Shovelbuck
Active Member
If it was illegal to sell antlers, you wouldn't have a lot of the great collections that we all love to see at major events. Such as the Iowa Whitetail Classic.
Our country once made it illegal to drink. Did the law stop it? NO! It only made matters worse with illegal sales of booze.
Point is......there will allways be a few bad apples in the bunch, but 99.99% of all antler sellers and buyers are on the up and up.
Enacting laws to punish a few while the rest are innocent is rediculous. That's nothing more that highschool mentality punishment....Make the whole class do detention because one kid didn't do the homework.
Time to move on.
Our country once made it illegal to drink. Did the law stop it? NO! It only made matters worse with illegal sales of booze.
Point is......there will allways be a few bad apples in the bunch, but 99.99% of all antler sellers and buyers are on the up and up.
Enacting laws to punish a few while the rest are innocent is rediculous. That's nothing more that highschool mentality punishment....Make the whole class do detention because one kid didn't do the homework.
Time to move on.
quackmaster
New Member
It would be really difficult to enforce. Kinda like selling college football tickets around here for a big game. Someone will give you the game tickets if you will by their hat or whatever for $500
[ QUOTE ]
If it was illegal to sell antlers, you wouldn't have a lot of the great collections that we all love to see at major events. Such as the Iowa Whitetail Classic.
Our country once made it illegal to drink. Did the law stop it? NO! It only made matters worse with illegal sales of booze.
Point is......there will allways be a few bad apples in the bunch, but 99.99% of all antler sellers and buyers are on the up and up.
Enacting laws to punish a few while the rest are innocent is rediculous. That's nothing more that highschool mentality punishment....Make the whole class do detention because one kid didn't do the homework.
Time to move on.
[/ QUOTE ]
We would still be able to look at all the fantastic antlers that we all harvested.
If it was illegal to sell antlers, you wouldn't have a lot of the great collections that we all love to see at major events. Such as the Iowa Whitetail Classic.
Our country once made it illegal to drink. Did the law stop it? NO! It only made matters worse with illegal sales of booze.
Point is......there will allways be a few bad apples in the bunch, but 99.99% of all antler sellers and buyers are on the up and up.
Enacting laws to punish a few while the rest are innocent is rediculous. That's nothing more that highschool mentality punishment....Make the whole class do detention because one kid didn't do the homework.
Time to move on.
[/ QUOTE ]
We would still be able to look at all the fantastic antlers that we all harvested.
Shovelbuck
Active Member
Ok, here's some other ways to look at it.
Think supply and demand. If you take away the legal antlers, the price of antlers will increase dramatically. Thus increasing the amount of poaching. Making it illegal to sell will not stop the sales. It will create a large black market for them. This is simple fact that has been proven over and over again.
As an example, Sperm whale oil is the greatest gun lube you could ever hope to use. It is VERY ILLEGAL to sell or possess. I can guarente you though that if I needed some, I could have all I want within a week if I had the money. It is out there for sale. The same goes for elephant ivory. If the governments in Africa would flood the market with the tons of ivory they have stockpiled the price of it would go down drastically. Instead they burn it. The price remains high for a growing black market and the poaching continues. Those are only two examples but there are many, many more. It's SUPPLY AND DEMAND!
The antler buying community is a fairly small group of people. If famous bucks come up for sale, they are usually spotted and reported. The Independence buck is a prime example. If it would of been offered for sale, chances are, it would be back in the hands of the owner. You can bet that whoever stole it is the same person that has it in his basement.
We have enough laws allready in the books. If you want to stop illegal trade then enforce the ones we have. Give them time if they do the crime.
Think supply and demand. If you take away the legal antlers, the price of antlers will increase dramatically. Thus increasing the amount of poaching. Making it illegal to sell will not stop the sales. It will create a large black market for them. This is simple fact that has been proven over and over again.
As an example, Sperm whale oil is the greatest gun lube you could ever hope to use. It is VERY ILLEGAL to sell or possess. I can guarente you though that if I needed some, I could have all I want within a week if I had the money. It is out there for sale. The same goes for elephant ivory. If the governments in Africa would flood the market with the tons of ivory they have stockpiled the price of it would go down drastically. Instead they burn it. The price remains high for a growing black market and the poaching continues. Those are only two examples but there are many, many more. It's SUPPLY AND DEMAND!
The antler buying community is a fairly small group of people. If famous bucks come up for sale, they are usually spotted and reported. The Independence buck is a prime example. If it would of been offered for sale, chances are, it would be back in the hands of the owner. You can bet that whoever stole it is the same person that has it in his basement.
We have enough laws allready in the books. If you want to stop illegal trade then enforce the ones we have. Give them time if they do the crime.
dbltree
Super Moderator
The idea seems noble, however any poached racks are sold illegally now. One can't even pick up and possess a "found" rack with out a salvage tag. Illegal racks sold across state lines would be subject the Federal Lacey act and huge fines, but it doesn't seem to slow the poachers down.
I would certainly support the idea if it would make a serious dent in our poaching problem...I just don't see how yet?
I would certainly support the idea if it would make a serious dent in our poaching problem...I just don't see how yet?
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, here's some other ways to look at it.
Think supply and demand. If you take away the legal antlers, the price of antlers will increase dramatically. Thus increasing the amount of poaching. Making it illegal to sell will not stop the sales. It will create a large black market for them. This is simple fact that has been proven over and over again.
As an example, Sperm whale oil is the greatest gun lube you could ever hope to use. It is VERY ILLEGAL to sell or possess. I can guarente you though that if I needed some, I could have all I want within a week if I had the money. It is out there for sale. The same goes for elephant ivory. If the governments in Africa would flood the market with the tons of ivory they have stockpiled the price of it would go down drastically. Instead they burn it. The price remains high for a growing black market and the poaching continues. Those are only two examples but there are many, many more. It's SUPPLY AND DEMAND!
The antler buying community is a fairly small group of people. If famous bucks come up for sale, they are usually spotted and reported. The Independence buck is a prime example. If it would of been offered for sale, chances are, it would be back in the hands of the owner. You can bet that whoever stole it is the same person that has it in his basement.
We have enough laws allready in the books. If you want to stop illegal trade then enforce the ones we have. Give them time if they do the crime.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you that there will/would be a demand, however, if it were illegal to sell antlers, it would make it alot more difficult to do. You would not see so many for sale on ebay and it may cut down on some of the theft and poaching. Comparing Elephant Ivory to Deer Antlers is a stretch, as someone here will sell a set of antlers to earn a few bucks, someone in Africa selling Ivory is doing it to support a family. Why is it illegal to sell the meat from a deer, but not the antlers?
Ok, here's some other ways to look at it.
Think supply and demand. If you take away the legal antlers, the price of antlers will increase dramatically. Thus increasing the amount of poaching. Making it illegal to sell will not stop the sales. It will create a large black market for them. This is simple fact that has been proven over and over again.
As an example, Sperm whale oil is the greatest gun lube you could ever hope to use. It is VERY ILLEGAL to sell or possess. I can guarente you though that if I needed some, I could have all I want within a week if I had the money. It is out there for sale. The same goes for elephant ivory. If the governments in Africa would flood the market with the tons of ivory they have stockpiled the price of it would go down drastically. Instead they burn it. The price remains high for a growing black market and the poaching continues. Those are only two examples but there are many, many more. It's SUPPLY AND DEMAND!
The antler buying community is a fairly small group of people. If famous bucks come up for sale, they are usually spotted and reported. The Independence buck is a prime example. If it would of been offered for sale, chances are, it would be back in the hands of the owner. You can bet that whoever stole it is the same person that has it in his basement.
We have enough laws allready in the books. If you want to stop illegal trade then enforce the ones we have. Give them time if they do the crime.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you that there will/would be a demand, however, if it were illegal to sell antlers, it would make it alot more difficult to do. You would not see so many for sale on ebay and it may cut down on some of the theft and poaching. Comparing Elephant Ivory to Deer Antlers is a stretch, as someone here will sell a set of antlers to earn a few bucks, someone in Africa selling Ivory is doing it to support a family. Why is it illegal to sell the meat from a deer, but not the antlers?
Shovelbuck
Active Member
I'm done trying to explain this. But thanks for posting my views twice for me.
Take care.
Take care.
Shovelbuck
With the greatest respect to you I must disagree with you on this issue. If the sale of antlers were illegal it would change the effect of supply and demand by reducing the number of buyers to only the illegal ones thereby reducing the demand. The supply side is renewable but still finite because of the number of bucks of that caliber to take. The buyers willing to risk hefty penalties to buy illegal horns would have to decrease making it much harder for the opprotunistic poacher to cash out on a set of horns. The real dirtbag poachers who have established their own markets wouldn't change much, but the dufus poacher that happens on to a buck would not know where to sell after he shot it. Also by making it illegal the small racks just wouldn't sell, again reducing the numbers to just those larger outstanding racks that would be worth the risk. Not many people would risk the Lacey Laws for a 125" rack, so the guy who is out crusing the back roads doesn't have a market for that 125 so he lets it go. The big deer are going to be at risk whether it is legal or not, but the smaller ones won't be there by giving more potential big ones. We also know that big racks are easier to recognize and many are seen year to year and if they show up on the black market some one is likely to recognize it and with DNA testing and other things it might be easy to track backwards. Again it won't stop poaching but gives law enforcement one more tool against the bad guys.
A co-worker just told me his nephew called him about a deer he found on his farm here in Jefferson county. It was a buck killed in the last day or two, proably a 2 1/2 year old that just had the skull plate cut off. They didn't even bother to take the whole head just left everything lay. It was far enough from the road to have been shot with a rifle during this doe season.
With the greatest respect to you I must disagree with you on this issue. If the sale of antlers were illegal it would change the effect of supply and demand by reducing the number of buyers to only the illegal ones thereby reducing the demand. The supply side is renewable but still finite because of the number of bucks of that caliber to take. The buyers willing to risk hefty penalties to buy illegal horns would have to decrease making it much harder for the opprotunistic poacher to cash out on a set of horns. The real dirtbag poachers who have established their own markets wouldn't change much, but the dufus poacher that happens on to a buck would not know where to sell after he shot it. Also by making it illegal the small racks just wouldn't sell, again reducing the numbers to just those larger outstanding racks that would be worth the risk. Not many people would risk the Lacey Laws for a 125" rack, so the guy who is out crusing the back roads doesn't have a market for that 125 so he lets it go. The big deer are going to be at risk whether it is legal or not, but the smaller ones won't be there by giving more potential big ones. We also know that big racks are easier to recognize and many are seen year to year and if they show up on the black market some one is likely to recognize it and with DNA testing and other things it might be easy to track backwards. Again it won't stop poaching but gives law enforcement one more tool against the bad guys.
A co-worker just told me his nephew called him about a deer he found on his farm here in Jefferson county. It was a buck killed in the last day or two, proably a 2 1/2 year old that just had the skull plate cut off. They didn't even bother to take the whole head just left everything lay. It was far enough from the road to have been shot with a rifle during this doe season.
I dont know that making it illegal would help much because I believe the majority of bucks are not poached for profit. However, I do think Bowmaker makes a valid point. I dont think you could compare antler sales to drug sales or something like that. Dopers are everywhere and if you had drugs to sell, 90% of us probably live within a few miles of several, if not dozens, of potential customers. You cant say the same about antler buyers. Anyone who is not a professional poacher is going to have a hard time finding a market if he can't advertise. Selling game meat was made illegal to stop over harvest / market hunting. I guess I dont see why this wouldnt follow the same logic.
Still, I just dont know that a law would have that much overall effect. Plenty of people poach for reasons other than money. Also, there are plenty of legitimate sales that dont hurt a thing. Bigger fines and more CO's would be the best deterrent IMO.
Guess I kind of took the John Kerry stance on that one. I'm against it, no wait, I'm for it, no wait....
Still, I just dont know that a law would have that much overall effect. Plenty of people poach for reasons other than money. Also, there are plenty of legitimate sales that dont hurt a thing. Bigger fines and more CO's would be the best deterrent IMO.
Guess I kind of took the John Kerry stance on that one. I'm against it, no wait, I'm for it, no wait....