Clover questions.

[stevep]

I've got an acre plot that I had planted to clover and winter rye last fall. Between the drought and the fact that I think I underseeded it, it's still got a LOT of bare dirt in it. I wanted to turn this acre into a white clover plot (and keep it that way for a few years). I was planning on frost seeding this weekend, but how much seed (pounds per acre) should I put down? I was going to put in some Alice White and some Durana.

Also, do I need to use innoculant on the coated seeds? The alice white that I got from Welters is coated (as is the Durana) does it need innoculant?

Thanks!

Steve

 

[LoessHillsArcher]

Did you see any clover sprout and grow last fall? It wouldn't have gotten too big I'm guessing. You could frost seed in a few lbs (guessing 4lbs an acre as cheap insurance) but I'm betting your fall planted clover will take off this spring

 

[stevep]

Did you see any clover sprout and grow last fall? It wouldn't have gotten too big I'm guessing. You could frost seed in a few lbs (guessing 4lbs an acre as cheap insurance) but I'm betting your fall planted clover will take off this spring

Yes, before the snow there were "baby clovers" all over the place. I think that last fall I planted the clover at the recommended "Dbltree" rate. It was the rye that I was short on.

Steve

 

[hoosierhunter]

IMO you can't put too much seed on a clover plot. We seed all our stuff at double the recommended rate. You want the clover to come in thick to choke out competition.

 

[Sligh1]

IMO you can't put too much seed on a clover plot. We seed all our stuff at double the recommended rate. You want the clover to come in thick to choke out competition.

Clover is absolutely the one thing I strongly encourage seeding at very high rates if a little extra $ isn't going to break you. Exactly right. I've never been able to put too much clover seed on and absolutely easy to put "not enough" on. Inoculation is good. Going to help you with Nitrogen creation from the clover.

 

[stevep]

Clover is absolutely the one thing I strongly encourage seeding at very high rates if a little extra $ isn't going to break you. Exactly right. I've never been able to put too much clover seed on and absolutely easy to put "not enough" on. Inoculation is good. Going to help you with Nitrogen creation from the clover.

But so what would a guess be as far as pounds per acre??? If I put 8 pounds of Alice White down on top of what I planted last year would that be too much or not enough?

Thanks.

Steve

 

[Sligh1]

But so what would a guess be as far as pounds per acre??? If I put 8 pounds of Alice White down on top of what I planted last year would that be too much or not enough?

Thanks.

Steve

Alice white at 8 lbs would be fine. That's also an aggressive clover so you'll be in great shape. I like mixing in a little bit of Alsike & red just in case soil types are advantageous to one of those BUT Alice is a great clover that grows anywhere. I know seeding rates call for less but I might do about 8-ish lbs of alice & add a couple lbs of red & alsike for a little variety.

 

[stevep]

Alice white at 8 lbs would be fine. That's also an aggressive clover so you'll be in great shape. I like mixing in a little bit of Alsike & red just in case soil types are advantageous to one of those BUT Alice is a great clover that grows anywhere. I know seeding rates call for less but I might do about 8-ish lbs of alice & add a couple lbs of red & alsike for a little variety.

Thanks. This forum has made a real difference in my plots. I appreciate all of you guys sharing your past experience and expertise.

Ready for it to warm up a bit!

 

[trev33]

With having a fall planted rye/clover plot, what is the best way and time to get rid of the rye so the clover can take off.

 

[Daver]

With having a fall planted rye/clover plot, what is the best way and time to get rid of the rye so the clover can take off.

Let the rye work for you in the very early spring as it will be the first thing that starts growing again here in about 3-5 weeks. Then once it gets a little taller, say in mid-to-late April on into early-May and the clover underneath is starting to come on...mow the rye at a height that you are cutting off the top of the rye plant but not so low that you are scalping your new clover.

That one mowing is usually enough to kill it and then voila...there's your clover and you should be pretty weed free. Depending on timing, rains, etc, you may want to mow the rye another time, but a little rogue rye in your clover field will not hurt a thing, as the rye will grow like crazy in May and June and then die in July.

I have also heard of others that advocate spraying the rye/clover field with a gly mix, which will kill the rye a lot faster than it will kill the clover. I have not done it that way myself, but I think it could work fine as long as you don't go too heavy with the gly and toast your new clover.

Lastly, something I have done several times now...just let it be. The rye will grow like crazy in May and June and will be 5' tall and thick, providing nesting and brooding cover and the die off in late July or so. Boom! there's the greenest, lushest clover left that you could find. The downside of this approach is that the clover is not so much of a food source during May, June and July as it otherwise could be. The upside is that it is no brainer easy and provides cover as mentioned above.

Nowadays, I usually split the difference and leave and acre or two to "run wild" and mow an acre or two so there is fresh clover somewhere on the farm too.

 

[stevep]

Let the rye work for you in the very early spring as it will be the first thing that starts growing again here in about 3-5 weeks. Then once it gets a little taller, say in mid-to-late April on into early-May and the clover underneath is starting to come on...mow the rye at a height that you are cutting off the top of the rye plant but not so low that you are scalping your new clover.

That one mowing is usually enough to kill it and then voila...there's your clover and you should be pretty weed free. Depending on timing, rains, etc, you may want to mow the rye another time, but a little rogue rye in your clover field will not hurt a thing, as the rye will grow like crazy in May and June and then die in July.

I have also heard of others that advocate spraying the rye/clover field with a gly mix, which will kill the rye a lot faster than it will kill the clover. I have not done it that way myself, but I think it could work fine as long as you don't go too heavy with the gly and toast your new clover.

Lastly, something I have done several times now...just let it be. The rye will grow like crazy in May and June and will be 5' tall and thick, providing nesting and brooding cover and the die off in late July or so. Boom! there's the greenest, lushest clover left that you could find. The downside of this approach is that the clover is not so much of a food source during May, June and July as it otherwise could be. The upside is that it is no brainer easy and provides cover as mentioned above.

Nowadays, I usually split the difference and leave and acre or two to "run wild" and mow an acre or two so there is fresh clover somewhere on the farm too.

So here's one other question based on all of this.... I have my "rye / clover" mix that according to the "recipe" I should throw some white clover, some berseem clover and some oats on this spring... correct? If I frost seed the white clover into it now, am I ok to run a drill or broadcast the oats and berseem clover in April, or will the white clover be high enough that it'll keep the oats and berseem from establishing????

Thanks.

 

[AIRASSAULT]

So here's one other question based on all of this.... I have my "rye / clover" mix that according to the "recipe" I should throw some white clover, some berseem clover and some oats on this spring... correct? If I frost seed the white clover into it now, am I ok to run a drill or broadcast the oats and berseem clover in April, or will the white clover be high enough that it'll keep the oats and berseem from establishing????

Thanks.

That oats recipe is what you follow your dead/bare brassica plot with in the spring, then you will till that under and plant it with the rye mix in September.. You don't need to do anything with your currently planted rye mix until what Daver said about mowing or spraying (be careful mowing during fawning season though). (unless you are wanting to frost seed bare spots with your white clover). After your rye is dead and clover flourishing, you will then till that portion under in July and plant that in the brassica mix... Keep alternating those two every year.

 

[stevep]

So on the portions that I currently have in the "rye / clover" mix, I can frost seed some extra white clover if I'd like, but other than that, just let them grow?

 

[AIRASSAULT]

So on the portions that I currently have in the "rye / clover" mix, I can frost seed some extra white clover if I'd like, but other than that, just let them grow?

Yep, then mow or kill off that rye in the spring. That will let the sunlight hit the clover underneath and it should explode. When you till under that clover before planting the brassica mix in late July, that 'green manure' will fix a lot of the nitrogen into the soil that you will need for the brassicas and all of the organic matter from the now dead rye will help retain soil moisture.

 

[Daver]

So on the portions that I currently have in the "rye / clover" mix, I can frost seed some extra white clover if I'd like, but other than that, just let them grow?

Airassault has already given you the same advice I would have, so no need to repeat that. But I will add this...if what you currently have in rye/clover now is something that you are going to tear up in late July/early August to plant to brassicas...then I personally would be less concerned about minor bare spots than if you planned to let this clover plot go on as clover plot for a few years.

If you do want to hit the bare spots though AND you will tear it up in August anyway...save yourself a couple of dollars and use red clover now, not white. Deer will eat both just fine. White is a better choice for an ongoing clover plot and usually requires less mowing to maintain it than red, but if this is what amounts to a temporary plot, I would use red.

Also, as Air said, the oats recipe is to follow last fall's brassica plot...that you may not even have since you are just starting out. BUT, berseem clover is not a good choice to frost seed with. That is a seed that needs to be planted/tilled, as does the oats.

 

[stevep]

Airassault has already given you the same advice I would have, so no need to repeat that. But I will add this...if what you currently have in rye/clover now is something that you are going to tear up in late July/early August to plant to brassicas...then I personally would be less concerned about minor bare spots than if you planned to let this clover plot go on as clover plot for a few years.

If you do want to hit the bare spots though AND you will tear it up in August anyway...save yourself a couple of dollars and use red clover now, not white. Deer will eat both just fine. White is a better choice for an ongoing clover plot and usually requires less mowing to maintain it than red, but if this is what amounts to a temporary plot, I would use red.

Also, as Air said, the oats recipe is to follow last fall's brassica plot...that you may not even have since you are just starting out. BUT, berseem clover is not a good choice to frost seed with. That is a seed that needs to be planted/tilled, as does the oats.

Got it. Thanks. I do have brassicas, and my plan was to wait until mid-April and disc them up, then go with the berseem and oats combo in the area where the brassicas were. That will be the area that I then rotate to Rye / Clover come this fall.

The area that I currently have in rye / clover WILL be torn up in late July / Early August for brassicas, so I'll be frost seeding a bit of white clover into that area just as a "bonus" since I've got the seed and figure it can't hurt.

I'm guessing that's the way to do the Dbltree rotation. Thanks for walking me through it.

Steve

 

[Daver]

Got it. Thanks. I do have brassicas, and my plan was to wait until mid-April and disc them up, then go with the berseem and oats combo in the area where the brassicas were. That will be the area that I then rotate to Rye / Clover come this fall.

The area that I currently have in rye / clover WILL be torn up in late July / Early August for brassicas, so I'll be frost seeding a bit of white clover into that area just as a "bonus" since I've got the seed and figure it can't hurt.

I'm guessing that's the way to do the Dbltree rotation. Thanks for walking me through it.

Steve

No problem, it takes a little while to get all of the moving parts down!

If you have extra white clover seed on hand AND you have a yard, waterway, grassy lane, etc. I would think of just frost seeding that extra clover over the grass that is there now. I have done that with some leftover seed a few times now and presto...I have a new mini-clover plot, as the clover will normally out compete whatever grass you have there now if you mow the grass at all.

You can't have too much food for these beasts!

 

[stevep]

No problem, it takes a little while to get all of the moving parts down!

If you have extra white clover seed on hand AND you have a yard, waterway, grassy lane, etc. I would think of just frost seeding that extra clover over the grass that is there now. I have done that with some leftover seed a few times now and presto...I have a new mini-clover plot, as the clover will normally out compete whatever grass you have there now if you mow the grass at all.

You can't have too much food for these beasts!

Thanks Daver. How does white clover do in semi-shaded areas?

Steve

 

[Daver]

Thanks Daver. How does white clover do in semi-shaded areas?

Steve

Fair to good I would say, clover is about the most shade tolerant thing I can think of that is commonly used for food plots. But all plants do better with the right amount of sunshine.

A logging road that is "over storied" by large trees is probably not going to work very well, but I have laneway that has timber on both sides BUT the sun still catches it for a couple of hours each day and I have fair clover on it that is extremely low maintenance. I probably mow it twice per year is all, and it was a spot that I just spun out some extra clover seed on a few years back. I should probably hit it again this year now that I think about it.

I have a regular lawn around my cabin that is probably 1/3 clover now and normally the deer don't get too close to the cabin, but at this time of the year when food is scarce, I will find them scratching within 18" of the cabin.

 

[stevep]

I'm in central Missouri. Big rains today, then the temp is going to start dropping with day time highs in the mid 30's and lows below freezing. Looks like it might stay that way for a while. I was planning on frost seeding this weekend. After the rain, but right as the temp starts dropping a bit. Would this be a good time?

Thanks.

Steve