mature buck essentially "survey" the scene in front of him and pause for a period of several minutes and then do the opposite of what the rest of the deer were doing. Both times those bucks survived as a result.

It sure appeared to me that they were thinking/reasoning. But the next thing you know the same buck will be standing in a cut bean field at noon with a doe bedded 40 feet from the highway, so maybe they reason some of the time and go with their instincts the rest of the time.
 
They can learn, which is different than instinctive behavior. You are born with instinct, any behavior that develops and changes over time is learned. Reasoning is different than both learning and instinct however. I have also watched deer on drives that have stopped for a long time before deciding which direction to go as well. They must be thinking about something, hmm where should I go in order to survive?
Why is that older bucks almost always enter the field after all other deer? Is their any logic involved in that behavior? Just like most animals as they mature some deer learn for experience and can avoid making the same mistakes again. Think of all the dumb stuff you did or thought in middles school (like a 1.5 year old buck in rut). Some of stopped learned our lessons and stopped doing that stuff, the rest ended up dead or in jail.
I feel that deer can reason to some extent, but like humans some are more intelligent than others. When deer adjust daily routines based on encounters with humans, predators, available food aren't they then reasoning?
 
[SIGH] So glad to see you ACTUALLY posted this....

Since you did, I'll explain my opinion on the matter. Perhaps its not an opinion, but reality... :grin: ;)

I do not feel animals of any species contain the ability to reason. Running into a human or any predator entices instinct to kick in. If a mature whitetail has numerous run ins with a human, human acts (combines, vehicles, and other farming practices) I don't think they can tell the difference between a hunter or farmer. They just know the human figure, scent, etc. represents danger/predation.

Can a deer tell the difference between a flash trail camera and lightning? I don't think so, therefore I don't believe flash cameras spook whitetails, never have never will... a loud shutter maybe, but not a flash of light

Are mature whitetails elusive? Absolutely, are they professionals at remaining unseen? For sure! but I do think hunters often give them more credit than they are due. They are only animals no matter how you slice it. Maybe an over pressured buck might take up residence in a slightly different location, but it would have to take a very high amount of pressure to make a buck spend time away from where he is most comfortable. I just dont think they will just up and leave after a few encounters.

Can a deer tell the difference between a hunter and a farmer? All they know is a human showed up. To them, whats the difference between a field full of harvest vehicles hauling grain that pushes them out of their summertime haunts and a hunter that drives his truck in to check cameras? To me its no different. If a buck smells a hunter from a particular location a time or two, will he not come by that spot every again? Who knows... I have seen them get stupid and break all the rules they set forth when the rut dominates their senses.

I guess all I'm saying is they demonstrate intellect, but only to a point. I am not sure if a deer gets shot at, or even hit from a particular stand that he won't ever come by there again. it can and does happen, but again no matter how you slice it, they are animals and only contain the ability to make decisions based on instinct. I wouldn't call those educated decisions, rather they have been conditioned to hunter carelessness....

They are still and only animals no matter how you cut it and are not capable of reason....

:grin:
 
Being self aware involves alot. Thinking about what you will do tomarrow or yesterday. Being crytical of yourself. Changing an attitude you had to something else.Wondering about your death. Feeling sorry for yourself or for others and having mercy on others. Only humans do these.
 
I do believe that deer get very aware of their surroundings. Just this weekend I had two bucks come right out in the field we were hunting with a combine running not more than 125 yards behind us. They could care less about the combine. They knew there was no danger there. I have seen deer many times out in the fields with the tractors working.

Coyotes are the craziest when it comes to tractors in the fields. Those things literally come running to the tractor in the spring and the fall when my ole man is out working the field. He has had them follow him all around the field and he already killed on this fall from the field. Coyotes have learned that a tractor means dinner in our area.

Personally, I feel that coyotes are 10 times more wary than a deer yet they do this every year and the deer don't mind coming out in the field either if a tracor is out there.

Another time I used to hunt in the city. I thought for sure those deer would be stupid in regards to smelling me. I had a school full of children that bordered the property I was hunting. I would watch 20 deer or so less than 100 yards away from the school feeding when the school kids were out playing and the wind was blowing at them. As soon as those deer cut my scent they knew something was wrong and would clear the field. It is like they could tell that my scent shouldn't have been in that area.

I do think deer learn but I don't think they can really reason.
 
I do not feel that they have the ability to reason. But, their ability to learn, along with their ability to adapt, make them appear to be able to reason.
When you witness things like them crawling on their belly, or backing out of a dangerous situation for no apparent reason, it makes a person wonder.
I am more a believer in the 6th sense theory. I believe that some deer, especially big bucks, develop this sixth sense through experiences early in life. Just a ramble.
 
I've seen deer and yotes and even turkeys ignore tractors and combines. But step out on the platform of the combine and they spook. That's understandable. But if a pickup pulls into the field, even at tractor speed, they're gone right now, without anyone stepping out and showing a human form. Gotta be some learning going on from seeing pickups with hunters all season.
 
To answer the OP's question. Yes, I believe that an animal can reason.

I believe there are some animals out there, that choose to ignore some things, that make it look like they dont have the ability to reason.

I think some deer are smarter than others, which can also effect the ability to reason.

You may have a deer that busts you in the same stand, every time they see you in it, but then you can catch them on camera hanging around that same stand while you aren't in it.
 
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Not saying yes or no...but in des moines, there is old doe with a limp that looks both ways before she crosses the street. :D Sounds reasonable enough.
 
Let me put it this way. If I call to my Jagt terrier "Shorty" while I'm out in the yard he comes running to me with his stubby tail wagging. If I call to Shorty while standing beside his kennel, he knows he is going to get penned up while I go hunting and he does not want to come to me. He is but a mere animal but yet reacts differently to me depending on where I am standing in my yard. I can almost see him reasoning as he stands just out of range for me to grab him! :D I think critters are much smarter than we give them credit most times.
 
great example Skully. here's another example of an animal reasoning...
my dog knows that when i leave in the morning, he is getting locked in his kennel. the last thing i do before i leave every day is brush my teeth. he follows me up and down the steps all morning, but while i'm brushing my teeth, he hides under the covers of my bed and then stays there until i usually have to call for him to come downstairs to lock him in his kennel. seems like reasoning to me...
 
Cause and affect. My dog does it all the time. She knows,,just when I change my routine in the morning wether she is going somewhere with me or not. Obviously she has studied my actions. When I do this or that,,this happens. The tooth brushing bit happens too. She sleeps on the bed until I brush my teeth. When I do, she immediately jumps down to her night time bed.
 
ya, but is all that habit and instinct or actual reason? I still don't buy animals can reason.... never will...

:grin:
 
T, I'll disagree with you on the fact that a deer doesn't know the difference between farm equipment doing work in the field or a truck driving though the field (If I read correctly, you said they feel the same about both?).

While running a combine, auger cart, or even pulling on NH3 in the fall, deer are not afraid of the equipment in the field. Now, throw a truck out there and no farm equipment, they head for the hills. I think that is more of a fact of deer learning that farm equipment is pretty much in the fields 10 months out of the year in Iowa. It that part of reasoning? I have no idea and don't care to learn whether it is or not.
 
Animals do not posess the ability to "reason." You either have it or you don't. Humans do, animials do not. One cannot "learn" to reason. It just doesn't work that way. Animals are instinctual and can learn from experiences but they have no knowledge of their own being. So, the older a deer gets, the more experiences it has and that directs its instincts and one could think that that deer is very smart but that's just a product of their experiences. JMO
 
Animals do not posess the ability to "reason." You either have it or you don't. Humans do, animials do not. One cannot "learn" to reason. It just doesn't work that way. Animals are instinctual and can learn from experiences but they have no knowledge of their own being. So, the older a deer gets, the more experiences it has and that directs its instincts and one could think that that deer is very smart but that's just a product of their experiences. JMO


Well stated.

However, the same could be said for some humans I encounter daily.:D I'm sure Skully's dog does more "reasoning" than many human animals.:D
 
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