Working The System.....

[Stump Shooter]

Re: RE : working the system.....

Just from reading some of the posts on page 2 of this thread got me thinking a little bit. G6 and bowmaker..don't take what I'm going to say as a slam or don't take it personal. They are just my thoughts.

You guys want every single hunter to conform to YOUR way of hunting and YOUR outlook on it. You want everyone to pass up little bucks and only shoot monsters and when party hunting ONLY to shoot one monster and that's it for bucks. To say that it's selfish for guys to shoot more than one buck, I believe is selfish on your part to say it. Fact is, not EVERYONE hunts like you do nor do they even want to. A tag is a tag and whoever bought that tag has every right to fill it how they see fit. As long as it's within the guidlines set forth by the DNR..not by you. Whether it's tagging an animal they shot or one that someone in their group shot. I'm sorry to say, but neither of you have any right telling Joe Blow down the street how to hunt and how or how not to fill their tag. Their hard earned money bought that tag and they are hunting their land, not yours. The day you buy the tag and allow them to hunt on your property, is the day you can dictate or have the right to say what they shoot. I apologize for maybe being harsh, but the examples I gave are EXACTLY what's wrong with hunting today. The only reason why we are talking about this is because they are bucks. You guys talk about taking pride in what you shoot and not being SELFISH. Well let's say that same group of 10 goes out and they have 15 doe tags. Let's say 3 guys shoot all 15 doe. Isn't that pure killing and not taking pride in what you shot and making others tag those animals???? Or are you going to say that's good herd management?? Taking pride in a harvest shouldn't be about a buck or a doe...it should be about the memories, stories and the friendships associated with hunting.

Sorry for the long winded response.

Xtec

 

[bowtine]

Re: RE : working the system.....

Oh G6, it is easy for you to say something like that! I see what you killed this year already. I would probably just give up hunting bucks if I harvested something like that this year too!!! lol

just trying to lighten everyone up alittle.

 

[G6]

Re: RE : working the system.....

Xtec I don't see where either one of us said anyone had to hunt like we do, we stated our opinion of the way some people hunt and abuse the doe tags. I don't think things will be the same next year as far as party hunting on those doe tags, at least I hope not. I hope that they will only be able to use them to hunt a doe only like was meant. As far as party hunting I have nothing against it because I used to do it a long time ago for a couple years. I understand it's a gathering of friends and family for a good time once a year and liked that part of it. It usually ended there for me so I went the solo route bowhunting and muzzleloader. We find other times to get together when we're fininshed hunting for the day. I'd say we can agree to disagree on some aspects of deer hunting but will end up on the same side after all is said and done ...... right?

 

[G6]

Re: RE : working the system.....

[ QUOTE ]
Oh G6, it is easy for you to say something like that! I see what you killed this year already. I would probably just give up hunting bucks if I harvested something like that this year too!!! lol

just trying to lighten everyone up alittle.

[/ QUOTE ] Who said I was done hunting bucks this year? I still have a late muzzleloader license that has a big bucks name on it I just don't know his name yet.

BTW nice buck in your avatar.

 

[iowaqdm]

Re: RE : working the system.....

Xtec,

Well.....I don't really know where to begin...and for fear of posting the absolute longest post in IowaWhitetail history...I will try to keep this fairly short. Nothing you said in your post wasn't true, however that doesn't make it right. If you really believe all the things you said, than you obviously don't get it. Get what you may ask? Quality Deer Management. QDM doesn't say you can't be proud of a young buck that you harvest, that you can't have fun or hunt how you want to. With that being said you need to realize that we (all hunter's) have a resonsibility to manage the herd. Which we are not having much luck doing for many reasons. Therefore, we as hunter's have a resonsibilty to call on all other hunters to do their part and harvest more does. You want to talk about being selfish! Let me tell you this FACT...Not doing your part to manage the herd and pushing the responsibility onto other hunters is the most selfish act possible. Meanwhile, you do this and have the balls to say that just because someone used their "HARD EARNED MONEY" (Like none of the other guys on this site work hard!)to buy their tag or that they hunt their own land. Just so you can justify taking 15 guys and surrounding a quarter section of land with every possible escape route blocked. Then send someone to push the the deer out to the guys posting...just so you can wrap your hands around a 1.5 old 6 point that 3 other guy pumped slugs into while tring to escape. Ultimately kill fifteen 1.5-3.5 year old bucks. Then claim that a guy should be proud of this?. Then say that you party hunt for the memories, stories, and friendships associated with hunting. What stories? Would that be a story like...Well after Jim dropped me off, I got next to the telephone pole, you know the one by the field entrance, no no the one that the deer also ran thru last year trying to get over on Bob's land. Well once I got behind the pole not five minutes later I heard 11 shots coming for the direction of the drivers, I then had 25 does come running by with two bucks...Well I got the first 6 pointer and hit the second 4 pointer buck in the back leg. Man, I couldn't believe it...I led him at least 6 feet but he was running hard at 80 yards. Well after we loaded the 6 point up we drove around the next section and saw the 4 point buck I hit standing out in this fenceline, so we got everyone in position again and Fred pushed him by me. I shot him again two more times. You got to see these pictures!

Let me explain a little about QDM to you. While it may be true we want younger bucks to walk and more does harvested, it's for a good reason...to balance numbers and improve the herds genetics...not for our wall. The result is the strongest, healthiest and best possible genetics are passed on to ensure the healthiest bucks, does and fawns in the future. Trophy bucks are the just the results of good herd management due to their age class. In any of the posts on this site have you seen anyone say we need to pass up more mature bucks? That way we can produce more 200 inch deer. I have never seen a post like that! It is usually recommended to pass 3.5 year olds and younger. That is because between 4.5-6.5 the bucks are in their prime, the best physical condition for breeding. That ensures only the best genetics are passed reguardless of antler size or number of points. You need to shoot does to keep sex ratios close to ensure that only mature bucks do the breeding. You also have to continually shoot does as the herd evolves because a doe with inferior genes passes on those traits to her offspring. Even with perfect conditions the offspring can only reach their set genetic potential (which may be why I'm having to write this post). Just kidding.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion reguardless of wether it's right or wrong. I just feel that there is enough QDM practiced across the country with amazing results to prove that it works. Don't take what I am writing personal or as a slam because too many hunters don't understand their role as a managers, believe as you do. (Let someone else worry about shooting the does, I'll shoot the bucks.) Just because someone can legally party hunt and shoot as many bucks as their party has tags for doesn't mean it's the right thing to do! I don't know one person who gets a kick out of shooting doe after doe. We do it because it is the right thing to do for the herd. Well, I guess I know one guy who likes putting a few flattops on the ground.

 

[dbltree]

Re: RE : working the system.....

Bravo iowaqdm!!! It gives me hope that at least some have even a remote understanding of what the word "ethics" means....regardless of what is "legal"
Some years ago Montana had no speed limit...trusting drivers to do what was prudent and safe...of course it didn't work...and the speed limits were reinstated. The same is going to happen here in regards to our hunting laws...and not a moment to soon!
The state is not overly concerned about protecting bucks but they are very concerned about taking more does so they have little choice but to impose restrictions that will put more heat on antlerless and less on antlered deer...which will be at least a step in the right direction.
BTW...they used to run buffalo off from cliffs to harvest large quantities...something that would leave most aghast today...just as party hunting (a.k.a..."party killing") sickens many of us now.

 

[Stump Shooter]

Re: RE : working the system.....

Iowaqdm....no worries bud. I take nothing off of internet boards personally. EVER! As long as someone keeps my wife and family out of it, I'm cool.

I appreciate you trying to explain QDM to me, but I understood it years ago and way before it became a popular hunting term and management tool. Please go back and look at other's posts. I'm not the 1st person to bring up the whole selfish terminology thing. I just ran with it. Nor did I ever say anything to the fact of putting 15 guys around a wood lot, running it and shooting every brown hide you see. Where you came up with that...not quite sure.

I have no idea how many doe tags one can get in Iowa, but from the sounds of it...if EVERY hunter hasn't shot at least 2-3 doe so far in this hunting season, it's a disservice to your herd and to your fellow hunter. With as many doe as you guys take about, that should be an easy thing to do. Right? How many have shot 2-3 or more doe this year? Iowa isn't the only state with doe becoming an issue and hunters not shooting enough of them. Try having your main gun hunt smack dab in the middle of the rut and then you'll see how many little bucks get shot and how many doe just pass by.

What we truely have to look at is...those who "take advantage" of this doe tag thing with party hunting, is it more of an isolated or a small majority instance or is it widespread across the whole state?

On a side note, not all party hunters are run and gun hunters. I party hunt here with 4 others and we sit all morning..meet for lunch at some point and then sit until dark. There are other forms of party hunting...FYI. I'm not against QDM and practice it myself, but I just see it as a very slippery slope when some want to dictate what others shoot on a consistant basis and start to bring the terms like ethics and being selfish even when being legal. The day a state manages it's herd that way is a sad day. Commercialization of hunting is becoming an issue and I fear that it's just not going to get any better. Hunting videos, hunting shows, leasing land, outfitters fuels all of it. It's big business. In essence, that's kind of why I'm taking a devils advocate position on this. I'm not worried about my hunting opportunities, rather my kids and their kids. They are going to have to win the lottery before they ever think about possibly going on an out of state hunt if that's what they would like to do. What brings all this on? Bucks..Big Bucks.

Xtec

 

[bowtine]

Re: RE : working the system.....

The good news is that we all care enough about hunting and outdoors that we can debate things like this. I think that says something good about us all! Everyone hunt safe, have fun, and good luck to all the rest of the season!!!!

And G6, if you top that buck in you avatar, Well.......... expect me as your new hunting buddy!!!

good luck late muzz, should be a good one!

 

[Liv4Rut]

Re: RE : working the system.....

People can say what they want about QDM and I practice it, but ultimately I think that if every person in this state practiced it, the hunting would suck if that makes sense at all. My main reason is, it is hard enough to find a place to hunt now. Basically what I am saying is the more people care about what is roaming around their land the less chance a person like myself will be able to hunt it. There still is alot of opportunity to get on some prime hunting ground where you may be able to hunt bow and late season and leave shotgun season for their family or friends. If everyone cared about QDM Iowa would suck, it pretty much does now. Heck you can't even hunt anywhere and tell somebody you saw a big one, next thing you know 2-3 new guys are hunting your area. From now on I will only have 2 buddies that I can trust to tell anything to, to the rest all I saw was a 47 inch 6 point and a doe. I know people sure get worked up about who shoots what and where,in fact some friends won't even talk to their buddies over deer, deer aren't sacred to me. It's about having fun, and if im not seeing the bucks that I want to shoot, I will simply get off my butt and find them somewhere else. Have a good late season guys!!

 

[Blaster]

Re: RE : working the system.....

iowaqdm
I know a guy down in south Iowa that says he's all about QDM. He plants his crops, he gets all the land he can (all for him self of corse!) And he olny hunts bow and late muzz! This same guy has shot 4 bucks a year the last 3 years! You know how many of these bucks he has hung on the wall? 2 out of the 12 bucks in three years are wall hangers! This same guy also hates gun hunters. I think this doe tag thing is way over blown. If you want to police something go after all those guys chasing deer with trucks and shooting there pistols out the window!

 

[Stump Shooter]

Re: RE : working the system.....

Thankyou LIV4RUT! Exactly what I was getting at. The result of QDM is a double edged sword.

[ QUOTE ]
Commercialization of hunting is becoming an issue and I fear that it's just not going to get any better. Hunting videos, hunting shows, leasing land, outfitters fuels all of it. It's big business. In essence, that's kind of why I'm taking a devils advocate position on this. I'm not worried about my hunting opportunities, rather my kids and their kids. They are going to have to win the lottery before they ever think about possibly going on an out of state hunt if that's what they would like to do. What brings all this on? Bucks..Big Bucks.


[/ QUOTE ]

To add.... Take a look at Buffalo County. I've heard that leases are going from as high as $20-$40 an acre and 4-5 day hunts are going for as high as $2-2500. QDM at it's finest right there. Insane prices all for the "chance" at shooting a deer for gosh sakes.

 

[Blaster]

Re: RE : working the system.....

Xtec,

Happy B-Day!!!

 

[image1404]

Re: RE : working the system.....

Ban party hunting and those dang weekend warriors, and you do away with the harvesting of more does than all of us could kill if we each shot 30. QDM, seriously that was invented for ink,paper,and Wisconsin.... You guys are so funny, (My way is the best way and that's that!) Hey True Talker you and sidewinder got 1 yote last week?

 

[G6]

Re: RE : working the system.....

[ QUOTE ]

And G6, if you top that buck in you avatar, Well.......... expect me as your new hunting buddy!!!

good luck late muzz, should be a good one!

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I'll top that one but I'll try. There aren't any big bucks where we hunt, they come from the neighbors place.

Saw a nice one on the way home from work at noon, too bad it wasn't late season already.

 

[bowtine]

Re: RE : working the system.....

Yeah Thunder Ridge! He was in the radar section. could have used your help too.

I'm sure we'll see ya soon.

 

[jdavis]

Re: RE : working the system.....

Yep- It's about big bucks. If not go to Georgia to hunt deer. QDM absolutly helps the deer heard in Iowa. If not why does the Wapello county produce huge mature bucks....It's not the water they drink! As far as party hunting and doe tags go. I think it is a shame non-res. use doe only tags to harvest bucks. Is it legal, yes but there are many who abuse and buy tags from residents to put on them on a buck. Iowa does not allow a non res hunter to receive a tag two years in a row or it is rare. This to me keeps the anticipation high to come back and hunt Iowa for the oppertunity to harvest a mature whitetail. It also keeps our deer heard more healthy. If you think it is hard to find a place to hunt now, if the DNR opens non res. land owners up for instate tags you can forget it. The land prices will skyrocket and the non-res would buy the land up faster than we could think. I have a friend in the south that told me if they allow this he and his friends will be up the next day with check books in hand. Remember it's all about the big bucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[image1404]

Re: RE : working the system.....

Very contradicting. If big bucks bring big $$$ then why grow big bucks? If there are no big bucks on your land no one will want to buy it... right?


BTW the majority of Iowa's trophy book whitetails were killed long before QDM was even a thought in anyones head. NO it ain't the water it's the soil....

 

[Ghost]

Re: RE : working the system.....

[ QUOTE ]
Ghost, I am a firm believer in " We dont make the laws but should abide by them". Some people just are never happy and always worried about the other guy. As long as that guy is legal and loves the outdoors WHO CARES? As for myself I have put 3 does in the freezer before a buck and Have taken an early muzzleloader buck in a special area zone that is not in the statewide quota so this alows a bow buck and Late muzzleloader buck tag and a doe tag for shotgun 1. The rules need to be more cut and dry I agree but you make it sound like a guy like myself who has spent 200 hours this year in the woods with an obsession for the outdoors, deer meat, and big horns and kills four bucks is unethical? Who does'nt like to see and be able to kill a booner when given the chance? "HUNT EM IF YOU CAN!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Nick,...congrats on your successful season and good luck during late muzzleloader!

The point I was trying to make with this post was that the IDNR deer hunting regulations need to be "cleaned up and simplified."

And for the record, I'm a very happy person as both of my children shot their first deer this year,...mature does.

 

[iowaqdm]

Re: RE : working the system.....

Xtec,

I know you were just trying to relay the point that we shouldn't dictate to others what to shoot. Unfortunately your post just pushed me over the edge that day...not because of your post necessarily...but because I had talked to 4 different guys that day from different "parties" who had hunted the previous weekend. All shot only bucks, and the last group of the four, had 19 guys in it. That group shot 19 bucks with one deer that was probably 4.5. The rest were 1.5-3.5. Can anyone tell me how you keep track of where 18 of your friends and family are when making a push with that many people and all that shooting? I have shotgun hunted myself, but it was several years ago and never with more than two others. I mostly stand hunted and let everyone else push the deer to me. Xtec, I didn't mean to imply that you surrounded woodlots! Just trying to paint a picture so to speak of what I think of when I hear "party hunting". I still stand by my opinion that it is everyones responsibility to help manage the herd and that means shooting a doe instead of a 1.5 year old buck. If some think that is dictating what to shoot than so be it. Anyway, a weekend of pheasant/quail hunting with my dad and watching my two brittneys work gave me some time to relax. All is cool now. At least for a day or two!

Xtec, I enjoy reading your posts and hearing your opinion, however I don't normally take a Minnesotan's opinion very seriously!

(Go Hawks!!!) On the subject of this post. I talked to a guy today that said some friends of his were hunting in the Loess Hills and took several bucks. He also mentioned that one guy who shot 4 bucks opening day was from California and had flown in for the weekend to hunt. The guy then mentioned that he came every year. My response was "He gets drawn every year?" The guys response "No. He keeps a post office box here so he has an address in Iowa. He usually buys 2-3 resident licenses". I wanted to ask what the guys name was so I could turn him in, but by the way the guy was talking, I didn't think he knew who he was. On a different point, I read a most of the posts on this sight and it seems like when someone says QDM, most think that it means (QDM=managing for trophy bucks). While bigger bucks are the result of QDM. I view QDM as balancing both the sex ratios and age structure of the herd (both bucks and does). Not just trying to produce big bucks. Does anyone else get this impression?

 

[dbltree]

Re: RE : working the system.....

[ QUOTE ]
it seems like when someone says QDM, most think that it means (QDM=managing for trophy bucks). While bigger bucks are the result of QDM. I view QDM as balancing both the sex ratios and age structure of the herd (both bucks and does). Not just trying to produce big bucks. Does anyone else get this impression?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly...no one wants to be forced I know, but ending up with a more balanced deer herd and more mature bucks...seems like a "win win" for all of us.
It is hard, many guys hate going back to work and telling their buddies...I only got a doe. At the same time I can't see going in and bragging that another guy killed a buck for me....
Hopefully some groups will start to decide amongst themselves to concentrate on antlerless and set their own personal "size limit" for antlered...even if each group has a different attitude about what bucks to pass up...it would sure be a start in the right direction.