Changing opinions on the amount of does to shoot…

[Rous14]

No reason for bucks to move much if you are overpopulated with does. Doe overpopulation also allows a lot more younger bucks to breed since most of the does come into heat all at once. The one argument I see against shooting does is the fighting/locked up and broken racks that result from all the fighting.

Back in the days of when we pretty much all agree was when the hunting was the best (2000’s up to 2010ish) there were way more does/deer in general. 40% more in many areas of the Midwest and there were bucks everywhere. And lots of really big ones. If they didn’t move much or were hard to see or kill as a result of too many does we wouldn’t all look back on it as the “golden years”.
I’ve also heard Tony Lapratt say that he feels he’s reducing the chances of the bucks he’s trying to move along to the next age group of wondering too far off his farm searching for the next doe to breed if he has lots of does on his place. Thought that was interesting and had some merit.
On your point about the young bucks breeding….is that a bad thing if you’re in an area with good genetics? In other words why does it matter if a buck w BC genetics breeds does at the age of 1 1/2 or 7 1/2? Genetics are the same either way.

 

[tall@wide]

Back in the days of when we pretty much all agree was when the hunting was the best (2000’s up to 2010ish) there were way more does/deer in general. 40% more in many areas of the Midwest and there were bucks everywhere. And lots of really big ones. If they didn’t move much or were hard to see or kill as a result of too many does we wouldn’t all look back on it as the “golden years”.
I’ve also heard Tony Lapratt say that he feels he’s reducing the chances of the bucks he’s trying to move along to the next age group of wondering too far off his farm searching for the next doe to breed if he has lots of does on his place. Thought that was interesting and had some merit.
On your point about the young bucks breeding….is that a bad thing if you’re in an area with good genetics? In other words why does it matter if a buck w BC genetics breeds does at the age of 1 1/2 or 7 1/2? Genetics are the same either way.

I can see some merit in too many does and bucks not moving off your farm. This should technically help keep better genetic 3–4-year-olds(roamers) from being shot. But if you have too any does, that means your neighbor does too. So, bucks may not leave their property much venturing to your farm either. Nature is set up for the most dominate bucks to breed does first but that doesn't always mean the highest scoring bucks breed. So, I agree and see nothing wrong with young bucks breeding in most situations.

 

[John Young]

I’ve never been a big doe hunter. But if the season is wrapping up and I haven’t scored on a mature buck(very selective) I will take a doe of the situation is right. I do agree the deer numbers are down quite a bit from the 90’s to early 2000’s. But your forgetting another aspect. They have added so many new seasons. Several early gun seasons and also allowing rifles now. I’m betting soon xbows will be legalized for everyone as well. It all has taken its toll. The abundance of mature deer is definitely on the decline. If you don’t own large tracts you’ve most likely noticed the same thing. Another thing I’ve noticed as well is it’s becoming common place for large tracts being broken up into 40’s and 80’s creating so much more hunting pressure. So I think it has a lot more to do things beyond doe harvest.

 

[Hardwood11]

I was in Iowa past two days, drove around and scouted. Lots of does with fawns . Rabbits everywhere!

That could mean coyote numbers are down !

 

[Daver]

FWIW...I am at my farm this weekend and there are does EVERYWHERE. Definitely going to be hammering them this fall.

 

[Jgamet]

I have a farm in northern Missouri and it's definitely a pocket-by-pocket case. In many areas, you can't get away with planting 2 acres or less of a soybean food plot for it gets mowed down before December rolls around. On my farm, the neighboring farmer has historically let the Amish come in after the season closed and shoot as many does (and I'm sure anything that's brown really) as they could. I can plant a 1 acre soybean plot that lasts the entire year, no problem!

The neighboring farm just this past year will no longer let the Amish come in post-season and hunt so I'm curious to see how this impacts the numbers. A mini case study if you will!

 

[sep0667]

Winke just had a video on youtube the other day about this exact topic. He says on his southern IA farm from his midwest whitetail days at one point they had the doe population so low there were 3 bucks for every doe. I think he said he estimated for every buck they shot they probably killed 30 does. Seems absoluetly crazy. He says for a while any doe that came in range was shot. In 2011 when he had that ratio I think he said there were like 10 or 11 170+ bucks on his farm. 2012 was wiped out by ehd. He says he didnt notice many bucks leaving, but rather they would just roam his property more during the rut. They wouldnt go seaching miles away, they live in their world and only know what they know. Of course he had a huge farm of nearly 1,000 acres so them staying on his property is like comparing apples to oranges when the average hunter is only on a small fraction of what he had.

He says with his new farm he plans to knock back the doe population, but maybe not quite as much as before.

 

[tall@wide]

Winke just had a video on youtube the other day about this exact topic. He says on his southern IA farm from his midwest whitetail days at one point they had the doe population so low there were 3 bucks for every doe. I think he said he estimated for every buck they shot they probably killed 30 does. Seems absoluetly crazy. He says for a while any doe that came in range was shot. In 2011 when he had that ratio I think he said there were like 10 or 11 170+ bucks on his farm. 2012 was wiped out by ehd. He says he didnt notice many bucks leaving, but rather they would just roam his property more during the rut. They wouldnt go seaching miles away, they live in their world and only know what they know. Of course he had a huge farm of nearly 1,000 acres so them staying on his property is like comparing apples to oranges when the average hunter is only on a small fraction of what he had.

He says with his new farm he plans to knock back the doe population, but maybe not quite as much as before.

If I remember correctly, when he was getting the ratio near 1 to 1, he was knocking down more giants than he normally did. Maybe a correlation.

 

[Rous14]

Just watched his video last night about it. Have watched his stuff for years and really like him and his content. Have learned a bunch from him. I don’t agree w his philosophy/opinion on the doe thing but that’s ok. That year he talked about having 10 plus bucks over 170 is just mind blowing. Doesn’t get any better than that.
What I thought was interesting and one of the reasons I disagree w his approach is that his farm after EHD struck was actually quite poor relative to how good it had been and he most likely never had fewer overall deer numbers on that farm than he did for those 5-8 years after the outbreak. If the philosophy of fewer deer was a factor in producing 10-11 giants in 2010 it seems as though in that 2015-2017 range his farm would have been insanely good again and it didn’t seem to be at all.
My belief is that if you have world class genetics you want as many bucks at the top of the funnel as possible. Has never made sense to me that if i wanted to increase the number of world class basketball players in the US that I’d tell Michael Jordan, Lebron, Kobe (rip), Shaq, Larry Bird etc to have 1 kid each instead of 20 each for lack of a better analogy haha.

 

[bigbuckhunter88]

We have primarily stopped shooting does on our farm quite a few years ago. We live in mostly ag country but do have a big chunk of timber on our property. Neighboring areas get hammered by multiple gun groups and deer would disperse and then numbers would be low. No data to back any of it up but I also think about that if there are plenty of does around, the bucks shouldn't leave for long and also other bucks should wind up here in November.

 

[Bassattackr]

Winke just had a video on youtube the other day about this exact topic. He says on his southern IA farm from his midwest whitetail days at one point they had the doe population so low there were 3 bucks for every doe. I think he said he estimated for every buck they shot they probably killed 30 does. Seems absoluetly crazy. He says for a while any doe that came in range was shot. In 2011 when he had that ratio I think he said there were like 10 or 11 170+ bucks on his farm. 2012 was wiped out by ehd. He says he didnt notice many bucks leaving, but rather they would just roam his property more during the rut. They wouldnt go seaching miles away, they live in their world and only know what they know. Of course he had a huge farm of nearly 1,000 acres so them staying on his property is like comparing apples to oranges when the average hunter is only on a small fraction of what he had.

He says with his new farm he plans to knock back the doe population, but maybe not quite as much as before.

That seems to be the overall trend. If you knock back the numbers too far in one direction, nature will correct itself for you.

 

[Sligh1]

That could mean coyote numbers are down !

YOU’RE WELCOME!!!!

Like the US military - our ammo supplies have been depleted we’ve shot so many coyotes!!!!

I have zero doubt the huge increase in coyote #’s in last 10 years has had a major impact on fawns & deer in general. If u go out & see lots of single does without fawns & notice a lot of coyotes…. Ding ding ding!!! I’ve seen neighborhoods (kansas it’s very prevalent) where no does are being shot and deer #’s are very low …. COYOTES!!!!!

My farm ….

 

[8bitnes]

Winke just had a video on youtube the other day about this exact topic. He says on his southern IA farm from his midwest whitetail days at one point they had the doe population so low there were 3 bucks for every doe. I think he said he estimated for every buck they shot they probably killed 30 does. Seems absoluetly crazy. He says for a while any doe that came in range was shot. In 2011 when he had that ratio I think he said there were like 10 or 11 170+ bucks on his farm. 2012 was wiped out by ehd. He says he didnt notice many bucks leaving, but rather they would just roam his property more during the rut. They wouldnt go seaching miles away, they live in their world and only know what they know. Of course he had a huge farm of nearly 1,000 acres so them staying on his property is like comparing apples to oranges when the average hunter is only on a small fraction of what he had.

He says with his new farm he plans to knock back the doe population, but maybe not quite as much as before.

Research shows that of you shoot a mature for before her buck fawn had weaned and left the herd, that buck will stay in the home range throughout its maturity. That could have been the case with the huge bachelor group he accumulated.

 

[Obsessed]

Research shows that of you shoot a mature for before her buck fawn had weaned and left the herd, that buck will stay in the home range throughout its maturity. That could have been the case with the huge bachelor group he accumulated.

I'd never heard this.

 

[Sligh1]

Research shows that of you shoot a mature for before her buck fawn had weaned and left the herd, that buck will stay in the home range throughout its maturity. That could have been the case with the huge bachelor group he accumulated.

That’s very interesting! U made me want to start another post later…. This was a big thing in early 2000’s. MOST times I saw this done or did it myself - it was in areas with lots of coyotes. I had to learn the hard way that fawns without mamas with high coyote #’s…. Didn’t go well.

 

[Obsessed]

So, for YEARS you all have been preaching that we need to knock our doe pops down in order to keep EHD from wiping out our overall deer herd pops, but it turns out EHD wipes out sparse deer pops just as much as it does robust deer pops? Is this true? Again, I go back to the 'eggs' analogy...

Personally, I like bucks to stick around and come in aggressive when I rattle and grunt during rut. When I'm in an area that I know has bucks, and I don't hear or see sparing action, and I can't pull them in all pissed off and looking for a fight, I have a pretty good idea that there are plenty of does to go around in that area. They don't need to fight to get a piece of tail because they're all getting laid as much as they want.

Outside of bully bucks, if I'm in an area where a twig snapping will bring the bucks in, and they're all busted up, then I know the doe pop is lacking. Same for areas that just don't have any bucks.

 

[Daver]

I don't remember the recommended higher doe harvest being related to EHD prevention...but I could be wrong about that. The doe reduction message was more about balancing the herd, staying within carrying capacity, etc, as I recall. In my mind, if you have an EHD outbreak at your place it is about the midges and ALL of the deer are susceptible to being infected...by the midges.

EHD is not passed from deer to deer, so the number of deer is essentially meaningless. Now then, CWD...there's where the number of deer present could influence things.

 

[Obsessed]

I don't remember the recommended higher doe harvest being related to EHD prevention...but I could be wrong about that. The doe reduction message was more about balancing the herd, staying within carrying capacity, etc, as I recall. In my mind, if you have an EHD outbreak at your place it is about the midges and ALL of the deer are susceptible to being infected...by the midges.

EHD is not passed from deer to deer, so the number of deer is essentially meaningless. Now then, CWD...there's where the number of deer present could influence things.

CWD as well, but disease in general. And, yes, the discussions have taken place. I agree, many conversations about maintaining the carrying capacity as well.

I swear there have been several discussions / comments on here about EHD being more devastating to large tight herds, as the midge flies would infect several deer at the same watering hole, at the same time, etc.

 

[Daver]

CWD as well, but disease in general. And, yes, the discussions have taken place. I agree, many conversations about maintaining the carrying capacity as well.

I swear there have been several discussions / comments on here about EHD being more devastating to large tight herds, as the midge flies would infect several deer at the same watering hole, at the same time, etc.

I don't see how higher, or lower, populations would be affected by something that is not passed from deer to deer. Whether there are a lot of them, or there are only a few...it's about the midges, not the number of deer. Killing does so as to prevent EHD would make no sense. Killing midges?? Now that might make a difference.

 

[Rous14]

I don't see how higher, or lower, populations would be affected by something that is not passed from deer to deer. Whether there are a lot of them, or there are only a few...it's about the midges, not the number of deer. Killing does so as to prevent EHD would make no sense. Killing midges?? Now that might make a difference.

Agreed. Don’t believe deer numbers have any impact on EHD transmission or severity.