hillrunner
PMA Member
Re: Switchgrass - Frost seeding
Sounds great and Im ready to go except 1 problem, everything I own is still buried under snow!
Sounds great and Im ready to go except 1 problem, everything I own is still buried under snow!
dbltree
Super Moderator
Re: Switchgrass - Spring burning and spraying
Central Iowa posted pics of how he properly prepared his ground for planting switchgrass last fall, by mowing and spraying the new growth with roundup.
Switchgrass Preparation
He planted it in March and now he has only to watch for weed concerns later this summer and clip as needed.
For those that planted in March on unkilled sod, now we have a narrow window of oppurtunity to kill that sod before the switchgrass germinates.
I sprayed some the other day but grass is just starting to grow so I'll have to monitor it and respray if needed.
It's green and just starting but another week or so might be better.
Even though it appears to be growing (sod/brome/fescue etc.) there are more shoots coming up this time of year. We have been inundated with rain lately so that makes spraying difficult as well.
Just another reason to plan ahead and kill sod the fall before planting.
I have seen some people burning switchgrass already but if you are trying to rejuvenate and revitalize your switchgrass stand, then burn well into May (at least in southern Iowa)
Burning late will set back coolseason grasses and small trees and shortly after the swithgrass plants will start to grow.
If you burn early then it will encourage growth of cool season grasses and they will be growing robustly long before the switchgrass "wakes" up from it's winter nap.
For those trying to encourage forbs in a overly thick stand of switchgrass then burning early would be the ticket. I manage mine for whitetail cover as my first priorty and I want it thick and tall!
Central Iowa posted pics of how he properly prepared his ground for planting switchgrass last fall, by mowing and spraying the new growth with roundup.
Switchgrass Preparation
He planted it in March and now he has only to watch for weed concerns later this summer and clip as needed.
For those that planted in March on unkilled sod, now we have a narrow window of oppurtunity to kill that sod before the switchgrass germinates.
I sprayed some the other day but grass is just starting to grow so I'll have to monitor it and respray if needed.
It's green and just starting but another week or so might be better.
Even though it appears to be growing (sod/brome/fescue etc.) there are more shoots coming up this time of year. We have been inundated with rain lately so that makes spraying difficult as well.
Just another reason to plan ahead and kill sod the fall before planting.
I have seen some people burning switchgrass already but if you are trying to rejuvenate and revitalize your switchgrass stand, then burn well into May (at least in southern Iowa)
Burning late will set back coolseason grasses and small trees and shortly after the swithgrass plants will start to grow.
If you burn early then it will encourage growth of cool season grasses and they will be growing robustly long before the switchgrass "wakes" up from it's winter nap.
For those trying to encourage forbs in a overly thick stand of switchgrass then burning early would be the ticket. I manage mine for whitetail cover as my first priorty and I want it thick and tall!
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dbltree
Super Moderator
Re: Switchgrass - Spring burning and spraying
I continued spraying sod that I frost seeded to switchgrass this past winter and wasn't happy with the kill on the area I sprayed a few weeks ago. I was kind of afraid it was too early and it appears I was right. I didn't pack my camera along but the sprayed area was turning yellow but new grasses had come up.
Roundup just doesn't work well when it's cold and cloudy as the grasses just don't absorb it quickly like they do when it's warm and sunny and they are growing faster. Too many grasses are still dormant early in the spring and they keep springing up from roots and rhizomes.
Just bringing this up to remind everyone that fall preparation for winter seeding is far and away the best option. Grasses mowed in late summer and sprayed in September when it's still warm and they are actively growing will yield a better kill on tough grasses like fescue and brome.
I continued spraying sod that I frost seeded to switchgrass this past winter and wasn't happy with the kill on the area I sprayed a few weeks ago. I was kind of afraid it was too early and it appears I was right. I didn't pack my camera along but the sprayed area was turning yellow but new grasses had come up.
Roundup just doesn't work well when it's cold and cloudy as the grasses just don't absorb it quickly like they do when it's warm and sunny and they are growing faster. Too many grasses are still dormant early in the spring and they keep springing up from roots and rhizomes.
Just bringing this up to remind everyone that fall preparation for winter seeding is far and away the best option. Grasses mowed in late summer and sprayed in September when it's still warm and they are actively growing will yield a better kill on tough grasses like fescue and brome.
Re: Switchgrass - Spring burning and spraying
QUESTION?!?!?!?
I am interseeding with a drill into some sparse established switchgrass, it needs to be thickened a ton and would not even burn it was so sparse.
There is some random grass, clover and other stuff in there. What should I do, just mow it AFTER I plant or before. Periodic mowing? Should I apply any kind of chemical treatment, if so which one? Want to make this expensive interseeding go well! Thanks!!!!
**CIR, I am also doing a few acres to Indian and Blue Stem.
QUESTION?!?!?!?
I am interseeding with a drill into some sparse established switchgrass, it needs to be thickened a ton and would not even burn it was so sparse.
There is some random grass, clover and other stuff in there. What should I do, just mow it AFTER I plant or before. Periodic mowing? Should I apply any kind of chemical treatment, if so which one? Want to make this expensive interseeding go well! Thanks!!!!
**CIR, I am also doing a few acres to Indian and Blue Stem.
dbltree
Super Moderator
Re: Switchgrass - Spring burning and spraying
How old is the sparse stand? Is it a new stand that didn't take or an old one that you are trying to rejuvenate?
Just wondering why it's so sparse? Is the soil fertility poor?
Here's my next thoughts...
Your going to interseed now which means some or all of the seed may not germinate until next spring because it has not been stratified (it's for that reason that frost seeding works better for switchgrass)
That just means you may need even more weed control over a longer period of time via mowing and/or herbicide.
You could kill the existing grasses right now with roundup. If you check the bases of the existing switchgrass you'll ost likely find that very little if any has greened up yet...but I would check first.
Atrazine works the best for residual control but I've found it needs to be applied at pretty high rates when applied on untilled ground.
At the very least I would clip the weeds/grass at 8 to 12" high as needed until the switchgrass gets established.
Are you mixing the other two native grasses with the switchgrass or planting them in a different area?
If you have more information about the stand perhaps we can be more helpful...seed is pricey so I know you want to make this seeding successful
How old is the sparse stand? Is it a new stand that didn't take or an old one that you are trying to rejuvenate?
Just wondering why it's so sparse? Is the soil fertility poor?
Here's my next thoughts...
Your going to interseed now which means some or all of the seed may not germinate until next spring because it has not been stratified (it's for that reason that frost seeding works better for switchgrass)
That just means you may need even more weed control over a longer period of time via mowing and/or herbicide.
You could kill the existing grasses right now with roundup. If you check the bases of the existing switchgrass you'll ost likely find that very little if any has greened up yet...but I would check first.
Atrazine works the best for residual control but I've found it needs to be applied at pretty high rates when applied on untilled ground.
At the very least I would clip the weeds/grass at 8 to 12" high as needed until the switchgrass gets established.
Are you mixing the other two native grasses with the switchgrass or planting them in a different area?
If you have more information about the stand perhaps we can be more helpful...seed is pricey so I know you want to make this seeding successful
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Re: Switchgrass - Spring burning and spraying
THANKS dbltree!
Ok, I just bought this farm, the guy who planted it did it for CRP about 8-9 years ago, I think he did the minimum on everything, all switchgrass AND he seeded light AND never did any maintanence. The soil is excellent. Some areas are good stands of switch and some are more sparse. From a distance it looks good. It was very difficult to burn though, some areas harder than others, many would not take a burn basically at all.
Most of the ground I am putting straight CIR.
The ground that is at higher levels I am putting Indian and Blue Stem so the pheasants hopefully nest there where it's more dry.
20 acres to CIR which is more wet ground, 10 acres a mix of all the grasses, it's more dry but still a moist good soil.
Let me know what you think, when to mow, when to spray if you think that's a good idea. How often mow?
THANKS A TON, I really want to make this ground great!
THANKS dbltree!
Ok, I just bought this farm, the guy who planted it did it for CRP about 8-9 years ago, I think he did the minimum on everything, all switchgrass AND he seeded light AND never did any maintanence. The soil is excellent. Some areas are good stands of switch and some are more sparse. From a distance it looks good. It was very difficult to burn though, some areas harder than others, many would not take a burn basically at all.
Most of the ground I am putting straight CIR.
The ground that is at higher levels I am putting Indian and Blue Stem so the pheasants hopefully nest there where it's more dry.
20 acres to CIR which is more wet ground, 10 acres a mix of all the grasses, it's more dry but still a moist good soil.
Let me know what you think, when to mow, when to spray if you think that's a good idea. How often mow?
THANKS A TON, I really want to make this ground great!
dbltree
Super Moderator
Re: Switchgrass - Spring burning and spraying
Got it...makes a little more sense now.
First...don't give up on the burning, just keep at it and over time it will prove to be your best managment tool.
Remember to burn late ...mid May if possible, if you burn in April you will only encourage the coolseason grasses and weeds rather then discourage them. I can't stress enough how important timing of your burn is.
I would consider spot spray and mowing if some areas are in decent shape.
You can kill all the broadleaf weeds including the clover with 2-4D, just wait until the swithgrass has 3-4 leaves before spraying.
Grasses could be killed very early in the spring with roundup before the switchgrass starts growing.
I have also had success spraying Plateau or Journey on existing stands of switchgrass (not a new seeding)to clean up undesirable competition.
Mow only when you have too, ususally once in mid-summer will be enough, after coolseasons have put on thier first flush of growth. Clip them off enough that the switch can get sun and have a fighting chance.
Don't ever mow the switchgrass close to the ground when it is growing...good way to kill it or set it back. Keep you mower up high enough to just clip the weeds off.
Hopefully with a good burning regime you can get you native grass stand back on track!
Got it...makes a little more sense now.
First...don't give up on the burning, just keep at it and over time it will prove to be your best managment tool.
Remember to burn late ...mid May if possible, if you burn in April you will only encourage the coolseason grasses and weeds rather then discourage them. I can't stress enough how important timing of your burn is.
I would consider spot spray and mowing if some areas are in decent shape.
You can kill all the broadleaf weeds including the clover with 2-4D, just wait until the swithgrass has 3-4 leaves before spraying.
Grasses could be killed very early in the spring with roundup before the switchgrass starts growing.
I have also had success spraying Plateau or Journey on existing stands of switchgrass (not a new seeding)to clean up undesirable competition.
Mow only when you have too, ususally once in mid-summer will be enough, after coolseasons have put on thier first flush of growth. Clip them off enough that the switch can get sun and have a fighting chance.
Don't ever mow the switchgrass close to the ground when it is growing...good way to kill it or set it back. Keep you mower up high enough to just clip the weeds off.
Hopefully with a good burning regime you can get you native grass stand back on track!
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LoessHillsArcher
PMA Member
Re: Switchgrass - Spring burning and spraying
Paul is right on the timing of the burns. We burnt an area this past April the 19th hoping to bring back some warm season grasses. It burnt well but already is extremely green, dad said it looks like a nice lawn! He did see a bunch of deer and turkey out in it but as far as our goal of restoring some warm season grasses I'm not sure if we will be succesful. If we had to do it all over again later burn for sure.
Would spraying with round up or a grass herbicide now help kill the brome..looking to do it before the natives green back up.
Paul is right on the timing of the burns. We burnt an area this past April the 19th hoping to bring back some warm season grasses. It burnt well but already is extremely green, dad said it looks like a nice lawn! He did see a bunch of deer and turkey out in it but as far as our goal of restoring some warm season grasses I'm not sure if we will be succesful. If we had to do it all over again later burn for sure.
Would spraying with round up or a grass herbicide now help kill the brome..looking to do it before the natives green back up.
dbltree
Super Moderator
Re: Switchgrass - Spring burning and spraying
Abosultely...but look back thru the pics in this thread and the NWSG thread for pics of native grasses coming up after a burn. Look for the "clumps" and make sure they are not greening up also.
If not...nuking now with RUP will make a difference. A new seeding will take much longer to germinate then exisiting mature plants, so you want to be careful of that when spring spraying a non-selective herbicide.
Abosultely...but look back thru the pics in this thread and the NWSG thread for pics of native grasses coming up after a burn. Look for the "clumps" and make sure they are not greening up also.
If not...nuking now with RUP will make a difference. A new seeding will take much longer to germinate then exisiting mature plants, so you want to be careful of that when spring spraying a non-selective herbicide.
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Re: Switchgrass - Spring burning and spraying
I am in SE Iowa, northern Van Buren County. If you knew anyone who knows and can spray, let me know. I have 30 acres. I have made 3 attempts at burning, I just think as more time goes on and more greens it will be impossible, I mean it's sparse and darn near impossible to get a big fire.
Again, if you know any names to spray and mow, etc, let me know, thanks!!!!!!!
I am in SE Iowa, northern Van Buren County. If you knew anyone who knows and can spray, let me know. I have 30 acres. I have made 3 attempts at burning, I just think as more time goes on and more greens it will be impossible, I mean it's sparse and darn near impossible to get a big fire.
Again, if you know any names to spray and mow, etc, let me know, thanks!!!!!!!
goatman
I hunt days ending in Y
Re: Switchgrass - Spring burning and spraying
Mistake number one was being told all I could get was blackwell switchgrass four years ago by a local dealer. Mistake number two was burning a week ago. Blackwell is now emerging. Its a small plot and I will spray atrazine. I'm waiting on another patch to burn in the middle of May. I have a new small patch of CIR I frost seeded I'm waiting to take off. I may switch all of my patches to CIR. Thanks for all the help guys.
Mistake number one was being told all I could get was blackwell switchgrass four years ago by a local dealer. Mistake number two was burning a week ago. Blackwell is now emerging. Its a small plot and I will spray atrazine. I'm waiting on another patch to burn in the middle of May. I have a new small patch of CIR I frost seeded I'm waiting to take off. I may switch all of my patches to CIR. Thanks for all the help guys.
dbltree
Super Moderator
Re: Switchgrass - Spring burning and spraying
Guess we need to talk...
Ran across this while checking on Select EC herbicide for clover...it's also labeled for killing fescue in NWSG when applied early after the native grass has been burned.
Select 2 EC herbicide special label
I'm not sure if it would be better then Roundup but if native grass had started to emerge it would severely damage it rather then nuke it like Roundup.
Just another option and if one was planning on using it then burning early would be beneficial, otherwise burning late is always the best bet to set back fescue.
I've never had any luck with Blackwell switchgrass long term...starts out ok but just doesn't last compared to Cave In Rock
Guess we need to talk...
Ran across this while checking on Select EC herbicide for clover...it's also labeled for killing fescue in NWSG when applied early after the native grass has been burned.
Select 2 EC herbicide special label
I'm not sure if it would be better then Roundup but if native grass had started to emerge it would severely damage it rather then nuke it like Roundup.
Just another option and if one was planning on using it then burning early would be beneficial, otherwise burning late is always the best bet to set back fescue.
I've never had any luck with Blackwell switchgrass long term...starts out ok but just doesn't last compared to Cave In Rock
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dbltree
Super Moderator
Re: Switchgrass - Spring burning and spraying
Normally I encourage late burning (May rather then March/April) to set back cool season growth which will already have started to grow. The blackened ground will warm quickly and the prairie grasses will soon start to grow and out compete the cool season "junk".
If your trying to rejuvenate and old or thin stand and wish to use herbicides in tandem with burning, then burning early is beneficial.
By burning in late March the cool season grasses will pop up quickly, easily a month before the switchgrass making it easy to kill them with Roundup.
Just don't burn early without herbicides unless you are trying to encourage forbs in your prairie grass stand.
I always encourage everyone to kill brome sod in early fall in preperation for seeding switchgrass the following spring. Mowing in late summer and spraying the re-growth in September will give you an excellent kill.
Trying to kill brome and fescue in early spring when soils are not yet fully warmed and some grasses may still be dormant is sometimes difficult at best.
I sprayed this spot in early April but 3 weeks later I could scarcely tell I had sprayed it You can just see the dead stuff if you look close, but to much was dormant and came up afterwords.
I resprayed some several weeks later and within days it was dying...
The long and short of this story is this...tyring to hurry and kill sod for a spring planting of switchgrass can be difficult versus doing some planning and killing it while it is growing well later in the summer.
This spring has been even more of a problem due to cold wet weather that didn't let soils warm up or grass grow as it might have in other years.
Mid-Contract Management
When I signed up for the MCM I wanted to choose burning, however the NRCS office told me I needed to pay for a burn plan. Burn plan?!? Who needs no !@#$ burn plan!! anyway, I couldn't see paying someone to tell me what I already knew how to do (hey...toss a match into it let er go...right? )
So I figured I'd sign up for the light disking since they told me I only had to scratch it up a bit.
Talking about it and doing it are two different things and it just went against the grain running a disk over my switchgrass...
When I went it with the paperwork I stopped by the NRCS office and asked if I could switch to burning for the next two portions of my contract..NP to do so. I asked about the burn plan and she said...you don't have to hire someone, just follow the NRCS gudielines and fill out a Burn Plan form and turn it into us.
Sure wish they would have told me that in the first place but no one indicated to me that I had a choice. All I can say is don't be afraid to ask lots of questions and sometimes challenge their answers. Good people all, but only human....
Some of my Cave In Rock Switchgrass in early May
Some good information has been posted on switchgrass, prairiegrass, and killing brome so I'm including those links here:
Cave In Rock Switchgrass
Switchgrass Varieties
Killing Brome and Fescue
Growing Prairies Successfully
For those with new seedings, remember that most of the growth will be after June 1st depending on the weather. This years cold wet weather may even set that time back slightly. We have some 80 degree weather coming up which will be helpful but remember...
there is a reason they call prairie grass Warm Season Grass
Normally I encourage late burning (May rather then March/April) to set back cool season growth which will already have started to grow. The blackened ground will warm quickly and the prairie grasses will soon start to grow and out compete the cool season "junk".
If your trying to rejuvenate and old or thin stand and wish to use herbicides in tandem with burning, then burning early is beneficial.
By burning in late March the cool season grasses will pop up quickly, easily a month before the switchgrass making it easy to kill them with Roundup.
Just don't burn early without herbicides unless you are trying to encourage forbs in your prairie grass stand.
I always encourage everyone to kill brome sod in early fall in preperation for seeding switchgrass the following spring. Mowing in late summer and spraying the re-growth in September will give you an excellent kill.
Trying to kill brome and fescue in early spring when soils are not yet fully warmed and some grasses may still be dormant is sometimes difficult at best.
I sprayed this spot in early April but 3 weeks later I could scarcely tell I had sprayed it You can just see the dead stuff if you look close, but to much was dormant and came up afterwords.
I resprayed some several weeks later and within days it was dying...
The long and short of this story is this...tyring to hurry and kill sod for a spring planting of switchgrass can be difficult versus doing some planning and killing it while it is growing well later in the summer.
This spring has been even more of a problem due to cold wet weather that didn't let soils warm up or grass grow as it might have in other years.
Mid-Contract Management
When I signed up for the MCM I wanted to choose burning, however the NRCS office told me I needed to pay for a burn plan. Burn plan?!? Who needs no !@#$ burn plan!!
anyway, I couldn't see paying someone to tell me what I already knew how to do (hey...toss a match into it let er go...right? )So I figured I'd sign up for the light disking since they told me I only had to scratch it up a bit.
Talking about it and doing it are two different things and it just went against the grain running a disk over my switchgrass...
When I went it with the paperwork I stopped by the NRCS office and asked if I could switch to burning for the next two portions of my contract..NP to do so. I asked about the burn plan and she said...you don't have to hire someone, just follow the NRCS gudielines and fill out a Burn Plan form and turn it into us.
Sure wish they would have told me that in the first place but no one indicated to me that I had a choice. All I can say is don't be afraid to ask lots of questions and sometimes challenge their answers. Good people all, but only human....
Some of my Cave In Rock Switchgrass in early May
Some good information has been posted on switchgrass, prairiegrass, and killing brome so I'm including those links here:
Cave In Rock Switchgrass
Switchgrass Varieties
Killing Brome and Fescue
Growing Prairies Successfully
For those with new seedings, remember that most of the growth will be after June 1st depending on the weather. This years cold wet weather may even set that time back slightly. We have some 80 degree weather coming up which will be helpful but remember...
there is a reason they call prairie grass Warm Season Grass
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Fall of '06 I mowed my brome in late August, sprayed it with 1.5-2.0 qts. per acre of RU late Sept. before the first hard freeze.
Spring '07 Approx. 2 wks. before planting I hit it with RU again.
Approx. 2 wks. after the 2nd RU application I drilled CIR switch @ 9lbs./acre. When it was approx. 8-12" tall I adjusted my Brush Hog so it wouldn't cut the switch but cut the tops off all the weeds. That was all I did. I had 4-5' tall swithgrass by Sept. The NRCS guy said it was the best 1st year stand of switch he's ever seen.
Last fall I didn't get all this done so spring '08 I mowed, 30 days later sprayed with RU and a few wks. later drilled CIR in 10 acres & 10 acres in deer bedding mix. We'll see if this works as well as the previous year.
From now on I will defintely mow & spray the fall before since it worked so well the 1st time.
Hope this helps.
Spring '07 Approx. 2 wks. before planting I hit it with RU again.
Approx. 2 wks. after the 2nd RU application I drilled CIR switch @ 9lbs./acre. When it was approx. 8-12" tall I adjusted my Brush Hog so it wouldn't cut the switch but cut the tops off all the weeds. That was all I did. I had 4-5' tall swithgrass by Sept. The NRCS guy said it was the best 1st year stand of switch he's ever seen.
Last fall I didn't get all this done so spring '08 I mowed, 30 days later sprayed with RU and a few wks. later drilled CIR in 10 acres & 10 acres in deer bedding mix. We'll see if this works as well as the previous year.
From now on I will defintely mow & spray the fall before since it worked so well the 1st time.
Hope this helps.
dbltree
Super Moderator
That is the ideal way to get a good kill prior to seeding!
Establishing a stand of switchgrass or a native grass stands is only possible by first killing any competitive grasses such as brome and fescue but even then, without residual control... something is going to come up!
I took these pics yesterday of some sod I had killed earlier this spring after first frost seeding CIR switchgrass.
It's just a "dead zone" right now...no evidence of anything live...
except for...baby weeds trying to emerge...
some "healthier" then others...
and these locust seedlings popping up in a cowpie!
guess cows like locust pods too...
this is a spot that I killed and itis covered with little clover or trefoil seedlings...you would think I had seeded it!
One would think at first that "your good to go" when you look at the "dead zone" but it's easy to see that later on, weeds will become a problem and either an application of 2-4D or clipping above the switch seedlings wil be needed.
Atrazine applied before weeds emerge tales care of all that but you need to hire that done unless you have a restricted use pesticide applicater license.
.
I'm glad to hear yours is coming up and even better that you can tell it is actually switchgrass! Heck I always have the darnedest time trying to tell what is switch and what is...well...anything but switch!
Here are a few pics to help identify switchgrass...
Leaf collar
Leaf Hair
Leaf base...
Leaf base hair
This is some of my switchgrass in early spring...no growth present yet...
This is some of my mature CIR switchgrass on June 13th...what a difference! (not a new seeding)
This link has seedling pictures for much of Iowa's prairie plants:
Prairie Seedling Identification
Some info on switchgrass and switchgrass seed dormancy:
Switchgrass info
Native Grass Establishment
I'll keep checking on this new seeding but if anyone has pics of their new switchgrass plantings...please share with us.
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Crimson Arrows
Well-Known Member
I had my fields planted this March (Frost seeding) and no growth yet. i talked to my friend and he said it would be June or July before growth would be seen. I have weeds though /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif I guess that with all the moisture this spring that he said my first year stand should be better than average. What height can I expect first year with this year having more rain? Planted 5 acres..... Hope it helps!