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Timber Stand Improvment

Ok guys, I've read this thread a few times in the last few days, and had a few questions... We are heading to the farm this weekend with chainsaws to trim trails back and get rid of a few trees. There are loads of shagbark hickory's and locusts, my first question is, can we take out the hickory's this weekend before the forester comes down in a few weeks or would it be best to wait until he walks the property? There a few locusts in an open pasture area we are going to plant cedars in, will they require a chemical treatment even if we cut them completely down? and the last, I've read dbltree mention Shingle Oaks multiple times, I'm 100% certain I know what these are, what are the main reasons for harvesting these as I've read they do produce acorns? (well that's what my tree book said, but it also said Black Oak acorns are a valuable food source for wildlife) Thanks guys!
 
mmatthes90 said:
Ok guys, I've read this thread a few times in the last few days, and had a few questions... We are heading to the farm this weekend with chainsaws to trim trails back and get rid of a few trees. There are loads of shagbark hickory's and locusts, my first question is, can we take out the hickory's this weekend before the forester comes down in a few weeks or would it be best to wait until he walks the property? There a few locusts in an open pasture area we are going to plant cedars in, will they require a chemical treatment even if we cut them completely down? and the last, I've read dbltree mention Shingle Oaks multiple times, I'm 100% certain I know what these are, what are the main reasons for harvesting these as I've read they do produce acorns? (well that's what my tree book said, but it also said Black Oak acorns are a valuable food source for wildlife) Thanks guys!
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If you looking to get cost share for TSI...don't do any work on those areas until the forester looks at it.

Shingle oaks have value as a mast producer but zero value as a crop tree for timber...I don't attempt to indiscriminately destroy shingle oaks but they are a cull tree that can be killed to favor better quality white and red oaks.

Locusts need to be treated unless you want them to come back because they will and with a vengeance!

Remember you have to have a plan for all of this...it's not about just whacking down trees and that's where the forester comes in. You also need to have an overall habitat plan in place...where do you need bedding areas and what low value trees can be hinged or girdled to create that cover?

Proceed with caution and learn all you can from the forester first, crop trees need to be marked and you must be able to identify white and red oaks even down to an inch DBH.

Just some things to think about while your anxiously and eagerly waiting to begin your habitat improvements....:)
 
Thanks Dbltree, I was wondering how that would effect the cost share. We have a plan in place and will definately wait until the forester visits, but we never had the intentions to go down and whack and stack trees when we are down there. I'm pretty familar with oak trees, although I don't know what DBH means... Thanks for the heads up on the locusts, will definately be stopping and buying chemicals tonight.
 
I don't know what DBH means
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Diameter at Breast Height...

Definition: Tree diameter at breast height. This has traditionally been the "sweet spot" on a tree where measurements are taken and a multitude of calculations are made to determine things like growth, volume, yield and forest potential.

Tree d.b.h. is outside bark diameter at breast height. Breast height is defined as 4.5 feet (1.37m) above the forest floor on the uphill side of the tree. For the purposes of determining breast height, the forest floor includes the duff layer that may be present, but does not include unincorporated woody debris that may rise above the ground line. :)
 
Great! Thanks again, I'm going to try to take quite a few pictures while down there and post them on here for you guys(if I can figure out how) We're pretty excited to get started on this as the whole farm is in desperate need of some TLC
 
mmatthes90 said:
Ok guys, I've read this thread a few times in the last few days, and had a few questions... We are heading to the farm this weekend with chainsaws to trim trails back and get rid of a few trees. There are loads of shagbark hickory's and locusts, my first question is, can we take out the hickory's this weekend before the forester comes down in a few weeks or would it be best to wait until he walks the property? There a few locusts in an open pasture area we are going to plant cedars in, will they require a chemical treatment even if we cut them completely down? and the last, I've read dbltree mention Shingle Oaks multiple times, I'm 100% certain I know what these are, what are the main reasons for harvesting these as I've read they do produce acorns? (well that's what my tree book said, but it also said Black Oak acorns are a valuable food source for wildlife) Thanks guys!
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I do not see a problem with you cutting down some locusts and hickories. As DT stated, make sure and treat the locust stumps or you will have a mess down the road with them.

The reason a lot of people hate shingle oaks is they grow like a weed....all over the place and they don't have much, if any timber value. I like having some around, but favor oaks such as: white, bur, swamp white, northern red and black oak over shingle oaks. Turkeys ate the crap out of the shingle oak acorns this winter on me and did not even touch the bean field so they do have value....at least in my eyes...but not a timber buyers eyes. ;)
 
mmatthes90 said:
Ok guys, I've read this thread a few times in the last few days, and had a few questions... We are heading to the farm this weekend with chainsaws to trim trails back and get rid of a few trees. There are loads of shagbark hickory's and locusts, my first question is, can we take out the hickory's this weekend before the forester comes down in a few weeks or would it be best to wait until he walks the property? There a few locusts in an open pasture area we are going to plant cedars in, will they require a chemical treatment even if we cut them completely down? and the last, I've read dbltree mention Shingle Oaks multiple times, I'm 100% certain I know what these are, what are the main reasons for harvesting these as I've read they do produce acorns? (well that's what my tree book said, but it also said Black Oak acorns are a valuable food source for wildlife) Thanks guys!
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If you are going to plant cedars in the pasture area, I'm assuming you want to create a bedding area there. If that is the case, I see no problem with leaving the locusts there. Are there cedars in the area now? If so, I'd just let the locusts and cedars grow naturally, possibly kill any existing grass vegetation in the area now to speed up the process. My ideal bedding area would be an equal mixture of cedars, locust, and shingle oaks. If you have unlimited resources, by all means plant the cedars, but if your goal is bedding habitat, I'm guessing there are other areas of your farm that you could better spend your resources and just let that area mature on it's own.
 
Well last weekend I safely and successfully completed my hinge cutting project in the bedding areas on our 80 (whew!). Next step is the TSI work on the rest of the timbered areas on the farm. I have a couple of gallons probably of 41% gly that I'm wanting to use up so here are my questions. First may sound dumb but am I ok to spray the gly on the girdles this time of year?? I'm assuming yes. Second question is, do I use straight 41% gly or do a 50/50 mix of gly and water?? The trees I'm going to be double girdling are going to be mainly some very large locust and hickory, and probably 2 dozen maple trees. I'll also be cutting down 50-100 basswood completely and will want to spray the stumps. These are areas where I don't want any browse, just solid travel corridors where the dominant species is swamp white and red oak but is being threatened by these other species.
 
letemgrow said:
Looks like some goodwork Paul!!!

Something else that helps, buy an extra bar and chain so you can take the saw off if it gets pinched and the put on the other bar/chain to free it.
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That is genious! I can't believe we didn't think of this... welll actually it doesn't surprise me. :rolleyes:
 
Sometimes we have to kill invasives in either our timber or native grass fields and basal bark spraying when small trees and shrubs are dormant can be a great way to kill these problem trees.

Garlon, Remedy, Relegate and Crossbow are a few that can be mixed with diesel fuel and sprayed on the lower 12-20" of the stem in late winter to kill these trees or shrubs.

I chose Relegate (a generic form of Remedy) and used Trail Lite 2000 dye which is made to use with diesel fuel in this situation. We mixed the dsl fuel and herbicide 3 parts dsl and 1 part herbicide.

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Our targets were nasty ole honey locusts that had invaded a new NWSG planting

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The dye is nasty stuff, so don't wear clothes you care about!

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Be sure to soak the bottom area until the poison runs down the side of the stem

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The dye is not a prerequisite but it does help to tell where you have been and avoid missing areas

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We'll check back this spring and see how successful we were at killing the locusts, hopefully we nailed them and when we burn the NWSG the remaining remnants will go up in smoke.

Until I (unknowingly) wiped my dye soaked glove across my nose and face and walked into the local diner for lunch....it was a quiet day... ;)
 
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How much is that Relegate going for? I have not found any generic Remedy in any local store I have checked and the real deal is pricey!! Although a 4-gallon mix will go a long ways in a back pack sprayer.

Can't wait to see how well the mix does this summer.
 
letemgrow said:
How much is that Relegate going for? I have not found any generic Remedy in any local store I have checked and the real deal is pricey!! Although a 4-gallon mix will go a long ways in a back pack sprayer.

Can't wait to see how well the mix does this summer.
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I ordered Relegate on Ebay Phil...$85 plus shipping of course

Relegate Herbicide

Phil noticed that the Remedy label says to just wet the surface while relegate says to "soak" it?? They are identical herbicides so my guess is that "soaking" is overkill but one could experiment and see what works best...;)
 
dbltree said:
used Trail Lite 2000 dye which is made to use with diesel fuel in this is situation...
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Paul, can the dye be used with any herbicide mix? I was thinking of mixing some of that with oust when I spray around some young conifers to kill the weeds, otherwise I wouldn't know which ones I sprayed or not. Is the dye harmful in any way if you get it on trees or whatever? Seems like the dye would work pretty good for what I was planning on doing, let me know what you think!

thanks

edit: maybe this would work better, sounds like the trail lite 2000 has to be used with oil based sprays, but the trail lite 264 can be used with just about anything?

http://www.thetownsendcorp.com/userfiles/file/TrailLite264.pdf
 
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whitetail fanatic said:
Paul, can the dye be used with any herbicide mix? I was thinking of mixing some of that with oust when I spray around some young conifers to kill the weeds, otherwise I wouldn't know which ones I sprayed or not. Is the dye harmful in any way if you get it on trees or whatever? Seems like the dye would work pretty good for what I was planning on doing, let me know what you think!

thanks

edit: maybe this would work better, sounds like the trail lite 2000 has to be used with oil based sprays, but the trail lite 264 can be used with just about anything?

http://www.thetownsendcorp.com/userfiles/file/TrailLite264.pdf
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The dye I mentioned is just for use with oil based sprays Wes, but they have other dyes for water based herbicides and it won't hurt trees at all, I use it all the time.:way:
 
neighbor

I'll open this question to dbltree or anyone:

I recently bought a different farm in Iowa. While hunting this past weekend, I was on the far west end when I noticed a ladder stand on the neighbors property. It was literally one foot from the fence. I am sure the whoever sits there has been shooting across the line as a nice trail goes right by the stand on my side of the fence.

Should I hinge cut and create a tangled mess in front the stand, block the trail so that the deer head north quite a ways from the his stand?

I will talk to him eventually, but I don't really like to tell him what to do, prefer to take steps that I can control.
 
Hardwood11 said:
I'll open this question to dbltree or anyone:

I recently bought a different farm in Iowa. While hunting this past weekend, I was on the far west end when I noticed a ladder stand on the neighbors property. It was literally one foot from the fence. I am sure the whoever sits there has been shooting across the line as a nice trail goes right by the stand on my side of the fence.

Should I hinge cut and create a tangled mess in front the stand, block the trail so that the deer head north quite a ways from the his stand?

I will talk to him eventually, but I don't really like to tell him what to do, prefer to take steps that I can control.
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I would talk to him and see what kind of guy he is first. One of the main purposes of hinge cutting and creating a "tangled mess" is to provide bedding cover and browse. So in essence, you would be shooting yourself in the foot if you ask me. JMO :way:
 
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dedgeez said:
I would talk to him and see what kind of guy he is first. One of the main purposes of hinge cutting and creating a "tangled mess" is to provide bedding cover and browse. So in essence, you would be shooting yourself in the foot if you ask me. JMO :way:
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I suppose that is true, I guess I meant a screen or blockade of somekind...I think I have an idea of how to do it. I'll talk to him first, but he has every right to have his stand there and he will know I am out of state owner so I guess I am thinking about making it difficult to shoot into the land and also make it less desirable for a deer to go his direction.

If it was an open field I would stack hay bales right next to the stand, saw that one time it was a perfect screen:D
 
I had the same scenario year's back. I bought the farm so I was the new guy. But- I had as much right now as he did. He had a stand RIGHT on my line (our line). I personally would have liked to hunt that area myself. SO.... I approached him and respectfully but firmly said "hey, I'd like to hunt in that XYZ bottom too.... What if we both agreed to pull out of there and EACH of us BOTH stays 100 yards off the fence?" I left it up to him. He actually agreed and I was pleasantly surprised. If he would have said no, I would have had no guilt putting a stand up in the exact same spot- on my side- since I told him I want to hunt there on my land too. In reality- I wouldn't have hunted it BUT with my stand there, maybe he would have avoided it? If the guy is not willing to be at all flexible and compromising, I absolutely would do all I could to screen & block it off. If you did hinge the heck out of it there- just make sure you do it in other areas too SO that area isn't some destination bedding spot. Again, if he's difficult, I'd dually hang a stand there too in addition to the block off. Maybe try the 100 yards apart for BOTH of you 1st and see how that works?
 
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