Crossbow question….

[Rous14]

I did not read all the comments above, but I can say a couple things about cross bows for sure.
1. People that did not bow hunt in the past are now bowhunting more and more with crossbows. This means that during the rut when young bucks are vulnerable, they are getting shot. In my past area of Illinois most of the good genetic 2–3-year-old bucks were getting shot by crossbow hunters. The age structure in Illinois is being destroyed and Illinois will continue to see this more and more as the years pass.
2. More crossbow hunters means less private land available to hunt and it also means more crowded public land hunting areas. In return, lease prices go up because all the NR hunters pile into places like Illinois each fall.
Crossbows are doing a lot of damage that will really be seen in the years to come when it comes to age structure and areas to hunt.

on possibly another take…. take my MI or PA examples in high population areas. Or even MO…
U can find tons of areas with massive deer populations…. Look out in fields of “50 deer” & it’s a handful of 1.5’s with a 2.5 on occasion. Those bucks got picked off one by one - day by day of a multi-month season.
I’ll give u a real example that’s more apples to apples…. Go across the line into MO …. I literally know 100+ dudes that own across into MO…. Areas they don’t shoot does & some of them “too many”….. the amount of 5.5’s is staggeringly low vs iowa. I’ll say it how it is…. Like, no doubt in my mind, dudes on iowa side might have 10 mature bucks to the MO guys 1. Consistently across countless farms I know. I talked to a guy witn multiple hundreds to thousand acre tracts. Dude is mega loaded & has 7,200 m/l acres in N MO (i won’t name him & I don’t think he even goes on the internet so all good ) …. He had 5 fully mature bucks going into deer season. He’s down to 2. He was telling me about his best 2-4 year olds…. He had a 170’s 3.5…. Shot with crossbow on his fence. 75%+ of his best 2-4 year olds have been shot by neighbors with “all weapons”. Clearly rifles is the big one in MO. U get to Nov 20 (when I talk to him) & 75% of his up & comers are killed. That’s with huge land & infinate food plots. I asked if this was normal? “Bit worse than normal yes”. He had a year where he had 10+ mature bucks on all these farms in past. He’s beyond frustrated. I talk to COUNTLESS dudes just like this, just with less land & less resources. A few exceptions yes. But overall - in MO or mi or Wi or MN or u name it…. Vast majority of best 2-4 year olds killed every year. Plenty of does. So- what does that tell us??? Guys are out to fill their tag with whatever “highest scoring buck they can” & for many of these hunters- age is not an issue. The regulations allow this. Months with crossbows. Guns when deer are running wild. These examples are the NORM across country. The only exceptions are: states that have great regs, neighborhoods that self regulate, areas where hunters have quit or no hunting parcels exist. Mature bucks in other states are the exception. Young best genetic bucks being shot- a broken record that happens across the country 4 Frigin months out of the year!!!!!!! Anyone here remember when deer hunters used to go out for “a week”? Or “couple weeks of archery & 5 days of gun”? Stuff like that. Now we bumped it up to 4+ months of season & with crossbows - it’s getting close to saying “4 months of gun season”. & we wonder why guys are frustrated or locking ground up at alarming rates. We all know many folks that “hope half the hunters quit”. & I understand why. It just doesn’t need to happen, totally avoidable & better solutions by far. It’ll happen though at this rate & there will be bigger bucks because of it.

Last…. The thing we can’t change & why regulations are PARAMOUNT!!!!! Regs define all!!!!….. there’s GIVERS & TAKERS in hunting & every area of life!!!! When 80% of guys are TAKERS!!!!! ……. Why our regulations are the only thing keeping quality up!!!!!
Sorry on the rant.

I pretty much agree with most everything you point out but i guess what I’m saying is that now go in to every area/state you just described and eliminate 30-50% of the deer overnight. In every single situation you described the hunting would go from bad to worse. I don’t see any possible way that that would somehow make any of what you described better. Instead of 5 mature bucks going in to the season he wouldve had 2 or 3. Instead of 7 or 8 decent 3 year olds he’d have 4 or 5. I live in Michigan and here we would go from virtually zero mature bucks to 30-40% less 1 and 2 year olds. Even that’s less fun for a Michigan hunter. I assume PA is the exact same way as MI.

Bottom line for me is that nobody has to guess or speculate or debate whether 30-50% more deer in the state of Illinois would be a good or bad thing for the herd, we already had 10 years of it to know for certain and it was extremely good even with all of the out of staters and outfitters. It fell off a cliff in 2012 almost overnight because of ehd and hasn’t recovered.

 

[Rous14]

My neighbor killed two 200”s last year, he’s hunting two different 190 inchers right now as we speak, I had a 180“ on my farm all fall get killed by a different neighbor sunday night w shotgun, old neighbor a couple counties south of me killed a 197 last night, my son killed a 181” in October on our farm, two booners got killed a 1/2 mile to my north over the last 2 weeks. Everyone knows what guys like Don Higgins is killing.

I mean IL is still, relative to MO, PA, MI, IN, etc…damn good hunting. As I said earlier, the age structure isn’t terrible. It’s just that when measuring IL to what it was in the 2000s its fallen off a cliff. Shows how insanely good it was in the 2000s.

 

[Sligh1]

I pretty much agree with most everything you point out but i guess what I’m saying is that now go in to every area/state you just described and eliminate 30-50% of the deer overnight. In every single situation you described the hunting would go from bad to worse. I don’t see any possible way that that would somehow make any of what you described better. Instead of 5 mature bucks going in to the season he wouldve had 2 or 3. Instead of 7 or 8 decent 3 year olds he’d have 4 or 5. I live in Michigan and here we would go from virtually zero mature bucks to 30-40% less 1 and 2 year olds. Even that’s less fun for a Michigan hunter. I assume PA is the exact same way as MI.

Bottom line for me is that nobody has to guess or speculate or debate whether 30-50% more deer in the state of Illinois would be a good or bad thing for the herd, we already had 10 years of it to know for certain and it was extremely good even with all of the out of staters and outfitters. It fell off a cliff in 2012 almost overnight because of ehd and hasn’t recovered.

100% agree. I absolutely think the massive killing clearly killed bucks off & reduced buck #’s. Simple math I absolutely agree with!!!
I think Iowa’s decrease in age structure also follows/mirrors the reduction in population.

I know some dudes in: MO, IA, IL, OH, Etc- chasing mammoths. The amount of guys I hear this from is down on average. Across the Midwest. Lower populations, ehd & the yearly kick to the nuts of best 2-4 yo’s take their toll. I do think a lot of places - the pendulum will swing the other way. If I was in IL & in your area- I’d stock pile food. Make habitat as bananas as I could make it & not shoot a single doe!!!!

 

[Rous14]

One last example Skip is your very own IA….just about every resident you ask in IA when the best hunting the state has ever had it’s pretty unanimous that the 2000-2010 range was it. So it’s worse today as we sit here. Why? Hasn’t been crossbows (thanks to the hard work by guys like yourself). No major regulation changes to speak of. It’s bc in 90% of the state there are fewer deer. Pressure stays the same but you reduce the number of deer/bucks, and simple math says the number of bucks that can slip through the cracks to reach 6,7,8 years old goes down proportionately.
If you added crossbows an even smaller % of the bucks would slip through the cracks. Add a flood of NR hunters, goes down some more. We’re on the same page w all of that. But having as many deer as the habitat can support in areas with great genetics and the worlds best soil is the most important factor in the whole equation imo.

 

[tall@wide]

My neighbor killed two 200”s last year, he’s hunting two different 190 inchers right now as we speak, I had a 180“ on my farm all fall get killed by a different neighbor sunday night w shotgun, old neighbor a couple counties south of me killed a 197 last night, my son killed a 181” in October on our farm, two booners got killed a 1/2 mile to my north over the last 2 weeks. Everyone knows what guys like Don Higgins is killing.

I mean IL is still, relative to MO, PA, MI, IN, etc…damn good hunting. As I said earlier, the age structure isn’t terrible. It’s just that when measuring IL to what it was in the 2000s its fallen off a cliff. Shows how insanely good it was in the 2000s.

You are in an incredible area for sure with those stats. Almost everyone I know in Illinois is struggling to find mature bucks to hunt. One of my buddies did kill an absolute monster typical in Illinois this year (199 7/8 gross, 193 1/8 net). His buck was killed in a less popular county with not much NR hunting pressure. Don Higgins does say in his podcast that this is the worst hunting he has seen in Illinois for many many years when it comes to quality mature bucks.

 

[tall@wide]

One last example Skip is your very own IA….just about every resident you ask in IA when the best hunting the state has ever had it’s pretty unanimous that the 2000-2010 range was it. So it’s worse today as we sit here. Why? Hasn’t been crossbows (thanks to the hard work by guys like yourself). No major regulation changes to speak of. It’s bc in 90% of the state there are fewer deer. Pressure stays the same but you reduce the number of deer/bucks, and simple math says the number of bucks that can slip through the cracks to reach 6,7,8 years old goes down proportionately.
If you added crossbows an even smaller % of the bucks would slip through the cracks. Add a flood of NR hunters, goes down some more. We’re on the same page w all of that. But having as many deer as the habitat can support in areas with great genetics and the worlds best soil is the most important factor in the whole equation imo.

I think EHD has really hurt Iowa since 2012 thru the present year.. I also think Iowas long gun season hurts.. From December 3rd thru the end of hunting season guns are being used. Today with straight wall cartridges used in shotgun and a lot of muzzle loaders that shoot no different from high powered centerfire rifles these days, it takes a big toll. In the past with those long gun seasons shotguns were used and muzzle loaders severely limited in range were used. Today it's like having one long gun season with high powered rifles.

 

[Rous14]

You are in an incredible area for sure with those stats. Almost everyone I know in Illinois is struggling to find mature bucks to hunt. One of my buddies did kill an absolute monster typical in Illinois this year (199 7/8 gross, 193 1/8 net). His buck was killed in a less popular county with not much NR hunting pressure. Don Higgins does say in his podcast that this is the worst hunting he has seen in Illinois for many many years when it comes to quality mature bucks.

And I’d agree with him. Lowest number of deer in the state since 1990. Add in crossbows to an already diminishing herd with the same amount of pressure as always and no question the number of old mature bucks is at an all time low.

 

[Rous14]

I think EHD has really hurt Iowa since 2012 thru the present year.. I also think Iowas long gun season hurts.. From December 3rd thru the end of hunting season guns are being used. Today with straight wall cartridges used in shotgun and a lot of muzzle loaders that shoot no different from high powered centerfire rifles these days, it takes a big toll. In the past with those long gun seasons shotguns were used and muzzle loaders severely limited in range were used. Today it's like having one long gun season with high powered rifles.

Yeah EHD is straight from the pit of hell haha. Like Skip said it’s just a major kick in the nuts to think you’ve got one that made it to 5 or 6 years old only to find him in September dead. It’s beyond frustrating. But also in my mind one more reason why most hunters/areas need to reduce or eliminate doe harvest.

 

[meyeri]

I didn't analyze much of the data and there is a ton of it there, but crossbow usage went from around 30% to 51% from 2017/18 to 2021/22. So half of your hunters can now kill deer out to 60-70 yds or more. Personally, I'd have killed at least 3 more STUD bucks during that timeframe if I could shoot out to 70 yds.

Archery hunters are better at herd management overall which could explain no significant spike. Some years I kill 5 does, some years I don't kill any if the population is low. I guarantee it has negativily affected your mature buck age structure though.

Annual Deer Harvest Reports

· Illinois Deer Harvest Report, Final 2021-2022

dnr.illinois.gov

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[Hardwood11]

One last example Skip is your very own IA….just about every resident you ask in IA when the best hunting the state has ever had it’s pretty unanimous that the 2000-2010 range was it. So it’s worse today as we sit here. Why? Hasn’t been crossbows (thanks to the hard work by guys like yourself). No major regulation changes to speak of. It’s bc in 90% of the state there are fewer deer. Pressure stays the same but you reduce the number of deer/bucks, and simple math says the number of bucks that can slip through the cracks to reach 6,7,8 years old goes down proportionately.
If you added crossbows an even smaller % of the bucks would slip through the cracks. Add a flood of NR hunters, goes down some more. We’re on the same page w all of that. But having as many deer as the habitat can support in areas with great genetics and the worlds best soil is the most important factor in the whole equation imo.

Crossbows would hurt Iowa more than any state. The big bucks would get picked off much earlier . I can tell you personally I’d have a 160-170 buck if I could have shot 50-70 yds this year .

I can’t shoot that far with my compound. So they are alive !! Iowa is unique in that it is one of the only states to not have a gun season in November.

Crossbow hunters would have a massive impact ! Please NO … !!