My thoughts on leasing
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StantheMan
New Member
The whole face of hunting is changing. Crop prices, rural residential building, recreational wants... there is a whole host of forces that are just begining to collide... it's the perfect storm, and yes us hunters are not pleased with some of the effects.
Think about this... many of you have paid for a PMA membership, well where does that money go?
All I know is that the creator of this great website purchased land that I once hunted, now I can't.
Think about this... many of you have paid for a PMA membership, well where does that money go?
All I know is that the creator of this great website purchased land that I once hunted, now I can't.
BJohnson
Well-Known Member
I am going to make one statement on here because I think Elkhunter is probably thinking the same thing.
I hope as much effort has been expended in expressing your views to your legislative representatives over the past couple weeks as has gone into this post.
This post has gotten as many views in one day (almost) as the HS2127 (Non-Resident Hunting) did in a week and almost ten times more views than the HS3217 (Sustainable Funding Bill).
Just an interesting observation. We are a passionate bunch aren't we !!!
I hope as much effort has been expended in expressing your views to your legislative representatives over the past couple weeks as has gone into this post.
This post has gotten as many views in one day (almost) as the HS2127 (Non-Resident Hunting) did in a week and almost ten times more views than the HS3217 (Sustainable Funding Bill).
Just an interesting observation. We are a passionate bunch aren't we !!!
Hardcorehunter
UL Shelter/Stove Geek
Yea, and everybody sat with their thumbs up their butts with no comments on the subject for over 12 hours, afraid of speaking their minds and hurting someones' feelings evidentally. Then all hell broke loose. I have even had a pm today telling me I need to tone down my views on the subject and quit voicing my opinion; LIKE THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
GregBickal
New Member
It seems the problem is not enough public hunting land. Maybe we need to approach this whole thing from an entirely different angle....
The Farm Bureau wants Revenue, The DNR wants Revenue, the Hunters want more Quality Public Hunting Land, it seems like there should be some kind of deal that could be worked to everyones advantage.
The DNR wants to double the number of NR hunters, fine, then they need to DOUBLE the number of acres of public land to hunt.
The Farm Bureau wants Revenue, The DNR wants Revenue, the Hunters want more Quality Public Hunting Land, it seems like there should be some kind of deal that could be worked to everyones advantage.
The DNR wants to double the number of NR hunters, fine, then they need to DOUBLE the number of acres of public land to hunt.
esmd
New Member
Some very impassioned and good points on both sides of this issue. Here's my perspective as a Maryland hunter.
When I first started hunting in the late 80's (I think 1989 was my first year with a gun of my own), my hunting club hunted land we had permission for. By the mid 90's, in order to keep that land, we had to lease it. It was that, or hunt public. Leasing was becoming a reality in Maryland.
We leased several parcels, and still had permission for one or two others. In 1999 or 2000, the State bought up a bunch of timber company land on the eastern shore, and made most of it public. Basically, the supply was cut in half, and demand rose accordingly. Lease rates went through the roof. We were forced to drop half of our property to afford to keep the other, more productive properties. Today, we pay over $1000 for 105 acres, $5000 for about 370 acres, $350 for 40 acres, and have permission to hunt two other parcels (150+ acres and 400+ acres). The 150 acre piece is fields and cutover, and the gentleman who owns it will not take our money, and we've told him that if he ever feels the need to lease it out, we'll pay for the right to keep it. The other piece isn't worth a nickle, it's all phragmites (tall reeds) and marsh, filled with blowdowns and waste deep water. 85% of it is unhuntable.
We hate having to pay all that money to keep land, but in Maryland, you have to pay to play. Otherwise, it's public land. Now, I have no problem hunting public, in fact I bowhunt public close to my house (my club is almost 2 hours away). But you've got to tote your stand in and out each day, which is not a huge deal, but it's an inconvenience. For me, it's not the weight, but rather the noise you make putting it up, and the sweat that spooks deer when it's above 40 degrees. Anyway, I can work with all that, but what I don't care for is people that I don't know with rifles, shotguns, and muzzleloaders in the same woods with me. That's one big reason I avoid public during anything other than bow season.
The moral of all this is, I understand the perspective of those who abhor leasing, because the end result is what we have here in Maryland, where money talks, and everyone else hunts public. However, the reality of the situation is, leasing is here to stay, and I don't begrudge anyone for taking the plunge and securing their privledges on a piece of private property.
I wish there was a solution, but there isn't one. Things change, this is just another example. Thinking that things will go back to the way they were, or even stay like it is now, just isn't being realistic. That's not going to happen anymore than gas going back to $1.00 per gallon.
When I first started hunting in the late 80's (I think 1989 was my first year with a gun of my own), my hunting club hunted land we had permission for. By the mid 90's, in order to keep that land, we had to lease it. It was that, or hunt public. Leasing was becoming a reality in Maryland.
We leased several parcels, and still had permission for one or two others. In 1999 or 2000, the State bought up a bunch of timber company land on the eastern shore, and made most of it public. Basically, the supply was cut in half, and demand rose accordingly. Lease rates went through the roof. We were forced to drop half of our property to afford to keep the other, more productive properties. Today, we pay over $1000 for 105 acres, $5000 for about 370 acres, $350 for 40 acres, and have permission to hunt two other parcels (150+ acres and 400+ acres). The 150 acre piece is fields and cutover, and the gentleman who owns it will not take our money, and we've told him that if he ever feels the need to lease it out, we'll pay for the right to keep it. The other piece isn't worth a nickle, it's all phragmites (tall reeds) and marsh, filled with blowdowns and waste deep water. 85% of it is unhuntable.
We hate having to pay all that money to keep land, but in Maryland, you have to pay to play. Otherwise, it's public land. Now, I have no problem hunting public, in fact I bowhunt public close to my house (my club is almost 2 hours away). But you've got to tote your stand in and out each day, which is not a huge deal, but it's an inconvenience. For me, it's not the weight, but rather the noise you make putting it up, and the sweat that spooks deer when it's above 40 degrees. Anyway, I can work with all that, but what I don't care for is people that I don't know with rifles, shotguns, and muzzleloaders in the same woods with me. That's one big reason I avoid public during anything other than bow season.
The moral of all this is, I understand the perspective of those who abhor leasing, because the end result is what we have here in Maryland, where money talks, and everyone else hunts public. However, the reality of the situation is, leasing is here to stay, and I don't begrudge anyone for taking the plunge and securing their privledges on a piece of private property.
I wish there was a solution, but there isn't one. Things change, this is just another example. Thinking that things will go back to the way they were, or even stay like it is now, just isn't being realistic. That's not going to happen anymore than gas going back to $1.00 per gallon.
wegner36
New Member
fellas...where do i begin.
I guess i don't know much about leasing, I have never had the dissatisfaction of having to do it. As far as loosing hunting ground, I guess you could say so, A farm that we had farmed/hunted since as long as I have been around went up for auction. My dad was supposed to get to buy the farm, If he could pay what the ground was assesed for. Well when the elderly lady that owned the farm passed away the bank took over control. Dad had a good relationship with this lady, she didn't have much for family left, or that cared i guess i don't know. Dad was a casket bearer at her funeral, How many renters can say that they have had that good of a relationship with a landlord?
Anywho the farm was sold to the highest bidder, and Dad could have came up with the money to buy it at the assesed value, not the highest bid though. After 30 plus years of maintaining the farm it was sold from underneath us....what can you do.
I suppose the same could happen with leasing or with having ground you have hunted all of your life be leased from underneath of you... There will always be a highest bidder, that is unless you bid the highest and buy the land, that ends the bidding. And really landownership is the only true way to ensure a future for your self/kids to hunt, at least it's the best way to try.
I do definatly know that not everyone can swing the money to get land, I feel for you guys. I'm lucky enough to have had a great grandpa, grandpa, and father who have worked their asses off to attain what we have. Each one of these men has been through the good and the bad, drought and flood to keep what is theirs, I'll never sell an acre of their land....never. I know that their are some rich lawyer types that just walk out and buy land, but still if a man owns the land, the man can lease or sell or whatever he wants to do with it.
I know there are those of you out their that think even friendships won't last long in the way of the almighty dollar, I for one will never lease my land, nor will I let some one with no ties whatsoever to me hunt it either, this may perhaps be greedy of me, It's my choice. You don't have to do much to be in my good grace, If one of you IWers showed up for a day or two on my dad's farm to offer a helping hand, my dad wouldn't hesitate if you asked him to hunt a few days on a piece of his land. But i'm not going to let some guy with way to much free time who wouldn't stop and give me the time of day if i were stranded on the side of the road step foot on my ground. There are enough good people out there that deserve a place to hunt that I don't need to let any of the idiots hunt our property.
As for those of you who do lease, It's your money do as you please, It's the landowners land he should do what he wants to as well. For those of you who pay the money to hunt more power to you, I'm not offended by the fact that someone is willing to pay for ground to hunt. As far as those of you who had hunting ground leased out to the highest bidder, that is too bad, but it is what it is. Hunting is changing, it may not be in a direction that everyone wants, but then again when does anything change in a way that makes everyone happy.
In a sense this "gold rush" for hunting ground is much like that of farming ground, Things would be a lot easier and cheaper for dad and myself if they didn't allow people to rent ground to corporate farms. There would be a lot more family farms out there, But alas the family farm is slowly drifting into the past, money and big buisness drove it out, drove land prices up, It's a change, the only certain thing is that nothing is certain.
There is no right or wrong here, there are no definitive moral lines that we can all watch for people to cross and then call them out for doing so. Andy THA4 and the rest of you guys keep leasing land, HCH and all of you who think leasing is for the birds, don't do it. I'm not about to try and decide what is right or wrong here, I just think everyone is entitled to spend their money and govern their land however they want(legally).
I guess i could have saved you all the trouble of reading my rambling and just typed that last sentence...but what fun woult that be?
By the way if it came down to voting for either Clinton or HCH....I'd be up enjoying the neighborly atmosphere of saskatchewan with Kaare. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
I guess i don't know much about leasing, I have never had the dissatisfaction of having to do it. As far as loosing hunting ground, I guess you could say so, A farm that we had farmed/hunted since as long as I have been around went up for auction. My dad was supposed to get to buy the farm, If he could pay what the ground was assesed for. Well when the elderly lady that owned the farm passed away the bank took over control. Dad had a good relationship with this lady, she didn't have much for family left, or that cared i guess i don't know. Dad was a casket bearer at her funeral, How many renters can say that they have had that good of a relationship with a landlord?
Anywho the farm was sold to the highest bidder, and Dad could have came up with the money to buy it at the assesed value, not the highest bid though. After 30 plus years of maintaining the farm it was sold from underneath us....what can you do.
I suppose the same could happen with leasing or with having ground you have hunted all of your life be leased from underneath of you... There will always be a highest bidder, that is unless you bid the highest and buy the land, that ends the bidding. And really landownership is the only true way to ensure a future for your self/kids to hunt, at least it's the best way to try.
I do definatly know that not everyone can swing the money to get land, I feel for you guys. I'm lucky enough to have had a great grandpa, grandpa, and father who have worked their asses off to attain what we have. Each one of these men has been through the good and the bad, drought and flood to keep what is theirs, I'll never sell an acre of their land....never. I know that their are some rich lawyer types that just walk out and buy land, but still if a man owns the land, the man can lease or sell or whatever he wants to do with it.
I know there are those of you out their that think even friendships won't last long in the way of the almighty dollar, I for one will never lease my land, nor will I let some one with no ties whatsoever to me hunt it either, this may perhaps be greedy of me, It's my choice. You don't have to do much to be in my good grace, If one of you IWers showed up for a day or two on my dad's farm to offer a helping hand, my dad wouldn't hesitate if you asked him to hunt a few days on a piece of his land. But i'm not going to let some guy with way to much free time who wouldn't stop and give me the time of day if i were stranded on the side of the road step foot on my ground. There are enough good people out there that deserve a place to hunt that I don't need to let any of the idiots hunt our property.
As for those of you who do lease, It's your money do as you please, It's the landowners land he should do what he wants to as well. For those of you who pay the money to hunt more power to you, I'm not offended by the fact that someone is willing to pay for ground to hunt. As far as those of you who had hunting ground leased out to the highest bidder, that is too bad, but it is what it is. Hunting is changing, it may not be in a direction that everyone wants, but then again when does anything change in a way that makes everyone happy.
In a sense this "gold rush" for hunting ground is much like that of farming ground, Things would be a lot easier and cheaper for dad and myself if they didn't allow people to rent ground to corporate farms. There would be a lot more family farms out there, But alas the family farm is slowly drifting into the past, money and big buisness drove it out, drove land prices up, It's a change, the only certain thing is that nothing is certain.
There is no right or wrong here, there are no definitive moral lines that we can all watch for people to cross and then call them out for doing so. Andy THA4 and the rest of you guys keep leasing land, HCH and all of you who think leasing is for the birds, don't do it. I'm not about to try and decide what is right or wrong here, I just think everyone is entitled to spend their money and govern their land however they want(legally).
I guess i could have saved you all the trouble of reading my rambling and just typed that last sentence...but what fun woult that be?
By the way if it came down to voting for either Clinton or HCH....I'd be up enjoying the neighborly atmosphere of saskatchewan with Kaare. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
esmd
New Member
P.S. Those lease rates we pay are on the rural lower eastern shore of Maryland. On the upper shore and closer to Baltimore, I've heard of 300-500 acre farms going for $25,000 PER SEASON. It's only going to get worse here, in fact, I'm trying to talk my wife into moving to southern Iowa or Northern Missouri where we can buy land of our own for not a whole lot more than that.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BWJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am going to make one statement on here because I think Elkhunter is probably thinking the same thing.
I hope as much effort has been expended in expressing your views to your legislative representatives over the past couple weeks as has gone into this post.
This post has gotten as many views in one day (almost) as the HS2127 (Non-Resident Hunting) did in a week and almost ten times more views than the HS3217 (Sustainable Funding Bill).
Just an interesting observation. We are a passionate bunch aren't we !!! </div></div>
You read my mind.
I've been wondering if anyone here realizes what the sustainable funding bill could do in making more land available to residents?
HUGE!
With the changes we are witnessing in our deer hunting, there is not a time we've needed this legislation more.
I hope as much effort has been expended in expressing your views to your legislative representatives over the past couple weeks as has gone into this post.
This post has gotten as many views in one day (almost) as the HS2127 (Non-Resident Hunting) did in a week and almost ten times more views than the HS3217 (Sustainable Funding Bill).
Just an interesting observation. We are a passionate bunch aren't we !!! </div></div>
You read my mind.
I've been wondering if anyone here realizes what the sustainable funding bill could do in making more land available to residents?
HUGE!
With the changes we are witnessing in our deer hunting, there is not a time we've needed this legislation more.
risto2351
Well-Known Member
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BWJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am going to make one statement on here because I think Elkhunter is probably thinking the same thing.
I hope as much effort has been expended in expressing your views to your legislative representatives over the past couple weeks as has gone into this post.
This post has gotten as many views in one day (almost) as the HS2127 (Non-Resident Hunting) did in a week and almost ten times more views than the HS3217 (Sustainable Funding Bill).
Just an interesting observation. We are a passionate bunch aren't we !!! </div></div>
I agree with that statement 100%.
I can bet that most voiced more of their opinion on here than talked with their legislature.
I hope as much effort has been expended in expressing your views to your legislative representatives over the past couple weeks as has gone into this post.
This post has gotten as many views in one day (almost) as the HS2127 (Non-Resident Hunting) did in a week and almost ten times more views than the HS3217 (Sustainable Funding Bill).
Just an interesting observation. We are a passionate bunch aren't we !!! </div></div>
I agree with that statement 100%.
I can bet that most voiced more of their opinion on here than talked with their legislature.
And here's another thought, maybe wishful thinking, but doing what we can to keep the recreational land values from taking a huge jump will go a long way in allowing the State's money to buy more acres in the long run. That's if people get off their rumps and drive this sustainable funding bill home!
Ok, now back to the subject on hand. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
Ok, now back to the subject on hand. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
Skully
PMA Member
I'll chime in here a while. I think that 20 years ago if you were to advertise "Recreational Land" meaning overgrown pastures, brush and hilly timber, people would have laughed at you. Just the same if you tried to lease out your ground back then. Now hunting web sites, and news papers are littered with these types of ads. Why? It is a new era of "people" not just "hunters" who are seeking these parcels. My uncle is not a hunter, winters in Texas and is dying to buy 40 to 50 acres around here to camp on in the summer time. He's sick of the town life. I have a friend who owns 400 acres of PRIME whitetail habitat, doesn't hunt or allow hunting but bought it because it was so cheap. He couldn't buy an acre of land in his native California town for what he gave for this whole farm. Times are changing and we're all feeling the squeeze. Recreational land has become big business and is being sought by people from all walks of life. They aren't making any more land the last time I checked so for you young guys out there I'd be doing everything I could to save every penny for the chance at some property in the future. Leasing is short term and I understand the dilima for guys who are doing it but I would rather tuck that money away, hunt some public or knock on doors to get me by until my goal was reached. As long as we can all find a way to get our hunting fix thats all that matters I guess. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
loneranger
Well-Known Member
It could be in time, when the deer herd changes, or dwindles, this big rack, trophy fever may let up. Things rise and fall. Deer hunting may change once again. History has a way of repeating. old times may be new again some day.
Hardcorehunter
UL Shelter/Stove Geek
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"By the way if it came down to voting for either Clinton or HCH"
HCH would be a no-brainer.....but thats not saying much, so would a monkey vs Clinton </div></div>cough...cough. Yea, what would a guy like me that has successfully owned his own business for 25 years possibly know about what needs to be done in government? Most Americans couldn't handle the freedoms I would give; too many puppets in society. Not interested in the position as it would interfere with my hunting and scooter riding. You guys with only two big game species to hunt are more up to the challenge. Touche. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif EDIT: I guess since it has gotten down to name calling pharmacists from MN are wussies who rip off the defenseless old people who can't afford medicine /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif
HCH would be a no-brainer.....but thats not saying much, so would a monkey vs Clinton </div></div>cough...cough. Yea, what would a guy like me that has successfully owned his own business for 25 years possibly know about what needs to be done in government? Most Americans couldn't handle the freedoms I would give; too many puppets in society. Not interested in the position as it would interfere with my hunting and scooter riding. You guys with only two big game species to hunt are more up to the challenge. Touche. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif EDIT: I guess since it has gotten down to name calling pharmacists from MN are wussies who rip off the defenseless old people who can't afford medicine /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif
gersdorf
Life Member
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hardcorehunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"By the way if it came down to voting for either Clinton or HCH"
HCH would be a no-brainer.....but thats not saying much, so would a monkey vs Clinton </div></div>cough...cough...blow me. </div></div>
Glad its staying clean.
HCH would be a no-brainer.....but thats not saying much, so would a monkey vs Clinton </div></div>cough...cough...blow me. </div></div>
Glad its staying clean.
DOR
Life Member
Sorry HCH
That was more of a rip On Hilary then you. I have no beef with you....it was toungue and cheek man. Sometimes hard to convey that on the net. We would probably be in agreement mostly when it comes to politics. I shouldn't have went there and I could have phrased that a little better i guess.... My bad. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif
If we cant rip on W an Hilary who is left? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
That was more of a rip On Hilary then you. I have no beef with you....it was toungue and cheek man. Sometimes hard to convey that on the net. We would probably be in agreement mostly when it comes to politics. I shouldn't have went there and I could have phrased that a little better i guess.... My bad. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif
If we cant rip on W an Hilary who is left? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif