Timber Stand Improvment

[150 Class]

Oaks. OK. You touch on ash and elm and a few others. Also, you call deer grazers. I always called them browsers. My observations see deer seem to love browsing on osage orange leaves. Also some elms. I leave them be because of this. How about evergreens? They obviously provide great cover but are any also good for browsing? Are there any publications that speak to this? A list of all trees. Which ones should we nurture and which should we eradicate? Cottonwood? Willows? Hackberry? Black cherry? Locusts? Which maples? Land value might be affected and overall forest health too, but when I get the chainsaw out, which existing trees get whacked and which ones get a pass, followed by planting priorities in any spaces that might get opened up.

 

[BigfootWillow.com]

Some evergreens will be ate during the winter lean months, so not preferred, but good when little of anything else green around. The deer also liked munching on my bamboo that stayed green through december-jan, but after the last hard winter, not much of that around anymore.

 

[mshm99]

Great question! I've been trying to get this answered for a long time. What are the for sure trees to hinge ? I do know that you are better off killing locusts off with tordon. If you don't you'll have them everywhere off the roots.

Oaks. OK. You touch on ash and elm and a few others. Also, you call deer grazers. I always called them browsers. My observations see deer seem to love browsing on osage orange leaves. Also some elms. I leave them be because of this. How about evergreens? They obviously provide great cover but are any also good for browsing? Are there any publications that speak to this? A list of all trees. Which ones should we nurture and which should we eradicate? Cottonwood? Willows? Hackberry? Black cherry? Locusts? Which maples? Land value might be affected and overall forest health too, but when I get the chainsaw out, which existing trees get whacked and which ones get a pass, followed by planting priorities in any spaces that might get opened up.

 

[Sligh1]

Pine will get eaten but surely not a desired source. Only time I've even heard of cedars being eaten is in pretty dire conditions. I haven't seen them be eaten but maybe possible. Usually cedars is as close to bullet proof as u can get for deer not messing with them except for rubbing.
Trees with "little value" to deer would be: ash, hackberry, maple, hickory and others. I never completely eradicate because they have benefits to other animals & diversity is good in a forest. With that said - Iowas oak forests have been decimated in many areas and one of the goals of reap is getting back our oak acres. Many areas of white oak have been removed and replaced by "junk". A lot of this happened in the 30's. So- going hard on hickory, Elm, maple, etc is often appropriate. Each property needs a professional to evaluate your situation though. Almost all forests will need walnuts and oak freed and even the best will likely be filled with elm, ash, maple & worse- invasives like black locust, prickly ash, Chinese elm, etc, etc.
Sitting alone- there's little reason to go kill an ash, maple or cottonwood. I actually never do unless to hinge or create cover.
I do like Osage Orange. Countless good attributes. Some farmers don't like them and can get invasive but good for fruit, wood poles, leaves, cover, etc

 

[goatman]

Throw in ironwood,buckeye,hickory(though I leave some for squirrels),and honey locust. I have to many of them but deer do like the pods off them in late winter. Ash will all go by way of emerald ash borer. I like osage orange also. To many elm also so they get hinged. Have to leave them alive as when they contact dutch elm disease more mushrooms. Hackberry and maple of little value. In other words like Sligh said you have to leave something. Most of my timber is lacking in oaks.

 

[150 Class]

Pine will get eaten but surely not a desired source. Only time I've even heard of cedars being eaten is in pretty dire conditions. I haven't seen them be eaten but maybe possible. Usually cedars is as close to bullet proof as u can get for deer not messing with them except for rubbing.
Trees with "little value" to deer would be: ash, hackberry, maple, hickory and others. I never completely eradicate because they have benefits to other animals & diversity is good in a forest. With that said - Iowas oak forests have been decimated in many areas and one of the goals of reap is getting back our oak acres. Many areas of white oak have been removed and replaced by "junk". A lot of this happened in the 30's. So- going hard on hickory, Elm, maple, etc is often appropriate. Each property needs a professional to evaluate your situation though. Almost all forests will need walnuts and oak freed and even the best will likely be filled with elm, ash, maple & worse- invasives like black locust, prickly ash, Chinese elm, etc, etc.
Sitting alone- there's little reason to go kill an ash, maple or cottonwood. I actually never do unless to hinge or create cover.
I do like Osage Orange. Countless good attributes. Some farmers don't like them and can get invasive but good for fruit, wood poles, leaves, cover, etc

Throw in ironwood,buckeye,hickory(though I leave some for squirrels),and honey locust. I have to many of them but deer do like the pods off them in late winter. Ash will all go by way of emerald ash borer. I like osage orange also. To many elm also so they get hinged. Have to leave them alive as when they contact dutch elm disease more mushrooms. Hackberry and maple of little value. In other words like Sligh said you have to leave something. Most of my timber is lacking in oaks.

Thanks and thanks. Just looking to get started, round #2 for me. Where do we start? Getting rid of the least desirable trees, in order, and keeping the best. Maybe plant some desirable ones in spots that might get opened up.

My goals are #1, forest health, #2, long term value, and #3, deer, short and long term.

So, oaks are good, all of them, leave them, with maybe the exception of black oaks? We have very few hickory so I figure they aren't hurting anything either. Quite a few black walnut, but they are hard on the other trees. Other than the best quality trees, looking into the future, a few of them might get dropped. I already started this with the walnuts in round #1. Our forest is overrun with hard maples. Are you telling me to get rid of most of them? Something wiped out most of our elms just a few years ago so I'm not too worried about them. I also agree about the ash, I'll see where we end up after the emerald ash borer so I will let mother nature do what it will for a few years before I step in.

Again, on the evergreens, I always thought dbltree said the white pines were a whitetail magnet? Maybe white cedar too? Norway spruce and red cedar not so much so they were easier to establish for cover? I'm not too worried about adding any of them to the mix, just curious I guess.

 

[Sligh1]

I don't have hard maple in my area. No whitetail value but it does have other value. U could kill them if competing with oaks or if u want to thicken an area or hinge. I'd pick the worst quality ones & cut away.
White pine, etc - no way i can plant down here unless major fencing and cedars accomplish same goal- cover. They will eat pines, not cedars. Them eating line is not a good thing though- it's just gonna kill the tree. When they get too mature they really are not much benefit anyways so I just don't do em. Norway spruce a step up but I personally don't mess with those either. Good shrub variety & cedars (and fruit trees for food) will be much better.
I'd free up all your premium oaks. All with good straight trunks and good crowns. U really need to know your trees when u start killing oaks. U will need to kill some if they are too thick to pick the best and u need a lot of knowledge and experience to do this. Get a pro to mark them for u. Hickory is fine. Just not when they get too thick. Shagbark has benefits to squirrels, bats, etc and Timber value. Bitternut is worthless IMO. Elm is worthless IMO (if in large #) and Dutch elm will kill em anyways usually. I would free up premium walnut and even decent ones if nothing else good near them. They are hard on other trees from chemical release but more the reason there isn't others around is many trees won't grow where walnuts grow. Most others will be maple, buckeye, swamp oak & some others. I'd still get rid of elms, buckeye, maples around the walnuts.
Locust- preference issue... Can get outta control & I thin em but the pods are good. I don't want too many, especially near my fields but some in the timber are fine and deer do like em. If u have vast areas of junk- direct seed or plant desireable trees but protect em. If u get big openings u could load em with oaks u don't have a lot of, persimmon, apple/pear in big openings, etc.

 

[Sligh1]

Can start anytime. I start jan 11 . Day after season ends its balls to the wall.

 

[JayEC]

Goatman and Sligh are dead on with where to start. Give a call to the State Forester in your District and spend part of a day with him walking your woods. Part of their job is to spend time on private land helping to improve timber stands. They are allowed to spend up to 5 days a year with you. If you have limited time, start with mulberry, locust, and other invasive species such as honey suckle. You could even get those done before meeting with the forester. They can help by marking which trees you need to cut down to release better more valuable oaks, walnuts, cherries, etc. Good luck, it is a lot of work but pretty rewarding when you see the improvement.

 

[Daver]

I echo the advice already given to consult with a forester or trained timber man prior to taking a chainsaw into your timber and getting aggressive, etc. TSI done right is the best thing you can do to help your property, but TSI done wrong is possibly the worst thing you can do too. So be sure to get the right understanding/advice before beginning.

Another tree though that you can't go wrong on in terms of knocking them out is ironwood, which is pretty common in many southern Iowa timbers. I asked a forester once what ironwood was good for and after thinking about it for a few seconds he said, "Dulling your chainsaw blade." I got a chuckle out of that, but I think he was right too.

 

[mshm99]

I've got a bunch of sycamores. Shut they get dropped for beds?

 

[Sligh1]

I've got a bunch of sycamores. Shut they get dropped for beds?

I do not "prefer" a sycamore but like them, like many trees with no whitetail benefit, for diversity and other animals. For example, sycamores are attractive for turkey roosting. If they are thick- sure, take some out. Competing with premium oaks- yep, get rid of them. So ya, u can thin them but I would not put them in a category needing eradication or non-native invasive. They r a nice tree in balanced #'s but I'll take an oak or walnut over them.

 

[mshm99]

Thanks Sligh. In certain sections, they dominate,so I'll thin them to 10 large ones an acre. They are good for target practice shooting the fuzzy seeds .

 

[eiowaarcher]

I have a spot on my farm that is about 95% walnut trees. There is a good variety of sizes but I would like something more. I want that 7-8 acre piece thicker and a better variety of trees. How do I accomplish this? Can you hinge cut walnuts to help thicken it up or do I clear cut a few spots and plant new varieties? Or both methods? What do I plant for trees?

 

[IowaBowHunter1983]

I have a spot on my farm that is about 95% walnut trees. There is a good variety of sizes but I would like something more. I want that 7-8 acre piece thicker and a better variety of trees. How do I accomplish this? Can you hinge cut walnuts to help thicken it up or do I clear cut a few spots and plant new varieties? Or both methods? What do I plant for trees?

Not sure how big they are or if money is a concern to you, but walnut trees are worth some serious cash. I see their value climbing even higher in years to come as there is a disease attacking them out west.

 

[chipterp]

Not sure how big they are or if money is a concern to you, but walnut trees are worth some serious cash. I see their value climbing even higher in years to come as there is a disease attacking them out west.

Veneer quality very large walnut trees are worth good money. I really hate the way realtors portray timber value on a tract. We have a ton of what we thought were large valuable walnut trees on our ground. I learned a lot walking around with a forester for a few hours. Maybe in another 20 years they will be worth something at least the few actual veneer quality ones.

 

[Sligh1]

I have a spot on my farm that is about 95% walnut trees. There is a good variety of sizes but I would like something more. I want that 7-8 acre piece thicker and a better variety of trees. How do I accomplish this? Can you hinge cut walnuts to help thicken it up or do I clear cut a few spots and plant new varieties? Or both methods? What do I plant for trees?

I wouldn't mess with walnuts unless you're with a non-biased pro like a forester or someone with a lot of expertise. Big dollars are involved in a lot of these situations and people can make some bad mistakes or talked into some bad suggestions.
Loggers are gonna talk you into taking your veneer 18-24" DBH trees and I wouldn't touch em until they get around 25" DBH+ unless they are going to fall in creek or something. I'd take lumber quality logs down to 18 or 19" DBH. You need a conservative (IMO) forester in there for sure.
In answer to your question, you can cut/cull/kill/hinge some walnuts. Just like any tree - they will grow in clusters (which you are explaining) with premium trees all the way down to junk. Of course the idea would be to kill off the poorest quality ones - thinning those - that are competing with premium quality trees. Like anything, they can grow too thick and thinning them can be done but you need a careful and trained eye. I wouldn't "ONLY LOG IT" and I'd assess if you have mature, marketable timber ready to come out and combine that with the TSI & thinning. This can also be cutting some crappy walnut that are competing with other species you like (oak, etc). So, even if you take some mature trees, you are freeing up the younger but future veneer cash crop. All this will make your land a lot thicker which is your goal from the way it sounds and what I would want too.

*Yes, Chipterp is right - a lot of folks, just in general, get told they have a "gold mine" for walnut inventory. I would say 80% or more of these situations I walk for my buddies interested in a parcel or that bought one - are 10-20 years out on most their "great trees" & they were told different when they bought it. Could be an honest mistake, lack of knowledge or someone portraying something incorrectly. Lot of folks get screwed on trees in so many regards. An even greater amount let their forests go to "waste", "top end it" or don't manage it properly or at all for that matter. Find a true conservative expert who will shoot you straight will be a huge benefit short & long term (for generations & huge chunks of future timber value).

 

[IowaBowHunter1983]

Good call on the conservative expert. This is off topic, but in my experience timber buyers/loggers make used car salesman seem like saints. I am sure there are a few honest ones out there, but I have seen way too many slimy ones.

 

[LoessHillsArcher]

Managing cedars

Anyone ever run into spots they hunt where the cedars get too thick that deer don't use them? I'm curious how others manage the cedars on their farms, share if you have some ideas.

I love cedars, they make great bedding and wildlife cover but when they get too thick, they're junk in my eyes. We've got a few spots like that on our farm and I did some cedar management this weekend.

The situation here is we've got some big, tall old cedars that have (had... ) lots of dead branches on the bottom half.

They're tallll

Those dead branches make the timber almost impassable. So I'd go up to each tree and cut off every dead branch I could reach and open up the area so deer could at least walk through here... and ideally we hope this makes some good bedding for them

A cleaned up cedar. After cutting the branches I'd drag them all away and make brush piles for the wildlife and something for the deer to bed behind

Some cedars on the open ridge top, after I cut down the branches but before I drug them away...

And after dragging the branches away.

Now this spot is accessible for the deer and seems like a great spot for a big buck to lay down. He's got over head cover, a brush line at his back made up of the branches I cut from the cedars, and a great look out at any danger coming his way. In this picture you can see the pile of brush I made towards the back (left)

And here's the view looking out of this "bed"

Another spot near by that from the outside, you can see the thick screen of cedars that was nearly impossible to walk through

but I cut a hole into the thicket...

And then once inside I started cleaning up the bottom dead branches

This spot had WAY too many cedars so I went ahead and cut some off completely and they just hung there, stuck in the canopy of the rest of the cedars

This is what one tree looked like before I cut it... can you imagine what this entire hillside looked like before I cut!? It was nuts how thick it was. Virtually a waste land for deer, they never stepped foot in here

Ideally we'd like to see some more grass or other plants get growing under the cedars but we may have to girdle and kill some more cedars inorder to get enough light to the ground to achieve that

With the cut dead limbs I'd make some big brush piles, which are also great for wildlife

And the last pictures for today; on the left side of this ridge I hadn't done any cutting yet...

Compare the above picture of the left, uncut side of this ridge top to the below picture which is on the right side of the ridge and I did cut. You can actually see into the timber and easy get around. Deer aren't up for a challenge when it comes to finding a place to bed, they'd rather take the path of least resistance to get to their destination. By cutting the bottom dead branches we didn't loose the thermal cover the cedars provide but did allow the deer to get into, and under the cedars to lay down

 

[gundog870]

Love that Jordan! When My forester and I walked mine, he recommended that I do exactly what you did. Just open up some areas by killing off some of the cedar. My only negative is how steep my sidehills are that hold the cedars. Need to find s few benches and go to work.