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JNRBRONC
Well-Known Member
I follow a couple of ML forums. From what I read, T7 is more potent than Pyrodex, so 100 grains of it is somewhere around 15% more potent than 100 grains of Pyrodex. I have also heard that American Pioneer is fairly hygroscopic (picks up water, leading to misfires) but shoots really clean. Sorry for the ancedotal information, as I got tired of the whole Pyrodex/T7/etc and upgraded to the Savage ML10II shooting AA5744. I have never looked back.
scout
New Member
I'm pleased with T7. I use the powder mostly. The pellets are far more expensive when you look at how many loads you get out of a jug of loose compared to a box of pellets.
Just shot the new NEF Huntsman in a local BP shoot today. Tied for first then lost in a "shootout" (Should have taken the Encore!
)
Just shot the new NEF Huntsman in a local BP shoot today. Tied for first then lost in a "shootout" (Should have taken the Encore!
iabowhunter
New Member
Another vote for Triple 7. I have been shooting the pellets with great results. I am going to try the loose powder this year.
T7 pellets here. Much nicer than pyrodex but I have never tried the Pioneer powder. T7 is more powerfull than pyrodex but I dont think that transfers to the pellets. I believe the pellets are deliberately undersized to match the power of pyrodex pellets and keep people from blowing themselves up.
5 of us are shooting T7 so far and no misfires yet. Very easy to clean up and no "stink".
5 of us are shooting T7 so far and no misfires yet. Very easy to clean up and no "stink".
150 Class
Well-Known Member
I sure was hoping someone would have had some first hand experience with the American Pioneer powder. Some ML sites claim it is easier to clean and less corrosive. On those other sites, many like it but there are a few who don't but the same can be said about T7. I guess I might have to do my own independent testing.
In my opinion, the T7 is OK but no better than Pyro. One thing it sometimes has that Pyro didn't is the infamous "T7 crud ring", a ring of crud after the shot just above the breech plug but something it doesn't have is the also infamous rotten egg smell (sulfur or H2S smell). It takes less powder to get the same energy but as was already said, the pellets are made such that they are the energy equivalent of the Pyrodex pellets. I don't find T7 to be easier or harder to clean than Pyro. It still needs cleaned and still is corrosive (some claim more corrosive than Pyro). If you don't get the crud ring, I think you will like T7 better than your Pyrodex just because of the lack of stink. It might be a month or two, but I'll let you know what I think of American Pioneer.
In my opinion, the T7 is OK but no better than Pyro. One thing it sometimes has that Pyro didn't is the infamous "T7 crud ring", a ring of crud after the shot just above the breech plug but something it doesn't have is the also infamous rotten egg smell (sulfur or H2S smell). It takes less powder to get the same energy but as was already said, the pellets are made such that they are the energy equivalent of the Pyrodex pellets. I don't find T7 to be easier or harder to clean than Pyro. It still needs cleaned and still is corrosive (some claim more corrosive than Pyro). If you don't get the crud ring, I think you will like T7 better than your Pyrodex just because of the lack of stink. It might be a month or two, but I'll let you know what I think of American Pioneer.
JNRBRONC
Well-Known Member
Again, reporting more of what I have read than personal experience. T7 (gluconic acid= sugar?) can form a crud ring as it "carmelizes" from heat as it is ignited/burns. Some say that if you find a "cooler" ignition source you can minimize the crude ring. I found this via google (stolen from another BB):
For reference, here is the order of primer strength in increasing order:
Rem 209
Fed 209
CCI 209
CCI 209M
CCI 209SC
Win 209
FIO 209
Fed 209A
This is from the Accurate Arms data book 1998--page 56
I have heard rumors of a "cool" Remington 209-4 primer that was used for .410 shotgun shells. One rumor said it was discontinued, another said it was being brought back for the T7 muzzleloader crowd (at a increased price).
For reference, here is the order of primer strength in increasing order:
Rem 209
Fed 209
CCI 209
CCI 209M
CCI 209SC
Win 209
FIO 209
Fed 209A
This is from the Accurate Arms data book 1998--page 56
I have heard rumors of a "cool" Remington 209-4 primer that was used for .410 shotgun shells. One rumor said it was discontinued, another said it was being brought back for the T7 muzzleloader crowd (at a increased price).
Monsterbuck
Active Member
That would be the Remington Kleanbore primers and you can get them at your local Wal-Mart. I haven't tried them yet but they are supposed to eliminate or at least reduce that T7 ring.
avidhunter
New Member
I intend to try APP this Jan., and will keep you all posted
I've been happy with T7, but would like less residue and mess to clean up
I've been happy with T7, but would like less residue and mess to clean up
scout
New Member
I've compared the Kleanbore primers with CCI's and found alot less blowback from the Kleanbore's. Also the dreaded crud ring was much less noticeable.
I used T/C #13 borecleaner after 3 shots. (one patch passed one time, followed by a dry one) I found the sabots slide in easy with no crud build-up.
I used T/C WonderLube 1000 plus for many years. I stopped using it completely when a switched to T7.
I read the "why" it causes crud and grime but the bottom line is the two don't work well together. I went back to the ol'stand by. CRISCO. Working great, with easy loads and little or no crud ring.
Also, Crisco works well as a bullet lube in cold weather, where as the T/C lube is to hard.
I used T/C #13 borecleaner after 3 shots. (one patch passed one time, followed by a dry one) I found the sabots slide in easy with no crud build-up.
I used T/C WonderLube 1000 plus for many years. I stopped using it completely when a switched to T7.
I read the "why" it causes crud and grime but the bottom line is the two don't work well together. I went back to the ol'stand by. CRISCO. Working great, with easy loads and little or no crud ring.
Also, Crisco works well as a bullet lube in cold weather, where as the T/C lube is to hard.
I don't know anything about APP except what little I have read. I have used 777 in both the pellets and the loose powder and have mixed feelings. The pellets I used didn't seem to have the same ump that the Pyrodex pellets have and the same bulet with 2 pellets of either shot to different points of impact. The loose powder, how ever seems to perform some what beter than loose Pyrodex. One thing I have noticed is the loose powder of either leaves much more crap in the barrel than the pellets and makes loading the 3rd or 4th load much harder than with the pellets. I will proably continue to use the Pyrodex pellets when I'm hunting. I also have used Wonder Lube for years and that may be part of my problem with loose powder, but I belive that I will continue to use it especially after cleaning. As for cleaning you still need to do it and do it right what ever powder you use. I have used bore cleaner, Windex, and Fantastic to swab the bore while hunting, but afterwards I still want to use hot water to scrub the barrel, breach plug, and the bolt. Then while the barrel is still hot and dry run Wonder Lube through it so it will flow well. After it cools run a dry patch to clear the excess lube then grease the plug and reassemble, and spray the bolt lightly with Rem oil or WD40. Works for me.
msalow
New Member
I started using American Pioneer last year and love it to deathit shoot good in my knight has great acc. and is very easy to clean but what I like about it the most is I can shoot easily 50 shots at the range and have no problem loading I tried the 777 pellets and after a couple of shots had to beat the bullet in to get it to seat. I talked to a friend that is a rep for Knight and they use 777 as it is more consistent in voulosity than APP but he said that APP was a great clean powder but don't use 777 pellents for the loading problems
I want to try the Jim Schockey preimum APP powder but haven't found any yet
hope this helps
I want to try the Jim Schockey preimum APP powder but haven't found any yet
hope this helps
Baby-G
PMA Member
Triple 7 Pellets is more consistant, but American Pioneer Sticks (same as pellets)is much cleaner and a gives you a little faster velocity. I like the consistance of Triple 7 and that is what I currently use. I can shoot a sub- 1 inch group at 100 yards (4 shots), 150grains of pellets with the Hornady 300grain SST out of my T/C Encore. Unbelievable ballistics, 2050fps lined up dead on at 175 yards it is 4 inches low at 200yards and 9 inches low at 250 yards
, and the highest point is 3.9 inches at 130 yards.
I bought the APP sticks last year and have yet to try them. I'm not clear on how they work since they are square. These are the 50 grain sticks so I would use two. They are also tapered from one end to the other. So my concern is how tight do I seat the bullet, if I put them in small end to small end would they possibly break down from the pressure of seating the bullet. If anybody could help me out on this. I really want to try it but putting square (rectangular) things in round holes baffles me.
Thanks
baby-G, I get similar performance from my Encore with 150gr of T7 pellets and 250 Hornady SST's. Dead on at 100 yards went about 5" low at 200. Somewhere around 2200 to 2300fps if I recall. I quit telling people how small the group was at 200 because they just looked at me like a liar
. That combo really shoots in the TC.
bjkpharmd
New Member
I'll give another report after I have shot a few of these- I ended up buying the APP sticks. As far as loading them- this was on the FAQs of their site:
Q: I want to use American Pioneer™ STICKS™ Compressed Charges in my muzzleloading rifle and I see that one end is smaller than the other. Which end of the stick should be loaded in the barrel first?
A: The tapered shape of the American Pioneer™ STICKS™ Compressed Charges makes for easier loading. Load by putting in the the smaller end in first and pressing with your thumb. Load your projectile on top of that and push to the bottom of the bore using your ramrod.
Q: I want to use American Pioneer™ STICKS™ Compressed Charges in my muzzleloading rifle and I see that one end is smaller than the other. Which end of the stick should be loaded in the barrel first?
A: The tapered shape of the American Pioneer™ STICKS™ Compressed Charges makes for easier loading. Load by putting in the the smaller end in first and pressing with your thumb. Load your projectile on top of that and push to the bottom of the bore using your ramrod.