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Whose Middle-class??

turtlshell

PMA Member
I told myself I'd refrain from getting involved with the politics...because elections always boil down to picking the least bad. People who whole-heartedly agree with a candidate on every single issue are living a life somewhere other than reality.

At any rate after the debates the other night I can't help but feel compelled to say something about the middle-class and how they will be "unaffected" by Barack 'Robin-hood' Obama's economic/tax plan.

I'm that middle class american whose parents separated when I was young...I made it through highschool, and took out large loans to go to college. Probably partied too much while in college, but had enough sense put into me by my parents (at times even physically, but always deserving) to know right from wrong...but when you're a 18-22 year old punk sometimes you say forget the parents and have to find things out for yourself...anyways I had enough sense to do just well enough to graduate in 4.5 years. I was the first person in my family to graduate college. My parents work hard and have always worked hard...something they passed off to me even though I now have a fairly easy job. I awake most days and go to work (sometimes fishing & hunting take priority) for 8-10 hours. I earn enough to pay all my bills and I even have a few pennies leftover to purchase bow tags and a few groceries. I live paycheck to paycheck like most of the people I know. I was smart enough to research the differences between fixed rate mortgages and ARM's and made and educated decision to go with a fixed rate even though i could've lived it up (well above my means) with the ARM. I have a lot of my salary dinged for this tax, that tax and the awesome health insurance state employees of Iowa receive. Without the student loans I could really be living the good life.

AT ANY RATE, I tell you my saga because I want to point out that nothing has been handed to me. I've worked hard to get where i'm at even if I diverted down the wrong dead-end a few times to get here. I don't make anywhere near the $250,000-magical income figure of 'Robin-hood's plan so I'm going to be "unaffected" right. WELL NOT EXACTLY, at least not in my opinion. With what I've read and understood concerning Robinhood's plan, is that those fortunate enough to be knocking down more than a quarter of million a year is that he's literally going to steal from the rich and give to the poor. POOR in this case is all the people who are unwilling to help themselves. The people who abuse all the welfare programs and live off of my taxes and your taxes and are unwilling to change. They're unwilling to change, which is probably why they're going to vote for CHANGE.

OK so my point, is that us middle class people aren't "unaffected" by robinhood's plan...WE'RE COMPLETELY OFF THE RADAR, TOTALLY UNCONSIDERED...we've got jobs, we pay taxes, we buy goods, we're the working class. Why is it that someone who is in the working class and has a job that affords them a handsome income of more than $250K should get a deduction to help spread their wealth to those who won't help themselves?

Sure the guy can out speak McCain and I certainly don't agree with a lot of what McCain has promised, but in my opinion more of my beliefs are protected by McCain or McSame as some call him than they are with the fancy-talker RobinHood.

At this point i should just highlight and delete, but I figure it's worth putting out for conversation.
 
The big bad (assuming he gets elected) is if he would get a super majority in the house and senate. The right will not be able to stop anything. If that happens fringe will be hi-speed getting everything they can passed cause eventually enough tax paying American's like yourself turtle, are gonna say enough is enough and the country is gonna come back right. We hope anyway.
 
Dude, the first few paragraphs of this nearly mirror that same time line in my life.

I agree with you man....I can't even start talking about that non working class that are saps on society without making my BP skyrocket. The average joe that works his ass off and does what he's supposed to do gets bent, if you're a worthless tick you get all the handouts you can possibly take without hardly having to lift a finger to help yourself and now it will only get worse "for us" or "better" for them if Robin Hood is elected.

My mind was made up before the last debate and I couldn't stomach listening to any more than about 10 minutes of it the other night and it's because of reasons just like you pointed out.

I'm voting for the POW because I know he'll do what's right for the military that I'm part of and that's a lot of what is driving my vote.
 
I hear you Turtl and Shoot! Man, I'm in the exact same boat! Nice to hear some sensible people in the same boat express similar view to my own. Thanks!

Just remember...the democrats hate it when you tell them that you'll be cancelling their vote /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
 
Just got this in an email.....fitting for this post I think....especially #8 (as related to TurtLs post).


13 Reasons to Vote Democrat

1. I'm voting Democrat because I believe the government will do a better job of spending the money I earn than I would.

2. I'm voting Democrat because freedom of speech is fine as long as nobody is offended by it.

3. I'm voting Democrat because when we pull out of Iraq I trust that the bad guys will stop what they're doing because they now think we're good people.

4. I'm voting Democrat because I believe that people who can't tell us if it will rain on Friday CAN tell us that the polar ice caps will melt away in ten years if I don't start driving a Prius.

5. I'm voting Democrat because I want to keep paying to keep all death row inmates alive.

6. I'm voting Democrat because I want to keep my borders wide open because we don't have enough crime here already.

7. I'm voting Democrat because our taxes are not high enough.

8. I'm voting Democrat because I think every person is entitled to FREE education, FREE insurance, FREE food, FREE housing and any other things that I have worked for all my life.

9. I'm voting Democrat because I believe that business should not be allowed to make profits for themselves. They need to break even and give the rest away to the government for redistribution as THEY see fit.

10. I'm voting Democrat because I believe three or four pointy headed elitist liberals need to rewrite the Constitution every few days to suit some fringe kooks who would NEVER get their agendas past the voters.

11. I'm voting Democrat because I believe that, when the terrorists don't have to hide from us over there, when they come over here, I don't want to have any guns in the house to fight them off with.

12. I'm voting Democrat because I love the fact that I can now marry whatever I want. I've decided to marry my horse.

13. I'm voting Democrat because I believe oil companies' profits of 4% on a gallon of gas are obscene but the government taxing the same gallon of gas at 15% isn't.
 
Paycheck to paycheck..... thats the story of my life....
cept add a few over drafts in there and i fit that bill to the T.

i have an inexpensive house on a fixed rate with payments we can afford. if not for my job, i would only hunt a few weekends a month.

but i do the best i can to provide for my family, live within our means and pursue our passions to the best of our abilities.

I will vote for the guy who best represents my interests....

thats NOT Barak Saddam Huissen Obama Bin Laden
 
And it does not get any easier Thomas. Wait till that little guy gets involved in sports and school activities. I think you have it right by making an income doing something you enjoy. I work a job that allows me to be home early every day to be able to spend time with my kids and attend games and coach baseball teams. I have had jobs that have paid more, but at this time it is more inportant to be part of my kids lives. I worked a job that paid very well, but I hated it and had to work some saturdays. I missed my son's first touchdown, yeah it was only flag football at that time, but I was not there to share his excitement and said to myself that it won't happen again. I know some parents don't have a choice, but I feel for the kids that I have coached that have not had parents in the stands to share there excitement after a great play, hit, or win. I feel i have all my life to make money, but only a short time that my children will be kids.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fatboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...but at this time it is more important to be part of my kids lives. I feel I have all my life to make money, but only a short time that my children will be kids.</div></div>


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Lets compare the two candidates shall we... War Hero, or LAWYER... Jee, real tough decision there... I served in the Military, I know what kind of metal Military Men are made of. Thats the kind of Man I am voting for to be our Commander In Cheif. Just as the President must have been born an American Citizen, I think it should be a requirement that to be a candidate for President you must have served in a branch of the military.

John McCain's health plan does work, and I know it because its the kind of heath plan I have at work. My employeer gives us so much $$$ a month in our paycheck for health care. If we take the family plan from our employeer, the premium is deducted pre-tax. Or, we can pay taxes on it, and take the money and go find our own plan somewhere else. So, when my wife worked at Toyota, they gave her a single coverage, she could pay more to up her coverage to family coverage. Which we did, and wound up with around $300 extra a month. Most of my co-workers are older and so coverage at my work is more expensive than a place like Toyota that has a bigger bargening group. The older democrats at my work get mad that I take my insurance money and run cause it makes their costs even higher. Hey, why should I have to pay for their health care. People that should have retired stay their and work just so they can keep that great health care.
 
The whole idea that you can take money from "Business", and it won't affect the rest of us is absurd. Is Business going to say,"Oh,,thank you Gov,here is my money,I'll just take lower profits". No Business, will either lay workers off, move to another country for cheaper workers, or raise their prices for us all. It is common sense, that I guess some Politicians lack.
 
I Can't believe I'm doing this. Maybe I'm just not understanding the full view, so please do educate me, and I don't mean by coping and pasting off a website.

Here's what I see. I pay 12K a year on a shotty ins plan, I have searched I would like to know where Mccain comes up with an avg of $5800. I know alot of this is co involved because the single guys actually get money added to their paychecks and have the same coverage. $12 isn't chump change when he is talking about taxing that.

With the economy the way it is I know Pro-life/Pro choice shouldn't be high on the list but it is. Why can't someone go middle ground. Don't get me wrong everyone should be able to make their own decision to live, but tell that to the incest or rape victim that has to raise that child. Guess it's a good thing alot of states have the safe haven going on.

I don't look at it as sharing the wealth, I see it as sharing the cost. If your making over 1/4 mil a year, how freakin high on the hog do you need to live to be happy. Absolutely that they deserve it for being smarter or more educated, but give me a break. If it takes a new 60K vehicle every couple of yrs, a trip to the islands every year they've got bigger problems then I. From what I have observed, you get more spoiled little rich kids then you do well rounded hard working Americans from those families. Don't get me wrong there are alot of good people that make alot of money and are down to earth and gracious for what they have, I'm not saying they are all bad.

I know you give them an inch and they take a mile theory. I don't need a semi-auto anything to hunt or protect my family with. I could be outdated but as far as I know a good solid bolt action is more accurate than a semi anyhow, bout like a wheel gun or a semi, wheelie is more accurate. Be honest do you really have to pull the trigger 3 or 4 times to hit a bird on the wing, or take more than one bird out of the flock with-out pumping. I say practice more. It could start with the semi's and escalate, it did in other countries and crime rate has soared, so I would like to think Sam is smarter than that.

Being a Veteran and a Sportsman I know something somewhere says I should be Republican, but I'm not afraid to admit as of know I'm voting Democratic. You can throw all the slurs, and cliches out there you want it won't offend me, I'm not a die-hard. I can be persuaded to the other side, please post me the facts not propoganda if I am looking at things the wrong way.
 
It is hard for me to understand why anyone should get a free ride? By that I mean why does anyone get off paying NO taxes? I don't care if you make $5 a year or $5 million... you should pay a portion of your income to taxes or they should totally eliminate the income tax and instead charge a federal consumption tax. By that I mean everyone pays a tax on everything they purchase. Everyone in this country enjoys the freedoms guaranteed to us by our constitution, military protection from our enemies, etc. So why are we not all paying for it.

From what I have read, 40 million Americans do not pay ANY personal income taxes. If the proposed tax changes are passed through Congress during the next presidency... these same people will get anywhere from around $2,500 (McCain plan) to $5,500 (Obama plan) in the form of a personal check. These numbers come from today's USA Today newspaper.

My blood pressure has been up all day since I read this... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif
 
Bottom line is, there are wealthy that rip off the system, there are poor who do the same. Humans are human.It just gets a little scary when Gov starts to take more and more of your earnings to redistribute. In the process alot get wasted, who knows where it goes in a huge buacracy? The human heart needs to be changed and governed by something more than self interest. Selfishness,,we all struggle with. In the eyes of people in other lands, living in cardboard huts, I am extravagant, in my two room cabin! and I do have a two room cabin.
 
McCain's health care package is poor at best and I'm not sure what exactly is the best idea for this complex arena. However, McCains plan is far better than the ultimate goal of the democrats. That being nationalized health care (the Clinton plan). In other words, they would like it if big brother took over health care as well. You as a citizen are not smart enough to decide what free market option is best for you. "We" know best! Don't make me puke. Nationalized healthcare huh? Ask Canada how well they like that? Lets just say it doesn't provide much incentive for providing the best health care in the world.
 
As to anyone saying that people who vote democrat aren't hard working thats simply not true. There are millions of hard-working folk who vote democrat. However, what I would specualte to say is that a vast majority of dead-beat, lazy types vote democrat as well.....that tells you something. All my opinion of course.
 
My random rambling thoughts...

Release Hunter and Boacephus,

Perhaps I could suggest some places to find facts. First, I have a news flash, THE FREE MARKET WORKS!!! (see 18th and 19th century economic history, not good!) When you punish the top 20% of wage earners, you remove the incentive to succeed and consequently erode the free market. This has a contrary effect in that it builds a minute ruling upper class and a huge lower class, virtually eliminating the midle class. The middle class is built and sustained by the drive to reach the top tax bracket, not by cuting lower brackets and increasing the higher brackets. Perhaps you do not feel these are facts, in my opinion they are and at the very least, it is crital thinking.

Obama, Pelosi, Reid, and the like are threatening our very way of life. I am a traditional democrat who has worked for the party for several years and I can tell you, these are bad people. I have met them all. I quit working for the party about 8 years ago because it was hijacked by the very wealthy radical liberals. Their agenda is simple, gay marriage, income redistribution, gun control, and the advancement of their wealthy allies. I quickly learned, if I did not agree, they did not care.

As far as Barry Obama, Robin Hood's the name and income redistribution is the game. Barry and his peeps are not taking any prisoners. If you feel you are going to benefit, I can suggest you should research the tax plans of other countries. Germany, the Netherlands, and the UK for starters. His "plans" are nothing new. We are the most prosperous country in the world for a reason. For further economic research, you can check into Adam Smith's invisible hand.

Boacephus, I can fix you up with a very solid insurance plan for much less than you are paying now. My sister is a very user friendly agent and she knows her stuff. I would be more than happy to send you her name if you wish.

I travl a bit and work for a European company, I can tell you, this is the most wonderful place in the world. My employer has been a manufacturer and distributor in different areas of the US for 55 years. Our senior management is impressed with the midwest work ethic. They have been in the same depressed areas Barry claims to champion and they were not able to get people to work, let alone get any work out of them. I guess the my dads old addage fits, "I fight poverty, I work!" You need to ask yourself a question; If Barry reduces the incentive to work, why should any of us work?

I think McCain is a bit of a tool but in my opinion,he is the only option. As far as demanding facts from people, go research your own, don't hide behind that statement.
 
Release hunter, at no time did cornfed attack Obama or state that dems do not work, he only pointed out the obvious flaws in the democrat schemes.

I love it when the dems can constantly attack McCain and anyone he associated with, yet when someone points out obvious issues with Obama's "ideas" you take offense. Why are dems so sensitive to challenging Obama? Lets face it, the liberal media went after a plumbers assistant because he had the audacity to ask Barry a tough question; how dare he!
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: madplotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My random rambling thoughts...

Release Hunter and Boacephus,

Perhaps I could suggest some places to find facts. First, I have a news flash, THE FREE MARKET WORKS!!! (see 18th and 19th century economic history, not good!) When you punish the top 20% of wage earners, you remove the incentive to succeed and consequently erode the free market. This has a contrary effect in that it builds a minute ruling upper class and a huge lower class, virtually eliminating the midle class. The middle class is built and sustained by the drive to reach the top tax bracket, not by cuting lower brackets and increasing the higher brackets. Perhaps you do not feel these are facts, in my opinion they are and at the very least, it is crital thinking.

Obama, Pelosi, Reid, and the like are threatening our very way of life. I am a traditional democrat who has worked for the party for several years and I can tell you, these are bad people. I have met them all. I quit working for the party about 8 years ago because it was hijacked by the very wealthy radical liberals. Their agenda is simple, gay marriage, income redistribution, gun control, and the advancement of their wealthy allies. I quickly learned, if I did not agree, they did not care.

As far as Barry Obama, Robin Hood's the name and income redistribution is the game. Barry and his peeps are not taking any prisoners. If you feel you are going to benefit, I can suggest you should research the tax plans of other countries. Germany, the Netherlands, and the UK for starters. His "plans" are nothing new. We are the most prosperous country in the world for a reason. For further economic research, you can check into Adam Smith's invisible hand.

Boacephus, I can fix you up with a very solid insurance plan for much less than you are paying now. My sister is a very user friendly agent and she knows her stuff. I would be more than happy to send you her name if you wish.

I travl a bit and work for a European company, I can tell you, this is the most wonderful place in the world. My employer has been a manufacturer and distributor in different areas of the US for 55 years. Our senior management is impressed with the midwest work ethic. They have been in the same depressed areas Barry claims to champion and they were not able to get people to work, let alone get any work out of them. I guess the my dads old addage fits, "I fight poverty, I work!" You need to ask yourself a question; If Barry reduces the incentive to work, why should any of us work?

I think McCain is a bit of a tool but in my opinion,he is the only option. As far as demanding facts from people, go research your own, don't hide behind that statement. </div></div>

Very well spoken. Thank You

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