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Why not shoot the 3.5 8 pts?

T

TallTines

Member
I wanted to pose this question to you guys since many of you own and manage your own land.

Why not shoot an 8 pt when he is 3 1/2? Most qdm theories state to let the buck reach 4 1/2 before they should be harvested to see what they develop into.

The reason I am asking this is because one of the farms I hunt has started to get a lot of 8 pts where in 04'when I started to hunt it the mature deer were mainly 10 pts. The genetic makeup changed a little bit and now there are getting to be a lot of 3 1/2 8 pts and older on the farm.

Of course there are some nice 3 1/2 10's but they are definately out numbered by the 8 pts.

So why wouldn't I want to shoot the 3 1/2 8 pts before they reach maturity and get very hard to kill. Why not kill them when they are younger (easier to kill), and since I believe that it has been proven that 3 1/2 yr olds will do more breeding than there older counter part, why would you want them to breed more.
Wouldn't you want to make sure your 10 pts get to breed more does then the 8's.

I know of so many guys that have large chunks of land and they start to manage it, by letting all the bucks get to 4 1/2 before harvesting them. Next thing they know that big stud that was on their ground is on the neighbors because he kept getting pushed around by all the other mature less inferior horned deer that were allowed to reach maturity.


Of course this is tough to do in IA w/ only one bow tag for a non land owner. I know I am like everyone else. Why would I want to put my tag on a younger 8 pt just to improve the herd very little. I do strive for a big deer every year too. So it is very hard and such a catch 22 to me to actually manage a herd for trophy deer.

So I would like to hear your thoughts on this and how you guys would go about it.

I personally think the current QDM theories are micromanaged for southern deer where midwest deer are so much different on a micro management scale.
 
Great post. I have seen very few 3.5 year olds even challenge 4.5-5.5 year olds. Usually the 4.5-5.5 year olds have so much more body mass that the 3.5 year olds just turn and walk away. There are many things that I consider when deciding which deer need to be havested. I would rather have a 3.5 year old straight 8 point that has big brows, long tines and nice spread breed the does than a short tined, wide 10 point that is 4.5. You have to remember that the buck only contributes half of the genes thus the doe may be contributing 10 or 12 point genes with the 8 contributing long tines, mass, or beam length. I feel that tine length, beam length and mass are just as important as the number main frame points. That being said I would have no trouble with shooting 3.5 year old 8 points if you have a good stock of 10 point 3.5 year olds to do the breeding. Just remember many 3.5 year old 8 points add points once they hit 4.5. I think that having a good mineral program, year round high protein food and allowing the bucks to reach 4.5-5.5 will be the only way to see if the bucks are reaching their true potential. I usually loose more 3.5 year old bucks on the land I hunt than any other age class due to being pushed off by the one or two 4.5-5.5 year olds. This is kind of discouraging because many have great potential but if those bucks breed some of the neighbors does before being taken then the genes are still being passed. The main reason I usually don't harvest 3.5 year old 8 points is because I am holding out for a 4.5 year old or older. If you want to harvest a buck and help with management aspect then I would most definately shoot a 3.5 year old 8 point and in turn let a 3.5 year old 10 point live. If you can I would try to shoot the 8 point prior to the rut otherwise there is really no reason not to let him reach 4.5. The problem for land managers comes when guys shoot 3.5 year old 10's instead of the 8's just because they want to be able to tell their buddies they shot a 10. If your not managing the land or don't care about the management aspect then I guess it doesn't really matter. If you are trying to manage the land then it makes a big difference.
 
All this talk about 31/2 yr olds and 4 1/2 yr olds, goes completely over the head of us guys that only have small acreages. I have 40 acres surrounded by many neighbors that hunt. I see two or three 2 1/2 yr old bucks during the prime rut chase period. Last yr a 3 1/2 yr old 8 that I shot. I think most guys cannot be that choosey . It would be nice to have all those older buck choices, but with heavy competition, a 3 1/2 yr buck is quite mature.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> the doe may be contributing 10 or 12 point genes </div></div>

I thought that antler genetics were a sex linked trait? The doe would only have XX chromosomes where the buck has XY. To throw a fawn the doe contributes an X, the buck either an X or Y. I did ok in biology but it has been a long time. Anyone know this linkage for sure?

I'm not for shooting any buck that hasn't reached maturity and in Iowa at least I think that potential isn't seen until 4-6 years.
 
I know it is hard to determine the potential of a buck when he is 3.5. I too have seen some just explode into tremendous bucks. Which on the farm I hunt there are some huge 8 pts that I would be extremely proud to take but I would like to see some of those 10's reach full potential and stick around on the farm with out being driven of by a mature 8 or from the stress of other deer.

I just don't think that a farm can hold that many truly mature deer. The way i see it only a few are going to stick around in my area because of the habitat available and it is also what i have seen from my trail cams and scouting. Because of this I want to try to make sure that the best potential are the ones who stick around.

Iowaqdm I too haven't seen many 3.5 push around an older class deer but them 3.5 are like college kids and can go get em all night long while those mature bucks want to be in bed by 10:00 if you know what i mean. The 3.5's just go harder and w/ plenty of does around it's not hard to find them.

I don't know the buck to doe ratio in the area i hunt but i can tell it's actually not that bad. Maybe 3-1. I try to shoot plenty of does off it every year and overall I would like to keep the deer numbers down.

I just think when you have to many deer on a farm you will run off alot of your mature bucks because of stress from other deer. But like I said earlier by putting hunting pressure you will run off alot of those deer anyway. The catch 22
 
Everything we are talking about is "trophy management" theories, not "QDM" theories. QDM does not recommend passing on 3 1/2 year olds. While a successful QDM area will yield more trophy bucks, it is not trophy buck management.

As for trophy management and culling that 3 1/2 year old that you may not like in the local gene pool, whatever it is that you don't like about him is getting passed on to the offspring of every doe he breeds. Sure, the doe is 1/2 of the genetic makeup of the offspring but instead of saying the doe is improving the potential of the buck's offspring being a trophy deer, I will say the buck could be DECREASING the chances of the doe's offspring being a trophy deer. Same as with livestock, or race horses, or hunting dogs, if managed, by not using the average or below average sire, the sire can pass on the good genes to more offspring than the dam.

However, in areas such as Iowa, it is hard to manage a deer herd like this. I have had one buck in the past few years that I would have considered a cull buck. Unless very late in the season where I was willing to give up my one tag for the purpose of gene pool management, that one tag is getting saved for another buck. Sad, but I am actually hurting the gene pool because I am tagging the buck that has the genetics I like and passing the buck I don't. I suppose a group of shotgun hunters with a common goal and the ability to share tags has the best chance to both trophy hunt and cull deer to manage the herd.
 
I wonder how many guys can actually impact the area they hunt. I can't one tag.....thousands of acres.

Here's why I won't take the 3 1/2 yr old 8.
#1- Chances are....he's not big enough antler wise. If he's over 150 as an 8....he should look out.
#2- He's easier. 3 1/2....easier to kill, less of a challenge. Kind of like tring to beat the person playing his first game of kaiser or the old ukranian woman who knows evry card that has been played and who played them.
 
Your right 150 class maybe I am talking more about trophy management. But i believe that trophy management will also yield a quality deer herd if done right at the same time.

The not wanting to put your tag on a cull buck is certainly a problem when trying to grow trophy and quality deer here in IA and probably why texans and other southern states might be able to do it easier w/ more tags to put out.

Like I said earlier I know of quite a few guys who have large prime chunks of land w/ food plots, hardly any pressure, and lots of deer yet it seems they can't grow or keep that big boy on their farm.

How do you change that?

I believe you would have to bring the overall deer numbers down, cull out the inferior deer(even 3.5 yr olds), and keep the food source plentiful at the same time. Obviously easier said than done.

Am I wrong? What else would i be missing here in IA.

I know many guys who like to keep the deer numbers high because they think of there ground like a sanctuary. We all know what comes out of these sometimes.

Sorry for keeping on rambling but i am just interested in how you guys would basically manage say a 500 acre farm to grow trophy deer and a quality herd at the same time.
 
My thoughts are yes, you must keep your numbers low enough to minimize breeding stress and maximize nutrition to keep and grow mature bucks on your property. Most importantly you must have areas of seclusion that mature bucks prefer. This can be achieved with varied bedding habitats such as switchgrass, young tree plantings and isolated areas of thick cover created from tsi, secluded "islands" etc. I think of mature bucks as grouchy old men that want to be left alone. If they only have open timber to bed in any deer that walks by will socialize with it. I beleive mature bucks will not tolerate this and this is what drives them from certain areas and makes other areas big buck spots. I beleive they can tolerate high population properties given they have this isolated "bedroom". Shooting one 8 point a year to try change your genetics is a waste of time in my book. Studies have shown this is next to impossible in a free ranging herd. I would concentrate on shooting mature bucks whatever that means to you and your goals, shooting enough does to manage your population to provide enough natural forages and planted forages to minimize nutritional, and social stress. If taking large quanities of does are in order designate areas for this, and do as much damage as you can per sit. On smaller properties this will be difficult as stated previously you will run deer off. Scent tight blinds and bow hunting would be the best for this. On most areas of Iowa 500 acres should be a very productive and manageable property. Not all areas of Iowa will produce the same results but given time to mature most areas of Iowa will produce great results.
 
What is the percentage of people on this site that have large parcels to hunt and can be picky on what they shoot? How many people have less acreage, and are tickled to see a 3 1/2 yr old buck? Just curious. If I passed on these type of bucks, I dare say I would never shoot a buck. Maybe that is a good thing though?
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pharmer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> the doe may be contributing 10 or 12 point genes </div></div>

I thought that antler genetics were a sex linked trait? The doe would only have XX chromosomes where the buck has XY. To throw a fawn the doe contributes an X, the buck either an X or Y. I did ok in biology but it has been a long time. Anyone know this linkage for sure? </div></div>

See number 6.

"W.A. Armstrong published an excellent article titled The Management of Spike Bucks in the spring of 1994 issue of Making Tracts for Texas Wildlife in which 10 conclusions based on the deer research at the Kerr Wildlife Management Area were presented. The title could have been 'The Management of Whitetail Deer'. These conclusions are based on data from 20 years of research records from more than 1,600 total deer, 1,103 sets of antlers from 384 different deer and include the following:

1. Antler development is genetically based. Not all deer have the same genetic potential.
2. Nutrition does affect antler growth.
3. Early or late birth does not affect antler development if deer receive adequate nutrition.
4. The majority of yearling spike bucks will produce smaller and fewer points in following years than will fork-antlered yearlings.
5. You can improve a herd by selectively removing inferior antlered deer and allowing the deer with good antlers to breed.
6. Does provide half of the genetic potential for antler development.
7. Average yearling bucks on good range should have six points.
8. Even when most bucks are spikes, removing them will not endanger the breeding potential.
9. Antler development improves with age up to a point.
10. The best time to manage for genetic improvement is during periods of nutritional stress."

Above info taken from Texas Parks and Wildlife Department web site.


On another note. This is why I was against the DNR pushing for such a mass reduction in the doe herd in such a short time. Guys shooting over half or more of the mature does in a single year on a farm can drastically change the deer genetics. I would argue this is what probably caused the change from predominately 10 points to 8 points that TallTines is seeing. Just remember when harvesting does from where you hunt that the older does come into estrus first. The dominate bucks usually breed those older does because there are fewer older class does and the dominate bucks usually will have time to get those does bred. There are usually more younger does that need to be bred and thus will get bred by whatever buck is available at the time. I have read that a dominate buck can breed 8-10 does in a year. Thus, I never shoot any of the older does after the rut has started. I try to shoot a couple older does pre-rut and then will shoot a few younger does after the rut has begun. That way I increase the odds of the dominate bucks genes being passed on.

It doesn't matter if you hunt on 40 acres or 4000 the principles are the same. You can grow monster bucks on forty acres if you have the right habitat and food. The trouble is too many hunters believe they can't manage small parcels and that if they don't kill that 3.5 year old someone else will. This may be true but if you kill him there is a 0% chance that he will see 4.5. Plus you have to remember that the buck has made it thru two seasons with antlers so why is there no chance he can make it another year. What buck you decide to harvest is a personal choice but you really wont have a mature buck until they get 4.5 or older IMO. If you take that deer at 3.5 you will never know the bucks true potential. Like I posted before there is nothing wrong with harvesting 3.5 year old 8 points if you have better bucks to do the breeding.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Early or late birth does not affect antler development if deer receive adequate nutrition.
</div></div>

while that may well be true in the south I've seen more than enough info in the QDMA magazine (or a management article on a study of birth dates in another deer mag) to be pretty comfortable saying in northern climates a late born buck fawn is behind his early born peers in antler development basically his whole life.

Just one more reason to shoot does and get that sex ratio in line so late births are minimized.

In my opinion on small properties the best you can do (as far as harvest stratagies are concerned) is harvest does and hold out for a deer you'll be happy to shoulder mount and hang wherever your wife'll let you. If that means not taking a buck most years so be it. This is my 12th season deer hunting, mostly just during early muzzy season and I have 2 bucks on the wall and have not shot ANY other antlered bucks. (Lots of does) Wouldn't have it any other way.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TallTines</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Like I said earlier I know of quite a few guys who have large prime chunks of land w/ food plots, hardly any pressure, and lots of deer yet it seems they can't grow or keep that big boy on their farm.

I know many guys who like to keep the deer numbers high because they think of there ground like a sanctuary. We all know what comes out of these sometimes.

Sorry for keeping on rambling but i am just interested in how you guys would basically manage say a 500 acre farm to grow trophy deer and a quality herd at the same time.
</div></div>

Maybe what you think is a prime chunk really isn't one. There are many things that can keep a trophy buck on your property and many that can make him want to leave. What you have to remember is there are a lot of people managing their land with food plots and habitat improvement. The bucks may be leaving because the neighbors have a more desireable habitat, food sources or deer density. You might as well PM me an aerial photo of this "hypothetical" 500 acre tract so I can make some "hypothetical" suggestions. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
 
You are right. Letting a younger buck pass is the first step. He might survive. With all the crazies around my land though I doubt it. In the 3 yrs I have hunted my land I have seen nothing bigger. One reason I believe is my height. Am handicapped. Cannot go 20 ft up. I sweat bad. Even with all the scent clothes, and sprays. Difficult to stay dry, walking in. If I go yrs without shooting a buck guess no big deal. Your age has something to do with it too. Young guys have many potential yrs to hunt. Older guys,Me included,,not that many thrills hunting left.
 
Lone ranger, one of those 2 bucks was shot from the ground, in the right situations a stand isn't necessary. Take your time walking in and carry in the outer layer or 2 so you're not wearing all of it when walking. No rush. And if you're happy with a certain buck, shoot it, I'm sure not going to complain if you're happy. I just can't stand it when people use the "neighbors'll shoot it anyway" excuse to shoot a small buck then they throw the antlers in the corner of the garage. 100% chance he'll never get any bigger if he's dead.
 
I do carry in my clothes, walk in half naked,,still sweat. I sweat in Jan. In the end, "Antlers", are just bony protrusions growing out of an animal's head. To keep the herd in balance, females have to be kept in check, and some males need to become mature. The farther you are off the ground,the more quiet property you have around, the less you smell,,the better.
 
[/quote]

Maybe what you think is a prime chunk really isn't one. There are many things that can keep a trophy buck on your property and many that can make him want to leave. What you have to remember is there are a lot of people managing their land with food plots and habitat improvement. The bucks may be leaving because the neighbors have a more desireable habitat, food sources or deer density. You might as well PM me an aerial photo of this "hypothetical" 500 acre tract so I can make some "hypothetical" suggestions. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/quote]

Unfortunately I don't have 500 acres to myself. i know I do w/ a bunch of land combined.

To reply to your quote above the thing is I know that alot of these guys had prime land before w/ some giants shot off it. I almost believe w/ all the food plots, low pressure which suck all the deer in has hurt their chances of killing that giant because of the stress of to many deer. Like CentralIowa said and I agree that them old deer are like "old grumpy men" or what I used to compare them too, "old labs". They just like to do their thing and be left alone.

I like where this has been going guys and l appreciate all your comments on the subject.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In the end, "Antlers", are just bony protrusions growing out of an animal's head. </div></div>

Ah, yes but even cavemen didn't draw pictures of little bucks.....




/forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif
 
Some bucks tolerate a high deer density better than others. I have found that a bucks tolerance varies throughout the year. During the rut they don't handle the high density well and will move off or push does off into seclusion. During the late season they will actually embrace/tolerate the high deer density for safty and will concentrate on the best food source available. In the spring and summer they are in bachelor groups.

TallTines, how long ago were these prime tracts producing these bucks? What do these tracts consist of as far as habitat and food sources.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IA ML'r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Early or late birth does not affect antler development if deer receive adequate nutrition.
</div></div>
while that may well be true in the south I've seen more than enough info in the QDMA magazine (or a management article on a study of birth dates in another deer mag) to be pretty comfortable saying in northern climates a late born buck fawn is behind his early born peers in antler development basically his whole life.

Just one more reason to shoot does and get that sex ratio in line so late births are minimized.</div></div>

I haven't seen any research conducted in northern climates on this subject. I can say that I watched buck on a friends farm several years ago that was a runt of a buck. He had very short legs and a short nose. He was easy to identify. We watched him from 6 months to 4.5 years old. The buck still had faint spots going into the end of October the first year so I'm sure he was a born late. At 1.5 he was a little 5 point. At 2.5 he was a 7 point. At 3.5 he was a 130 class 8 point. At 4.5 he was a 13 point with a 10" split droptine, 3 big brows and lots of mass. So I don't know if he was delayed but at 4.5 I wasn't going to give him a pass. I have video of him in velvet and hard horn but I'm not computer savy so I don't know how to post a picture off of the video. He was taken at age 4.5 by a neighbor. It was the biggest buck that the neighbor had ever taken. After the neighbor shot that deer he started to believe in "trophy management" which we had been practicing for years. We had tried multiple times to get him to implement similiar practices with no luck. Now he plants food plots and I am not aware of him taking a buck since that one due to wanting to take another buck as big or bigger. Before that harvest the neighbor and his friends shotgun hunted the ground hard and shot anything with horns. Sometimes a trophy buck leaving your property and being harvested by a neighbor can ultimately benefit your overall goals/management plan.
 
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