"Mature"?

[Gladiator]

I'm going out on a limb here and saying that there is more breeding done by 3 1/2 year olds than what you think. Great post loneranger.

Will definitely agree on this statement...

Older bucks can stay on lockdown for a couple days...what happens to all the other does during that time??

When big daddy is away............

 

[cedar creek]

You guys need to do some research...I just looked that up on the internet.
I agree..if you have only 3 1/2 year old and younger bucks in a given area the 3 1/2s will do the breeding.But if there is a few 4 1/2s and older the younger ones will not do very much breeding.
I also read somewhere the if a 1 1/2 year old buck does mount a doe that doe WILL NOT become impregnated.Its nature way of insureing that most of the does are bred by the dominate buck.

I've had many of years bowhunting from both treestands and the ground as research. And i've read more than i care to remember from so called scientific studies; etc. I can tell you most areas i have hunted in the last 25 or more years have had more than one 4 1/2 year old calling that area home. I would like to believe the dominate buck breeds the majority of the does in my area, but that doesn't happen. I've logged way too many hours on stand watching 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year old bucks breeding most of the does. I've watched older does fend off young bucks, but young does will breed with almost any buck that will mount them. There are just too many does to be bred in the 2 week rut period for a couple of dominate bucks to handle. Even in the 2nd and 3rd ruts many of the does are bred by younger bucks. I guess we would all be shooting dominate bucks if they would be trailing every hot doe in the woods!

 

[SaskGuy]

I look at 3 1/2 yr old bucks like teenagers, 4 1/2 yr old bucks as just becoming grown up. Where I live and hunt I'd say a buck doesn't appear mature until 5 1/2 at least. Luckily there are a good number of that age class and older around.

 

[loneranger]

That is great! That you have that many older bucks around. It all depends on your area. In my area lots of younger bucks get whacked, so 5 yr old is pretty rare.Not just my experience,,because I haven't been that long in Iowa, but talking to neighbors that have grown up in the area, it is not common to see old bucks.

 

[Thinkin Rut]

I've often wondered how many of the truly older bucks don't breed at all??

 

[archery95]

I guess I should throw away my book..."Ways of the Whitetail" by Leonard Lee Rue and get one written by Cedar Creek or Gladiator.
Just an example....If you have 900 acres with 40 does...12 bucks with 4 of those bucks being 4 1/2 or older and the rest being 3 1/2 and younger,the younger bucks won't breed 1/4 of the does.Why would they do all the fighting and other dominance things they do if it wasn't for the breeding privledges.All the older bucks won't be locked down at the same time and all the does don't come in eustrus at the same time.If you have a lot of does being bred by 3 1/2 year old and younger bucks in your area its because they are the dominate buck.In northern Missouri a lot of does are bred by 1 1/2 year old bucks because of the age structure.
Its hard to argue with people who are just stating an opinion without scientific facts.

 

[archery95]

Oh...by the way...I am 57 and have bowhunted for 35 years.I take vacation the whole month of November and average 10 hours a day on stand for probably 35-40 days per season and I doubt I have actually seen 10 bucks breed a doe in my life.Its hard for me to believe anyone has seen "LOTS" of does bred.Out of those 10 maybe 2 or 3 times I thought to myself "what is that dink doing breeding that doe".

 

[SaskGuy]

I've never seen a doe being bred.

 

[JBAGS]

Great post and info on this one!!

 

[bowmaker]

I think my question is what difference does it really make if most of the does are breed by 2, 3, 4, or 5 year old bucks? Isn't the net result still the same? We can all pretty easily tell the difference between a really young buck and a really old buck, but I really question how many hunters , in the field or woods, can actually tell the difference between a 4 1/2 or a 3 1/2 year old buck or between a 4 1/2 or a 5 1/2 year old deer? I know all the supposed signs like body size, or paunch, or nose shape, besides antler size, but how definitive are these signs as to age and especially in the field and in possible poor light and with adrenaline in the hunter's system? How many hunters have actually had a deer aged with teeth analysis and how many just think they know how old a buck actually is? The only sure way I know is through tooth analysis, but I could be wrong, and I doubt that many are actually sent in each year.

 

[loneranger]

You are right bowmaker. To get some idea I had my teeth sent in and am waiting for the answer. The biologist said what you have said. Many hunters think their bucks are actually older than they are.

 

[Daver]

Well, I don't have scientific fact to back me up and I have never personally witnessed the actual breeding act...by a deer.

But after sitting through dozens of November bow hunts through the years, I will offer these opinions...

1. In years past I hunted areas that rarely had bucks that lived to maturity, whether you consider maturity 3-1/2, 4-1/2 or older. Virtually any buck seen was at best a 2-1/2 and then you better not say anything because all the neighbors would gang up on him and he would be hanging in someone's front yard a few days later, no joke. Additionally, the buck to doe ratio was such that there is no way in my mind that one or two mature bucks could "catch up" to all of the does in the "magic window", even if they were there.

So whatever breeding went on had to be predominantly from 1-1/2's or or the occasional 2-1/2's or there weren't going to be any fawns in the spring. (FYI, I am intentionally discounting the potential for aliens to have landed on the earth and had their way with the female deer in the area. )

2. Having now hunted an area for about 10 years that has a much healthier age structure, in that there are multiple bucks "around" that would be at least 3-1/2 years old, I will say that oftentimes when a detectably "hot" doe is spotted there is a mature buck in her wake. But not always, I have seen little guys hot on the trail too, with no big guy in sight. Now whether they ended up "cashing in" or not I cannot say, but from where I sat, things were looking, umm, well... "up" for junior when I last saw them.

So my sense is that some younger bucks are breaking through every year, even where then are older bucks present.

I think that if an older buck catches up to a doe at "that time" he is very likely to have "dibs" v. the little guys, but I still believe that some young ones breed every year too.

 

[Gladiator]

I guess I should throw away my book..."Ways of the Whitetail" by Leonard Lee Rue and get one written by Cedar Creek or Gladiator.

Archery 95 - my post was never meant as an insult or one to draw attention but only add to the discussion. I've never claimed to be an expert, nor would anyone want to read a book from me.

In other words, I don't think my post warranted a mockery by yourself in your defense of your book.

 

[bloodhoundhandler]

maybe it depends on what kind of mood the doe is in

 

[SaskGuy]

I personally don't know how you'd even get "scientific fact" on a wild deer herd. I'm sure studies have been donw but I'd also doubt they were done on a "wild deer herd with avg. age structure". If I were to bet I'd also guess the younger dudes were getting more action than some researcher may give them credit for.

I think daver summed it up well with his last couple points.

I'll also add that I believe many people, including myself, often misinterpret a bucks age. We're to look for certain traits and I personally could chuck everyone of them out where I live except barrel chests and short looking legs on older bucks, none of the others fit all deer to a tee.

 

[cedar creek]

Oh...by the way...I am 57 and have bowhunted for 35 years.I take vacation the whole month of November and average 10 hours a day on stand for probably 35-40 days per season and I doubt I have actually seen 10 bucks breed a doe in my life.Its hard for me to believe anyone has seen "LOTS" of does bred.Out of those 10 maybe 2 or 3 times I thought to myself "what is that dink doing breeding that doe".

I hate to admit it, but i'm older than you, and have been bowhunting since 1968. If you have only seen 10 bucks breed does in 35 years of hunting; you are sitting in the wrong places during the rut. I don't care what you believe. The fact that you still take the written word as gospel tells me you have alot to learn; no matter what age.

 

[cedar creek]

Oh; by the way. I've been retired for the last 7 years, and hunt every hour i can!

 

[PointBlank]

One thing that I don't believe has been thrown out there yet is that you must consider that a 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 year old buck certainly has the potential to be passing on tremendous genetics that may have been passed onto him from his parents. I wasn't great at science, but my understanding of a deer's genetics is that they are virtually pre-determined at conception or shortly after. Also, half of that fawn's genetic potential came from his mother. Don't discount that a young buck breeding does in your area necessarily means that their offspring will carry small headgear their entire lives.

 

[THA4]

This is Gay....

so is this.....

:moon:
:drink1:

 

[Daver]

:grin:

This is Gay....

Haha! Well there's your scientific fact right there! The little guy is getting after the bigger buck. I'll bet he got his butt kicked though right after this picture was taken!