Giant Deer of Iowa are rapidly becoming a past memory

[iowaqdm]

Reason I asked if you hunted KS is you made a lot of general assumptions, especially for someone who now admittedly has never even hunted there. You are off base on a lot of what you said but I will just let it be. I have hunted there for 15 years and owned land if 5 counties, so I have some experience.
This thread is about Iowa, where you are from and are passionate about making it better, I can get on board with that. It's a shadow of what it once was, sadly. I agree getting the population back up should be priority #1. How you do that effectively, tough to say.

Please tell me how I made general assumptions? How am I off base?

I used the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks deer population numbers for population estimate, hunter numbers, and harvest numbers.

Tract size, I used OnX to look over the State, anyone with the app can do that. I have been doing that for years in numerous States. There are huge tracks of land in Kansas. Nothing even close to or similar to what Iowa has, no comparison frankly.

Kansas has baiting. I have talked with guys who have hunted out there and it is obvious that the private land/leased land gets tons of corn, feed, and other attractants dumped on the landscape or in feeders. Not sure what opinion, or assumption I have made that would be changed by going there to hunt. Because trying to dismiss fact based arguments with… “have you hunted there?”…is not an argument against the facts presented. More of a distraction than a counter point. The population, hunter numbers, harvest numbers, tract size and baiting are all factual and can be verified by anyone who wants to check and do the math. So no assumptions there.

Lastly, I think it would be hard to to make the argument that QDM hasn’t exponentially increased across the midwest in the last 20+ years.

Those were the four things (1. population/ hunter numbers, 2. tract size, 3. baiting, 4. QDM) that I felt (which is my opinion based on the numbers, anyone can look at the numbers and make their own opinion) have more of an effect on quality and quantity of bucks on Kansas’s landscape than Kansas’s one buck limit.

Also, I didn’t go into this in that post you were referring to because it was already long enough. However, I will in this post. Kansas is 45% larger with 81,858 square miles with 35% less hunters and 35% more deer. That puts the hunter density number around 1.25 hunters per square mile in Kansas and basically 3 hunters per square mile in Iowa. So way less pressure on average per square mile compared to Iowa. In Kansas they harvest around 45,000 bucks annually out of 105,000 hunters (so 42% success rate on bucks) versus Iowa harvests 45,000 out of 160,000 hunters (so 28% success rate). So more bucks not less are killed per hunter, percentage wise in Kansas. They also harvest less does than bucks annually in Kansas. That is not the case in Iowa. We harvest more does than bucks annually. If you use three does/buck for population in Iowa and Kansas. Kansas harvests 25% of their buck population and 7% of their doe population annually. Iowa harvests 40% of the buck population, 18% of our doe population. However, the most important statistic is: due to Kansas’s much higher doe population they add 207,500 more bucks annually to their landscape compared to Iowa. Yet they harvest the same number of bucks. That is how Kansas builds age structure and increases the number of top end bucks on their landscape. It has nothing to do with their one buck limit IMO.

But, as always, I am willing to learn if you can tell me which assumptions are off base. Show me how you interpret the numbers that would change my opinion being I haven’t hunted there.

I am glad that we agree that getting the population increased in Iowa should be priority number one.

 

[IowaBowHunter1983]

I’m sayin that IF half the bucks 5/10 have the ability to get to 180” the Drurys and Lakosky should be killing a pile of 180”+ deer every year. They would not allow any harvest of cull bucks or need to when every other buck has the potential to get to 180” plus. They have better age structure on their farms than the rest of us hunt. I’m saying those two outfits have as true of a test as anyone will see of what bucks can do at their full potential. If your meaning we need to allow all bucks to die of old age to show they have the 180” potential it is just not realistic. There are bucks even today that make it to 5/6/7 years old but no one believes it because they don’t have big racks. I hunt permission properties and NOTHING that is managed but have 3 bucks in the last five years that were harvested that I had sheds and trail pics of that put those deer at 5-7 yo. All three were 175” or under. Other bucks I have right now that are under 150” at 6 yo. There are a pile of cull bucks around Iowa that have the age but not the genetics to make 180”. Ok, say high grading but that is where my comment about Drurys and Lee come in. They aren’t shooting half of their younger age classes so half the bucks they shoot should be 180” plus. To each their own and entitled to opinions for sure but 5/10 bucks having ability to get to 180”+ seems high.

You are severely over estimating the age of bucks that certain people are shooting....

The need to produce content is a factor.

 

[Muskrat24]

You are severely over estimating the age of bucks that certain people are shooting....

The need to produce content is a factor.

Referring to drurys and Lee or common Joe?

 

[IowaBowHunter1983]

Referring to drurys and Lee or common Joe?

Yes

 

[Muskrat24]

Yes

Interesting. Must be liars I guess. LOL. I was just going by what they said on the shows. Just looked up 4 shows of Drurys and they said 5, 6, 6 and 9. One of which may have been 180+. Tiffany just posted one of a 6 yo that wasn’t 180”. I probably am overestimating what they said…

 

[MarkF]

Interesting. Must be liars I guess. LOL. I was just going by what they said on the shows. Just looked up 4 shows of Drurys and they said 5, 6, 6 and 9. One of which may have been 180+. Tiffany just posted one of a 6 yo that wasn’t 180”. I probably am overestimating what they said…

The ones that have the genetics to be 180+ are usually killed before they ever get a chance to get there. The reason they’re killing lower scoring old bucks is because they are the only ones that make it to that age. Lee manages to the absolute top level on thousands of acres and still didn’t have a buck he wanted to hunt this year, if that doesn’t tell you the direction things have headed I don’t know what will.

 

[iowaqdm]

Dont agree with the 1 out of 10 get to 180 at all. Id say alot closer to 5 out of 10. Im talking if every deer was able to get as old as they wanted and express their biggest rack. In most cases thats 6 to 8 in age.

This is exactly my point of why guys need to lower their expectations on what they will see on the landscape. To believe 5/10 bucks have the potential to reach 180” even if allowed to live to 6-8 (which that age is fantasy land for good genetic bucks unless you control thousands of contiguous acres) is way too high. Are there areas with really good or trashy genetics that 5/10 may be able to reach 180”…yes, but as a whole across our State, absolutely no way. I still think 1/10 bucks have the potential to reach 180” by age 5 or 6. That is an achievable age with good management and some luck. You don’t have to own lots of acres to get a buck to that age if you have enough food, the right cover, water, does, control bullies and low pressure hunt it. Having neighbors on the same page obviously helps. However, you won’t see bucks like that every year so don’t expect to.

Think about what percentage of bucks on Iowa’s landscape are clean 8 points. A couple years ago I was looking to see how many 8 points were in B&C record books and at that time. There were less than 40 or something like that. That is forty 8 points that made it past 170” not 180”. Now that is net score obviously so they likely grossed higher, but none the less to break 170” as an 8 point is an absolute Toad. To break 180” is Crazy Stupid Big. Last I checked, the Boone and Crockett world record 8 point was 184 5/8”. Eight pointers that are that caliber don’t even look real. Look up Jason Sanders Illinois buck to get an idea. It grossed 192 3/8. But had 30/32” main beams (places top 5 all time in beam length), 22 3/8” inside spread, 16/14” G2’s and 12” G3, ultimately netted 184 7/8”. One (kicker point) that measured 1 6/8 lowered the final score to 183 1/8”.

Now take 10 pointers, they have to have good mass, good beam length, good brow times good G2’s, good G3’s and great g4’s to even stand a chance of breaking 180”. Not every 10 point has those genetics. Seems like most will be lacking at least one of those and thus won’t ever break 180”. Whether that is short brows, short G2, or short G 4’s. So if you don’t have really trashy genetics where bucks throw a lot of extra points or are a main frame 12 point with some decent tine length you won’t see very many break 180” even if they live to age 6+. There is no way 5/10 bucks have the genetics to achieve 180” across Iowa as a whole.

Posting unrealistic expectations like that on a forum where young guys come to learn about herd management, land management, and hunting in general is disappointing. Because guys believing that will have a very disappointing Fall and likely hunting journey in general waiting for a 180”.

I would encourage guys to try to let bucks with 10 points or more get to 5 years old and those with the best genetic traits to 6 if you’re wanting to put top end bucks on the wall. Cull bully bucks with less than 10 points by age 4, (now if you have a monster 8 that looks like he could blow up go ahead and pass him) especially those bucks that don’t look to have the genetics to reach 180”. Have realistic goals based on the acres you manage and enjoy the management process because shooting big culls is fun and rewarding. If your enjoyment is solely based on shooting bucks over 180” you’re likely going to be very disappointed. In most areas with our current population levels you might get the chance to legitimately hunt for a 180”+ buck one or two years every decade (unless you control thousands of acres).

Now if we are able to increase our doe population by 250,000 then the sky would be the limit. You might have a 180”+ every third year (possibly every other year) depending on the genetics in your neighborhood. Regardless, the number of 160”+ bucks on the landscape would really make days in the stand enjoyable. But until we get the population up there have realistic goals and keep culling.

 

[newfarmer]

This is exactly my point of why guys need to lower their expectations on what they will see on the landscape. To believe 5/10 bucks have the potential to reach 180” even if allowed to live to 6-8 (which that age is fantasy land for good genetic bucks unless you control thousands of contiguous acres) is way too high. Are there areas with really good or trashy genetics that 5/10 may be able to reach 180”…yes, but as a whole across our State, absolutely no way. I still think 1/10 bucks have the potential to reach 180” by age 5 or 6. That is an achievable age with good management and some luck. You don’t have to own lots of acres to get a buck to that age if you have enough food, the right cover, water, does, control bullies and low pressure hunt it. Having neighbors on the same page obviously helps. However, you won’t see bucks like that every year so don’t expect to.

Think about what percentage of bucks on Iowa’s landscape are clean 8 points. A couple years ago I was looking to see how many 8 points were in B&C record books and at that time. There were less than 40 or something like that. That is forty 8 points that made it past 170” not 180”. Now that is net score obviously so they likely grossed higher, but none the less to break 170” as an 8 point is an absolute Toad. To break 180” is Crazy Stupid Big. Last I checked, the Boone and Crockett world record 8 point was 184 5/8”. Eight pointers that are that caliber don’t even look real. Look up Jason Sanders Illinois buck to get an idea. It grossed 192 3/8. But had 30/32” main beams (places top 5 all time in beam length), 22 3/8” inside spread, 16/14” G2’s and 12” G3, ultimately netted 184 7/8”. One (kicker point) that measured 1 6/8 lowered the final score to 183 1/8”.

Now take 10 pointers, they have to have good mass, good beam length, good brow times good G2’s, good G3’s and great g4’s to even stand a chance of breaking 180”. Not every 10 point has those genetics. Seems like most will be lacking at least one of those and thus won’t ever break 180”. Whether that is short brows, short G2, or short G 4’s. So if you don’t have really trashy genetics where bucks throw a lot of extra points or are a main frame 12 point with some decent tine length you won’t see very many break 180” even if they live to age 6+. There is no way 5/10 bucks have the genetics to achieve 180” across Iowa as a whole.

Posting unrealistic expectations like that on a forum where young guys come to learn about herd management, land management, and hunting in general is disappointing. Because guys believing that will have a very disappointing Fall and likely hunting journey in general waiting for a 180”.

I would encourage guys to try to let bucks with 10 points or more get to 5 years old and those with the best genetic traits to 6 if you’re wanting to put top end bucks on the wall. Cull bully bucks with less than 10 points by age 4, (now if you have a monster 8 that looks like he could blow up go ahead and pass him) especially those bucks that don’t look to have the genetics to reach 180”. Have realistic goals based on the acres you manage and enjoy the management process because shooting big culls is fun and rewarding. If your enjoyment is solely based on shooting bucks over 180” you’re likely going to be very disappointed. In most areas with our current population levels you might get the chance to legitimately hunt for a 180”+ buck one or two years every decade (unless you control thousands of acres).

Now if we are able to increase our doe population by 250,000 then the sky would be the limit. You might have a 180”+ every third year (possibly every other year) depending on the genetics in your neighborhood. Regardless, the number of 160”+ bucks on the landscape would really make days in the stand enjoyable. But until we get the population up there have realistic goals and keep culling.

My county has only had 2 deer over 200”…. Less than 15 over 180”…. Doesn’t matter how old they get, genetics arent here.
I can’t bring in a livestock trailer of does and dump off like certain high fence areas….
It’s just like people- how many people will get to 6’5” with age? Doesn’t matter how old, genetics aren’t there it’s not happening.

I think this whole discussion has been a hot topic. I look back to the 80s and 90s- seemed like big deer were getting killed plenty (I’d argue numbers were “down” from the glory days) but it was HARDER to kill them and we didn’t have the amount of information at our finger tips. We’ve created monsters in all of us by wanting it all easier, more information, easier killing abilities. Toss in all the new things with the EHD- yes it all looks terrible for all the ways we are doing it. One buck isn’t the answer for what Iowa has been since the 80s… once we started killing does, and pounding our chests when they kill 17 in a shotgun group out of 20 deer but then talk about “not seeing much”… we all need to go- stop doe harvest. It’s simply that today to battle the advancements in technology and Mother Nature with EHD. In the end, she will always win do maybe its time to listen to her. EHD killing off tons of deer, it’s time to scale things back.
Last rant- I saw a guy post on FB that there was “no way he wasn’t filling tags” because he wouldn’t get a refund- wow, mind was blown by that comment. Also saw one that said they donated every doe they shot to HUSH, and it was double digits…. While HUSH is a good program, it’s also caused a problem with the guys who just want to have bragging rights.

 

[Windlooker]

My taxi in Indianola has 4 over 200 and 8 or 9 from 180s to 190s as we speak. Idk. It’s all guessing, opinion and area specific. Does anyone know or talked to a dnr biologist who might bring info to the table before we start proposing legislation?

 

[Sligh1]

Minnesota is a 1 buck state.......and is garbage.

This thread is about GIANT bucks, not just big or mature as stated in some posts. Only 3 in 10 bucks have what it takes to become a giant. The deer density has to be high enough to overcome the pressure on the high potential bucks.

PLEASE CLARIFY THIS!! . I hear conflicting things on MN. To confirm - MN is a 1 buck state - anyone shoots a buck & they can’t shoot another?
I ask this because I’ve heard it is and then I also have heard different. Genuinely want to know the facts there on how many bucks a guy can shoot and if it is in fact 1.
I absolutely agree MN is garbage…. Rifles start like frigin Nov 5 or 8 or whatever crazy time I hear every year. Northern part of state has no deer!! Now crossbows during archery. State of MN Deer being a train wreck while u guys elect the Tampon Tim’s of the world- no surprise what so ever. & Dag nab I remember hearing how great it was when I was a kid.

 

[MN Slick]

I think biologists would argue that 50% of IA bucks could go 180”. Roughly 33% of bucks are below average, 33% average, and 33% above average. What would you guys say an average buck would score in Iowa? In my experience in North MO, it would be closer to 145". Even if it’s 160” in IA, which I highly doubt, that means only 3 out of 10 bucks would have the genetics to be north of 160”.

Strategic Harvest System: How to Break Through the Buck Management Glass Ceiling as written by the MSU Deer Lab biologists. A good read for hard core deer managers but depressing if your goals are giants!

 

[MN Slick]

PLEASE CLARIFY THIS!! . I hear conflicting things on MN. To confirm - MN is a 1 buck state - anyone shoots a buck & they can’t shoot another?
I ask this because I’ve heard it is and then I also have heard different. Genuinely want to know the facts there on how many bucks a guy can shoot and if it is in fact 1.

A couple of guys from MN made posts about tag sharing and CWD areas. True, you can shoot more than one buck when party hunting, but, there are still only 5 buck tags for a group of 5 guys, so technically one buck tag. However, in CWD kill zones, you can shoot 3 bucks I believe. Interestingly, SEMN, remains the best area in the state despite allowing 3 bucks.

 

[Sligh1]

I think biologists would argue that 50% of IA bucks could go 180”. Roughly 33% of bucks are below average, 33% average, and 33% above average. What would you guys say an average buck would score in Iowa? In my experience in North MO, it would be closer to 145". Even if it’s 160” in IA, which I highly doubt, that means only 3 out of 10 bucks would be north of 160”.

Strategic Harvest System: How to Break Through the Buck Management Glass Ceiling as written by the MSU Deer Lab biologists. A good read for hard core deer managers but depressing if your goals are giants!

Top end is more & better than anyone realizes IMO. It’s a rare to be a “true giant” but more than folks think.
It’s just far less can get there nowadays as they can’t get the age. When iowa was at its peak, imo - was before straight walls, cell cams & all the stuff to pick off the best 4 or even 5-6 year old. Before that- u would see more areas where bucks slipped to 7, 8 or 9. & that’s when they got mammoth.

 

[letemgrow]

My taxi in Indianola has 4 over 200 and 8 or 9 from 180s to 190s as we speak. Idk. It’s all guessing, opinion and area specific. Does anyone know or talked to a dnr biologist who might bring info to the table before we start proposing legislation?

Another factor I've come to the realization with are the overly selective hunters.

They'll pass 50 bucks to shoot a 150"+ and think it's a common deer.

To me, there's 2 parts to this scenario:

It's common for a good hunter to continually put big deer on the wall.

It's not as common for every buck they come across to be 150"+. If you're going through 30 bucks to find one that meets your criteria...that's sounds like an uncommon deer to me.

 

[Daver]

PLEASE CLARIFY THIS!! . I hear conflicting things on MN. To confirm - MN is a 1 buck state - anyone shoots a buck & they can’t shoot another?
I ask this because I’ve heard it is and then I also have heard different. Genuinely want to know the facts there on how many bucks a guy can shoot and if it is in fact 1.
I absolutely agree MN is garbage…. Rifles start like frigin Nov 5 or 8 or whatever crazy time I hear every year. Northern part of state has no deer!! Now crossbows during archery. State of MN Deer being a train wreck while u guys elect the Tampon Tim’s of the world- no surprise what so ever. & Dag nab I remember hearing how great it was when I was a kid.

I am not an expert on Minnesota deer numbers at all, but I remember many, many moons ago now, (about 40 moons ago ) driving up through Minnesota to go fishing in Canada and seeing TONS and TONS of deer, everywhere, including in the great white north region. I don't have historical numbers to share, but there were apparently MANY more deer in MN than in IA...at that time anyway. I don't know if there are any old timers here that can add to that, but the thought that there are so few deer there now is startling...and quite possibly a harbinger for us.

Yes, I do know that they have a different set of problems there than we do here, notably the presence of very large predators, but whatever policies have been employed over the years there appears to have led to what, a 90% drop in population? Yikes!!

 

[Daver]

I think biologists would argue that 50% of IA bucks could go 180”. Roughly 33% of bucks are below average, 33% average, and 33% above average. What would you guys say an average buck would score in Iowa? In my experience in North MO, it would be closer to 145". Even if it’s 160” in IA, which I highly doubt, that means only 3 out of 10 bucks would be north of 160”.

Strategic Harvest System: How to Break Through the Buck Management Glass Ceiling as written by the MSU Deer Lab biologists. A good read for hard core deer managers but depressing if your goals are giants!

One, potentially clarifying point...is the question at hand: a) How many Iowa bucks do get to 180"? OR b) How many Iowa bucks could get to 180"?

Two very different answers IMO. Then...are we talking about: a) "In the wild" conditions, as pretty much all of our deer would actually experience? OR b) Under optimal growing/living conditions? (Low stress, high/optimal nutrition.) Also, two very different answers. Plus, the genetics vary from area to area too. So, one guys experience may be different than someone located elsewhere.

I sense that some of us are interpreting, and then answering, this question from different points of view and some of us are talking past each other a little bit.

 

[MN Slick]

One, potentially clarifying point...is the question at hand: a) How many Iowa bucks do get to 180"? OR b) How many Iowa bucks could get to 180"?

Two very different answers IMO. Then...are we talking about: a) "In the wild" conditions, as pretty much all of our deer would actually experience? OR b) Under optimal growing/living conditions? (Low stress, high/optimal nutrition.) Also, two very different answers. Plus, the genetics vary from area to area too. So, one guys experience may be different than someone located elsewhere.

I sense that some of us are interpreting, and then answering, this question from different points of view and some of us are talking past each other a little bit.

I should have state 33% have below average genetics, 33% average genetics, and 33% have above average genetics. In my opinion, 2 in 10 at best have the genetics to hit 180 in Iowa but I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Bucksnbears]

Daver, Mn still have LOTS of deer.
Exception being the N.E. portion.
I'm in N.W. Mn and we are actually to (or past) the carrying capacity in some areas.
I really think Mn is going to start exploding with big bucks again soon.

 

[Daver]

Daver, Mn still have LOTS of deer.
Exception being the N.E. portion.
I'm in N.W. Mn and we are actually to (or past) the carrying capacity in some areas.
I really think Mn is going to start exploding with big bucks again soon.

OK, good to know, thank you, I thought I had read where people were saying that the population is WAY down. FWIW, I will say that in the last 15 or so years I have driven up through Minnesota to get to Canada probably at least a dozen times and have seen many fewer deer "these days" than I remember from way back. But that is anecdotal and may not reflect reality well.

It is also true that my travels would be up through the central'ish part of the state. (We cross in Baudette.) So maybe the big population switcheroo only applies to the area(s) that I nowadays travel through?? I do know that I may only see fewer than 5 deer through that area of MN, where way back I saw dozens and dozens. Again, FWIW.

 

[Muddyrem]

My county has only had 2 deer over 200”…. Less than 15 over 180”…. Doesn’t matter how old they get, genetics arent here.
I can’t bring in a livestock trailer of does and dump off like certain high fence areas….
It’s just like people- how many people will get to 6’5” with age? Doesn’t matter how old, genetics aren’t there it’s not happening.

Cmon now, you can’t possibly believe this is the case?

The reason deer aren’t scoring their top end potential is because they aren’t getting to the proper age. I don’t even need to know your county to know that the reason deer don’t get to age is because you don’t have the habitat for them to go and hide.

Glaciers brought down our highly productive soils millions of years ago. Glaciers stopped around Des Moines. Look at a soil map and you can see productive soils vs non. You’re a farmer and have an understanding how CSR2 vary once you get south of highway 92 in southern iowa———-coincidently the best deer hunting. The highest quality food sources in Iowa are where the least amount of deer live.

I grew up in north central Iowa. I now live in southern Iowa. The potential for growing absolute giants if given the potential to reach 5-6-7 years old; northern Iowa blows southern Iowa out of the water.