Giant Deer of Iowa are rapidly becoming a past memory

[iowaqdm]

Wow. Lower my expectations???? You can't tell someone to lower their expectations. Why should Iowa lower their ceiling? I work in work high volume sales every day and your exact attitude is the type I try to fix or get rid of. This comes from a calm guy just drinking his morning coffee. So I hope this conversation can stay that way. But this exact attitude is what is hurting the sport. "Well I don't have anything good this year might as well shoot the biggest deer I have" "I gotta shoot a buck".. Get out of here with that crap. Most of people on here like myself that want to make hunting harder again have gone several years without filling a buck tag. Guess what? We didn't lower our expatiations.. If there wasn't a buck old enough we didn't shoot one. Just being the adult in the room.

Now as far as Jase and your conversation about bucks that have potential to get to 180s. Him saying even less that 1 out of 10. I disagree agree with. You have got to remember IowaQDM where he comes from. He's a disciple from the Auburn Deer lab. Where he got his education. He is still learning Iowa's genetics and how vastly different they are than the south. Jase is doing amazing things for Iowa and I can't wait to see where he takes it. He's great for our state. We all must continue to learn about the science and conservation of whitetails. Where my farms are located, if you give the bucks age, the percentage of them that can get to 180 is higher than 1/10. The problem like most areas is getting them to the age is the single hardest thing to do. Ever. Now throw in technology... It isn't happening.

Just be clear. When I said lower your expectations, I was referring to the number of top end bucks that you expect to see on the landscape with our low population, and recent EHD outbreak, not lower your standards and shoot smaller deer. You can hold out for a 200” if that is your goal. But don’t expect to see three 180” while you’re waiting unless you own or control 2,000 acres.

 

[chopperz]

I think the most logical way to fix Iowa is 1:increase the population
2: look at harvest data for each season and make an educated decision on how to reduce buck harvest for each one ( for example if 75% of our harvest is during gun season then that’s probably where we should start changing things )
3: I’m going out tonight and I will have 4 different things in my pack that take a battery… 20 years ago it would have been zeri

We need to stop pointing the finger at each other and blaming groups. The gun hunters vs bow hunters. Smokeless ML vs straight wall hunters. Food plot growers vs field edge hunters. It's counterproductive.

We can all agree our quality in Iowa has gone down hill along with access to ground. Those two are parallel. It's never been easier to hunt and kill a nice buck. Never been easier! Go buy an $80 cell cam and throw it up on a tree and go back to their everyday life and boom. Get a picture of a buck that gets their motivation up and they go in and hunt. Now 10 years ago that same hunter never had the same ambition and drive most of us on this site have. 10 years ago that same hunter never got around to bow hunting because he didn't know what was there and it took effort to go hunt the 'unknown'. Hunting has never been easier.

I'm not going to point fingers because that does nothing. What we need to do it make hunting hard again. Specifically, killing a 4 year old or older hard again. A 4 year old buck is the easiest deer to kill in the woods. Their testosterone levels are maxed out while running carelessly through the woods. Not old enough to know better. Throw in cell cams to tell you exactly where they are at. Done deal. Wonder why our quality is going down.

We need to take technology advancement away. Cell cams and drones need to go. We can't take away cell cams 100% on private. however, we can limit the period when they receive the images. Ideally we could ban them but talking to higher ups that seems to be a dead end road. I think we would all agree its not hard to kill a good deer anymore. We need to make it hard again. The tech over the last few years isn't fair to the deer.

Its not the tech at all in my area...this is an example....when there's only a few hundred deer and a couple thousand (probably more) those deer don't t have a chance....especially when we get hit w ehd....there needs to be quotas on the number of tags giving out...thats the only way deer #s are gonna come back....you can't have say 100 deer and let 1000 hunters try and kill them....its a no win situation

 

[hillrunner]

Its not the tech at all in my area...this is an example....when there's only a few hundred deer and a couple thousand (probably more) those deer don't t have a chance....especially when we get hit w ehd....there needs to be quotas on the number of tags giving out...thats the only way deer #s are gonna come back....you can't have say 100 deer and let 1000 hunters try and kill them....its a no win situation

Tech still makes it far easier to get those 100 deer

 

[chopperz]

Tech still makes it far easier to get those 100 deer

3/4 of the deer in my county get killed from gun season...we just passed the straight wall cartridge couple yrs ago...you think iowa should reverse that? Never gonna happen....if 1k hunters are after 100 deer w shotguns the deer still dont have a chance and im a gun hunter...

 

[IowaBowHunter1983]

Side track.... but heck... we already at 36 pages.

Dont agree with the 1 out of 10 get to 180 at all. Id say alot closer to 5 out of 10. Im talking if every deer was able to get as old as they wanted and express their biggest rack. In most cases thats 6 to 8 in age.

 

[iowavf]

The biggest problem is they keep hunting. In this case with the 5 bucks, he was using tags of his wife, & who knows. They weren’t even hunting. So he took 5 bucks for 3 legit hunters ?

I know my local warden has cracked down on that now.

It would be a simple decision for Minnesota. I’d even be fine with party hunting only during gun season (no muzzy, archery) ! So then if a hunter shoots a buck during bow they are done, or if they get one during gun, they can’t Muzzy hunt .
No exaggeration there are guys in their blinds from Nov to mid December almost every day !

Is there already a regulation against having and using a tag in another persons name? Iowa does, so the person is already breaking the regs, so more regs won’t stop certain people from still doing this.

 

[Hardwood11]

Iowavf… you can just tag another persons deer in Minnesota, as long as both are legally hunting together .

 

[Muskrat24]

Side track.... but heck... we already at 36 pages.

Dont agree with the 1 out of 10 get to 180 at all. Id say alot closer to 5 out of 10. Im talking if every deer was able to get as old as they wanted and express their biggest rack. In most cases thats 6 to 8 in age.

That comment caught my eye earlier. I wonder how many Drurys have that make it to 180 plus. By percentage. They shoot some great deer but 5/10 is not realistic in my opinion. And as I asked OP how old do you think they have to get to have 5/10 get to 180. Based on cell cams and sheds I know of three 6 yo that I have this year that won’t break 150. Those bucks will never make 180.

 

[Daver]

Side track.... but heck... we already at 36 pages.

Dont agree with the 1 out of 10 get to 180 at all. Id say alot closer to 5 out of 10. Im talking if every deer was able to get as old as they wanted and express their biggest rack. In most cases thats 6 to 8 in age.

FWIW, I agree. ^^ I also think that those that supplemental feed, not just food plots, but mineral/grain, enhanced feed, can get the best results...maybe even better than 5 in 10.

Consider penned deer...I think those deer seem to grow A LOT more antler in a year than a wild deer at the same age. No stress, maximum nutrition = possible giant...with some frequency.

 

[abell3]

So on your farm what is the percentage of bucks that have what it takes genetically to be 180” plus by maturity? What age do they have to get to to make 180”?

If given the age 5/10 no doubt. Of the 5 that won't 2 or 3 will be nig framed 8's. Only 2 out of 10 I'd sat are complete junk 130's or less.

I guess I should be more specific. I'm saying if all deer get to the age we want they could be good deer. specific example. 2 years ago 6 year old main frame 8 on my farm. Sheds scored 143. Had a few base kickers but he's what most would consider "Junk". He was a management buck no doubt. The next year he was 7 we went just over 180". Threw a lot of junk. I had a few deer in his age class years prior that were generically superior and I wanted to kill this deer to let them have more room. Life and work get in the way and he lived a lot longer than he probably should have.

To summarize, deer just aren't getting the age to be able to scientifically say only 1 out of 10 deer can make it to 180". It's no doubt higher in Iowa. It's probably 1 out of 10 in Alabama.

 

[abell3]

That comment caught my eye earlier. I wonder how many Drurys have that make it to 180 plus. By percentage. They shoot some great deer but 5/10 is not realistic in my opinion. And as I asked OP how old do you think they have to get to have 5/10 get to 180. Based on cell cams and sheds I know of three 6 yo that I have this year that won’t break 150. Those bucks will never make 180.

One thing I can promise ya Drury's aren't shooting 6 or 7 year olds. Not saying they should but a big 4 year old isn't getting the pass from those boys.

 

[Muddyrem]

On a side note……………let the shed buck season begin

 

[Butch973]

One thing I can promise ya Drury's aren't shooting 6 or 7 year olds. Not saying they should but a big 4 year old isn't getting the pass from those boys.

Seems like every year they shoot a few they say are 9 or 10 years old! They must have some huge farms to keep them alive that long! We’re lucky to have one make it to 4 in my neighborhood! lol

 

[abell3]

Seems like every year they shoot a few they say are 9 or 10 years old! They must have some huge farms to keep them alive that long! We’re lucky to have one make it to 4 in my neighborhood! lol

I could say I was the next tiger woods in high school.. Doesn't mean it's true lol

 

[Muskrat24]

I could say I was the next tiger woods in high school.. Doesn't mean it's true lol

You just proved my point. Or you could say that 5/10 deer can make it to 180”. Pretty much like saying you the next Tiger Woods. Same logic. I’m just saying there are bucks that get older than we think now and they just don’t have what it takes to get big. As Butch973 pointed out, I was trying to show that Drurys and Lee both have way more ability to give deer an opportunity to get old and if 5/10 bucks can get to 180” they must be doing something wrong. Because they shoot some awesome deer but no way every other buck on their property a 180”. Even back in the hay day of Iowa there were several deer that died of old age and were not 180”.

 

[abell3]

You just proved my point. Or you could say that 5/10 deer can make it to 180”. Pretty much like saying you the next Tiger Woods. Same logic. I’m just saying there are bucks that get older than we think now and they just don’t have what it takes to get big. As Butch973 pointed out, I was trying to show that Drurys and Lee both have way more ability to give deer an opportunity to get old and if 5/10 bucks can get to 180” they must be doing something wrong. Because they shoot some awesome deer but no way every other buck on their property a 180”. Even back in the hay day of Iowa there were several deer that died of old age and were not 180”.

I'm confused by your logic here. This Statement makes no sense " Because they shoot some awesome deer but no way every other buck on their property a 180”... Muskrat not every deer on their farm is mature. You're taking it as a literal sense. My point was if there are 10 bucks in the same age class that all get to live to 6 or 7 I think a handful have a great chance to be big. However, we all know, if you take 10 wild bucks in same age class half of them don't make it to their 3rd birthday. Again, it's a grain of salt comment. We'll never know because the mortality rate of deer are high. No, not half the deer on Lakosky's farm are 180... That's because only a fraction of those deer are mature. I don't know if you were joking with this comment or what but I'm confused at the sincereness.

 

[Muskrat24]

I'm confused by your logic here. This Statement makes no sense " Because they shoot some awesome deer but no way every other buck on their property a 180”... Muskrat not every deer on their farm is mature. You're taking it as a literal sense. My point was if there are 10 bucks in the same age class that all get to live to 6 or 7 I think a handful have a great chance to be big. However, we all know, if you take 10 wild bucks in same age class half of them don't make it to their 3rd birthday. Again, it's a grain of salt comment. We'll never know because the mortality rate of deer are high. No, not half the deer on Lakosky's farm are 180... That's because only a fraction of those deer are mature. I don't know if you were joking with this comment or what but I'm confused at the sincereness.

I’m sayin that IF half the bucks 5/10 have the ability to get to 180” the Drurys and Lakosky should be killing a pile of 180”+ deer every year. They would not allow any harvest of cull bucks or need to when every other buck has the potential to get to 180” plus. They have better age structure on their farms than the rest of us hunt. I’m saying those two outfits have as true of a test as anyone will see of what bucks can do at their full potential. If your meaning we need to allow all bucks to die of old age to show they have the 180” potential it is just not realistic. There are bucks even today that make it to 5/6/7 years old but no one believes it because they don’t have big racks. I hunt permission properties and NOTHING that is managed but have 3 bucks in the last five years that were harvested that I had sheds and trail pics of that put those deer at 5-7 yo. All three were 175” or under. Other bucks I have right now that are under 150” at 6 yo. There are a pile of cull bucks around Iowa that have the age but not the genetics to make 180”. Ok, say high grading but that is where my comment about Drurys and Lee come in. They aren’t shooting half of their younger age classes so half the bucks they shoot should be 180” plus. To each their own and entitled to opinions for sure but 5/10 bucks having ability to get to 180”+ seems high.

 

[MarkF]

I’m sayin that IF half the bucks 5/10 have the ability to get to 180” the Drurys and Lakosky should be killing a pile of 180”+ deer every year. They would not allow any harvest of cull bucks or need to when every other buck has the potential to get to 180” plus. They have better age structure on their farms than the rest of us hunt. I’m saying those two outfits have as true of a test as anyone will see of what bucks can do at their full potential. If your meaning we need to allow all bucks to die of old age to show they have the 180” potential it is just not realistic. There are bucks even today that make it to 5/6/7 years old but no one believes it because they don’t have big racks. I hunt permission properties and NOTHING that is managed but have 3 bucks in the last five years that were harvested that I had sheds and trail pics of that put those deer at 5-7 yo. All three were 175” or under. Other bucks I have right now that are under 150” at 6 yo. There are a pile of cull bucks around Iowa that have the age but not the genetics to make 180”. Ok, say high grading but that is where my comment about Drurys and Lee come in. They aren’t shooting half of their younger age classes so half the bucks they shoot should be 180” plus. To each their own and entitled to opinions for sure but 5/10 bucks having ability to get to 180”+ seems high.

With the amount of people that sit on Lees fence line, I bet 95% of the good genetic bucks never see their 5th birthday. Marks hunting camp is like an outfitter with all the guys they have so very few of those deer get past 5 either. I’m not sure if 50% would be 180 but I am sure we’ll never know if most of them die at 3-4 years old.

 

[JBAGS]

I have never hunted Kansas or Indiana. Why would I? I guess I have always thought why travel to hunt whitetails or buy land in another State when I am fortunate enough to have the opportunity to own and hunt in my home State of Iowa. The most highly coveted tag in the country and I have access to three buck tags and doe tags if needed to manage my property. Why would I ever need to leave Iowa to hunt whitetails? Better question would be…Why would I want to sit in a tree in Kansas or Indiana in November when I could be in Iowa on my own farm? Could I buy a farm in Kansas or Indiana? Probably, why don’t I? Because I think about the kid who lives in those States that loves to deer hunt that dreams about owning his own deer hunting place. Just like I did when I was a kid. How does that help him when me or a thousand other NR come in and buy everything up and price him out and then tell him good luck finding a piece to own, or even hunt on in his own State? Or tell him he has to eat ramen the first half of his life every meal and never drive a decent vehicle, then maybe just maybe he could buy a 40 or an 80 if he is lucky.

I guess I’d rather be part of the solution than part of the problem. I have spent too much time over the last two decades trying to protect what Iowa has to turn around and throw in the towel or buy in other States. How many times has someone on IW (myself included) said fix your own State don’t come here and buy. Then follow that up with…if you do buy here don’t complain and then try to change our rules. It would be hypocritical for me to buy in other States because for years I have been opposed to increased NR tags, increased NR land ownership and NR landowners being guaranteed tags. I have always fought to help insulate the next generation of Iowa residents from loosing more acres to NR ownership. So kids who live here might have a chance to own their own slice of heaven just like I have been able to do.

I guess I could go hunt public in Kansas or Indiana but then I would competing with some local that likely doesn’t have somewhere else to go or more NR.

I guess a guy who lives in Iowa and feels the need to buy in surrounding States when they have three buck tags available to them here have way more antler lust than I do, or they are doing it to make money by driving prices higher on the next generation which is even worse in my opinion.

I would tell Iowa landowners that feel the need buy in other States and crisscross the midwest trying to punch tags and rack up inches of antler annually that you can probably quit chasing notoriety because nobody over the age of 25 really cares anymore. At least no one over the age of 25 that knows anything. So get over yourself because you’re only impressing naïve kids who don’t know any better.

I know I quit caring about what other people shot 20 years ago. Because even back then with enough money you could buy inches of antler by locking up acres, either buying it or leasing it. Killing big deer annually has more to do with the size of your pocket book than your hunting ability.

So my opinions which I present come from 40+ years of bowhunting whitetails, 30+ years gun hunting whitetails, 20+ years of managing my own land, 20+ years of contacting legislators and political groups fighting to protect Iowa’s resources, thousands of hours studying, listening and learning about whitetail management including habitat management, deer studies, deer behavior and herd management. But more importantly, my opinions are based on science, research, experience, common sense and the ability to recognize BS when the numbers don’t add up or when I am trying to be sold something.

I assure you and everyone on this site. If I believed for one minute that a one buck limit would improve the quality of hunting for all of Iowa’s deer hunters and would increase our top end potential I would be in favor of it. I don’t believe for one second that it will. It will lead to intensified high grading and less top end bucks and more 130” 5 year old eight points. (If that is your idea of improving age structure and improving Iowa) then I am not in support of it. How can I come to that conclusion? Common sense from looking at and studying the numbers. Also, because we can look at the 20,000 acre Amana Colonies one buck limit for the last 20+ years to back my position. It is basically a case study done right here in Iowa, not in Indiana, not in Kansas, right here in Iowa. What was their conclusion after 20+ years? Their one buck limit led to even greater high grading (due to nobody wanting to waste their only buck tag on a cull buck) and decreased the number of top end bucks inside that 20,000 acres even more so than what was present just outside of it. Their solution, they went back to Iowa’s current tag system to encourage culling.

You don’t have to believe me. Call Jase Elliott, the DNR Deer Biologist, he is a great guy to discuss deer herd management with, he has told me straight up that going to a one buck limit won’t improve the number of top end bucks. He has also made the comment to me that he doesn’t know why people would think that it would. He confirmed what I have been saying, we don’t harvest enough second or third bucks to even make a difference. He also agreed that getting the population up is the answer to improving the hunting for everyone including guys looking for top end bucks. He also feels it is important for the future of deer hunting in Iowa that bowhunters have to opportunity to also gun hunt. Likewise, he feels it is important that gun hunters also have the opportunity to bow hunt. He did say that they will be decreasing doe quotas even more for next year. They are on top of it. Let them manage the herd. This will take 3-5 years to recover. Have some patience.

I have presented the numbers for Iowa, then Indiana and now Kansas. I have broke the numbers down and tried to make the case for the importance of having more does on the landscape to improve buck quantity and quality.

We had our best hunting when we had similar deer populations as what Indiana and Kansas currently have now. That is not a coincidence. We didn’t have a one buck limit then and we sure don’t need it implemented now. We need more does on our landscape. As myself and many others have said, It has to do with producing significantly more bucks than what are being harvested so that you’re constantly back filling and stacking up your buck population. That is what allows more bucks to reach the next age class and ultimately age 4,5,6.

As booneriverbucks indicated, those with basic math skills and an understanding of deer herd management can figure this out very quickly.

We can’t take things (buck tags, cell cams, weapons, etc,) away from people or manage our deer herd based on “feelings” or “I think” this will make a difference. We have to manage our herd based on science.

Jase and I were discussing top end potential bucks during one conversation and I mentioned to him I always felt maybe 1 out of 10 bucks had the potential to reach 180” plus. I asked what he thought? His response was “if that”. Let that sink in.

The guys you watch on youtube who are killing 180-200”+ bucks regularly, most are doing that on literally thousands of acres of controlled land with unlimited food and almost zero hunting pressure.

As booneriverbucks said…Guys lower your expectations.

Reason I asked if you hunted KS is you made a lot of general assumptions, especially for someone who now admittedly has never even hunted there. You are off base on a lot of what you said but I will just let it be. I have hunted there for 15 years and owned land if 5 counties, so I have some experience.
This thread is about Iowa, where you are from and are passionate about making it better, I can get on board with that. It's a shadow of what it once was, sadly. I agree getting the population back up should be priority #1. How you do that effectively, tough to say.

 

[Muskrat24]

With the amount of people that sit on Lees fence line, I bet 95% of the good genetic bucks never see their 5th birthday. Marks hunting camp is like an outfitter with all the guys they have so very few of those deer get past 5 either. I’m not sure if 50% would be 180 but I am sure we’ll never know if most of them die at 3-4 years old.

You could be right that it is like an outfitter. I’ve never hunted there. But I’d take my chances of seeing multiple 5+ yo deer on their farms compared to what most of us hunt now. And what little I’ve watched of their stuff they have some old bucks that don’t score well. In addition to their monsters. Some of the deer Lee has shot look OLD by their saggy double chins and pot belly’s and still don’t break 180.