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Proposal Debates

Link to read.

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“That in any county with 500 or more antlerless permits available, the first (opening) day of each anydeer season shall be designated as antlerless only”

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If we were to support the 1st day doe only idea, I would say it does not apply to any county that sold out of the antlerless tags last year, regardless of how many they are allocating this year. There are many counties with allocations of over 1,000 each that sell out every year. They are doing their part. If the DNR wants those counties to take more does, all that they need to do is allocate more.

When we look at this;

1. All of the proposals only apply to a portion of the state (less than 1/3). Many counties may not have antlerless tags this year. Many sell out. And there are several that although they did not sell out but they were close to selling out and should not be a part of this debate.

2. Good luck getting anything to pass that has a negative impact on revenue. Solution, charge more for the resident hunting license. Charge more for all state wide either sex tags. Charge landowners for their extra landowner either sex tags the same price as all statewide tags but give them the same discount as we do today for their antlerless, if available. This should make it easier to sell the antlerless for less or to give them away in the areas that did not sell out and we can treat this as a management issue and quit treating it as a money issue (your 1st antlerless this year will be $20. Your second will be $10. Starting on October 1st, if there are any unsold antlerless tags, they may be purchased 1st come 1st served. If purchasing 3 or more tags for counties that sold out last year, those additional tags will be sold for $10 each in that county. If purchasing 3 or more tags for counties that did not sell out last year, those additional tags will be free).

3. In part of the state, NRs will be shooting does with extra doe tags that they must purchase. This is at the expense of taking the doe tag recreation opportunity away from the resident. That makes no sense to me. Oh, I guess it does. Revenue! Should not apply to any county that does not offer antlerless tags to the residents but should to all of the others.

4. Access is a problem. To offer a solution to this problem is not an easy one.

5. Education is another problem. People do not understand that there are issues needing addressed or the people do not understand the issues that they are aware of. How do we force us to get educated about the issues?

6. The average Joe hunter does not understand. But, why should it be Joe’s responsibility to understand or solve the problem? The Farm Bureau thinks there is a problem. The insurance lobby thinks there is a problem. They think Joe is responsible for resolving their issue but at Joes expense and with no help from them. How about befriending Joe instead of blaming him and helping him to understand the issue? How about helping to pay for Joes expense of taking care of your problem (charge $1 per insured car to go into a fund to help pay for HUSH or to help lower the cost of the antelerless tags).

7. It seems to be more of a special interest or political issue than a management issue.

8. More later!
 
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Link to read.

[ QUOTE ]
“That in any county with 500 or more antlerless permits available, the first (opening) day of each anydeer season shall be designated as antlerless only”

[/ QUOTE ]

If we were to support the 1st day doe only idea, I would say it does not apply to any county that sold out of the antlerless tags last year, regardless of how many they are allocating this year. There are many counties with allocations of over 1,000 each that sell out every year. They are doing their part. If the DNR wants those counties to take more does, all that they need to do is allocate more.


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I live in one of the counties with one of the highest quotas in the state....an it sold out last year.

That does not mean that:
a) Hunters actually used the tags
b) That they even hunted
c) That the herd was actually lowered
d) In the problem areas, allocating more tags has not led to a substantial herd reduction.

In reality, the same amount of permits are being offered again this year as well as the fact we are supposed to put up with an increase in early muzzleloader antlerless permits. To me that's an obvious indication that seasons, tags etc. didn't work.
In previous posts I have mentioned that I have done my own personal surveys of lockers that process deer and found:

a) 90% of the deer brought in for the entire year are brought in opening weekend of the first shotgun season.

b) 85% of those deer were antlered deer

This fall we will have a better means of determining how many and when deer are harvested. However we still have no better means of understanding the actual size of the herd.
My reasons for pushing for this proposal are many but are fueled also by the DNR's insistance on adding more special firearms seasons and the fact that Mr. Little mocked and belittled those of us that dared to make a concerted effort to thwart his personal agenda to increase the use of firearms in Oct. and Nov.

Thanks for your input and the link 150. I don't have all the answers, perhaps not any answers, only ideas. In the end, anyone interested in contacting their rep. about this proposal can certainly choose to use their own variation and ideas.
 
Click for facts about the Iowa deer harvests.

More info (one year old).

There are two main ways to get more does harvested. One is, assuming the same success ratio, sell more antlerless tags. The other is to increase the success rate. Why not allow the more tags and revenue where they are selling out? It would work, given the chance. If 1,000 wasn’t enough to make a change, go to 1,500 or 2,000, or until they fail to sell out. When they fail to sell out, then and only then we can look at these other options to increase the success such as wjs proposed.

I do not have the answers either. The big question is whether or not we will get blind sided with more rules and changes like we did last year.

Facts about the 2004 shotgun harvests;

About 50% of the overall harvest was does. 57% of the first season harvest was antlerless deer (includes some anlterless bucks). 70% of the second season harvest was antlerless.
 
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Click for facts about the Iowa deer harvests.

More info (one year old).

There are two main ways to get more does harvested. One is, assuming the same success ratio, sell more antlerless tags. The other is to increase the success rate. Why not allow the more tags and revenue where they are selling out? It would work, given the chance. If 1,000 wasn’t enough to make a change, go to 1,500 or 2,000, or until they fail to sell out. When they fail to sell out, then and only then we can look at these other options to increase the success such as wjs proposed.

I do not have the answers either. The big question is whether or not we will get blind sided with more rules and changes like we did last year.

Facts about the 2004 shotgun harvests;

About 50% of the overall harvest was does. 57% of the first season harvest was antlerless deer (includes some anlterless bucks). 70% of the second season harvest was antlerless.

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Last year Dale Garner promised us that the Thanksgiving season and the use of rifles would be a one time thing to "lower the deer herd" and then we would be back to business as usual.
Now here we are with not only those two but a third as well with the involvement of the EM season.
First..I don't liked being lied too it only leads to a distrust of the people I'm dealing with.
Secondly...the numbers come from voluntary information that is very limited and oddly enough shows no comparison to what I found to be the truth
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Obviously if we still have deer numbers that are way to high then 50% antlerless kill should perhaps be 70-80%
Many counties are still not selling out so raising quotas will not help IMO.

Tag quotas are a tool however they are useless if hunters have no place to hunt. You can can give away 10,000 tags in a problem county...and it will not solve the problem.
If the system is working then why is the DNR telling us it's not? Mr. Little noted that only a small numer of hunters are taking antlerless deer and that if things don't change that the legislature will take matters into their own hands.
I intend to have a say in the matter before they come up with something like rifles in November!

It still boils down to this...are you content with the current trend of new firearms seasons every year?
Are you happy with where the quality of both our hunting and our deer herd is headed?
If so then by all means do nothing...and based on the number of us that sent in comments on the deer proposals and attended the ICN meetings...doing nothing seems to be the favorable thing to do
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I'm not sure what is the best thing. I think that is why we have experts hired to design the best strategy but it sure seems like they are ignoring the expert opinions. Getting a little tired of this "take it, its good for you or it could be worse attitude" from the lawmakers. We should be considered a partner in these decisions as we are the ones hunting deer. What will it take to give them a wake-up call? Stop shooting anterless deer? It seems like they add extra seasons but are very unpopular with resident hunters. So I wonder if the real agenda is- if they drive enough residents away from hunting- they will then have the excuse to open the borders for limitless NR tags.
 
This is a template/example if anyone is interested in sending your representative and Senator an email on the subject.
You can copy and paste then alter as needed. Perhaps it might also serve as a template for future correspondence with your legislators regarding other topics. I hope eveyone will check the IBA forum for updates on this and other legislation that may affect the future and quality of deer hunting in Iowa. Better yet, join the IBA for email updates on pending legislation and alerts.


Find your legislator here: http://www4.legis.state.ia.us/find-leg/


Your
Name
Address


May 20, 2006
The Honorable (your legislator/senator)
Iowa State Capitol
Des Moines, IA 50319

RE: 2006 Deer Regulation Changes

Dear (your legislator/senator):
I am a registered voter in your district and am very concerned about
the growing deer population in southern and eastern Iowa and the Iowa Dept.
of Natural Resource’s ineffective policies for dealing with it. A number
of concerned citizens, landowners and sportsmen are asking for support in
introducing a resolution that has been suggested by the states deer
biologist.

“That in any county with 500 or more antlerless permits available, the
first(opening) day of each anydeer season shall be designated as antlerless only”

We feel this proposal would be very effective for the following reasons:

Currently the majority of the states hunters by tradition take only antlered
deer. This proposal would increase awareness by all hunters and eliminate
competition for antlered deer over antlerless for one day in each season.

IDNR policy has been to create smaller special seasons for antlerless deer,
however they have proven ineffective in large part, because only a very small number of hunters actually participate in these seasons.

Land ownership is rapidly changing from agricultural use to recreational,
which has created a serious lack of access. We feel it is necessary to
make the most efficient use of the very limited time that the majority of
hunters are a field.
We would appreciate your consideration in introducing and supporting
this legislation. We believe that the farm and insurance lobbies will
support this proposal as well as residents living in these areas.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerely,
Your Name
Ph (000)-000-0000
 
I am a little behind in things or would have replied earlier. I would support the first day doe only issue, although I'm unsure how effective it would be. I think there would still be a lot of bucks killed and left or hidden until Sunday negating the hoped for effect. One suggestion that might help could be to require that the first tag anyone buys is a doe tag in areas with large doe quotas, and then the second could be a anysex tag until quotas are met. This would not effect the revenue, except possibly upward, and would not effect the casual 1st weekend hunter who just wants to hunt deer much either. If that hunter just wants to hunt he won't mind shooting a doe, but if he wants a buck and must buy a doe tag first he will more likley use the doe tag also since he had to pay for it. The same holds true for youngsters also. Another thing that will probably irratate some people is that because the bow season is so long I think that to be fair the doe only restriction would need to be more than just the first day. Maybe some kind of percentage of the season rather than just one day. I know that most bow hunters try to do their share with the doe harvest, but I think that if we ask the 120,000 shotgun hunters to give over 20% of their season to doe hunting shouldn't we, the 30,000 bow hunters do the same? Also I think that the whole concept would gain more support thereby standing a beter chance for passage.

I fully agree with your thoughts that we should become more proactive and be more possitive with our ideas. I am like a lot of people who can find problems with other peoples ideas, but have a hard time coming up with other more positive ideas. I do, however think that some of the negatives need to be discussed to find ways arround them, because the ideas originators sometimes can't see those negatives. Discussion on these issues is great, but endless discussion is just that, endless. Thanks for trying to start a worth while discussion.
 
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One suggestion that might help could be to require that the first tag anyone buys is a doe tag in areas with large doe quotas, and then the second could be a anysex tag until quotas are met.

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That makes a lot of sense and I really like it. The big problem I see though is that there is no way to know where someone is going to hunt with that either sex tag, and likewise, whether or not that area has antlerless tags available. Under the old zone system for residents that would be a very workable idea, not sure how they would implement that now? Other than that problem, I'd be all for it.
 
I did recieve the following reply from Mr. Whitaker:

I like your idea and will propose it next year during the legislative session. Two year ago, I proposed to require an "earn a buck" system, but the proposal did not get voted on. I believe that we must control the does.

On our own farms where we hunt, we enforce "personal best" rules for all of our group. If the buck you see is not your personal best deer yet, then don't shoot. We try to fill all of our tags with does.

Thanks,
John Whitaker


Of course that doesn't mean it's ever going anywhere but it has raised his awareness of the problem. If everyone would take the same attitude as his group it's not likely we would have a problem. At the same time...if he didn't see a problem himself, it's unlikely he would consider further legislation.

The recent press releases are positive, showing the herd is down and car/deer accidents down slightly as well. However I believe this is a little misleading because these are state wide numbers Nearly all of the reduction has been in the north and central areas which have little cover and the deer herd is easily decimated.
My concern is that DNR management was eager to implemement more special seasons this past winter, wihtout having seen any of the current data!
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Just because there has been a large kill doen't mean that the herd has been reduced in problem areas in significant numbers that will eliminate the need for the special seasons. I sincerely doubt that the speacial interests will find these numbers satisfactory.

I sent my corresopndence to my Representative and Senator as well as the Co-chair of the Natural Resources committee and I took the time to thank them for thier support of our Natural Resources and Iowa's sportsmen.
I don't feel that the only time they hear from us...they are always getting "yelled" at...
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I would support the first day doe only issue, although I'm unsure how effective it would be. I think there would still be a lot of bucks killed and left or hidden until Sunday negating the hoped for effect.

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I have to agree, with the level of enforcement the DNR is capable of (very little) I think that any hunter who sees a nice buck is going to kill it and leave it lay till the next day. And if you are going to have some counties that allow you to shoot any sex while others are doe only what's to stop them from loading their bucks quickly into the truck and if their stopped saying they shot them in another county earlier that day? I know many hunters who hunt in more than one county, there would be no way to enforce it without witnessing the occurance. I'm sorry that I don't agree with the plan you're suggesting but I don't see it being that effective.
 
A Couple of other "opinions" of mine, yours may vary:

It amuses me that the decision on regulations is predicated on not "losing revenue". It would appear that they have incorporated the revenue received from the sale of additional antlerless tags issued to reduce numbers of deer in problem areas into their budget and revenue expectations. When/if the deer population is "brought under control" (reduced to a level acceptable by both those with financial interests and hunters)all those extra deer tags aren't going to be bringing in the revenue every year and what then? It would seem that the goal of reducing the deer herd may be incongruous with the goal of raising revenue.

Hunter access does, in my opinion, have possibly the greatest impact on the management of the deer herd. I definitely think that any farmer who receives financial reimbursement for crop damage should be required to allow access to their property by hunters during deer season.

I think that insurance companies who whine about how much they have to pay in damage claims due to deer/vehicle accidents yet are unwilling to invest any funding to assist hunters in solving "their problem" should be made to bear some of the costs of implementing programs designed to reduce populations. The DNR and the legislature needs to stand up to them and tell them to put their money where their mouths are, in the end they will be saving money.

Something that I have suggested and I have seen brought up by others but never seems to gain the attention of some is the suggestion of making antlerless tags good for all seasons. That would result in no revenue loss but result in more does being taken. I don't know the actual kill rate on antlerless tags sold but I am sure that there are a large number that do go unfilled.
I personally purchase several antlerless tags every year and while I do fill many of them several do go unfilled. If I buy an antlerless tag for shotgun season 1 I have 5 days to fill it or it's no good, I have to throw it away. If I was able to use that tag later during bow season or during the late muzzleloader or january seasons chances are I would get it filled. For no additional cost or loss of revenue we could probably double the number of antlerless tags filled.

Finally, I don't really like the wording at the beginning of the letter you propose. I am not "very concerned about
the growing deer population", I think that the insurance companies are already doing more than enough to impress upon our legislators that the deer herd is "out of control and in need of severe reductions". In fact I think that the majority of hunters feel that the size of the deer herd is reasonably being controlled but given the desires of others and subsequently the DNR we are willing to concede a reduction in the herd, the problem we have are the means by which they are proposing to reach that goal.
 
You make some good points that I have to agree with Monster. I am fairly certain that the special interest lobbies will never be satisfied. I also don't think the DNR is going to want to sell less antlerless tags if they can avoid it...at the management levels...it's all about money and I repsect the fact that they need income to operate...I just don't feel the end justifies the means
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This is in fact the reason they won't allow one antlerless tag to be used in all seasons (an idea that I think is a good one!). Right now we have to buy tags for each season...that translates into more tags sold then if we had a tag good from start to finish. So it is a revenue thing for the DNR
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As far as people killing bucks and "hiding" them...of course some will...that's a no brainer.
We know it's already happening during the Thanksgiving season and even the late antlerless season!
Will it prevent groups from killing a big buck and tagging it the next day...of course not...however it will prevent a group from shooting a truck load of yearling bucks on opening day.
Since any antlered deer in possesion would be illegal and subject to massive fines, I find it highly unlikely that anyone is going to risk taking a truck load of bucks across a county line. We already have massive poaching problems and difficulties in enforcing laws in many situations...but that doesn't mean we just don't bother with the law (or new ones) just because some try to circumvent it.

Since this is meant to be debate...I don't want nor expect everyone to agree with my thoughts...that's why we call it debate!
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Hunter access does, in my opinion, have possibly the greatest impact on the management of the deer herd. I definitely think that any farmer who receives financial reimbursement for crop damage should be required to allow access to their property by hunters during deer season.


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Monsterbuck,
I'm not aware of monetary settlements for wildlife crop damage. Is this an insurance policy?
 
Yes JNRBRONC it is a insurance you can have on your farm in case of mother nature or large # of deer problems which then the farmer can get a certain tag (someone help with the name) that allows so many deer to be takin legally with that tag. Doesnt matter who it is.
Monsterbuck I think is on to something right there. That would definitely open the woods up and taking more does.
 
I did some checking around and found that some types of Federal Crop insurance will cover deer damage. The damage has to be extensive and extremely severe and claims for deer damage other then for specialty crops or orchards are extremely rare. Because it's a Federal program I'm sure it would take an act of congress (literally!) to make any such changes. Most farmers in my area are making more money leasing to outfitters then they would ever recieve from insurance.
Unless it was mandated...just because a farmer had to allow access, does not mean hunters would actually takes does versus bucks.
I would support the idea in princple but I just don't think it could be practically implemented
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Bwhntr4life,
Sounds like you might be talking about depredation tags. If so, here is how they work.

If the DNR determines that a farmer suffered $1,000.00 in crop damage (no matter if he farms 40 or 4,000 acres), he can get blocks of ten tags that are good for one deer each on his farm and the season that they are to be valid in has to be selected for each block of ten. They cost $11 each and the farmer can hand the applications out to hunters of his choosing, who then need to submit the application (w/ a check) to the DNR. Obviously, the tags are only valid on the farm unit. If a hunter bags a deer, he is to report the date and sex to the DNR. More beauracy than buying county any sex tags over the counter, IMO.
 
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This is in fact the reason they won't allow one antlerless tag to be used in all seasons (an idea that I think is a good one!). Right now we have to buy tags for each season...that translates into more tags sold then if we had a tag good from start to finish. So it is a revenue thing for the DNR
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I see what you mean but I really think in reality the loss of revenue wouldn't be that high. The fact is that those extra tags hunters might buy for additional seasons would be $11 tags not $26 tags. In addition I think they would see an increase in the number of $26 tags sold as more hunters would probably buy an antlerless tag if it was good all winter. Most of the counties sell out of their quotas anyway so there is already a limited supply of tags and more demand than supply in most cases. The downside would be a minimal loss of revenue but the upside would be a fairly large increase in the number of antlerless deer actually killed which seems to be the goal of everybody.

I think everybody would agree that it would be a much better alternative than gun seasons in November or increasing non resident tags.
 
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This is in fact the reason they won't allow one antlerless tag to be used in all seasons (an idea that I think is a good one!). Right now we have to buy tags for each season...that translates into more tags sold then if we had a tag good from start to finish. So it is a revenue thing for the DNR
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I think everybody would agree that it would be a much better alternative than gun seasons in November or increasing non resident tags.

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No arguement there!
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The problem is...how can we effect change? At the ICN meetings many good ideas were brought up...but Mr. Little, I felt basically pooh poohed them
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If it doesn't make money...forget it!
How often do we suggust changes to the DNR and they actually implement them...or even consider them?
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At least our legislatures know we are voting for them...or not...and seem more apt to listen to us. Even then changes must generally be significant and a "win win" for them to even consider them.
Good common sense ideas never seem to go anywhere...but we need to keep talking and keep trying!
 
Dbltree I agree, it sounds like the wrong people are making the decisions.

Please excuse my ignorance but who exactly is Mr. Little anyway? I hate to admit it but I'm not 100% certain exactly who does have the last word in setting seasons and quotas?
 
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Dbltree I agree, it sounds like the wrong people are making the decisions.

Please excuse my ignorance but who exactly is Mr. Little anyway? I hate to admit it but I'm not 100% certain exactly who does have the last word in setting seasons and quotas?

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Terry Little is the Wildlife Research Unit Leader of all the other wildlife research team and pretty much decides what's going to happen or not...with the NRC's approval.

Mr. Suchy is in charge of deer management but what he feels is best is quite often set aside by Mr. Little and others
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Here is a link to the whole team:

http://www.iowadnr.com/wildlife/files/rbiolst.html
 
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